I also have one and agree that it measures very well. I confess, though, that I mostly set primer depth by eye, which is probably stupid. But the CPS is very good at setting it in small increments.
- Thread starter orkan
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My only hang up on getting the CPS is that there are 2 measurements that we are concerned with and as far as I know it can only seat primers off the case head, which still leaves the relationship of the bottom of the primer to the pocket unknown, which doesn't do anything different then the primer tool I'm currently using. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
I have tried to measure the pocket of every case, taken the deepest measurement and tried to uniform them all to that measurement but like I said, it's beyond annoying to do this.
I really should just load up 10 rds of doing it that way and then 10 rds of doing nothing to the pockets and just seating primers to the same measurement below flush, shoot both groups and record the accuracy and extreme spread.
I admit to not being a good enough shooter to shoot the difference between primer depth. I use it because of the combination of quality and speed.
I do think your analysis of the unknowns is correct, though.
You're selling yourself short. Consistent ignition affects your extreme spread velocity which will affect your impacts down range enough for any serious shooter to see a difference.
For the hunter that shoots his rifle twice a year with just factory ammo, well that's a different story all together but I know you're not that guy.
@orkan is the man.
It took me all my change to be able to afford the CPS but let me tell you that this tool changed my general appreciation of reloading and many other things.
I cannot wait to be able to save enought money to get my hand on the Primwhere!
It took me all my change to be able to afford the CPS but let me tell you that this tool changed my general appreciation of reloading and many other things.
I cannot wait to be able to save enought money to get my hand on the Primwhere!
Went shooting today with a pair of 6-BRs.
Didn't shoot the 6.5 Manbun because my Lapua brass uses LR primers.
The LRP suck because my junky Lee bench primer broke on the tabs that keep the shell holder in place.
No surprise there.
Ain't going to prime them by hand when I can load SRP in a BR case.
No more cheap tools for me.
Didn't shoot the 6.5 Manbun because my Lapua brass uses LR primers.
The LRP suck because my junky Lee bench primer broke on the tabs that keep the shell holder in place.
No surprise there.
Ain't going to prime them by hand when I can load SRP in a BR case.
No more cheap tools for me.
The more I think about this the more I feel like the most important measurement is the bottom of the primer in relation to the primer pocket. Getting this consistent every time should mean more than the measurement of the primer below the case head which is the term "below flush" we most often hear about.
If the firing pin contacts and moves the primer consistently every time, ignition should be more consistent as well, does the .001-.002 of difference in travel the firing pin makes before contacting it really matter? Or does the firing pin spring rate affect the velocity of the pin contacting the primer if the travel is not consistent?
Why am I thinking about this shit?
If the firing pin contacts and moves the primer consistently every time, ignition should be more consistent as well, does the .001-.002 of difference in travel the firing pin makes before contacting it really matter? Or does the firing pin spring rate affect the velocity of the pin contacting the primer if the travel is not consistent?
Why am I thinking about this shit?
I’d strongly recommend people start shooting, instead of just thinking about it.
If I didn’t have thousands of rounds already tested and validated all of this… I wouldn’t be sharing it.
If I didn’t have thousands of rounds already tested and validated all of this… I wouldn’t be sharing it.
I clicked the link thinking I'd watch a few minutes and lose interest. I watched the entire video. With interest.
Question though. If not using your primer seating tool, which one? I think I can guess based on your design. And I'm wondering if it gave you the initial inspiration for your design.
Question though. If not using your primer seating tool, which one? I think I can guess based on your design. And I'm wondering if it gave you the initial inspiration for your design.
I can honestly say no priming tool gave me inspiration. An arbor bullet seating press did.
Another question. If the CPS indexes off the case head and you're setting the depth one time to seat primers, how does it take into account differences in primer pocket depth? Asking because I'm interested in buying it but I want to know it's going to make my life easier first
As I said in the video… the uniformity between the rim and pocket hold quite well. Therefore taking linear measurements from the base is fine, because the tool seats uniformly.
Performing the seating depth test, shows you the most uniform placement.
It’s quite simple… when the shooting is done.
Performing the seating depth test, shows you the most uniform placement.
It’s quite simple… when the shooting is done.
I think it is indexing off of the extractor groove/top of the rim, but the question stands which is what is the variance of that measurement in "good" brass. I would bet it is well under .001.
All I buy is Lapua and I've measured .001-.002 difference in pocket depth.
With what though?
The Accuracy One primer depth gauge
Also shared in the video. lol
They usually measure .127-.129 for the lots of 300 Norma cases I have.
You can mic the case rims. You can measure the pockets. You can very delicately remove raised headstamp variance with abrasive or machining.
This confirms ALL dimensions. This is the real way to think about all of this.
I apologize, but Erik and I only had so much time. High level fly by, and I know many of you have more questions than answers. Next time Erik and I sit down again… I can attempt to fully explain the last 8 years in which I’ve spent more time, money, and effort understanding ignition than anyone I’ve ever spoken with.
Or, you can call me, trust what I have to say, and perform your own testing. Though frankly I’m growing a little tired of the fact that no one is doing their own shooting.
Good night and God Bless.
This confirms ALL dimensions. This is the real way to think about all of this.
I apologize, but Erik and I only had so much time. High level fly by, and I know many of you have more questions than answers. Next time Erik and I sit down again… I can attempt to fully explain the last 8 years in which I’ve spent more time, money, and effort understanding ignition than anyone I’ve ever spoken with.
Or, you can call me, trust what I have to say, and perform your own testing. Though frankly I’m growing a little tired of the fact that no one is doing their own shooting.
Good night and God Bless.
I was thinking the Forster press. Like the one behind you in the video. Your primer seater reminds me a little of Forester.
I have been debating on posting but thought it might help. First, if you ask the primer manufactures where to seat a primer they typically say one or two things. .004 to .005 below the case head or at a .002 crush. Second, think about a garden hose with a twist type nozzle. As you open and close it, it will go from a mist type spray to a high pressure stream. That is similar to how primer seating works and how the flame can be adjusted going through the flash hole. Finding the best place to encourage even ignition. Third, you have to spend a lot of time doing this, both in the shop and on the range. Most people just don't have that kind of time. Finally, my suggestion for folks right now is work on establishing a consistent .002 crush and consistent practices loading. (And quality time on range) I think Orkan will be putting out more soon and he already has some good videos on how to use calipers to do all the measuring for this. Don't get wrapped around the axel with some minor variances like + or - .001. Some brass has variances. Just be consistent. We started playing with this about a year ago. First thing that stood out getting crush with CPS is SD/ES numbers were cut in half. Great discussion and I laughed while listening to Eric and Orkan talk. I knew it would be a shit storm from both sides of the fence. It all matters but you have to test one thing at a time and from a solid base line load. Hope this helps some of you.
Love the garden hose analogy.
Without being inflammatory in any way how does the CPS allow you to get a consistent crush, whether that number is .001,.002, etc? If,
1. The case is held in place by a standard shell holder
2. The primer seater travels upward to a predetermined setting that hits a stop
3. And the pocket depth has a variance of .001-.002?
Are we saying that the adjustment on this indexes off the rim/extractor groove and the pocket depth variance I'm seeing is based on case head imperfections/stamping during manufacturing?
If that's the case and the pocket depth variance is consistently less than .001 off the rim with quality brass then I guess I'll be $600.00 poorer.
I find with lapua and alpha brass that I havent had my caliper measurements of pockets or primer seating not come out not the same.
Peterson theres around .001 of difference I can get. Peterson is my crap brass of choice so I cant speak to actual junk brass.
The CPS will seat them consistently, you can use the built in hard stop for a predetermined point or you can dial it a bit further up and use feel for first touch/full crush like you would in most other styles if you have a bunch of junk brass with varying pockets.
I used to measure with a caliper and felt like I could do better so I started researching and found the Accuracy One tool. It's mounted to my bench and has provided a much easier way to measure for me. I've only used Lapua cases to this point but I just got some Norma 300 WSM cases that I will be looking at soon.
Choid, I believe the is the point in the discussion that you are looking for is at 46:51. I have provided a direct link below, for your review.
"Long story short, what I've found is that on quality cases,.... you know Lapua cases, Alpha cases,.... Were talking less than less than five ten thousandths of variance, between the top of the rim and the bottom of the cup."
Greg further points out that you can still have a bad batch of brass even within good brass brands.
It should be noted, that in the comments of the video, Kerry Stottlemyer offers the following clarification/correction for consideration:
"The primer pocket and the case head markings are performed as a “heading” operation. It’s cold formed. The case rim is a second op performed on a lathe with a form tool. The uniformity tolerance is due to how the lathe holds the brass and what it is referencing off of. If the stamped the brass after the rim was formed the brass would be scrap in our world"
I use the hard stop on the CPS. If I have variances in my pocket depth I use the middle of those as the base #. My Alpha brass is all the same. The Hornady was all over so I trued the pockets. I also got more Alpha to replace the Hornady. With the Hornady I am fine with it being + or - .001. It is as consistent as I can get without measuring every single piece. And I am not going to lose sleep over it lol.
Edit: some of the variance is me. I am using calipers to get measurements. I don't have a fancy primer pocket measuring tool....yet. I get things as close as I can with what I have and then focus on being consistent. I take my time measuring and measure 3-4 times while setting my baseline. I am sure my numbers will be much tighter once I can get my hands on a better measuring tool.
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Yup, this is exactly what I was talking about in that portion of the vid.
Saw the interview, good stuff. Purchased you CPS but it is on backorder
, looking forward to getting it. My next purchase will be the PrimeWhere, but that will have to wait until after the holidays..
I started reading this thread a couple days ago and learned a lot, about the CPS product and about @orkan.
The first really seem like a product that may be much more important for consistent than I initally tought for my main shooting (F-Class), altough expensive for a abroad shooter (down the globe). But the CPS is on my radar now when I travel to US for next match (end january, import to my country from US means at least 60% import taxes) and hoopefully may be the first unit on my part of the globe.
And about Orkan, it really shows to be a gentleman and passionate about accuracy and precision sport. Two excelent combinations.
LRCampos.
I started reading this thread a couple days ago and learned a lot, about the CPS product and about @orkan.
The first really seem like a product that may be much more important for consistent than I initally tought for my main shooting (F-Class), altough expensive for a abroad shooter (down the globe). But the CPS is on my radar now when I travel to US for next match (end january, import to my country from US means at least 60% import taxes) and hoopefully may be the first unit on my part of the globe.
And about Orkan, it really shows to be a gentleman and passionate about accuracy and precision sport. Two excelent combinations.
LRCampos.
Get with me on that and I’ll make sure we get one held for you and ship to your chosen location in the states.
Graf & Sons! Our international distributor.
Primal Rights - Graf & Sons
www.grafs.com They are out of stock, but we should be able to get them charged up within 4 weeks or so. Working on it as quick as we can!
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Going to have a live stream on our youtube channel in half an hour (8AM Mountain) to talk about shoulder setback and how it affects ignition timing. Share it with your buddies that want to shoot better!
We'll be having a Q&A after the instruction portion.
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Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
We'll be having a Q&A after the instruction portion.
-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Going to have a live stream on our youtube channel in half an hour (8AM Mountain) to talk about shoulder setback and how it affects ignition timing. Share it with your buddies that want to shoot better!
We'll be having a Q&A after the instruction portion.
-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
I'm not sure I can afford to watch.
The heartache caused by seeing you put that reloading room to use is only assuaged with the expenditure of funds.
JK. I have a conference call at that time, so.... I'll be watching.
Will be a new thread started in the reloading section. Probably tomorrow.
Not sure what all the complaints on pricing are about .... seems pretty reasonable to me. When you think of it it's only about the cost of 2-3 boxes of primers
Really enjoyed the livestream and shoulder bump explanation. All things I now know and have been doing, but oh boy would it have saved a lot of frustration with my sizing operation in the past - the way I finally learned was having a BR shooter at my club walk me through exactly what you are talking about - he did it on the range in front of me - was one of the best lessons ever. Great ego check because I realized right there I did not know shit and needed to understand what I was actually doing and the mechanics of why. Now that I let my brass properly grow, know how to properly size to the rifle’s particular chamber, I size down to .0015 with extreme consistency. I have to admit that until your video with Erik, I never put shoulder set back and ignition timing together - not sure if you talked about it but you explained the mechanics so well, that was where my mind went. I equate that video with the bench sizing lesson I mentioned. Great ego check too as its information that I did not know (clearly I knew about spring tension) but again, your explanation changed how I look at reloading.
One question I have for you - I assume that you cant really get into harmonics (bullet seating and primer depth tuning) until you cases are fully fireformed (no matter how many firing that takes) but what about ladder testing? I usually find a node, then use that minus one grain to fireform and then when fireformed, perform a tighter test.
Ordered your PrimeWhere today - excited to try it. I have the AccuracyOne (which I will use for bench loading at the range) but your design seems much more study and consistent in the way the case sits. I like to measure after every seating so it seems that this will speed my workflow - which is pretty fast already with the CPS.
Thanks again for the great content and knowledge.
Thank you very much. As soon as I have an exact location where I will stay more (probably Florida or Phoenix, AZ), I will contact you.
This weekend I will try to see your videos for more info about ignition consistency and, hopefully, by february, get rid of some flyers!
LRCampos.
I don't really subscribe to ladder testing. I'm more in the OCW camp... with my own spin on it. Though to answer your question, yes... it doesn't pay to do dev with new or unformed brass... or brand new barrels. Too much changes.
I've noticed that measuring shoulder setback with one of the Wilson gage/micrometers gives me a lot more control over resizing. In some cartridges the difference between it and the Hornady gauge is negligible, but in others you can set the shoulder back enough for the Wilson to read .0015 without the Hornady registering it. Any thoughts on this?
More of a testimony of the caliper being used than the hornady tool. A drop indicator/micrometer is always going to be superior to a caliper when trying to resolve thousandths.
