Does anyone stand with Berger?

[JR1200W3]

99% of the people in this thread couldn't even dream of shooting the difference in bullet weight variation.... I'll show myself out

Nah, I'll disagree with this and the following post talking about BC drag.

When you shoot a gun using a load or bullet it doesn't like and then shoot a load or bullet it does like, you can shoot the difference. And that's the point. There are clearly bullet designs that are etched into hall of fame. Bullets that are easy to tune in any rifle. Bullets that ammo manufacturers choose for those "universal loads". The Federal GMM 77gr, MK262 type bullets, the 108 BTs, the 139gr Scenars. And then there's the bullets that are polarizing. They work for some people but don't work for others. The super pointy 95gr SMKs, 183's, etc. And then there's the bullets where you open the box and the plastic tips that are supposed to be in the bullet are floating around free from the bullet itself. The unannounced shape redesigns. The bullets that almost shoot fucking great but just have those GD fliers that keep showing up eventually. That justify the 30rd sample size argument.

You can shoot the difference between consistently accurate bullets and bullets that shoot well in one lot but don't in another lot, that change shape in new lots, that allow their plastic tips to fall out.

 

[Ledzep]

You come in here with actual data and burst bubbles?

What the hell is wrong with you, man?

It's actually pretty cool in my book. Berger pretty consistently holds awesome weight variation and they make great bullets. I'm not arguing that at all. But I see this come up a few times a year where people dismiss a bullet because they weigh 0.4gr variation or whatever, and it's like dude, shoot them and see how it performs first before you write it off... By and large, dispersion is the biggest contributor to hit probability... weight variation at <1% total weight is down the list behind average drag, MV, MV variation, drag/bc variation..... It's easy to measure but that doesn't mean it's an important selection criteria.

 

[Thump_rrr]

When I started shooting 500M+ about 15 years ago I was shooting .308 175 SMK’s at 2625FPS out of a 1-10”twist Savage 10BA. I was able to get 0.5-0.6 MOA without too much effort.
This was enough to keep me inside the V-Bull of a figure 11 target so I didn’t really look for anything else. At the time the cost of these bullets was $225/500 ($0.45 ea.)Canadian. They now cost $424/500 ($0.85 ea.)
185 gr Juggernaut’s when available are now selling for $122/100 ($1.22 ea.) I cannot see the difference on paper so I cannot justify the difference in price especially with the availability being spotty.

In 6.5 I am paying $625 Canadian for 1,000 139gr Lapua Scenars ($0.625 ea.) while Berger 140gr Hybrid Targets are now selling for $114/100 ($1.14 ea.) up from $104.99 2 weeks ago nearly double the cost of Lapua.

I will be shooting 1,000Y in the next few weeks and I am bringing along Lapua 139gr Scenar, Berger 140gr Hybrid Targets, Hornady 147ELD-M and possibly 140ELD-M for testing.
With threats of 30% tariffs looming I may switch entirety to Lapua bullets and Vihtavuori powders.

If I was shooting several hundred rounds a year I wouldn’t really be too concerned but at nearly 2,000 rounds a year the difference in price between Lapua and Berger will pay for the cost of the barrel.

 

[Maurygold]

It's actually pretty cool in my book. Berger pretty consistently holds awesome weight variation and they make great bullets. I'm not arguing that at all. But I see this come up a few times a year where people dismiss a bullet because they weigh 0.4gr variation or whatever, and it's like dude, shoot them and see how it performs first before you write it off... By and large, dispersion is the biggest contributor to hit probability... weight variation at <1% total weight is down the list behind average drag, MV, MV variation, drag/bc variation..... It's easy to measure but that doesn't mean it's an important selection criteria.

Plastic tips being non uniform or exploding in flight is a solely hornady characteristic. Stack that with the weight variation and they are low on the list of bullets I want to shoot. I also don’t think .4 gn is a realistic number for variation in a hornady bullet lot. I think this is a gratuitous take on hornady.

I suspect you’re a very talented bullet designer but the manufacturing is the issue I take with hornady

 

[Mean_Man]

Infinition Doppler radar head over the last 6 years of being an engineer in the bullet plant at Hornady.

Thank you

 

[TommyD11730]

Last 500 count Berger 30 cals I sorted were on avg .020" longer from ogive to base. Longer then the previous 2 lots that is


YMMV

 

[noobinacan]

How much aero performance gap does the .308 VLD's close over 6.5 in general ?
mad to think a 175gr VLD will perform close to a 142gr 6.5 ?
again we are talking WIND buck only!

basically are berger .308 VLD's worth the squeeze ?

 

[ma smith]

How much aero performance gap does the .308 VLD's close over 6.5 in general ?
mad to think a 175gr VLD will perform close to a 142gr 6.5 ?
again we are talking WIND buck only!

basically are berger .308 VLD's worth the squeeze ?

https://bergerbullets.com/ballistics-calculator/

 

[noobinacan]

ah lost and found again. thanks

 

[BruceLeroy]

Length consistency is more important than weight. Change the length and the BC changes.

 

[Mean_Man]

Length consistency is more important than weight. Change the length and the BC changes.

Makes plenty of sense, I was partly initially I think impressed with it because of the implication of such consistency.... Leading me to think if they're THAT picky.... I'd assume they're just as picky about other aspects of the projectiles.

 

[BruceLeroy]

Makes plenty of sense, I was partly initially I think impressed with it because of the implication of such consistency.... Leading me to think if they're THAT picky.... I'd assume they're just as picky about other aspects of the projectiles.

The worst part is that your rifle decides what it doesnt like. We can only then guess what it is and then get frustrated when we are wrong or we chase the wrong combination of components.
I 100% agree that Berger is the absolute best all around. I am also 100% convinced that quite literally 99% of shooters couldnt outshoot the difference between them and some of the others. We wont really know because we are on the web and everyone is an excellent shot.
For the record, I am included in the unable to outshoot group despite my anal retentive reloading practices.

 

[cas6969]

99% of the people in this thread couldn't even dream of shooting the difference in bullet weight variation....

I might disagree. Back in the late 80's, I found weight matching was one of the easiest and BIGGEST improvement in shrinking groups. Of course I wasn't shooting high end or "match grade" bullets just run of the mill hunting bullets, which was all I could get. So if you set the bar lower, you'll see greater gains.


(also noticed a big difference weight matching handgun bullets. With that I would echo your most people can't tell the difference, since I have long ago joined the ranks of most people)

 

[Fig]

Plug a 1gr difference into your ballistic solver and see what you get, and at what range it’s even .1mil.

 

[cas6969]

Maybe there's more too it than just math. The weight difference could be indicating some other anomaly with the bullet.

(and if you're trying to shoot tiny groups, .1 mil is nothing to sneeze at)

 

[JR1200W3]

It's a dumb argument. Most people can't shoot the difference between a Savage and an Impact, but you're not out there buying Savage PRS rifles. Most people can't shoot the difference between a TT and a Vortex. Most people can't shoot the difference between a McGowen barrel and a CRB barrel. But are you really going to make decisions based on that logic?

 

[JerkyFreak]

I can definitely shoot the difference between a Berger and a Hornady. (I don't know about A-tips. Can't afford those). That is why my purchases reflect that reality.

If a person cannot, there is either someting wrong with the rifle or the shooter.

 

[CK1.0]

IDK if I'm lucky or just a wierdo... but truthfully, IDK if I've had a "bad" box of bullets or ones my rifle/barrel didn't like.

For me, if I've got my reloading game squared away and I'm seeing single-digit SDs, most 100-yard groups end up with most/all of the holes touching, and it'll hammer at distance (with downrange group size changing more due to me sucking or not, and wind/mirage more so than anything else).

So far in my precision rifle journey, I've shot thousands of each of these, and they're what I have experience with (in order of when I tried them):

Hornady ELD-M 108s (~2500 IIRC)
Berger Hybrid Target 105s (~1500 IIRC)
Berger Hybrid Target 109s (~1500 IIRC)
David Tubb/Sierra DTAC 115s (bare, non-nosering) (~4000+ IIRC)
Barnes Match Burners 112s (~4000+)
Hornady A-Tip 106s (labeled as "seconds", supposedly DOD contract overrun?) (~2500 and counting, only snagged 3000)

IME they all shoot and I've had success with all... (FWIW, DTACs are my favorite; the 112 Match Burners are my runner-up.)

FYI/FWIW, I only buy bullets in bulk, 1000+ minimum. I either buy enough of the same type to burn out a whole barrel or as many as I can get of the same lot (depending on the current global pandemic status). I'm sure much of my luck has come from having "consistent ingredients" throughout the life of a barrel rather than dicking around being "forever load development guy".

IDK how the guys who buy a box here, or a box there, switching brands and/or weights, ever get shit sorted out... that sounds like a cat chasing its tail Rorschach Test nightmare!

JMHO, while no doubt high quality, Berger's reputation probably has more to do with the "monkey-see, monkey-do" nature of the sport, more so than anything else. YMMV.

 

[JR1200W3]

A clue is that if you've never seen a difference in group sizes from multiple bullets and barrels. Not even one. That probably means you can't shoot the difference. I've never gotten a 135 ATIP to shoot as well as a 140 Hybrid in multiple 6.5CM barrels. And believe me, I wanted to. On paper a 135 ATIP should be more competitive in NRL Hunter than a 140 Hybrid. I had a barrel throated specifically for the ATIP. But it wasn't to be. Same Alpha brass. Same charge of H4350. Same CCI450 primers. That's shooting the difference.

 

[morganlamprecht]

ive had one lot of 2k or 2200 (cant remember the box size) 108 eld's that legit shot as well as bergers on average...shot knots at 100 and if i saw a splash/impact down range the correction applied was consistent on the follow up as good as my shooting ability

i said it on here before, but ill say it again...i won matches with Hornady (Amax and ELDs) for years, and then i won matches with bergers for years. I switched back to hornady (ELDs) and still won...but then i went back to Bergers for good. The bergers shot better consistently, lot to lot, barrel to barrel in various cartridges.

and no, most people couldnt shoot the difference. shooting Bergers over Hornady isnt going to take you from mid pack to podium, but it can notch you a few extra impacts on smaller than normal targets. that counts at the top. being able to see an impact/splash and trust where you broke the shot and where it hit will repeat on the follow ups is a big deal

 

[Huskydriver]

ive had one lot of 2k or 2200 (cant remember the box size) 108 eld's that legit shot as well as bergers on average...shot knots at 100 and if i saw a splash/impact down range the correction applied was consistent on the follow up as good as my shooting ability

i said it on here before, but ill say it again...i won matches with Hornady (Amax and ELDs) for years, and then i won matches with bergers for years. I switched back to hornady (ELDs) and still won...but then i went back to Bergers for good. The bergers shot better consistently, lot to lot, barrel to barrel in various cartridges.

and no, most people couldnt shoot the difference. shooting Bergers over Hornady isnt going to take you from mid pack to podium, but it can notch you a few extra impacts on smaller than normal targets. that counts at the top. being able to see an impact/splash and trust where you broke the shot and where it hit will repeat on the follow ups is a big deal

This is exactly the spirit of my point earlier in the thread.... Thanks Morgan

 

[CK1.0]

Obviously, the more consistent the better, small targets at long range is the name of the game.

But don’t get it twisted, my opinion isn’t coming from the “99% who can’t shoot the difference” camp. I can shoot the difference, and good shit is good.

But are they worth ~$0.10 extra a bullet… IDK?

My club goes out to 1250, and I’d say get the best bullets you can afford when buying enough to burn out the barrel from the same lot and you’ll figure it out.

With pretty much whatever brand bullet, for the most part you’ll either be minute of basketball to minute of cantaloupe at 1250 yards IME, depending on wind/mirage and how much you suck or not.

Try some “cheap” Match Burners next to Hybrid Targets and see if it’s worth it.

 

[JR1200W3]

If you're talking about shooting the difference across 10 stages in a match, that's either disingenuous or niaive. There's too many other variables for anyone to definitively tell. Just logically, shooting one round at a piece of steel isn't going to be a definitive test of whether that miss or edge hit was stability, wind call, your zero, or a subpar bullet. If you can't zero your rifle properly with 1 round, and you can't determine what your guns no-shit group size capability is with 1 round, then you can't shoot one round groups at steel in match conditions and make a good judgement of the bullet either. But....When I've shot my best at matches, it's been with a barrel and bullet that are in the zone. They shoot awesome at 100, and never have elevational issues throughout the match. And they repeat performance match after match. I've shot the GAP 109 ELDMs, Sierra 107's, and DTACs over long stretches of matches but I've never done as consistently well match after match as with the 105 Hybrids. The DTACs were a close second depending on year made.

I was talking to some buddies after our club finale a couple of weeks ago. A similar debate came up about having some 22 cal barrels chambered and shooting them for some matches. I don't think it's worth it. The opposing argument is that a shooters performance in standings has less to do with what cartridge he's shooting than it does the mental game. "So and so could still win the match whether he's shooting a 22GT, 25GT, or heavy bullets in a 6.5CM." There's some merit to that but I think optimum combinations can make a difference sometimes. I pointed out that over the last 10 years in matches in our areas you would see certain shooters crush it for a couple of matches, or even a season. And their expectation is that they will still be in the top 3 next year, but then they get butthurt and surprised when that doesn't happen. Sure, some good shooters are just good shooters and when they show up to matches you know you have to be at them if you want to place. But, over the last 10 years in my area it's never been the same shooter winning the season year after year. And I've been there, I won the season points race one year but not the next. So what happened? Why is that? Why do some shooters just seem to be on a streak and crushing 1st place and 2nd place finishes at matches every weekend but then drop off? I've speculated that it's whoever has been shooting the most lately. But that hasn't been the case for me. I've placed better this year when I took two weeks off in between matches. I think it's definitely a combination of things, but I think having a barrel and load/ bullet that is performing really well, 100/200rd lots after 100/200rd lots, match after match is a core part. And that doesn't happen in one barrel for the entire season much less for multiple years. That barrel has an optimum sweet spot in between 200rds and 1800-2000rds. And then if you're not on top of it with the next barrel waiting in the background you're going to see a drop off. When the difference in score between 1st place finisher and 2nd place is one guy dropped 6 points the entire match and the other guy dropped 7. You just can't let rounds slip off the edge of the plate here and there. If you get 1 or 2 weird misses at a match, that you can't account for in wind or stability, it will suck the life out of your standings. And to reproduce a barrel and load sweet spot, barrel after barrel, without a lot of fuck around, you need the components that do it every time. I think that's the best way to quantify seeing the difference between barrels and bullets in a setting full of white noise. And having shot Hornady, Sierra, Berger ...and correlating when I have been crushing it, it's why I will choose Berger when I don't want to fuck around.

 

[Mr. F]

While this is kinda fun, it's probably more true than most people will know...

Typical match bullets (all brands included) show roughly 5-15% ES on net drag across the recorded Mach regime. Drag variability induced by the weight variation in this topic is on the order of 0.5% in the worst case (lightest vs. heaviest). It also doesn't affect MV proportionally to the weight variation.

For example, 0.5gr spread 30x each light and heavy for a 109gr bullet resulted in a 0.3fps velocity difference when tested.

Obviously if you fuck it up bad enough you can have weight variation cause problems, but for the most part what you see is well under 1% ES and it doesn't really manifest itself into anything that other factors don't already outweigh by orders of magnitude for down-range hit probability. YMMV, JME/JMO yada yada.

Why does the product Hornady makes to directly compete with the Berger product does not pass the acid test on the field then?

I know you posted this a few months ago but since it got revived… as a engineer of 6 years at hornady you should be able to put your finger on the actual backend problem if the easy to id problem of weigh is not it.

Why a Berger “reddit” load plugs in and is accurate at 105 yds, and shoots watermark at 6-950yds off the chrono almost every single time but thats extreme luck with Hornady?

Here a thought, what if really good shooters argue they cant shoot a difference because they shoot a bullet that after making the correct change in hold, the bullets just…go somewhere else?

 

[morganlamprecht]

Here a thought, what if really good shooters argue they cant shoot a difference because they shoot a bullet that after making the correct change in hold, the bullets just…go somewhere else?

agreed...this was difference i mentioned in post #70

i saw small differences in match scores, but the real differences i saw during zero or dope confirmation/truing days over years of different barrels and lots of bullets

a range local to me also hosts monthly belly steel matches with 1.5, 1, and 0.5moa steel...prone, no time limits, just accuracy focused...and it was noticeable when engaging the 1moa and 0.5moa plates

if a shooter is missing that 2moa barricade target at 500 yds...99.9% chance it aint the bullet, but going for that 4th and 5th target on the KYL/TYL rack...if you can shoot well enough, id bet they'll notice a trend



side note since match scores are being mentioned as a metric...i always take match scores (low ones) with a grain of salt...lots of factors outside of how well the rifle shoots in that score

there are good shooters
and then there are good shooters who also shoot great under pressure

...lots of people can do things in practice, they fumble in a match.....but if someone cant do it in practice, they damn sure cant do it under pressure at a match (outside of random luck)

 

[Ledzep]

Why does the product Hornady makes to directly compete with the Berger product does not pass the acid test on the field then?

I know you posted this a few months ago but since it got revived… as a engineer of 6 years at hornady you should be able to put your finger on the actual backend problem if the easy to id problem of weigh is not it.

Why a Berger “reddit” load plugs in and is accurate at 105 yds, and shoots watermark at 6-950yds off the chrono almost every single time but thats extreme luck with Hornady?

Here a thought, what if really good shooters argue they cant shoot a difference because they shoot a bullet that after making the correct change in hold, the bullets just…go somewhere else?

I don't know if those questions are answerable in a way that I don't type a bunch of words that don't functionally say very much, sorry. I don't track production very often. I do spot checks and investigative tests, and I do a lot of R&D new product testing. Beyond that it's handed off to production for that management team to run and maybe that's the answer to your question. The initial testing done with Aeromatch was within 1% of the yellow box for net drag and Aeromatch dispersion was better than the samples we had on hand. Beyond that I've heard anecdotal stuff going HARD both ways. The testing I've done in general doesn't reflect what you're saying, but again, there's a lot of room for me to not ever have caught it. I don't think anyone has a data set to make any authoritative claims-- just perceptions.

ETA: I know how to make tooling to make a small batch of bullets shoot teeny tiny groups... and I'll reiterate, the weight variation I've seen reported will not cause dispersion, nor will it cause wonky fliers at range according to what I've seen/tested in the past. The list of other things that can happen to cause dispersion issues would end up taller than me.