F T/R Competition F-class shooters bottom of the barrel, really?

davidwebb

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I was at a BR shoot last year and overheard this fellow talk about F-Class shooting with this guy that was an F-class participant, and this bigshot BR guy couldnt say enough bad things about guys like me that wanna get into the sport, said some shit like they dont have good equipment, they're flunkies, bottom of the rung, yada yada, and Im thinking id like to take this guy out and show him some equipment, wink. Im like PHUCH YOU, Guy! Maybe i shouldnt get mad but he really pissed me off. Just venting, vent with me, please.
 

Denys

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That is the last thing I want to do. Just ignore him and move on.
 

walley2960

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Sorry to read your tale. In my experience fellow shooters have been great to deal with. I guess as they say though "there's one in every bunch". Don't let it bother you to much. Although the equipment varies there is one commonality (accuracy). Good luck with your quest. Shoot straight and be safe.
 

davidwebb

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But I wanna show him what we have to offer, the arrogant fuck. Ill have to challenge him to a shoot off next time I see him, lol
 

nesikabay

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But I wanna show him what we have to offer, the arrogant fuck. Ill have to challenge him to a shoot off next time I see him, lol

Be carefull what you wish for. It could bite you in the ass. I have been shooting f class since it started. Best thing to do is shoot and enjoy it. I know because i am the original shit starter. Shut up shoot and have fun.
 

milanuk

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    Your best bet is to just keep quiet and keep your head down, unless you are *really* sure you can back up your challenge. As my old man used to tell me... "Don't let your mouth write checks your a$$ can't cash..."

    That said... if you don want to yank his chain a tad, get him to come to a *Fullbore* style match, preferably one where you can get squadded together on the same target, shooting three-to-a-mound. Not being able to rip off all their shots in a very narrow window and having to make discrete wind calls for each and every shot tends to take a little wind out of the sails of anyone who thinks this stuff is easy...
     
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    CharlieTN

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    You have to remember they play a different game in bench rest than the F class shooters do. The end goal is the same but the tools used to get there and the techniques required to master are quite different. Same goes for tactical precision versus F-class, versus benchrest, versus whatever. Different game. And of course there are always those who have to belittle others in order to make themselves feel better. Ignore them, they're not worth the raised blood pressure.
     

    davidwebb

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    I hear ya guys, Ill let my rifle do the ass whoopin'. If I keep all my shots in the 10 ring that would rival a BR shooting for group size, right? How big is the 10 ring, btw, Im new to this and would like to do some F class this year. I gots things to prove.
     

    ryanjay11

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    This sure sounds like a setup for an April Fools joke. You are a Benchrest shooter, aren't you?
     

    SWRichmond

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    I love benchrest shooters. They are responsible for pushing the envelope. They are the reason we have access to the bullets, barrels, brass, reloading equipment, and knowledge that we have. By constantly demanding an "edge", they make the manufacturers of all that stuff push push push.

    Having said that, I wouldn't want to be one. The things many of them shoot are only rifles in the purest sense. Of course, I can and often do post similar things about the outrigger bipods and bunny bags used by (most) F-TR shooters, and the bench rest prone stuff used by most F-O shooters. But they are there to do their thing, and I am there to do mine, and I can and do learn a lot from them. It doesn't irritate me the least bit that (most of them) they shoot better scores than me. That's not why I'm there. I'm there to make my scores keep getting better.

    Don't be hatin'.
     

    davidwebb

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    Thing is, folks shooting 600/1K BR use very similar rounds in their rifles compared to their counterparts in F class, barrels are the same, stocks, again, very close, scopes, front & rear rests, so whats the real difference in equipment?
     

    RobertB

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    Thing is, folks shooting 600/1K BR use very similar rounds in their rifles compared to their counterparts in F class, barrels are the same, stocks, again, very close, scopes, front & rear rests, so whats the real difference in equipment?

    Yes, you can set up a rifle to do both very well. I have not shot a true F-Class 1000 match with pits but shot and still shoot (when I can) 600/1000 yd BR. I much prefer any type of field shooting whether it be hunting, tactical, comp, target, whatever. I still admire the BR and learn from it as I only shoot calibers with very similar ballistics to my field rifles. I shoot 6.5x47L, 6.5x284&6.5x284Shehane. And in the field I mostly shoot 6.5 Creedmoor, .260, and .300 WM. THe BR helps me to see what bullets really do in the wind as all of the error I bring to the table is taken out. Especially in Heavy gun where my rifle weighs 65lbs. Magnification, clarity,finer reticle, fine clicks, and wind flags give me opportunities to do much better than normal. Shooting the same exact bullets at close speed keeps me from trying to learn to many ballistic paths. THe BR guys demand more in accuracy than anyone else I know of. But I must say that on more than one occasion I have seen guys with more "normal" equipment do just as good and sometimes better. I guess all the BR gear really does it take your error out. If your error is to a minimum anyway then you are deff a lot closer to wringing everything out of your gear. I have seen savages and remingtons and Winchesters etc do good at the matches but usually other than BR rigs the custom tactical rifles usually do very well too.
     

    armorpl8chikn

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    You are a BR shooter, you admit. So you already know that this breed of shooter tends to congregate in the BR game. I got out of BR many years ago...no thanks. It is true BR shooters have a different skillset in my experience. Most of their skill springs forth from deep pockets and anal compulsive handloading.
     

    9H_Cracka

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    Biggest differences are weight classifications and the use of muzzle brakes. Top notch competitive rigs in the two different disciplines don't directly cross over between the two disciplines. Another big difference - 1K BR has "for group" and "for score" awards. No "for group" awards in F-Class.
     

    JGorski

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    Saw this thread and thought Id chime in, found some really nice looking F class guns, they look just like BR guns to me, I to dont see how this BR "GOD" can say his BR equipment is better than F Class stuff. Only difference I see is the vertical grip. That last rig looks awefully familiar, hmmmmm
    k8Fqmhu.jpg

    EyZaTAs.jpg

    dTLyX1z.jpg

    4VkVxSS.jpg

    56SXz7O.jpg

    Gf15lN3.jpg
     

    lawrence97

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    Opinions are like a-holz and you are best by showing up and ignore the fact you ever heard the BR guy talking smack. I have played in both disciplines. BR got boring for me and it was an older crowd that seemed to have tons of funds to feed their habit. When I crossed over to f-class it seemed the shooters were of all ages and down to earth. Anybody with a rifle and round capable of getting out to 1000 yards without tumbling can have fun and learn a lot in fclass. What both have in common is a lot of time spent off line prepping perfect rounds and when on the line it's all about wind! Nothing against either discipline, they are both good to try out.
     
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    TunTav0321

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    To answer the question about 10 ring size. The 10 ring on the 1,000 yd F-Class target is 10", while the x ring is 5".

    Most all Benchrest Shooters are some of the best folks you will ever find, friendly to a fault, free with information, and glad to help a new shooter. There are always exceptions to any rule and pricks are just as easy to find in F-Class as they are in Benchrest.

    There was and still is some truth to the equipment in F-Class as it pretains to F/TR. F/TR was designed for a new shooter to bring what he had and compete, he may not be too competitive but he could show up and shoot. F-Open has always had the very best of equipment for the most part, that fact alone scares some folks away. Sad really because usually it is the shooter more than the equipment in most cases. Today however in F/TR I see many rifles competing that are in the $3,000 to $5,000 range on the line in F/TR. I would venture a guess that just as much money is spent on F-Class rifles as there is spent on Benchrest Rifles today.

    The one thing Benchrest Shooters especially Long Range Benchrest bring to the table is the ability to load superior ammo. That is the one area in long Range Benchrest were match's are won and lost and that is at the reloading table. It is also what seperates the winners from the losers to a large extinct. That and the "Fact" that in Benchrest shooting you had better be just as good as you can get at wind reading. Benchrest guys do this with "NO" feedback from the target at all--none. So when a shooter crosses over from Long Range Benchrest to F-Class where they stick a spotter in your last bullet hole its almost like cheating for them.

    I am one who shoots both Long Range Benchrest and F-Open, both have a unique set of problems and benefits. Today I can't imagine only shooting one or the other and not both. I also ignore those folks that are negative in there comments, there simple is no place for them with me.

    Roland
     

    JGorski

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    I too plan on shooting both 600yd BR & F-class, that last rifle in the pics I posted is of course my rifle, cost enough, and hope its competitive in both genres. Ive only met nothing but the nicest guys in my limited time shooting 600yd BR, hope I dont ever meet this guy Mr Webb is speaking of.
     

    9H_Cracka

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    "To answer the question about 10 ring size. The 10 ring on the 1,000 yd F-Class target is 10", while the x ring is 5"."

    The thousand yard BR for score 10 ring is 6" and the X ring 3".

    They are completely different sports, F and BR. Sighting and record fire times/procedures are different. The BR target staying in the air rather than pulled and marked - huge difference.

    There is a "Bench F-Class" in the works as well right now. And Rimfire F-Class.

    BR allowing muzzle devices and F-Class not plus weight class differences will remain barriers between the two sports.

    Here's a thought - why not add a 1k BR class where F-Open equipment rules apply, including shooting off the ground, but 1K BR course of fire procedures are adhered to?
     

    TunTav0321

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    Thanks for the education there cracka, I have been shooting both sports for longer than I care to remember and know the size of the 10 ring and the x ring very well. Sense this is the forum for F-Class I quoted the correct deminsions for that sport.

    Your comment: Here's a thought - why not add a 1k BR class where F-Open equipment rules apply, including shooting off the ground, but 1K BR course of fire procedures are adhered to?

    Be really hard to add a "Benchrest" class that is shot off of the ground. Kinda defeats the whole meaning of the word Benchrest, doesn't it?

    Roland
     

    lawman29

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    Amen to the posts commenting on what a good bunch of folks the BR shooters are.

    Also, a reminder for any of us involved in precision rifle sports - that we owe a debt of gratitude to two pretty good BR Shooters; Eunice and Walt!!!
     

    9H_Cracka

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    TunTav, not sure why your panties are bunched up - I just posted it so that both target dimensions were present in the thread for those that might not be aware.

    You can look at about any aspect of any shooting sport and say this or that defeats the purpose. F class from a bench? Oh that defeats the purpose? Or BR equipment rules from the ground that I was referring to?

    Guess you are just looking for a fight.
     

    TunTav0321

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    No cracka not looking for a fight at all, also not afraid of one. My panties also don't bunch there pard thats what starch is for. You can comment after the fact as much as you want but thats not what you said. You said

    "Here's a thought - why not add a 1k BR class where F-Open equipment rules apply, including shooting off the ground, but 1K BR course of fire procedures are adhered to?"

    So to answer the "Why Not Add A" part of that question. Because it would defeat the meaning of what Benchrest Shooting is all about, with the key word being "Bench". That ought to be easy enough to understand.

    As to F-Class being shot from the Bench, this does happen in registered matches now. I have shot against two different shooters who shot from a portable bench, different ranges as well. They can do this because of the High Power Rules section 13.1 this rule is applicable to Disabled Shooters and allows a petition to be submitted to the NRA Protest Committee.

    In these cases I don't think their shooting from a Bench defeats anything, I am just glad to see them out shooting.

    Roland
     

    RStewart

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    I was at a BR shoot last year and overheard this fellow talk about F-Class shooting with this guy that was an F-class participant, and this bigshot BR guy couldnt say enough bad things about guys like me that wanna get into the sport, said some shit like they dont have good equipment, they're flunkies, bottom of the rung, yada yada, and Im thinking id like to take this guy out and show him some equipment, wink. Im like PHUCH YOU, Guy! Maybe i shouldnt get mad but he really pissed me off. Just venting, vent with me, please.

    Don't sweat those kind of people. For every one of those type, you'll find 5 that are just the opposite. Besides, you're out there shooting for yourself, not for them. So, unless they are sponsoring you or have some other vested interest in you, their opinions are irrelevant.
     

    chefcam864

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    If ever a benchrester gives you guff just point out that 70 year old women shoot benchrest (this is true and I think it is a great thing), turn your back, and walk away. I'd be surprised if he has a comeback...;-)
     

    JWV

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    If BR is a sprint then Fclass is a marathon. Fatigue, weather, physiology are so much more of a factor in Fclass. Not to mention I get to shoot 60+ rounds in a match to which I did not have to weight sort, neck turn, trim, weight sort, ogive sort, weight sort when I reloaded to be competitive. The BR are guys have some serious patience and OCD.
     

    TunTav0321

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    If BR is a sprint then Fclass is a marathon. Fatigue, weather, physiology are so much more of a factor in Fclass. Not to mention I get to shoot 60+ rounds in a match to which I did not have to weight sort, neck turn, trim, weight sort, ogive sort, weight sort when I reloaded to be competitive. The BR are guys have some serious patience and OCD.

    I know a lot of F-Class shooters,I shoot at least 2 and sometimes 3 matches a month. I do not know a single F-Class guy who would make the above statement except for a few, and I mean a very few F/TR newbies who are not setup to reload as of yet and are shooting factory ammo.

    If you are not a dedicated reloader, taking advantage of every thing you can do to build superior ammo, then you are leaving a lot on the table. Matches in F-Class are won and lost in two ways. One is being able to read the wind, second is in the reloading room.

    Roland
     

    JWV

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    I know a lot of F-Class shooters,I shoot at least 2 and sometimes 3 matches a month. I do not know a single F-Class guy who would make the above statement except for a few, and I mean a very few F/TR newbies who are not setup to reload as of yet and are shooting factory ammo.

    If you are not a dedicated reloader, taking advantage of every thing you can do to build superior ammo, then you are leaving a lot on the table. Matches in F-Class are won and lost in two ways. One is being able to read the wind, second is in the reloading room.

    Roland

    I didn't say doing that stuff was a problem as it is great if you do take all the steps. Can't one reload excellent ammo without all the above steps if using quality components? You said wind reading and reloading win? What about a quality/accurate rifle setup? Fatigue during the 100 degree 3 hour match? I think a bit more is involved in winning/losing than just wind reading and reloading.

    I don't have full days to dedicate to prep as others do. Am I not dedicated? Anyway, at the 600 yard Fclass matches I shoot I haven't felt the need to do this. I do very light prep on Lapua brass, make sure I control neck tension, carefully measure my charge, and carefully seat a Berger 140. I have a neck turner, I don't use it. I did load work up and found something that worked well and shoots .5MOA or under. My match rifle has been plenty accurate and I have been competitive in F-open. With over 60 shots in 3 separate strings I think it comes down to me and less of my rifle.


    TunTav0321, I guess this guy is not a dedicated reloader either. From Accurate Shooter. Jeff Cochran "Brass prep consists of chamfering and running them through a sizing die to straighten the necks. On my 6.5-284, I turn the necks to .003" clearance. The 6BR is a .271 no-turn neck. I don't do many of the things that other shooters do. I don't debur flash holes or recut primer pockets. I don't weigh or sort bullets and cases. And I don't clean primer pockets. I've tried all those procedures at one time or another but never saw any gain in accuracy." ~2005 Fclass Champ Jeff Cochran, 2005 F-Class Champ
     

    milanuk

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    That was 2005... back on the full-size targets, not the 1/2 moa X-ring thats been in effect since 2007 (actually since the 2006 FCNC). The 'state of the art' has moved forward considerably in 7-8 years, don't ya think?

    Not saying that a person can't shoot very good scores without doing all the minutia brass/bullet prep/sort steps... in fact I think it's more valuable to have a properly tuned load than do all that stuff for the most part. At some point though when you're traveling to matches and whatnot... it seems to me that most of the above 'cost' very little extra and given the amount that we spend on travel, match fees, lodging, etc. it would behoove one to wring the utmost from their loads with some extra prep. Most of this stuff are things that you can chip way at a few hours at a time here and there if you really want to. If not, thats your choice.
     

    TunTav0321

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    JW, What I said is I don't know any serious F-Class shooters who would make the statement you did, or not do all they can in the reloading table. And if you were not doing that you, the shooter, was leaving a lot on the table. I stand complettly by that statement "Complettly".

    I am not saying that you have do this, I am saying you should do this so that you can be as competitive as possible. If you want to come to the line with less than your best, then thats up to you. I do not understand this type of thinking, but thats just me.

    You also mention a accurate and quality rifle, well that an "Of Course" but once again show me any serious shooter who doesn't have one of those. I routinely compete against rifles in the $5,000 to $8,000 dollar range. You can just bet they are quality and accurate at the same time.

    The conditions we shoot in you mention, those 100 degree 3 hour matches. I rarely shoot a match that is short as 3 hours, but we can use that as an example. While I do not have the statestics right here in front of me I would guess that the average age of F-Class shooters is in there 60,s or late 50's, with many shooters in there 70's. Danny Biggs ( who I shoot against almost once a month) is in his mid 70's and he is the only man to ever win back to back National Championships. We all have to shoot in the same weather conditions, hot cold or wet its the same for everyone. A lot of those old men are winning a lot of matches in those conditions. Myself I almost always shoot my best relay last, when it is the hottest or coolest or wetest. I do not believe that this is a huge factor and that it determines who is the winner and looser's.

    You are correct it does come down to the shooter, the winner is the shooter who is best at reading the wind, and who brings the best load. These are two areas were we as shooters can really make a difference. F-Class match's are almost always won and lost on wind calls, this is the number one seperator of winners and loosers. If you do not want to believe that, thens thats on you, but that is "FACT". Not opinion!!

    When you actually lay down on the line there is not a lot you can control at that point. The man who has the advantage is the one who did his home work and brings the very best and consistant ammo. You say your rifle and load shoots 1/2 MOA, OK at what distance does it shoot that 1/2 MOA? It sure is not at 600 yds because if it was you would never ever lose a match, and you would hold the record at that distance of 200-20X, sense the record is I believe 200-18X nobody has ever been able to that yet. You also say and I quote "make sure I control neck tension" Just how are you doing that? Without proper brass prep you arn't and nobody else would be able to as well. You are leaving to much on the table. Hell I do as well and I am a dedicated reloader, even that is not a guarentee that is right every time, but its not because of a lack of effort on my part.

    Wind reading, man that is what F-Class is. It is about reading the wind. I shoot match's here in the south and the winds are usually twitchy and unpredictable. On a good day during an average relay I make a wind call on every shot and a correction as well. Without good ammo and knowing how that ammo is going to react to what the wind is doing you are there just blowing ammo up. You cannot react accuratly without knowing your ammo. Its a balancing act, we all walk a fine line. Being prepared with your best everthing is the only way to let the shooter ( yourself) have a even chance at competiting.

    Yea JW I stand behind my statement!!

    Roland
     

    JWV

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    Roland, all very good points. I never refuted wind as not being the most important factor in winning. I am slightly perplexed that you say my rifle can't shoot .5MOA at 600 yards. How would I never lose a match if it could be that accurate? There is a person that needs to shoot the rifle isn't there? As for my rifle, it is very accurate, it has shot under .5 MoA at 665 yards before. I have shot 7x in a row during a string and shot 200 point strings. I doubt my rifle and load is a consistent .5MOA at 600 yards over 20 shots. However, I am definitely the limiting factor. I am younger and still learning the wind and have lost because a shanked wind calls and I too live in wretchedly difficult area for wind, the NW coast of Michigan. I am fortunate and have a family member with a lot of land with a 700 yardish range that I shoot on regularly. In a match last year, I was on pace for a 199 and literally missed a wind call which put me into the 6 ring. I was tied for 1st and went to 4th overall. I think that qualifies as a chance at competing.

    I still stand by my statement that a long match with adverse weather conditions will have a bearing on the match outcome, not everyone reacts to various conditions in the same way. Also in my experience, which is definitely not as experienced as yours or many others, I feel missing out on the marginal gains from sorting/weighing won't take a shooter out of the picture for a win. It however, definitely doesn't hurt to do all of those things. As was mentioned before, the state of the has moved forward considerably in the past 7 or 8 years. The top dollar components can make for some seriously accurate ammo when proper workup and loading technique is utilized.
     

    TunTav0321

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    JW, Glad you are seeing this as I am as a discussion and not an all out argument. I also am not trying to talk you into doing anything. You keep wanting to say its not the rifle but the shooter. Your comments about the weather and the temp point this out. You also say you are preplexed about my comments about your rifle and the 1/2 MOA accuracy. You conveniently mention that there would need to be a shooter. What you did say was this and I quote "it has shot under .5 MoA at 665 yards before" Did it do that by itself? No rifle, here let me say that again "No Rifle" is capable of shooting 1/2 MOA by itself, somebody is going to have to aim and pull the trigger, Therefore when talking accuracy it is a given we are talking about the Rifle/Shooter combination. I will also repeat your rifle and you are obviously not capable of shooting 1/2 MOA at 600 yds. You are not alone I also am not able to that day in and day out. I do not shoot many mid-range match's like 600 yds, I do shoot a lot of 1,000 yds match's. But in the 600 yd Mid Range match's I have shot I also have never been able to do that 200x20x as a matter of fact no one has as of yet. In my case I do not believe it is my ammo, it may be none of us are perfect but I believe it is not my ammo. You can not say the same thing, because in your case it just may be your ammo there is no way for anyone to know other wise. I do know that in my case the rifle ammo and shooter combination are cpable of shooting into 1MOA, I have shot cleans at 600 Yds many many times, so I know that combination is holding the 10 ring at least. Rarely is that alone good enough to win all of the time. The X count is the deciding factor and my best score in a 600 yd match is a 600-31X. Yea I was clean all three relays had 31X's and still lost the damn match on X count.
    You also dismiss the ammo altogether when you say, once again I quote " I feel missing out on the marginal gains from sorting/weighing won't take a shooter out of the picture for a win" Just were did you ever get the idea that good brass prep, and proper loading technque are "Marginal"? This is a statement coming from a guy who doesn't do any of these things, how would you know if they are "Marginal or not"? Becuase you are not doing these things you don't know wither or not they work or don't work. You simple don't have the experiance to make such a statement, go out and prove that you don't need them and then you may have earned to right to such a silly comment. Until then those are just words without meaning.

    To prove that point to some extinct i will take another comment or observation you made and quote it, "In a match last year, I was on pace for a 199 and literally missed a wind call which put me into the 6 ring. I was tied for 1st and went to 4th overall. I think that qualifies as a chance at competing."

    Here again JW, you are making another statement that may or may not be correct. I venture another reason you may have shagged that shot into the 6 ring. Hows about it wasn't a missed wind call at all but a flyer because of your lack or preparation of the ammo. Now don't misunderstand me, I am "NOT" saying that was the reason, I am saying it is a possible reason, but JW you don't know either, you have never done the work at the reloading table to know if it was or not. As to being in the match on that day you had that 199 going, what was your score for the two other relays? Another words were you having a good day or was the 199 the deal killer.

    JW, Listen I wish you luck in your shooting, and I certainly hope you succed at it. I just hate for a new shooter or even an old shooter not to do everything possible to be there best. Loading is a part of that success why does it make any sense at all to leave part of that on the table when it is so easy to do otherwise? I hope that sometime in the future we have the chance to shoot against each other, and on that day I want to beat your butt, no doubt about that, but for me that victory needs to be on the day when you have the best equipment money can buy, and you are shooting the best and most flawless ammo possible, and you are having your best day shooting ever. For just one element of that to be missing would for me be a hollow and meangless win.

    Roland
     
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    Greg Langelius *

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    Just joining the discussion, I think one can find a naysayer in any discipline if one looks hard enough. I don't think it means anything except to reflect back on the naysayer. I believe that basically, if one can't say anything nice, one is best off saying nothing.

    Some can't resist the temptation to pile on ridicule. Picking up that gauntlet can often be the first step on the road to disappointment.

    Conversely, if one allows the negativity to penetrate and make for a bad day, then who loses, and wouldn't it help to cultivate a thicker skin?

    Everyone has an opinion, and some of the best ones are those best left unvoiced. When that doesn't happen, they can also be best when left ignored.

    Greg
     

    bodywerks

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    Never shot in either class, but i witnessed a 70 something year old man shoot a 10 shot, 4.2ish" group at 1000 yards. Like 8 of them were in the x. They were measuring it for a new record when i left. I was impressed.
    Never shot or watched f class, but it looks fun. Not all shooting disciplined appeal to everyone.
    Write that comment you heard off to a guy that's a schmuck

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
     

    JGorski

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    Id like one of you guys to run thru what the typical day is in F Class, you know, if I wanna shoot out to 600yds for my first shoot what are they going to tell me do first, ie: How many shots? How long do I have to shoot them, etc etc.? The 1000yd range is on the same range as the 600 I assume? Never been to one so Im green.
     

    JWV

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    JW, Glad you are seeing this as I am as a discussion and not an all out argument. I also am not trying to talk you into doing anything. You keep wanting to say its not the rifle but the shooter. Your comments about the weather and the temp point this out. You also say you are preplexed about my comments about your rifle and the 1/2 MOA accuracy. You conveniently mention that there would need to be a shooter. What you did say was this and I quote "it has shot under .5 MoA at 665 yards before" Did it do that by itself? No rifle, here let me say that again "No Rifle" is capable of shooting 1/2 MOA by itself, somebody is going to have to aim and pull the trigger, Therefore when talking accuracy it is a given we are talking about the Rifle/Shooter combination. I will also repeat your rifle and you are obviously not capable of shooting 1/2 MOA at 600 yds. You are not alone I also am not able to that day in and day out. I do not shoot many mid-range match's like 600 yds, I do shoot a lot of 1,000 yds match's. But in the 600 yd Mid Range match's I have shot I also have never been able to do that 200x20x as a matter of fact no one has as of yet. In my case I do not believe it is my ammo, it may be none of us are perfect but I believe it is not my ammo. You can not say the same thing, because in your case it just may be your ammo there is no way for anyone to know other wise. I do know that in my case the rifle ammo and shooter combination are cpable of shooting into 1MOA, I have shot cleans at 600 Yds many many times, so I know that combination is holding the 10 ring at least. Rarely is that alone good enough to win all of the time. The X count is the deciding factor and my best score in a 600 yd match is a 600-31X. Yea I was clean all three relays had 31X's and still lost the damn match on X count.
    You also dismiss the ammo altogether when you say, once again I quote " I feel missing out on the marginal gains from sorting/weighing won't take a shooter out of the picture for a win" Just were did you ever get the idea that good brass prep, and proper loading technque are "Marginal"? This is a statement coming from a guy who doesn't do any of these things, how would you know if they are "Marginal or not"? Becuase you are not doing these things you don't know wither or not they work or don't work. You simple don't have the experiance to make such a statement, go out and prove that you don't need them and then you may have earned to right to such a silly comment. Until then those are just words without meaning.

    To prove that point to some extinct i will take another comment or observation you made and quote it, "In a match last year, I was on pace for a 199 and literally missed a wind call which put me into the 6 ring. I was tied for 1st and went to 4th overall. I think that qualifies as a chance at competing."

    Here again JW, you are making another statement that may or may not be correct. I venture another reason you may have shagged that shot into the 6 ring. Hows about it wasn't a missed wind call at all but a flyer because of your lack or preparation of the ammo. Now don't misunderstand me, I am "NOT" saying that was the reason, I am saying it is a possible reason, but JW you don't know either, you have never done the work at the reloading table to know if it was or not. As to being in the match on that day you had that 199 going, what was your score for the two other relays? Another words were you having a good day or was the 199 the deal killer.

    JW, Listen I wish you luck in your shooting, and I certainly hope you succed at it. I just hate for a new shooter or even an old shooter not to do everything possible to be there best. Loading is a part of that success why does it make any sense at all to leave part of that on the table when it is so easy to do otherwise? I hope that sometime in the future we have the chance to shoot against each other, and on that day I want to beat your butt, no doubt about that, but for me that victory needs to be on the day when you have the best equipment money can buy, and you are shooting the best and most flawless ammo possible, and you are having your best day shooting ever. For just one element of that to be missing would for me be a hollow and meangless win.

    Roland
    I DON'T CARE ABOUT BEING THE BEST FCLASS SHOOTER. I SHOOT FCLASS TO HAVE FUN AND IF I AM COMPETITIVE THAT IS A BONUS FOR ME.
    I am trying to get across the point that there are a multipltude of things that are significant in match shooting. You obviously have much more experience and skill than I do. As for when I mentioned the shanked shot, I assumed it was from the abrupt gust of wind that occurred at the exact same time I pulled the trigger. Also, I never said that I haven't did all the prep before, how do you think I thought I got marginal gains from it. I have done those things and given my shooting ability I did not see much of a change as others do. I feel as though you have became a touch of hostile or you have mistaken that I think I am some kind of extraordinary shooter given your repeated tones of insult. I am an amateur shooter at best and have been sharing my personal anecdotes on the topic of ammo prep. You have gotten away from my original assertion, IE. if we competed head to head wouldn't you want me to use my ill prepped ammo so you could prove a point. It seems that you are just trying to prove that you are a better shooter than me. I don't think it would match is necessary given your stated accolades. But if I ever make it down to Alabama for a match you can give me the best butt kicking as Fclass scoring will allow.
     

    TunTav0321

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    JW, Well this is going south, so I will say this and then I will refram from any other comments. I must apologize if I have given you the impression that I am being hostile towards you, that certainly was never my intent. Also I must have not been clear in my posts as what you took from them and what I intended are two complettly different things, either I have badly misspoken or it is just----------------

    Also I never said that the reason you dropped that shot into the 6 ring was your load, I did say that it "COULD" be your load. I wasn't there so I certainly don't know what the wind was doing, for all I "KNOW" it could have been the Martian magnetic polls efecting your shot. I was trying to make a point that not only don't I know but neither do you, obviously that point got lost.

    You also assume way to much JW, I certainly never said I am a better shooter than you are. I have been doing this a long time and I have had some success some of that time. I do not know which of us is the best and never stated such. That butt kicking could go either way as far as I am concerned. I mean sometimes you are the Bug and sometimes you are the Windshield, I have done my time at being the Windshield thats for sure.

    I also have not stated any accolades, I did mention one match score, just one. That was not an accolade it was just a reference to a score I shot, and even then I plainly stated I didn't win that match. So my best that day was sure not good enough, that is not patting yourself on the back.

    Roland
     

    diego-ted

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    JW, What I said is I don't know any serious F-Class shooters who would make the statement you did, or not do all they can in the reloading table. And if you were not doing that you, the shooter, was leaving a lot on the table. I stand complettly by that statement "Complettly".

    I am not saying that you have do this, I am saying you should do this so that you can be as competitive as possible. If you want to come to the line with less than your best, then thats up to you. I do not understand this type of thinking, but thats just me.

    You also mention a accurate and quality rifle, well that an "Of Course" but once again show me any serious shooter who doesn't have one of those. I routinely compete against rifles in the $5,000 to $8,000 dollar range. You can just bet they are quality and accurate at the same time.

    The conditions we shoot in you mention, those 100 degree 3 hour matches. I rarely shoot a match that is short as 3 hours, but we can use that as an example. While I do not have the statestics right here in front of me I would guess that the average age of F-Class shooters is in there 60,s or late 50's, with many shooters in there 70's. Danny Biggs ( who I shoot against almost once a month) is in his mid 70's and he is the only man to ever win back to back National Championships. We all have to shoot in the same weather conditions, hot cold or wet its the same for everyone. A lot of those old men are winning a lot of matches in those conditions. Myself I almost always shoot my best relay last, when it is the hottest or coolest or wetest. I do not believe that this is a huge factor and that it determines who is the winner and looser's.

    You are correct it does come down to the shooter, the winner is the shooter who is best at reading the wind, and who brings the best load. These are two areas were we as shooters can really make a difference. F-Class match's are almost always won and lost on wind calls, this is the number one seperator of winners and loosers. If you do not want to believe that, thens thats on you, but that is "FACT". Not opinion!!

    When you actually lay down on the line there is not a lot you can control at that point. The man who has the advantage is the one who did his home work and brings the very best and consistant ammo. You say your rifle and load shoots 1/2 MOA, OK at what distance does it shoot that 1/2 MOA? It sure is not at 600 yds because if it was you would never ever lose a match, and you would hold the record at that distance of 200-20X, sense the record is I believe 200-18X nobody has ever been able to that yet. You also say and I quote "make sure I control neck tension" Just how are you doing that? Without proper brass prep you arn't and nobody else would be able to as well. You are leaving to much on the table. Hell I do as well and I am a dedicated reloader, even that is not a guarentee that is right every time, but its not because of a lack of effort on my part.

    Wind reading, man that is what F-Class is. It is about reading the wind. I shoot match's here in the south and the winds are usually twitchy and unpredictable. On a good day during an average relay I make a wind call on every shot and a correction as well. Without good ammo and knowing how that ammo is going to react to what the wind is doing you are there just blowing ammo up. You cannot react accuratly without knowing your ammo. Its a balancing act, we all walk a fine line. Being prepared with your best everthing is the only way to let the shooter ( yourself) have a even chance at competiting.

    Yea JW I stand behind my statement!!

    Roland[/QUOTE

    Whole lots of wisdom in this post!
     

    TunTav0321

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    Id like one of you guys to run thru what the typical day is in F Class, you know, if I wanna shoot out to 600yds for my first shoot what are they going to tell me do first, ie: How many shots? How long do I have to shoot them, etc etc.? The 1000yd range is on the same range as the 600 I assume? Never been to one so Im green.

    JGorski, The day really begins with sign up, there you will find out a couple of things. How many relays there are going to be ( Usually 3 or 4 ) what relay you are going to be on, and what relay shoots first and which goes to the pits to pull targets.

    lets assume that is a 20 shot per relay, 4 relays. This allows for two shooters and two to pull the targets, if there are only three relays only one of the three shooters will be in the pits, one shooting and one scoring, and then they will rotate. It will be one or the other of these for sighters. Either unlimited sighters on all relays, or unlimited on the first relay and only two sighters on each of the last two. You will be called to the line and allowed 33 minutes ( Usually) to shoot your sighter shots and your 20 shots for record, you of course don't have to take that 33 minutes but they are there for those that do.

    I had a mentor when I started shooting F-Class and one of the things he told me was to keep the target in the pits. Another words if the target has returned for your next shot and stays up for some period of time the wind is changing from your last shot. So I shoot fast, depending of course on the type of pit service I am getting that day. With good pit service ( a good rule of thumb for Pit Service is pull the target, score it, stick in the spotter disc, paste the last bullet hole and return the target for the shooters next shot, a good crew will do this in 10 to 12 seconds) so with good pit service I have shot my sighter shots anywhere from 5 to 10 and my 20 shots for record in 5 to 6 minutes. Like I said I shoot fast, but in doing that I am also trying to shoot a condition when ever possible. Just as important as shooting fast is knowing when not to shoot.

    Thats pretty much it, your day is kinda busy at a F-Class match what with shooting, scoring for your shooter and driving down to the pits for scoring and pulling targets.

    Roland
     

    milanuk

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    Alternately... some places shoot Fullbore, which tends more towards multiple yardages, lower round count per yard line, and pair (alternating) fire.

    In the case of a match we have coming up, the course of fire is two convertible sighters and 15 record shots each @ 300, 500, 600yds. Its not unheard of for Fullbore to combine mid and long range in one match i.e. 3/5/6/1k if the distances are available. There are no unlimited sighters, but they are convertible i.e. if you shoot a 10 and an X, they actually count for something (if you want). In this format, you have two shooters both set up side by side on the same firing point, gun, mat, scope, everything, and they exchange score cards. Shooter on the right goes first. As his target comes back up, the shooter on the left calls out and records the score, then its his turn to shoot. This makes just blazing the target (chasing the spotter) almost impossible; you have to wait for the other guy to shoot before you can shoot again. Nor can you wait out the condition change as you have 45 seconds from when the target comes up to fire. This makes it very much more of a wind reading game than just who can rattle their shots off before the conditions change.

    The former style (string fire) that Roland described is, for better or worse, the dominant style in the USA. Fullbore (pair fire) is more common in Commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, etc.)
     

    JGorski

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    Thanks Roland & Milanuk, was wondering when you guys were going to run out of testosterone, hahaha
    Still not sure Im physically able to shoot F class, sometimes when I lay prone I get up with a throbbing headache, it's a arthritis thing in my neck region I guess, Ill have to practice on the floor and see what happens when I get up.
     

    CSiebert

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    I shoot FTR and 600 IBS both and I am surprised you ran across someone who made those comments at a BR match. I have made some very good friends in the 600 IBS matches and my experience has been, they are some of the best people you could ever meet. What I like most about those old men that are twice my age kicking my butt with their over prepped brass and super tuned loads is the lack of ego 90% of them have, and the willingness to share there experience and knowledge with me. I run into far more attitude when I go to a tactical match, especially when I dont bring a 16inch barreled rifle, 4 knives, 16 magazines to the line.
     

    TunTav0321

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    Thanks Roland & Milanuk, was wondering when you guys were going to run out of testosterone, hahaha
    Still not sure Im physically able to shoot F class, sometimes when I lay prone I get up with a throbbing headache, it's a arthritis thing in my neck region I guess, Ill have to practice on the floor and see what happens when I get up.

    The last part of your post brings up an interesting point. I was in the Marine Corps for 30 years in those years my body took one hell of a beating, the last two years I did from a hospital bed, see my signature. A few years ago when I decided to shoot F-Class I wasn't even sure if I could lay down and shoot because of those injurys. I was dedicated though and went out and bought all of the equipment to shoot F-Class. That can be a lot of money when like me you don't have anything to start with. I even built a reloading room attached to my shop.

    I remember the day when I finally had everything in hand, and headed to the range. Got there got set up and layed down to shoot, there simple was no way I could shoot from the prone. It took me 20 minutes laying there just trying to figure how I was going to get up. To say I was down hearted would be a gross understatment, not only had I spent all of this money, but just the blow to my ego was something you do not want to go thru.

    I then discovered Long Range Benchrest and this was a way for me to at least save face. I shot that sport for a couple of years and met a guy who was shooting F-Class and he talked me into giving it a try again. In those two years I had gotten quite a bit better, as just getting out and doing the shooting had helped with that. I take what ever I do serious and shooting Long Range Benchrest can be, And was in the begining, a humbling experiance. So my way has always been to do what ever work I have to, to be successful. I was going to the range 3 or 4 times a week just for practice, along with shooting a match almost every weekend you almost have to improve phyiscally.

    So I tried once again to shoot from the prone. I did this in my first F-Class 1,000 yd match ever. Sure enough I was able to get thru that day, didn't finish all that bad either somewhere in the middle of the pack and there were 64 shooters at that first match. It was pure agony doing it, everything I had hurt, I mean the next day even my hair hurt. Took me a week to get over that first match, but in the end I went back and just keep doing it. Today I shoot just as many match's I can get to, at least 3 a month in the summer, and I still shoot Long Range Benchrest.

    Shooting prone today still hurts but if you want to know the truth that gives me an advantage I think. The pain helps me to concentrate it puts me into that grove that I feel you need to be in. That is another reason I shoot so fast, I don't want to be down there any longer than I have to and I have found a way to make that work for me and not against me. Today every time I go to the line I feel that I have an advantage over the other shooters because of that pain, it forces me to think and I mean really think about the shooting. The way we are made up as people it is impossible to think about two things at the same time, try it sometime. I concentrate so hard on the shot that for that period of time I can get away from the hurt, and if my concentration falters during a string I have an instant reminder.

    Get out to a match and give F-Class a try, you might just be surprised at what you can do.

    Roland
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    BTDT; enough at least to place total faith in these experiences.

    Our Club does something F-Classy at reduced distance (so it fits into our range dimensions), unofficial (we use a Traditional V-Style target with rings sized to complement F-Class X/10 targets), and have added additional scoring groups for Open and T/R that permit bench shooters to fire the some course and compete within their group). We call it FV-250 (denoting the course distance in yards); the only recognition being a score posting on this site.

    We have also agreed to allow muzzle brakes. I just put a set of plugs under the muffs and soldier on.

    At my age, in my situation, it's been an outright salvation. But don't get the idea that any of it lessens the challenge or cheapens the experience.

    Greg
     
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    JGorski

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    Thanks for the advise, Ill have to do some dry fire practice in the prone position for a few mins and see what happens. Maybe a visit to my chiropractor would help, again.
     

    esromvre

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    Wile Shooting a Match in Lodi WI. I was listening to a conversation from a Well known Bench Rest shooter. Where he was comenting about how I was kicking his Azz with A varnmint rifle... Note I am A F/TR shooter. ya know thats the best I have ever felt at the end of a match... I have Quite a few top 3 finnishes where I was shooting TR in the open class. Dont bother worring just get to practicing.

    Most shooters just love to see the new people comming in. I like to do the two man team matches with shooters that have never done anything before. Not gonna win but one thing that I have found is its better to see the newbe realising that they can do it...