Suppressors Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

michael sr. · Apr 19, 2009

In my first post on my .22 supressor it became painfully obivious that there was NO snaptic connection in my thought processes! For one reason or another the importance of Sub-sonic FAILED to imprint in my cerebral gray-matter. I had a new .22 Suppressor. Waves of 'thrill' made my trigger finger squeeze N relax, squeeze N relax, squeeze N relax without thought. And my blood pressure dropped to an sublime inner calm. The excitment of having a Suppressor, the glorious dream of my backyard, returning to it's sanctuary status for wildlife by ridding my yard and the neighbor hood of maurauding 'ferral' cats.....

WAS SHATTERED...when I fired the first High velocity .22, 36-grain Tylenol.

So I posted.....

Glints of info kept reflecting in the light of more reasoned responses in your post's in my Neanderthal post after getting my .22 Supressor. Being "all that I can be" as a knuckle head I had to wait until the sun light of reason burned away the fog of ignorance: that I screwed up by not paying attention to...Sub-sonic! Then depression set in. WTF am I gonna do with 12,000++ rounds of hi-velocity .22 ammo? I had been buying, hording all this .22 ammo for just this moment in time?  Now I have to buy 12,000 rounds of Sub-sonic Cat-tylenol...in short order because the Weather is warming up and sure enought at night my back yard wildlife haven will be come a killing ground for those

ferral TANGO bastards!!!

Rolaid Relief is on the way: I made a call and a few thousand Sub-sonic's are on the way.

NOW MY NEXT CAN is for 30 caliber rifle!

AND YOU GOTTA HELP ME AGAIN ABOUT THIS sub-sonic issue.

I have a number of 300 WinMags, 30 cal Ultr-Mags and too many 308's so how does sub-sonic apply to center fire 30 cal?
Quality's to choose from:
---Stainlss
---Titanium
---Cleanable
---Not cleanable
---One CAN for all
---Threaded
---Quick Mount

........................got orders to clean the kitchen

JohnInNH · Apr 26, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

your hi-vel ammo will be sub sonic in a Walther P-22. Go get one or another cheep short barreled pistol (the sig maybe) A Rugar is too long as is a 1911 .22 kit. Even the long barrel P-22 will go super sonic with some of it... so the SHORT barrel in a p-22 will work OK with your ammo and be quiet with your can. (unless it's an old core AAC Prodigy then you will need to shoot it wet as dry it is loud on the p-22 The new core that is coming out in 10 weeks will be VERY QUIET!)

Get some Remington Subsonic HP ammo for your pest problem. Check to see if it's legal to shoot cats. As much as I dislike my yard having cats coming in and killing my frogs.. they do help with moles. so it's a wash... Now the dogs coming into my yard and killing my nesting songbirds and shitting all over gets me really pissed off. But I don't shoot them.

It is against the law to shoot any animals in NH with a suppressor unless you are licensed by the state as an animal control officer or a person who can get a license to cull a population of what ever critters they say you can. (I forget what it's called) It's a one day course and special licence. They you can get the flash bangs too.

For the 308 cal. I have an AAC Cyclone. The 308 Win case is a little big to get good consistent velocity with. You are better off with a 300 whisper. Get a Savage .223 and then get a Pacnor 300 whisper barrel in 1:8 twist for it. The bolt face is the same.. Just spin off the .223 barrel and spin on the 300 whisper barrel. You can shoot 220 and 240 gr SMK's with the 1:8 twist at 1050 fps and get excellent accuracy.

Super sonic will be a non issue with can cleaning. No crap like in a .22 can. Just don't shoot cast lead gas checked bullets. 1) the lead will screw up the can.. 2) the gas check can ding you baffles.

You can get a fairly good subsonic load in the 308. If you have a 1:10 twist you can shoot the 170-180 gr 30-30 flat base flat nose bullets safely at 1050 fps, and with the 1:12 the 150 gr 30-30 bullet flat base flat point will stabilize in that twist.

I have the Mike Rock 1:11.25 twist and shoot the 150's to be safe. Load them and shoot w/o the can first to make sure you are at speed and that they punch a clean round hole in the paper at 50 yards.

8.8 gr of trail boss in a 308 Win with a hornady 150 gr bullet is about 1000 fps. Next loading I am going up to 8.9 gr.

I also shot 8 gr of unique with 168 gr SMK's BACKWARDS loaded to an OAL of 2.283" They work well too. (9 gr is super sonic) I suspect Trail Boss may be better than Unique but I need to work up a load for it.

The 308 is the only case I would use of your section as the others have WAY to much case capacity.

You need a suppressor that can take a 300 win mag pressure. Get one that will work with that. If they are bolt guns just get a threaded screw on one.. If speed of swapping is important as is a flash hider than a quick detach is the way to go.

In the large case capacity cases don't even try subsonic.. Reserve that for your 308 and preferably with the fastest twist. A 1:10 will yield better results as you can shoot a heavier bullet and that will insure a better ignition and consistent pressure.

Not sure if this helps... But it may help. The P-22 is less than the cost of your ammo! Mine shoots flawlessly, and accuracy is OK. It loves the Hi-vel cheep ammo.

I just can't wait for the new core for my Prodigy! On a rifle is it very quiet, but my primary host was the pistol.

On my CZ cut to 17" with the Prodigy shooting sub sonic ammo I get less than 1" at 50 yards.

I also use the AAC Cyclone on my .223 AR-15 16" barrel, 260 Rem as wel as my 308. Hearing safe in all 3. (unless under a covered shooting point.)

malaga2 · Apr 26, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

excellent post... Ive settled on 10 grains of Trailboss with my Sig SHR970 in 308 1:10 barrel. works real well on a 20" barrel

michael sr. · Apr 26, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

Ferral TANGO bastards!!!

I have to confess:

I caught a big black cat a few nights back: in my live trap placed along a wall near the front of my house. The next morning with rifle and Supressor in the back seat and the cat-in-the-cage in the bed of my 4x4 we drove out to a lonely, secluded place in the country.

I turned the truck off, checked my m-phone for any new text message's, read a few old ones then cleared them out. I Rolled the window down and listened to the song, sung by Nebraska's state bird: Mr. Meadow Lark. While listening to the song it reminded me of a story my cousin told me about when he and his Dad went pheasant hunting for their first time. And the story had me laughing and brought back other memories (and tear's) of me hunting with my Dad (WW2 vet, died 15 yrs ago) in the Genoa, Albion area of Nebraska where my Dad grew up and attended the Indian School.

My cousin and his Dad had stopped by our house to show us how well they had done Pheasant hunting. My uncle and Dad walked back to the back of the car. Uncle opened the trunk and showed my Dad all the Pheasantss. My Dad said "those are Meadow Larks not Pheasants"............... telling you this make's me laugh and this happened 45 Plus years ago.

Oh, where was I...ah, now I remember:

Fleeting memories...After 15 minutes I opened my door, got out, then opened the 1/2 door behind my seat. On the back seat near the rifle was my 40 grain Tylenol pills. I opened a box of Win SubSonic .22 ammo, loaded the 10/22 mag. Loaded mag now in place, the 10/22 rifle was ready to be brought to life. I laid it back down, on the back seat. Went to the back of my PU, let the tailgate down then I 'bounced' like a tennis ball on concrete, up and into the bed of the truck. Just try visualizing a 5'7" 230lb. 61+ yr old, over the hill weight lifter bouncing...brings tears to your eyes...Anyway... I took a few steps over to the cat-in-the-cage lifted it up and was ready to hop out of the pu bed onto the gravel road...when those darn Meadow Larks started to sing.

Memories came back..... I put the cat-in-the-cage back down. I eased myself back onto the road surface, can't do too much bouncing!

I fired two rounds into a rotten bastard Dandelion weed, killing it!! I unloaded the rifle, put it in the back seat, stepped into the truck, slammed the door and drove the Ferral TANGO bastard to the Humane Society. And like the big tuff son-of-a-bitch that I am, I told the girl behind the counter to tell the owner -if they come into get their cat- if I catch this cat again I will not bring the cat back here!

While at the humane society and beating my chest a little when I talked with lady who took my cat-in-the-cage, an event took place that must have some mystical meaning....

The lady who has the cat-in-the-cage took it into a back room. About 15 minutes later it happens... I am almost 62 yrs, I have been to more than 20 countries and I have seen women who would melt a diamond: one of the most stunning, beautiful, gorgeous young women I have ever seen brought out the cage minus the cat and handed it to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was speechless!

You've seen that commercial where the guy is transfixed on his newly waxed Vet...well, that was me when I saw this heavenly creation, this heavenly constellation.

Now it's my mission to live-catch another Ferral TANGO bastard -even if I have to buy one- and take it back to the humane society...

David Hineline · Apr 26, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

If you and your grandson want to make a road trip up to Sioux City, I can take you to the range, and demo super and subsonic 308 and discuss a few options with you.

It would be wrong to buy a 308 silencer and then get less than you expected because of some hype a high pressure salesman put on.

David Hineline · Apr 26, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

bring ammo

shiner · May 4, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

Does this new advertisement software pick up on key words or is it just irony that dictated the sponsored ad right under the first post was this one?

Dr. Goodpet- Ha Ha- More like Dr. Goodbye Pest!

dksd39 · May 5, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

michael sr. -- dude if you happen to write a book one day make sure to let me know. I'll buy it as you are one funny sombitch

bohem · May 5, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

My personal experience with 30 cal class centerfire rifles is:

308, 8mmx56R, 7.62x54R

In each case I use Unique or sometimes Trailboss (but usually Unique because I have about 10# of it and it's cheap still)

To make sure the WHOPPP factor from these rounds stays I use 220 grain lead bullets with a gas check and the hardest lead I can cast. The things act like a drill on deer and other such animals.

My dad's nickname for these rounds is "momentum pigs" and he routinely shoots them at home so he can plink with the suppressor on and not annoy my mom.

You might have to use Trailboss with the magnum 30 cals because of the case capacity, with the 308 an almost full case of TB gets me subsonic, the Unique isn't nearly full, since I'm not trying to shoot 1/4 MOA at 600y with them it works just dandy well past 100yards. Just expect it to drop like a 22 does (not the same, but it drops fast)

One thing to worry about with a mostly empty case of Unique is Secondary Explosive Effect, and that can get dangerous so be warned with it in a 300 RUM.

The nice thing about shooting super heavy 220's in a 308 or a Nagant is that by the time you deep seat the bullet that thing takes up a decent amount of case volume and you don't have to worry about them.

EDIT: One more thing.

If you go get yourself a 30 cal suppresor you can have your 22 threaded for it. It's not PERFECT like a 22 can will be, but you'll get serious sound reduction, my dad's first permit allowed him to build a 50 cal can. He shoots his 22's through it all the time. Compared to his 22 cal can it's not a whole lot louder, he's a little disappointed having spent 200 bucks on a permit for something that's only about 4 dB quieter.

malaga2 · May 5, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

Have you tried Unique with the 180's... what charge are you using?

I noticed that TTI was using about 8.5 grains on a 170 grain bullet...

bohem · May 6, 2009

Re: Factory velocity vs SubSonic velocity...

I have 3 lead moulds. 2 of them are 150 adn one is 220 grains (one of the 150's is FP's for my 30-30). I haven't gotten in to shooting copper jacketed stuff subsonic as of yet, at those velocities the hard cast lead seems to work fine so I didn't spend the money on jacketed bullets for that application.

EDIT: Here's my dad's response when I asked him for some info regarding your possible situation. I didn't read it all, I have a feeling he's proctoring a study hall or something.

Tell them to get Alan C. Paulson's book, "Silencers: CQB . . ." Volume 2. Volume One is useless. Almost everything written here was gleaned from that book and reinforced by experimentation. Only the Cat's Sneeze thing did I get someplace else.

First of all, the whole bullet design for supersonic bullets is wrong for subsonic bullets. There is a reason that 22 LR bullets look basically like cylinders with round noses and long range sniper bullets look like tapered missiles. Center of Pressure and Center of Mass have to be differently placed for subsonic vs supersonic flight. Well, you took frufro in college, you know about that. If they load long tapered bullets into the .30 cal rifles, at 10" of twist, they will be marginally stabilized. They get more than 50 to 100 yards downrange they want to turn over and fly backwards to get Cp and Cm oriented properly. And once they start the tumble, there is no recovery. So many people will shoot the FMJBT with the boat tail going down the muzzle first. Basically then they are marginally spin stabilized but are mass stabilized, and instead of flying straight for the reason a spinning football flies straight, they fly straight for the reason a badminton shuttlecock flies straight. For good stability in a 30 caliber round which is in the 200 grain range, I use the Lyman mould # 311284, which casts about a 215 grain bullet, depending on which alloy is used.

Safely loading them is another issue. You cannot safely load a large rifle case like the .308 or 7.62x54R case with small volumes of powder without risking S.E.E. detonation. Its common practice to use a space taker upper material to accomplish this. Use LR Magnum primers to insure ignition, put the powder in place, then put Farina over the powder and load so that the bullet pushes out any air space. This is all a major pain because you cannot simply throw around the ammo and treat it like hunting loads anymore or the powder and Farina will mix. Plus, the Farina gunks up the silencer quickly. Other guys use cotton balls over the powder to hold it in place against the primer and take up the additional case volume, but again, that crud winds up inside the silencer. If its an easy design to clean, this is a good option. The thing with cotton is you need to inspect the bore of the silencer between shots because you could ruin your day shooting into a clump of cotton hung up inside the can.

You can safely load a .30-30 and the 7.62x39 with lead bullets using Trail Boss and data produced for Cowboy Action loads. But there is no data on using it for .308 or .30-'06 or other large calibers, since neither is a cowboy cartridge. Actual powder weights on other stuff I seem to remember being something like 6 grains of Unique producing the desired velocities.

Another thing they can do is produce cases with reduced case volumes. The Russkies did this by taking full sized cases and casting a polymer core in the center to take up excess case volume. That way they could have ammo that was silent and safe and could take field abuse while still shooting subsonic rounds. I tried this. Its not easy to do at home but would really be a non-issue in a normal manufacturing environment set up for it. I made one case and it worked fine, but of course you come inside the house to reload every round. I did it in 7.62x54R using JB Weld. I made a pintle with a tapered pin in the end. The pintle went into the case mouth, and the tapered pin centered the thing in the primer hole inside. I put in a lump of the mixed JB Weld and pressed the pintle into place and let the excess JB Weld squeeze out the mouth of the case. Once hardened I resized only the neck, and fired the case in only one chamber so it would not loosen the JB Weld upon firing. One thing I want to try for myself is to just machine a piece of brass rod to have the external dimensions of a .308 and the internal capacity reduced to a load for shooting the bullet of choice. But the price would be prohibitive to someone without a lathe of their own.

Another possibility is the Cat's Sneeze round. I made these, they are way cool, and cheap as can be to shoot. On ebay you can get the 22 blanks for construction for about $30/K. Get the hottest ones, use a Cat's Sneeze cartridge adapter, shoot lead bullets. I think the yellow coded ones are the hottest ones, and they do about 850 fps with 130 grain bullets. Which is nothing to sneeze at, that's lethal on a head shot on deer and will kill deer with a lung shot if you don't mind waiting for it to bleed out and then tracking it. For smaller game Some guy in Canada sells the cartridge adapters under the trade name "Game Getter". I don't have contact information any more. His product was inferior to mine though because he adapter is two piece and "shoots loose". He made his to use round ball only which weights about 53 grains, and the really wussy brown blanks, which are the lowest on the power scale. I used steel in my construction and silver soldered them together and they do not shoot loose even with the abuse of shooting 110 grainers with the yellow blanks. He sold his for about $25 each, which was decent deal considering the amount of work they are to produce.

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