I've never owned an FFP scope but was considering making the purchase. I would like to use the Reticle only (not have to dial for elevation). I was wondering, with the various scopes out there that use the Horus Reticles, if at higher magnifications you lose the bottom part of the reticle (the more you zoom the more reticle you lose). For example, if I'm at max magnification can I still hold 12 mils at 1000 yards with the reticle only? Better mention that I'm looking at the Bushnell 3.5-21 HDMR or the Leupold ERT 6-20 with H27. Want to make sure it's worth spending the extra money for the Horus Reticle if I'll have to dial extra Mils at higher magnifications/longer shots anyway.
Rifle Scopes FFP and Horus Reticle
- Thread starter usmcmk12
- Start date
I've never used or really looked at the Horus reticle but from what I've heard it's just to much. So take that with a grain of salt. If I was you I would give the vortex razor or bushnell HDMR a real look. Both have that nice tree look without going over board
At 20X you will be able to hold about 9.5 mils. 10mils would be the very bottom of your view. You could always back off the magnification a bit, or hold 10 the dial 2 mils.
IIRC, In my bushnell HDMR with TRMR2 reticle, I can see down past 8 mils at 21X.
I have it in the safe or I would pull it out and check right now.
Sean
I have it in the safe or I would pull it out and check right now.
Sean
I like HORUS reticle.
Sorry for the photo quality, excellent glass Leupold ER/T M5 6.5-20x
6.5x
8.0x
12x
16x
20x-750м.
20x-1000м.
Thanks for the helpful replies. I would have liked to not dial and use the highest magnification at longer ranges (900+) but it looks like it's not happening.
It depends on the trajectory of the caliber you are shooting. That, and the size of your target.
Rarely will you use full magnification at the longest of ranges anyway. If you want to hold instead of dial, what is the problem with using a standard reticle with Mil hash-marks? The G2 would be ideal for your purposes.
The answer is to get a scope with the H38 reticle. The zero on that is higher up so you get more holds. Look at the pics in this thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...6602-can-i-get-pic-horus-reticle-22x-25x.html
I counted 13 mils at max mag.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...6602-can-i-get-pic-horus-reticle-22x-25x.html
I counted 13 mils at max mag.
Seriously?!
The zero is where you zero it.
The answer is to learn how to use a reticle and not to rely on a gadget.
I know that 'XXX' means kisses, but what does the rest of it mean?
The h38 indeed could be the answer to "your" problem, since the center of the reticle (your 100 yard or meter zero) lies a wee bit higher than center...thus allowing you to see more of the vertical part of the reticle at higher magnification than with a standard h reticle.
I have been using mildot type reticles all of my shooting career, from the standard basic mildot to the p4f and the current gen2xr on my own private premier reticle scope. And i must admit, the first time i saw a horus reticle my first reaction was; "wow, never want that tree thing in any of my scopes, waaaay to busy...".
But after testing them on the job for some time, and seeing the potential it can give you, just as long as you try it with an open mind and you don't mind this outside the box engineerd reticle, once you have used one (i mean really used one, not just glared through it once on a 100 yard indoor range) it is very unlikely you will ever go back. At least, that is my experience. On this side of the big pond they are also met with big scepcis, but once trained with it, i see more and more both military aswell as law enforcement units transfering to horus reticles. If interested in the big plusses and all the positif stuff of horus reticles, feel free to send me a message. If interested in the cons, there are more than enough anti's on this forum who can give you all the negatives.
I think it is a step up, just as the first laser range finder was a big step forward, so are these type of reticles, my 2 cents.
I have been using mildot type reticles all of my shooting career, from the standard basic mildot to the p4f and the current gen2xr on my own private premier reticle scope. And i must admit, the first time i saw a horus reticle my first reaction was; "wow, never want that tree thing in any of my scopes, waaaay to busy...".
But after testing them on the job for some time, and seeing the potential it can give you, just as long as you try it with an open mind and you don't mind this outside the box engineerd reticle, once you have used one (i mean really used one, not just glared through it once on a 100 yard indoor range) it is very unlikely you will ever go back. At least, that is my experience. On this side of the big pond they are also met with big scepcis, but once trained with it, i see more and more both military aswell as law enforcement units transfering to horus reticles. If interested in the big plusses and all the positif stuff of horus reticles, feel free to send me a message. If interested in the cons, there are more than enough anti's on this forum who can give you all the negatives.
I think it is a step up, just as the first laser range finder was a big step forward, so are these type of reticles, my 2 cents.
+1 on this. Once I learned how to use it's features and accepted that it didn't "look" like what I was used to, I was and still am impressed with it for Sniping. I'm not sure a BR shooter would see it as being advantageous or not but for military/LEO work, I personally prefer it.
To the OP: The biggest thing is to keep an open mind as was stated above and really use/shoot it for a period of time before coming to a decision. It's not for everyone, it is a preference thing like chocolate/vanilla, Ford/Chevy and you have to come to your own conclusion. Check out the Horus website and play with some of their online demos to learn how to use it and play with it on the online range to see how it works out for you
My only beef is that for my own personal scopes ,using the Horus reticle is about a $400 additional fee to the scope cost. I have scopes with hash marks, standard Army mil dots and one with the GAP reticle and out of them all, I still like the Horus reticle the best.
Hmmmm.............
I use Horus reticles exclusively. I dial and hold both. The problem with only having the holding option in your bag is in extreme wind. On Sunday at mammoth on the red barn the wind was crazy. There were targets up the hill and the 1st one was around 7ish. I was in a hurry and tried to hold them. I was between a number which means I was holding on the .2 marks. I was also trying to hold over 2 mils of wind (with a 280ai do that math). So this means I'm out in the middle of space. What i should have done was slow down. Dial the range then hold on the center crosshairs with the .2 tick marks. This problem will be more pronounced with a caliber not as flat. So in my non professional opinion there is a need to be able to do both. My two cents.
There should be no problem holding 'out in the middle of space'. Knowing how to do that, and quickly, is the essence of good practical shooting. The Horus reticle is for people who feel they must always have a hash mark to use for a hold or correction, which is why the military likes the reticle and why it is such a good instructional tool for people inexperienced with using a reticle (like many military shooters).
I'm sure Im no where near the shooter that some here are, but in my case it is harder for me to hold when I have no verticle or horizontal tick mark when you get way far left or right in the wind. I wanted the gentleman to know that there are times that it might be more of an advantage to dial insted of hold even if you have a Horus. I think he was looking for the pros and cons of the system. I know Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I believe having a mark to hold on would be better than not having a mark to hold on even if it isnt good practical shooting.
Im sorta getting tired of guys who know nothing about a topic weighing in on questions. This guy is just like me. He thinks he would like to have a certain something but maybe he hasnt had a chance to see it up close or get behind it himself. So he asks. I've done it here a bunch. But then you get a guy who doesn't even know that the h38 zeros in the top half of the reticle answering questions about Horus reticles. Then someone like me who uses them alot try's to help him out with a reply about something he may not have thought of and get accused of not knowing "practical shooting technique". Maybe I don't but this dude wants to make a purchase for something that is probably going to mean quite a bit of money for him. Lets give him good dependable answers about the product he is looking at. Not opinions about it being too busy not your favorite or not the right color whatever it is. If you know something about it or have used it a bunch then help the guy out. If not just read and learn like the rest of us. I know that this is silly but if we spent more time helping vs criticizing would could all learn more about this sport that we love.
T
Im sorta getting tired of guys who know nothing about a topic weighing in on questions. This guy is just like me. He thinks he would like to have a certain something but maybe he hasnt had a chance to see it up close or get behind it himself. So he asks. I've done it here a bunch. But then you get a guy who doesn't even know that the h38 zeros in the top half of the reticle answering questions about Horus reticles. Then someone like me who uses them alot try's to help him out with a reply about something he may not have thought of and get accused of not knowing "practical shooting technique". Maybe I don't but this dude wants to make a purchase for something that is probably going to mean quite a bit of money for him. Lets give him good dependable answers about the product he is looking at. Not opinions about it being too busy not your favorite or not the right color whatever it is. If you know something about it or have used it a bunch then help the guy out. If not just read and learn like the rest of us. I know that this is silly but if we spent more time helping vs criticizing would could all learn more about this sport that we love.
T
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Like mentioned, it depends of the ballistics of the cartridge you are shooting. My 6x47L at 10,000 DA only drops 6 mils at 1000Y, on the HDMR there is 8.5 mils of reticle visible at 21x so I'd holdover even for our 1080Y steel, though most of the time during a match I'm between 12x and 18x to take advantage of the FOV and lesson the effects of mirage. Interesting trivia...my 20x47L with 55 grain Bergers only drops 4.3 mils at 1000Y in the same DA. grin
Speaking of the HDMR, it's probably the best scope out there for the money, especially with the H-59.
My first FFP scope had a Horus, been ruined since. You'll either love em or hate em.
The Horus is designed around Minute of Man, it was meant for a person of limited experience and one who engaged in even less practice. It's an excellent training tool, but beyond that only really works under ideal conditions.
Are there exceptions, yes, but very limited. Far more excel without it, than with it, under a variety of conditions on sub MOA targets. Across the course you'll never see many at the top of the leader board.
If and when the Horus shooter controls the conditions and circumstances it dazzles and impresses, change the variables and it covers the target, the impacts, and confuses the user causing them to hold the wrong line more often than reported. The initial impressions don't lie and it's only because of extensive sales and marketing, along with a helping of well placed favors do you see that change a mind.
Designed to take large game by the company owner, it was a visual aid for a person who couldn't bother to train.
There is a reason the best shooters gravitate towards Reticles like the MSR and not the Horus, guys who like them, we'll to each their own, but you'll find very few of the best entertaining them without incentive. One offs, need not reply the proof is in the results. You can accomplish the exact same thing with much less it only requires one thing, practice.
The sweet spot of any scope is in the center of the reticle. So much many manufacturers put blocks in to keep you off the very edges. Consider your fundamentals of marksmanship and dwell on Natural Point of Aim. You line up, adjust your NPA then after you have it, move. That is the base principle, you adjust your sight picture and compromise your NPA. The hold off is meant for speed when the shooter has a threat inside their personal danger space. The lack of distance takes away your time and opportunity to set up the shot "correctly". You compromise your basic fundamentals for speed, because the target is close which means, big. There is a fudge room to work with.
It can be debated, but not by those with real experience who are willing to be honest. I have yet to find a shooting problem that can't be solved with a reticle as sparse as a mil dot or Gen 2 type, the need to grid off the target is an unnecessary distraction. And I taught classes to the military on the Horus. It's a set of uneven crutches, it's a lowest common denominator tool in the box, it's a training tool to show you what a mil can look like when the user can't picture it. It's not all the hype would lead you to believe.
Are there exceptions, yes, but very limited. Far more excel without it, than with it, under a variety of conditions on sub MOA targets. Across the course you'll never see many at the top of the leader board.
If and when the Horus shooter controls the conditions and circumstances it dazzles and impresses, change the variables and it covers the target, the impacts, and confuses the user causing them to hold the wrong line more often than reported. The initial impressions don't lie and it's only because of extensive sales and marketing, along with a helping of well placed favors do you see that change a mind.
Designed to take large game by the company owner, it was a visual aid for a person who couldn't bother to train.
There is a reason the best shooters gravitate towards Reticles like the MSR and not the Horus, guys who like them, we'll to each their own, but you'll find very few of the best entertaining them without incentive. One offs, need not reply the proof is in the results. You can accomplish the exact same thing with much less it only requires one thing, practice.
The sweet spot of any scope is in the center of the reticle. So much many manufacturers put blocks in to keep you off the very edges. Consider your fundamentals of marksmanship and dwell on Natural Point of Aim. You line up, adjust your NPA then after you have it, move. That is the base principle, you adjust your sight picture and compromise your NPA. The hold off is meant for speed when the shooter has a threat inside their personal danger space. The lack of distance takes away your time and opportunity to set up the shot "correctly". You compromise your basic fundamentals for speed, because the target is close which means, big. There is a fudge room to work with.
It can be debated, but not by those with real experience who are willing to be honest. I have yet to find a shooting problem that can't be solved with a reticle as sparse as a mil dot or Gen 2 type, the need to grid off the target is an unnecessary distraction. And I taught classes to the military on the Horus. It's a set of uneven crutches, it's a lowest common denominator tool in the box, it's a training tool to show you what a mil can look like when the user can't picture it. It's not all the hype would lead you to believe.
Interesting observations so far, none really surprising. if anything, it shows that people either like it or don't, each with their justifications/rationalizations as to why. With that said, I found a statement in another thread that I felt was appropriate to this line of conversation that sums it up.
Hopefully the OP is able to discern some information from this thread that is beneficial to him in making his decision
Hopefully the OP is able to discern some information from this thread that is beneficial to him in making his decision
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Results, they tell the tale... how about this for results:
There is a sticky called, Tactical Shooter's Equipment in the Bolt Action Section, it has a breakdown of what the top shooters are using.
Look no further than 40th to find the first Horus in that list...
The entire list only has 2 (TWO) Horus reticles listed in the Top 50 + Places... that is very telling if you are interested in results.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...actical-shooters-equipment-what-pros-use.html
I bet you won't find in FClass either....
Not until the bad influence is gone and the facts come out will people realize just how wrong it is beyond a spotting scope or classroom. It should be limited to a 3 month training period than taken away.
Stick a Horus in a Spotter, you have a great tool, stick it in a scope and you only hurt yourself in the long run.
LL,
following your logic and using that chart would mean that everyone using anything other than whats on that chart is doing it wrong. Yet we all know that is not the case, there are plenty of people using equipment/kit that isn't on that list that are able to shoot very well. That chart and those who compete at that level are representative of a small percentage of shooters ( yet there are still some using the Horus and surely you don't blame their placement/ranking solely on their reticle choice) and even you cannot deny, are also influenced by sponsorship and or their own personal preferences for specific items.
Do you buy your vehicles based on who wins at NASCAR/F1 and what equipment they were using to do so? If someone is able to use a piece of kit and it works for them, thats all that matters at the end of the day, not what the pros are using or what you or I think of said piece of kit. At the end of the day this is a Chevy/ford argument that won't be resolved to either sides mutual satisfaction.
following your logic and using that chart would mean that everyone using anything other than whats on that chart is doing it wrong. Yet we all know that is not the case, there are plenty of people using equipment/kit that isn't on that list that are able to shoot very well. That chart and those who compete at that level are representative of a small percentage of shooters ( yet there are still some using the Horus and surely you don't blame their placement/ranking solely on their reticle choice) and even you cannot deny, are also influenced by sponsorship and or their own personal preferences for specific items.
Do you buy your vehicles based on who wins at NASCAR/F1 and what equipment they were using to do so? If someone is able to use a piece of kit and it works for them, thats all that matters at the end of the day, not what the pros are using or what you or I think of said piece of kit. At the end of the day this is a Chevy/ford argument that won't be resolved to either sides mutual satisfaction.
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The chart only describes who is the top shooters at the time and does not indicate superior gear selection. The top shooter uses an AWC brake but no one else does so does that mean they should switch. The number 19 guy uses a homemade stock but he still outperformed others that utilize top manufactures. I would argue that the number one shooter if given a different reticle may still place rather high as their skill as a shooter is what got them there. The p4 reticle is used by the number one shooter and three others, does that mean only the P4 will get you a top spot. I have spent a career analyzing statistical data from both a qualitative and quantitative perspective and this table has so many variables that it becomes rather useless to determine success other than to identify what particular equipment each person is using. IMHO, if you like them use them, if you don’t then select something else. I use various reticles and I like them all.
Please spare me,
you feel I am personally attacking your decision and because you happen to like the Horus you're decision making is flawed.
Well to be honest it might be, you don't seem to understand the fundamentals of marksmanship or what a Hold Off is used for.
It is as far from as Chevy vs Ford debate as it gets, it's like saying your Ford Focus can race in NASCAR against a Roush car.
Last time I checked the sponsors were not influencing the reticle choice and as I understand S&B, FinnAccuracy etc, are not dictating or spinsoring Reticles. That is shooter choice.
Go look in the mirror and tell yourself you're a winner and it will all wash away. But make no mistake I entered this party at the beginning. I saw it from the start the first day Horus stepped on the line. I can tell you about the day John Sr, from USO introduced me to Horus and how they tried to sell everyone on the idea. I know the match I won Horus money when they used to give $3000 a match away. They also used to host a demo stage to sell the shooters. It didn't work.
There is a reason the Horus machine died and then had to be resurrected with a new salesman. It originally withered on the vine until it became more of a lobbying effort. That lobbying is the only reason you're using one today and not due to some inherent or organic success.
So now the stats are flawed because they contradict you... Well isn't that special.
you feel I am personally attacking your decision and because you happen to like the Horus you're decision making is flawed.
Well to be honest it might be, you don't seem to understand the fundamentals of marksmanship or what a Hold Off is used for.
It is as far from as Chevy vs Ford debate as it gets, it's like saying your Ford Focus can race in NASCAR against a Roush car.
Last time I checked the sponsors were not influencing the reticle choice and as I understand S&B, FinnAccuracy etc, are not dictating or spinsoring Reticles. That is shooter choice.
Go look in the mirror and tell yourself you're a winner and it will all wash away. But make no mistake I entered this party at the beginning. I saw it from the start the first day Horus stepped on the line. I can tell you about the day John Sr, from USO introduced me to Horus and how they tried to sell everyone on the idea. I know the match I won Horus money when they used to give $3000 a match away. They also used to host a demo stage to sell the shooters. It didn't work.
There is a reason the Horus machine died and then had to be resurrected with a new salesman. It originally withered on the vine until it became more of a lobbying effort. That lobbying is the only reason you're using one today and not due to some inherent or organic success.
So now the stats are flawed because they contradict you... Well isn't that special.
You guys are missing the point, too blind to see.
No one thing is the issue, but if you don't think one of these guys would be using a Horus if it added to the overall equations you're wrong. The top guys seek every advantage possible, Reticles included.
No one thing is the issue, but if you don't think one of these guys would be using a Horus if it added to the overall equations you're wrong. The top guys seek every advantage possible, Reticles included.
I will echo Lowlight's comments: The Horus reticle on a spotter is great. Horus reticle in a scope, not so much.
Theoretically the Horus concept seems fantastic.
Field Practice, doesn't quite match the theoretical concept. Small targets, mirage and time constraints work against the Horus reticle more than you would think. Of course with practice anyone can become proficient using the Horus and that might be it's greatest benefit; bringing novice shooters to an intermediate skill level quickly. However, it won't bring intermediate skilled shooters to an advanced skill level any faster or better than a simpler more generic reticle (Gen2-MD, G2,etc). Advanced shooters generally consider the Horus reticle an unnecessary aide.
Novice Level: "Monkey See, Monkey Do", no real understanding of the theory and concepts of what they do and no internal knowledge base to make judgments on the fly. Able to use the equipment only in the manner they have been instructed with little ability to improvise.
Intermediate Level: Understanding the basic theory and concepts of why they do what they do; developing an internal knowledge base from experiences and are able to make some limited judgments on the fly. Can use the equipment proficiently in all traditional methods and able to improvise with some degree of consistency and success. Limited ability to train others to a level that approaches their own abilities.
Advanced Level: Having a through understanding of the theory and concepts to the point of being able to impart correct knowledge to other shooters with another magnitude of detail; having an extensive internal knowledge base to consistently judge and correct for a variety of conditions on the fly. Can use all equipment at an advanced level and improvise with a high degree of consistency and success and also the ability/knowledge to train others to exceed their own abilities.
my 2cents
Theoretically the Horus concept seems fantastic.
Field Practice, doesn't quite match the theoretical concept. Small targets, mirage and time constraints work against the Horus reticle more than you would think. Of course with practice anyone can become proficient using the Horus and that might be it's greatest benefit; bringing novice shooters to an intermediate skill level quickly. However, it won't bring intermediate skilled shooters to an advanced skill level any faster or better than a simpler more generic reticle (Gen2-MD, G2,etc). Advanced shooters generally consider the Horus reticle an unnecessary aide.
Novice Level: "Monkey See, Monkey Do", no real understanding of the theory and concepts of what they do and no internal knowledge base to make judgments on the fly. Able to use the equipment only in the manner they have been instructed with little ability to improvise.
Intermediate Level: Understanding the basic theory and concepts of why they do what they do; developing an internal knowledge base from experiences and are able to make some limited judgments on the fly. Can use the equipment proficiently in all traditional methods and able to improvise with some degree of consistency and success. Limited ability to train others to a level that approaches their own abilities.
Advanced Level: Having a through understanding of the theory and concepts to the point of being able to impart correct knowledge to other shooters with another magnitude of detail; having an extensive internal knowledge base to consistently judge and correct for a variety of conditions on the fly. Can use all equipment at an advanced level and improvise with a high degree of consistency and success and also the ability/knowledge to train others to exceed their own abilities.
my 2cents
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Gen 2 XR-"based on the principle Horus".
Results, they tell the tale... how about this for results:
There is a sticky called, Tactical Shooter's Equipment in the Bolt Action Section, it has a breakdown of what the top shooters are using.
Look no further than 40th to find the first Horus in that list...
The entire list only has 2 (TWO) Horus reticles listed in the Top 50 + Places... that is very telling if you are interested in results.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...actical-shooters-equipment-what-pros-use.html
I bet you won't find in FClass either....
Not until the bad influence is gone and the facts come out will people realize just how wrong it is beyond a spotting scope or classroom. It should be limited to a 3 month training period than taken away.
Stick a Horus in a Spotter, you have a great tool, stick it in a scope and you only hurt yourself in the long run.
Holding over is not a principle Horus invented, nor is adding reference points to the reticle. They were just the only ones to patent it.
What do you think this is... what purpose do you think the spider web reticle on an anti aircraft sight serves.
The fact others have added reference points does not change it is decidedly not a Horus.
What do you think this is... what purpose do you think the spider web reticle on an anti aircraft sight serves.
The fact others have added reference points does not change it is decidedly not a Horus.
I think it is you who is feeling attacked as several points you have made have been met with contradicting opinions based on facts, facts that you supplied in fact ( ie: ranking equipment chart). I am not tied to the Horus, I own more scopes without the Horus reticle and learned,probably as you did,on a fixed power hunting reticle.
I really didn't think you of all people would make this a personal issue/debate as we were having a constructive discussion up to this point in the thread. But yes, you must be correct, I made it through SOTIC and survived all those deployments without understanding the fundamentals of marksmanship or what a hold off is used for.
HMMM, yet by your analogy, and the equipment chart, we see a ford focus running in the pack despite your feelings on it.
I don't see how the stats contradict, if anything, as was stated, there are too many variables in it to support your claim.
I generally have and do agree with a lot of the things you have to say here about shooting. however,There is an old saying, " perception is reality". In reading the forums here I have noticed you (LL), have consistently voiced a dislike for anything associated with either horus and or the people/companies associated with them in some way. You may claim this to be otherwise and that may very well be your honest feelings, but it is not the perception that is conveyed here in the forums. Your signature line captures this sentiment well in fact, as that is what I have been lead to believe based on your posts. If that is indeed your stance, then that is fine,but please just come out and say it in plain English instead of trying to attack those who feel differently on the matter.
Do you know them personally ? As I have stated I have been at the party since Day One, I have seen them move through this community (not SH but the entire shooting community) and I have seen how they operate first hand. I know where the bodies are buried and I know the names of the skeletons in the closet, and that forms my opinion.
Also as stated, I have taught classes based on the Horus, I have traveled to Military bases doing the same, I have taught at the facility that started it all. So I know the system intimately and my opinion comes from there as well. I know what drills were designed to highlight the reticle, and what drills can easily trip them up. I know who used them and who uses them and why. Better than 10 years of experience revolving around this debate alone, forget my time in Service or what i saw there.
I know who was sued, who was bullied, who is being sued today because of a concept that is not unique. I have seen the owner light up when talking about suing people, which also adjusts my opinion.
So if you feel my opinion is flawed, trust when I say it does not come from the shadows on the subject. I have Horus scopes and software here, I continue to teach their software at the monthly class I work and I am happy to do so. I feel it gives a "new shooter" an advantage... but my opinions are the truth. They are honest and genuine, if that leaves a bad taste in your mouth because they contradict yours or the small minority of Horus users ... too bad.
Here is a second thought,
Point me to one person in the Top 10% of this sport who advocates "holding for everything" or advocates the merits of the Horus who doesn't have the Horus Fingerprint on them or in their vault. Even in the military, the decision makers were targeted by Horus in order to sell the rest on the merits of the system. It was not organic but through the Lobbying effort.
if you went to SOTIC you know exactly what I am talking about, tell the readers here how much time was spent "selling" the military on the merits. years worth.
Point me to one person in the Top 10% of this sport who advocates "holding for everything" or advocates the merits of the Horus who doesn't have the Horus Fingerprint on them or in their vault. Even in the military, the decision makers were targeted by Horus in order to sell the rest on the merits of the system. It was not organic but through the Lobbying effort.
if you went to SOTIC you know exactly what I am talking about, tell the readers here how much time was spent "selling" the military on the merits. years worth.
every time that "what the pros use" list gets thrown up, i end up staring at it for about 20 minutes in envy of the bad ass set ups these guys are running. its kinda funny to see the #2 guy running a bushnell that costs a little over a grand against a bunch of scopes that cost 3 times that with a bunch of different reticles. if that doesnt prove that its all about practice and knowing how to use what you got and not just having the highest end scope with the fanciest reticle then i dont know what does. not that i wouldnt take any of those s&b's or premiers in a heart beat
It is apparent there is some bad blood/business under your bridge with them and I have no issue with that. Again, I am not tied to nor am I a Horus fan boy but I do conceded that their reticle does work and is prefered by some people. That's it, no more, no less. Given your history, I can see why it's a stickler with you. However, it's no reason to belittle or attack others who like or use the product here.
How is that even relevant to the OPs question? Why do the competitors choices validate everything for everyone? Not everyone competes or wants to. Using them As a basis of your argument is flawed as pointed out above. So, if I was to use your logic and produce a chart that showed how many average consumers owned and used Horus (or any brand) reticles that would be justification for the OP or anyone else to base their decisions/choices on?
as for the military's choices and the procurement/ contracting process and what was choose , that's beyond the topic of discussion here and it's actully quite boring. Google the term "horse blanket" and you will see the procurement flow chart and why it takes years to field something as a program of record. It is also not in any one or two persons hands to decide which item gets selected and what doesn't. So it isn't a matter of selling anyone as you put it.
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My original post never mentioned a single person, or quoted a single word posted prior...
You didn't like reading what I posted, even though it was all the truth and felt it was a direct threat to your decision making. That is what prompted you to post in response. Then you quoted Graham from the Old School thread saying the "results point to the relevance"... well the only data we have to show results over any period of time, doing this type of shooting was that "tactical shooter's equipment post"... now you can try and spin the data, you can say it is too narrow, irrelevant, shows nothing, in order to justify your decision but it is based on actual use and is certainly telling in this matter.
You were never questioned, my post was based on experience over 10 years directly related to this system.
I gave the pros to system, use in a Spotter, or as a training tool... I gave the history of the system, the original intent as it was designed. I also qualified my observations as it goes to the very heart of the matter, better shooting. Why we hold off and why we should know when and where to do so based on the target and good shooting principles, ie the Fundamentals of Marksmanship.
Reading between the lines and overlaying past posts is a function of your mind and not what others see or what i have posted here. I have no decision to justify here like someone who bought and paid for the reticle. Interestingly, we have Horus charging $400 per upgrade while groups like FinnAccuracy or Premier charge less than $50 per licensing fee. That, along with their history of suing companies who "infringe" on the hold over reticle concept should be enough to turn people off the whole idea from this company. But because of their efforts, most recently through the military channels, people believe, wrongly in many people's opinion it has merit worthy of the costs.
There are people who are embracing the concept with real innovation, Like David Tubb and the DTR... Based on the principle of the hold off, it uses MPH for wind and then matches the reticle to the bullet using a DA formula to adjust based on the conditions. Their is merit and innovation out there, however a Mil Based "grid" is not it. Mils are not new, nor are they construct of Horus, they simply gridded it out... and again, Initial Impressions are correct and telling. if you have to be convinced of its merit that is a big red flag. I would rather see a new shooter embrace the DTR concept than jump into a Horus. The DTR is as simple as it gets, Wind in MPH, nothing to convert, smaller aiming points, less clutter in the FOV and then a solid method for adjustment based on the conditions at the time of the shot.
Pros and Cons are not hard to point out, the fact i did and you protested directly is telling in, you bought and paid for the system. I never have, in fact quite the opposite I was given it on more than one occasion and still I manage to give you both sides of the story. Reading disdain into my post, not a problem to me... the history speaks for itself. Still I gave both sides... not just one.
I wont waste me time with other comment, you;re not being honest as we both known they camped out at Range 37 and influenced a lot of people. These are not large orders, but small ones controlled at the unit level. I know I taught the classes bringing them into the fold. Horus employes guys to "teach" the reticle at this level, because more than 2 scope were bought. There are several levels of decision making at work here.
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First off, I'm not butt hurt personally over anything you said in response to my posts. I have no dog in this fight as I said above, no more, no less. I do contend that you have lost the ability to give an objective response to this topic based on your past history. Which is fine by the way, I'm sure there is merit in your position. However, you cannot deny that people, average shooters, not competitors buy and use the Horus reticle more so than those who compete, hence my using Graham's quote. Regardless of what you think or the competitors are using, there are a group of consumer shooters who like this product for whatever reason,ergo its relevance. To intimate that those who like/use the Horus reticle don't know what they are doing is a shotgun blast attack on all of those people, and that is what you stated in your post above, plain as day. I am not spinning any data, a third party, who happens to be a statistical analyst/statistician, pointed out the shortcomings of the chart to support your position.
Yes, I guess you did indeed do that, all the while intimating that those who continue to use the reticle past a certain time frame are inept and or don't understand marksmanship/fundamentals.
Actually, no, it is not just a function of my mind, it is quite apparent to others as well. Again, it goes back to the perception and that is indeed how your posts on this ( and other) topics comes across to readers. If you doubt that, then I would have to use one of your own statements you've made before and say that if you cannot see that "then I must question your reading comprehension". As I stated before, I generally agree with a lot of the things you ascribe to when it comes to shooting and you and I are in agreement that charging 400 for the reticle is outrageous. I cannot speak to their business practices personally,but as I stated before, you probably have merit in what you are saying.
I don't dispute that and am open to innovation and out side the box solutions. We could easily be talking about army vs usmc mil dot reticles here and I doubt you would be so vocally damning of one over the other as you have been about the horus reticle. Given your past history with this topic, I think your ability to give an objective opinion on the reticle compared to another is skewed.
I have never bought the system,as I said before, I have no dog in the fight . I have used it a good deal and I have a scope with the reticle in it that was given to me as a gift. As I said before, I find 400 for a reticle to be absurd. You may have stated the pros and cons but you did it with a biased position given your past history, thats far from objective.
Lets be real here, no one just camps out at range 37 unless they are invited and have something they want to see. More than one or two persons were influenced you say. That in itself should say something as we are talking about experienced team guys, who also happen to be senior NCOs and school house instructors,not mindless, opinion free troops. I know some guys who don't like it so I know their thoughts on the matter were also heard. The fact that individual units within the regiment opted to buy it also says that more than one group of people had eyes/ hands on with it and saw some thing in it, unless you're saying they were all brain washed. If you did the NET on it then that means it went through several echelons of eyes and decision makers, surely your not suggesting that there was a conspiracy and or any impropriety here or are you?
Edit: don't take my posts on this topic to mean I have drank the Horus kool aide, far from it. However I do think that it can and should be discussed objectively.
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Somebody won a big military sniper competition using a NF F1 with H-58 a few years ago. Can't remember his name but he used to post here on the Hide. IIRC the scope had broke necessitating holdover/off for the match, which I thought was intriguing. That's definitely a time I can see when a Horus reticle could aid a marksman.
One thing I like about Horus reticles vs others, for holdovers/holdoffs, is the lines are numbered and the numbers "aren't" right there at the 1 or 2 mil mark off to the side of the vertical crosshair, like with some other reticles. Just a pet peeve of mine, as I think having to aim through a number for a wind hold is kinda ridiculous and not the best idea for a reticle design.
For me I know I've forgotten to dial as many times as I have erred by not paying attention and choosing the incorrect line in the reticle when holding over. One of the reasons why I've forgotten to dial are when weird things happen, like a malfunction, cease fire, you know...a distraction of some kind. When holding over, and since I need to pick a holdover point anyway, distractions don't divert my concentration as bad when holding over.
Being a fan of Horus reticles, I admit that when I shoot groups or shooting at a specific distance for any length of time I like to dial but even then, for windage, I like using the .2 mil lines, or bracketing in .1 mil increments if that's what I want to use at the time.
I also like the ranging lines above the reticle in the H-59, much easier for me to determine whether something is, "for instance" .7 or .8 mil in size.
I find it interesting that one of peoples major gripes is the busyness/clutter of Horus reticles in a riflescope in reference to spotting a miss, and not seeing where it was because the reticle blocked the viewing of the miss, but in a spotting scope, key word here is spotting, the clutter is acceptable and somehow not in the way???
One thing I like about Horus reticles vs others, for holdovers/holdoffs, is the lines are numbered and the numbers "aren't" right there at the 1 or 2 mil mark off to the side of the vertical crosshair, like with some other reticles. Just a pet peeve of mine, as I think having to aim through a number for a wind hold is kinda ridiculous and not the best idea for a reticle design.
For me I know I've forgotten to dial as many times as I have erred by not paying attention and choosing the incorrect line in the reticle when holding over. One of the reasons why I've forgotten to dial are when weird things happen, like a malfunction, cease fire, you know...a distraction of some kind. When holding over, and since I need to pick a holdover point anyway, distractions don't divert my concentration as bad when holding over.
Being a fan of Horus reticles, I admit that when I shoot groups or shooting at a specific distance for any length of time I like to dial but even then, for windage, I like using the .2 mil lines, or bracketing in .1 mil increments if that's what I want to use at the time.
I also like the ranging lines above the reticle in the H-59, much easier for me to determine whether something is, "for instance" .7 or .8 mil in size.
I find it interesting that one of peoples major gripes is the busyness/clutter of Horus reticles in a riflescope in reference to spotting a miss, and not seeing where it was because the reticle blocked the viewing of the miss, but in a spotting scope, key word here is spotting, the clutter is acceptable and somehow not in the way???
Hmmmm..... with a Horus only if all your misses are low left or low right.
In a spotter it doesn't block nearly as much as it does in a rifle scope...
It is a much cleaner and far more useable...
It is a much cleaner and far more useable...
My use of the Horus is limited to one optic I owned for a little over a year. I ran it in matches and tried to like it, it just didn't suit my taste in reticles even after training with it. Around the same time, I had a shooting partner with a H37 reticle in a USO, he had many gripes about holding on the wrong aiming point due to how busy the reticle was, he eventually sent it back to USO for a reticle swap.
If I were shooting a bunch of UKD on unknown sized targets (guessing the range), spotting impacts in the dirt and correcting off of those, I see were the Horus reticle would come in handy. That's just not my word.
If I were shooting a bunch of UKD on unknown sized targets (guessing the range), spotting impacts in the dirt and correcting off of those, I see were the Horus reticle would come in handy. That's just not my word.
Spotting scopes with Horus reticles are FFP, right??? The message I'm trying to convey is the Horus reticle thickness is somewhere around .05 mil in a spotting scope, same as with a Horus reticle in a riflescope, and the .05 mil reticle thickness covers the same amount of area whether on 10x or 50X, maybe a couple inches at 1000Y.
I can't ever recall not seeing a miss because of that .05 mil of the reticle thickness in the so called clutter. When spotting for friends with my PF100 spotter, which has no reticle in it, I either see the miss because of debris kicking up or don't see the bullets impact anywhere. Sorry, I just don't buy into that logic. If a miss is high, low, left or right, that doesn't matter, it's plain as day to see if it can be seen at all, BTW.. were not seeing the bullet strike, but the debris the bullet kicks up, that debris is far larger a indicator as to where the bullet hit than the tiny amount of area that the reticle covers, however far the distance.
Yes they are ... FFP. I posted the picture they don't cover near as much of the FOV as the scope which blocks everything. I posted a pic, it is night and day from a scope.
You shoot in the desert, try shooting in grass or woods and see how well it works... it doesn't.
You like it, great go use and have a nice day. The Majority don't like it, and First Impressions are Telling... there is a reason so many people who looks at it OBJECTIVELY think it is too busy. That initial impression doesn't lie and you will find most who were talked into using it will move away from it after a certain point. Very few stick with it. 10 years+ i have been around it and I have 10 years + of history to back up my points.
AS I STATED ABOVE --- One Off Fans need not apply, we get it you're invested it in and want the world to know you like it. Good for you. Enjoy your reticle, the club you belong too will always be exclusive with limited membership. That should appeal to you.
You shoot in the desert, try shooting in grass or woods and see how well it works... it doesn't.
You like it, great go use and have a nice day. The Majority don't like it, and First Impressions are Telling... there is a reason so many people who looks at it OBJECTIVELY think it is too busy. That initial impression doesn't lie and you will find most who were talked into using it will move away from it after a certain point. Very few stick with it. 10 years+ i have been around it and I have 10 years + of history to back up my points.
AS I STATED ABOVE --- One Off Fans need not apply, we get it you're invested it in and want the world to know you like it. Good for you. Enjoy your reticle, the club you belong too will always be exclusive with limited membership. That should appeal to you.
More like Ipod vs Zune.....based off of sales and market popularity
