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Rifle Scopes Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Lindy, thanks great article!

LL, thank you as well. I was just wondering about returning to the exact setting (whatever that turns out to be after checking it per Lindy's instructions) under stress. It sounds like its just a training issue.

I appreciate your help gentlemen!

 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

laugh.gif

 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Hmmm, just picked up a 5-22x NF. Guess I'm going to have to make sure I can get to 11x quickly
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Just picked up a IOR Valdada 2.5-10x42 FFP from Steve at libertyoptics.com

I highly doubt I will be returning to SFP anytime soon.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Great info... Found Leupold version (mark 4), IOR as above, any other recommendations? I thought I was set on a mark 4 4.5-14x50, but now not so sure... Optically better, Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40 FFP or the IOR Valdada 2.5-10x42 FFP??
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Honas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really wish I'd gotten to this thread earlier just so I could try to get Lindy's goat! Let me try real quick...

But, Lindy! Metric is so much easier with mils! Metric is the only way Milrad turrets were meant to be used! LOL! </div></div>


Very Very Funny.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The rest of us just do whatever JuJu the monkey-boy whispers in our ear while we sleep.

</div></div>

I've been here a few years now and heard Frank called alot of things, but "JuJu the monkey boy" takes the cake!

Toss me in the "I'll fuck something up in a heartbeat if I try to convert my reticle values based upon what power I'm dialed to, especially when I'm trying to engage multiple targets at multiple distances with little time" camp. FFP or Fixed for this kid.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

I've never looked through a FFP scope. Would'nt the large retical at the highest power cover up a pin point target at 600 or 1000?
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Not if the reticle is designed correctly. Also the reticle does appear to grow but it grows in relation to the target so no more or less of the target is covered whether it was on 8x or 25x.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sailhertoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never looked through a FFP scope. Would'nt the large retical at the highest power cover up a pin point target at 600 or 1000? </div></div>

At 1000 a reticle can cover up a bit of target area...
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Thanks. I'm going to have to find one to look through some time.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not if the reticle is designed correctly. Also the reticle does appear to grow but it grows in relation to the target so no more or less of the target is covered whether it was on 8x or 25x. </div></div>wow that's a great insight, having never seen one in person i did not know this. i have always planned to get an SFP scope rather than FFP b/c i thought the large reticle would be horrible due to it covering some of the target/obstructing the field of view. i never even thought of the obvious fact that the as the reticle grows so does the target!


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sailhertoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never looked through a FFP scope. Would'nt the large retical at the highest power cover up a pin point target at 600 or 1000? </div></div>

At 1000 a reticle can cover up a bit of target area... </div></div>i would think a mil dot reticle would NOT be ideal for shooting a stationary target @ 1000 yds due to this very reason.


question:

regarding the falcon scope, which reticle is better the mil dot or the one with hash marks?
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

If the "wire" on the crosshairs is .25moa or .07mil thick it will alwways be that thick at all magnifications.

I personally feel a reticle set up for ranging and leads is ALWAYS better being FFP.

If you are shooting 1K tiny targets primarily, there are better tools available than a MD scope (such as NF BR scopes with fine Xhairs)....
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

There is nothing that will kick you in the balls quicker than forgetting to reset you power on a SFP scope and try and make shot corrections in mils from a spotter. It'll make you feel pretty foolish pretty quick.

I learned my lesson and desire a FFP scope.....
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Its probaly easier to understand what your choice is if you realize that the mil dots represent a measurement of an angle - like a piece of pie.

The power of the scope merely changes how the mildot reticle appears not what the distance between dots represents. With a 3-9 FFP at 3x the mildot reticle will appear very small and the lines very fine as you increase power with FFP the reticle appears to grow larger and heavier but the relationship between dots remains consistent and remains an accurate measuring device for estimating distance or hold over or hold off for wind or target movement.

In comparison if you take a fixed power 20x mildot and look through the scope the mildot reticle looks huge with the dots way apart but the distance between dots remains a constant value. It's like if you held a pencil at arms length -- it looks small and if you held it four inches from your eye it looks huge but the pencil is still the same size.

A fixed power 10x mildot really looks about right. A second focal plane scope like a Leu Mk 4 8.5-25x50 has a mildot reticle that looks huge because it is second focal plane it always looks like a fixed 25x would look even when the scope is at 8.5x. The only place it works correctly as a measuring device is the highest power.

This is the same issue that causes missed targets when people try to use second focal plane balistic reticles for hold over wihtout realizing that the hold over only is accurate at the highest power. With a first focal plane scope if you know what hold over is correct for what distance you can use the optic at any power and the hold over value remains the same.

You can use a balistic calculator to get dope listed in mils or in moa and if you select info in mils you can take a mildot reticle and use it for hold over accurately without dialing in correction, or you can do a combination like say you needed to dial in 4.3 Milradian dial in three 1/10 mil clicks hold on the 4th mildot down.

If you have a scope that is 1/4moa based you can still do it but you will be off a little because 1/4 moa is about 1/4 inch and 1/10 mil is about 1/3 in (.36 in) at 100 yds and as you go out further the error increases but you can get a shot of very rapidly by doing that.
In an ideal world all scopes would be first focal plane and 1/10 mil clicks or they would all be 6x42 fixed power, (but that another story).

Check out the 3-9x42 FFP mil / mil Super Sniper at SWFA.com and see the review that Lowlight wrote. Nightforce also makes a very nice mil mil FFP scope if you can afford it and then there is Heinsoldt for the rich and famous.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

I use both.

The advantage to FFP, like the advantage of Mil knobs, is that it frees up more of your attention for things other than doing mental math while engaging targets during a course of fire: the less you have to think about, the more mental capacity you are able to free up to devote to the task at hand, and the better your performance at problem solving when things don't go as planned.

For those of you who plan to quickly dial down on your NF to 11x, make sure to take off the rear lens cover before the start of the stage. I didn't, and jammed the lens cap under and behind the bolt - an excellent way to jam a bolt gun.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Could this all really boil down to what the person initally learned on? Based upon Lowlight's excellent review of the SWFA SS's, it seems like going to a mil-dot FFP scope with mil adjustments is the way to go. Read, dial (or hold), and fire - simple. To each his own, if it works - keep using it, but for me a FFP mil/mil scope is an excellent advancement in the tactical riflescope market that instantly commanded my attention.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've held on to the Imperial measurement systm as well when metric is better in every way.</div></div>

Begin standard screed:

There is nothing "metric" about mils. Both milliradians and MOA are measurements of angle which have <span style="font-weight: bold">nothing</span> whatsoever to do with any system of linear measure.

There are two times Pi radians in a circle, and a milliradian is simply one-thousands of a radian. One milliradian is an angle which subtends an arc whose length is 1/1000th of the distance from the vertex.

In other words, one milliradian subtends an arc whose length is:

1 yard at 1000 yards.
1 meter at 1000 meters.
1 mile at 1000 miles.
1 league at 1000 leagues.
1 fathom at 1000 fathoms.
1 inch at 1000 inches.
1 foot at 1000 feet.
1 lightyear at 1000 lightyears.
1 attoparsec at 1000 attoparsecs.
3.6 inches at 3600 inches (100 yards).

Claiming that there is something "metric" about milliradians is just a demonstration of innumeracy.

</div></div>

True.

Still, in practice reticle is easyer to use with metrics.

In metric system, all units are based same "meter". Like target size, wind, moving target velocity and so forth.
No inch, feet or yard conversions at any point.
Easy to deal with, even if calculator or printed tables arent available.

For example,

<span style="font-weight: bold">target size in meters x 1000
___________________________ = Target range in meters

target size in milliradians</span>

P.S.
Getting used to FFP reticle isnt a problem.
After using it a while, SFP reticle that changes its true dimensions constantly (relatitively to targets) just doesent make any sense anymore.

I have seen peoples messing up their shooting so many times in tactical comps -just because magnification wasnt right with SFP scope.


 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

while im sure the next scope i buy will be mil-mil ffp because i know better now, i find my sfp zeiss variable very usable for now as ive checked mildot calibration and scribed the spot where it works for miling and over/under holds.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


<span style="font-weight: bold">target size in meters x 1000
___________________________ = Target range in meters

target size in milliradians</span>

</div></div>

Works with IPHY reticles too:

Target size in inches X100
-------------------------- = Target range in yards
Target size in IPHY
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


<span style="font-weight: bold">target size in meters x 1000
___________________________ = Target range in meters

target size in milliradians</span>

</div></div>

Works with IPHY reticles too:

Target size in inches X100
-------------------------- = Target range in yards
Target size in IPHY</div></div>


THANK YOU!! Now that I get.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

I think FFP depends partly on your magnification range. For my 2.5-10 mag scope, I have no desire for a FFP optic.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Good information, I have noticed this distance but never bothered to look into it. I use 9 to 24 power scopes and shoot for distance on paper, So I've never had the issues discussed.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

I'm afraid your experience is a bit dated.

We shoot a little drill down at Rifles Only called Moving Chaos, which was derived from the combat experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan of our military clients.

Moving Chaos starts with the mover going from right to left, at a distance of 400 yards.

The second target is usually 210 yards away. The third is 315 yards away. The fourth is 560 yards away. The fifth is the mover again, but now moving from left to right at 400 yards.

Only hits count, with a maximum of 2 shots at any one target. The second shot is not necessary if the first shot is a hit.

Targets are 12-inch plates or smaller, except for the 560 yard target, which is a LaRue plate which is 11.75 inches wide and 22 inches tall.

Time expires when the mover has completed it's run from left to right, which is usually around 60 seconds after it starts moving to the left.

I've seen it done dialing elevation, but it's a lot harder that way. It's doable with a scope with all of its elevation on one turn - but I'll be glad to shoot it for money using my FFP scope against anyone with a SFP scope and/or dialing elevation. Fastest time wins.

Shooting it at night with a scope whose reticle is only accurate at 22 power, is nearly impossible. And the wind blows, which means the mover lead in one direction is different from the mover lead when it's moving the other way.

That drill is a reflection of the current sniper combat environment, with multiple targets at multiple distance and time constraints.

And that's why an FFP scope is a good idea. It gives you the ability to use the reticle for holdovers, holdunders, wind holds, and moving target leads at whatever level of magnification is best for the current operational environment and light conditions.

And that's why the Marine Corps and many other military organizations have gone exclusively to FFP scopes.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Here's another thought:

As most SFP scopes are set up to mil at highest power, and since mil reticles are fairly standardized as far as line thickness; then there would be little-to-no difference between how much the FFP subtends vs how the SFP subtends at highest power.

But, as you unzoom with the SFP, your reticle subtends more of the target.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might be right, Ratbert, but it bears repeating.
laugh.gif

</div></div>

...fer shur...now I know WTF mils are...
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

OH guys I am really corn fusssed now.. Sooo I have this Loopy MK4in a 8.5X25.. Book says it's a SFP and I can see that the retical does not change size with the power ring. Book also says that it needs to be on the high power setting X25 for the mildots. So what is the correct way to set up the scope? Right on at 100 yds or 300 yds or something else. And do I need to do this on the 23X setting???
Confused
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed. The SFPR is so the Sniper can make one shot at long range and disappear. With newly trained snipers using fast shooting FirstFPR scopes expecting to fire multipe shots; they end up being used for fodder.Today's sniper does not have to mill distance, just hit the button for range (even better the button is pressed by his spotter) A sniper's job is not suppressed fire; one accurate shot and live to make another next week. If I am a Sniper I want a SecondFPR and if I am a shooter...either one. Just an old Corp opinion..
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Yoboseyo
Yoboseyo
Yoboseyo, idi wa
No ipso chair e ay-yo
No ipso chair e ga
Drink drink drink drink
Drunk drunk drunk drunk
Drunk last night
And I was drunk the night before
Gonna get drunk tonight like I never did before
All this beer
It doesn’t bother me
Cuz’ I am a member of the 2/8 family
And the 2/8 family is the best family
To ever sail across the South China Sea
There’s the highland Dutch
And the lowland Dutch
And the Rotterdam Dutch
And the gottam Dutch
Singing…
Glorious
Victorious
One keg o’ beer for the four of us
Glory be to God that
There are no more of us
‘Cause one of us could drink it all alone.
TWO-EIGHT!
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Switched from a NF 5.5-22 SPF to a PH 5-25 FFP.

Sheeeeeeit. Once gone **FFP, never go back..........
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Re: FFP and reticles being too thin or too thick. For me, the Premier Gen 2 works really well either low or high. If I'm down at 3X, I'm not going to be ranging and the reticle looks like a standard duplex. At higher magnifications, I haven't noticed it being in the way. The Gen 2 XR seemed too thin to me at lower magnification though.

I will say one thing in favor of certain SFP scopes. The NF 2.5-10X32 is low enough on the high end that it is no different than if you were stuck with a fixed power scope. But it can be used as a variable when needed. 2.5X is nice for a snap shot while stocking elk in heavy cover. It's a smaller scope than most...nice for an LTR.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Nice thread. Being new to most of this, I can actually appreciate the logic behind the FFP scope. As a tactical shooter it makes all the sense in the world that one should be able to adjust their scope to the desired/ necessary magnification and be able to make the necessary shot. A lot of the time, Max power is too much. Logically it makes sense.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
</div></div>

How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!

Gil Horsley, Atlanta,GA
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
</div></div>

How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!

Gil Horsley, Atlanta,GA </div></div>

wow...
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
</div></div>

How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!

Gil Horsley, Atlanta,GA </div></div>

WOW....you really, really did not just say this did ya?

Flame suit on?

Troll Much?
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
</div></div>

How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!

Gil Horsley, Atlanta,GA </div></div>

Sounds like someone just ate a bowl of their internet wheaties this morning.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

KY- Your crate of same must be short a bowl.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!</div></div>In order:
1. His background is irrelevant, it's his level of knowledge that pales.
2. The internet test for his opinion is called vetting by peer.
3. He does indeed speak from unknown experience; that's part of the problem.
4. He proved himself wrong in his own post.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

You should apply your own rule in checking who your talking to.
Lindy contribution to this site is highly regarded.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
</div></div>

How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!

Gil Horsley, Atlanta,GA </div></div>
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should apply your own rule in checking who your talking to.
Lindy contribution to this site is highly regarded.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I personaly think the military made a huge mistake going to a front Focal plane reticle in the Schmidt and Bender that will just end up in our Snipers getting killed.</div></div>

Well, since one of the Marine Scout/Snipers who was involved in making that decision hangs out on this system, I'm sure he will deeply appreciate your opinion, since I'm sure his experience in the field pales compared to your's.
</div></div>

How do you know what this posters background is. Does he have to pass some kind of internet vetting test before his opinion is not patronized on this site. Maybe he speaks from a level of experience unknown to you. Why not give him the benefit of doubt until proven wrong!

Gil Horsley, Atlanta,GA </div></div></div></div>
I was going to say something, but I think I will just get some popcorn and watch the show.......
..............................SmokeRolls
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

I use the NF 5.5-22x with Mildot. Tend to use 22x for closer range target shooting but when i go out to longer distance i prefer reducing the mag to about 11x. I simply adjust my mildot reading to compensate for the change. If you are making frequent changes to magnification or you are moving between distances in a hurry it can get confusing. To help resolve this I've printed out a mildot image with various holdovers for various magnifications ie 5.5x, 11x, 16x, 22x and have inserted it into the cover of my Butler Cap. Quite a bit of data but its colour coded. I have a more detailed version in larger size and got that laminated with sample holds for wind on the flip side together with some basic rules of thumb for changes required for various temps, humidity, altidue etc and some of the more useful equations that crop up on this site and elsewhere.

I don't think it matters which you use provided you take the time to understand what you are looking at and how to interpret it. Building out tables and Mildot images in excel was my way of getting to understand my scope better.
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

Sorry guys. I meant absolutely no disrespect to Lindy. I read his posts and take what he says seriously. His knowledge is awesome.

Also, I am no troll....just a guy that perhaps used the wrong choice of words in someones defense.

I apologize if I offended the forum.

Gil Horsley, Atlanta, GA
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KY- Your crate of same must be short a bowl. </div></div>

You got caught stealing is what your trying to say?
Or you just chime in from time to time with rather dull comments?
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry guys. I meant absolutely no disrespect to Lindy. I read his posts and take what he says seriously. His knowledge is awesome.

Also, I am no troll....just a guy that perhaps used the wrong choice of words in someones defense.

I apologize if I offended the forum.

Gil Horsley, Atlanta, GA
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Welcome to the hide...
 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KY- Your crate of same must be short a bowl. </div></div>

You got caught stealing is what your trying to say?
Or you just chime in from time to time with rather dull comments?



</div></div>

Little fella, I welcome the day you demonstrate that you are anything more than a self-important silver-spoon bloviator. Just because you can afford gear, does not mean you actually know how to use it.

Let's see you give something back to this community other than your tough-guy policing of newbies and their slightly less informed commentary.

Please, prove me wrong.





 
Re: Focal Planes: is the FFP worth it for mil dot?

I think one of the points made in this thread bears calling out a little bit.

Yes, a dot-style (as opposed to hash style) mil dot scope at a longer range is going to cover up an area of your target equivalent to how much ever diameter the fraction of a mil that the dot encompasses is at range. The longer the range, of course, the more empirical diameter is being consumed in the reticle's optical field by the mil dot.

At the same time, when you move to an optical system with a finer detailed reticle you are making assumptions on the eyesight of the shooter and the shooter's ability and training to acquire and apply the finer detail under the shooting conditions that they purchased the rifle for.

So it all comes back to purpose.

For me, I know this rifle will probably never (I pray, anyway) be used against a two legged target in a kill or be killed situation. (If it is, the chinese or zombies are here OR its a book of eli situation and we are all in trouble!) I know that in taking a shot, most likely I will have the time to slow down, use a finer optic, and take the shot on my target, whether paper or animal.

However, I know my eyesight is crap.

For my purposes the mil dot is going to be a better choice.

1) Its what my training and experience has been in so it is the platform I can most effectively use to target the ballistic system it is attached to.

2) I know the ranges I shoot at are usually between 200 and 700 yards on average (elk and coyote range, sometimes mid-range paper).

Therefore I know some things that I need and some things that I don't to make an intelligent optic decision. No matter who you are and what you shoot, you have your own needs that you can go through like this to arrive at your necessary feature list.


I'm surprised this line of discussion was not pursued much as we tend to see a lot of newbie discussion on the subject.

Get the reticle which fits your use for the firearm and your training and experience as an individual shooter.

NOT the one with the cool buzzwords you saw in a magazine or read in a book, or thought was "cool" in someone else's photo.

And KY-- I admit it. I needed a bowl of wheaties. You had more than you needed. Sorry about that, they were good though
smile.gif
 
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