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For humanitarian reasons ... $500?

This is just disgusting. One commenter at the bottom of the article sums it up nicely:

Violates the 4th:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated
and the 5th:
nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation
Read more at Feds seize $27K from couple at PHL
 
"Federal agents at the Philadelphia International Airport Sunday seized nearly $27,000 from a Ghana couple after the duo allegedly failed to report the cash."

"When U.S. Customs and Border Protections officers explained federal currency reporting requirements, the man revised his estimate (from $6000) and wrote he had $16,000, according to authorities...

"A baggage examination allegedly turned up multiple envelopes containing $27,431.30 in U.S. currency, British pounds, Swiss francs and Ghana cedi."

"Though there is no limit on how much currency travelers can bring into or take out of the U.S., they are required to formally report amounts of $10,000 or more."

Seems like they intentionally attempted to circumvent customs (twice)- after being advised of the reporting requirements. Report what you have and go on your merry way or fail to report and risk the consequences. Seems pretty simple to me. They should be happy they got the $500.
 
There are myriad reasons why this went the way it did. They should have just declared the money. With that said, in their culture there is a huge distrust of law enforcement, and revealing that much cash would have probably caused them to lose the money in their home country. Another side to it is that when seizures like this are made, the seizing agency is usually not stupid. They have an idea who will and who will not fight a seizure. Seizure laws are something that need some scrutiny.
 
It's an inimical law that was intended to be used against criminals transporting large amounts of money either derived from criminal activity or intended to bu used in the furtherance of criminal activity.

Unfortunately, it's applied indiscriminately in dealing with anyone who transports large amounts of cash in or out of the country: Go Directly to Jail
 
You know what I find ironic, yet disturbing? Gun guys on a gun forum who don't mind the 4th and 5th amendments being trampled on, because you know, it's used for fighting crime and deters money laundering and what not....but come and try to fuck with our 2nd amendment, and then they're most likely "up in arms". You fuck with one of the amendments, you just fucked with the Constitution.

Some of you actually sound eerily similar to the anti's and are actually trying to apply the same flawed illogical justifications.
 
There are myriad reasons why this went the way it did. They should have just declared the money. With that said, in their culture there is a huge distrust of law enforcement, and revealing that much cash would have probably caused them to lose the money in their home country. Another side to it is that when seizures like this are made, the seizing agency is usually not stupid. They have an idea who will and who will not fight a seizure. Seizure laws are something that need some scrutiny.

No, this is ironic. Reporting a large sum of cash in their country may have led to its confiscation. But, not reporting it here actually led to confiscation.

The law was read to the guy.
 
You know what I find ironic, yet disturbing? Gun guys on a gun forum who don't mind the 4th and 5th amendments being trampled on, because you know, it's used for fighting crime and deters money laundering and what not....but come and try to fuck with our 2nd amendment, and then they're most likely "up in arms". You fuck with one of the amendments, you just fucked with the Constitution.

Some of you actually sound eerily similar to the anti's and are actually trying to apply the same flawed illogical justifications.

Are you actually saying that being searched while entering our country is in violation of the 4th? You must be one of those "open border" types, anyone and anything can come right on in, to include WMD's. They knew in advance, they were breaking our laws, and if caught would face American laws, they rolled the dice, they lost.
What if it were 50 kilos of heroin? Would you still be making the same argument? I hope not, but one never knows.....
 
Are you actually saying that being searched while entering our country is in violation of the 4th? You must be one of those "open border" types, anyone and anything can come right on in, to include WMD's. They knew in advance, they were breaking our laws, and if caught would face American laws, they rolled the dice, they lost.
What if it were 50 kilos of heroin? Would you still be making the same argument? I hope not, but one never knows.....

If they made it all the way to PHL with 50 kgs. of Heroin, I would give them a high five! That is a feat; to make it halfway across the world with a known product that most countries consider an imprisonable offense. You do realize that Heroin addicts are the least problematic users in society right...? They are just below stoners, they get high and slump in a corner for hours on end without moving and usually people have to prod them to make sure they are still alive. Beyond that stupidity, if you really want to find financial crimes being broken look into the banks themselves, as they commit more crimes against our laws, and humanity than every other entity combined when you consider the dollar amount. You are naive if you think that a couple bringing $27K into the US is going to cause grievous harm to our society, and yet the banks are legally allowed to conduct business here extort and launder billions of dollars a year. Oh yea, they are fined every now and again for meaningless sums. HSBC is ordered to pay $2 billion, or what is being called 5 weeks profit, for their drug laundering to the Mexican cartels, and JP Morgan has the largest fine of $11 billion for numerous illegalities committed, the largest fine ever, but this is like being pulled over for drunken driving, doing 50 over the speed limit, with multiple narcotics, and being 'forced' to give up a months pay to 'settle', all the while NO ONE BEING INCARCERATED! Please tell me again about American laws, and the rule of law versus the rule of men.
 
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If You do realize that Heroin addicts are the least problematic users in society right...? They are just below stoners, they get high and slump in a corner for hours on end without moving and usually people have to prod them to make sure they are still alive.

Do you deal with Heroin addicts on a regular basis? The ones I deal with are unemployed, burglarize homes, break into cars, steal just about anything of value to scrap to fund their addictions. Sure, when they are high they aren't much of a problem....unless they've OD'ed.

Perhaps it's the Heroin users in my area that are problematic. Be glad you have good ones!
 
Are you actually saying that being searched while entering our country is in violation of the 4th? You must be one of those "open border" types, anyone and anything can come right on in, to include WMD's. They knew in advance, they were breaking our laws, and if caught would face American laws, they rolled the dice, they lost.
What if it were 50 kilos of heroin? Would you still be making the same argument? I hope not, but one never knows.....

Stop with the strawman. It wasn't heroin or nuclear weapons. It was cash. The point is confiscating large sums of cash is over the top for failure to declare and no other indications of criminality.

Why should we care? Because every single person reading this sentence is a felon. You probably commit multiple felonies per year. You haven't read even one percent of the laws already on the books, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of new rules added to the federal register by unelected bureaucrats every year. I guarantee a zealous federal agent could find something in your home or business to indict you on, even if you really are trying to follow the law, it is impossible to comply with it all.

So pawprint, every single one of us "rolls the dice" everyday. Banks hate people who use cash. Your government associates big cash with drug dealers. Therefore, millions of American citizens loose the right to use their own money as they see fit outside of a bank's reach despite our Constitutional protection against unreasonable seizures. If the activity of a criminal or the welfare of a banker can negate the Constitution, what is left? We already face the repeated argument that since criminals use guns we should weaken the Second Amendment. Suspects might get away with crimes since we can't detain and search at will, so government continually weakens the 4th, or in the case of the NSA just ignores it completely. Sometimes suspects walk if we don't have a confession, should we forget about the 5th and torture it out of them? We have replaced the word "citizen" with "suspect." Guilty until proven innocent is the new mantra, beginning with the "war on drugs" and culminating in the "war on terror." Either would more properly be called the "war on the Constitution" because that is the only thing we have defeated so far. Drugs are more prevalent than ever, and Al Qaeda controls more territory than when we started. The only real result so far is we are becoming a police state. Given a choice between living with crime or living in a police state, I'll choose to deal with the crime.

Go ahead and keep placing "getting bad guys" higher on your priority list than liberty and see where we go. Inevitably you will eventually be one of those bad guys in some bureaucrat's crosshairs. Since few in positions of authority seem to care about the Constitution more than keeping their jobs, the government will have no problem finding some goon to work their will on you.
 
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You should speak for yourself, I do not commit felonies everyday. Our laws regarding the movement of money into the U.S. are good, they help collect taxes-from those that would otherwise not pay what they owe (leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab), and helps stop illegal trade, guns, funding of terrorists, drugs, etc. The very argument that others do worse, therefore; we should not prosecute anyone else is on its face, almost insane! The failure to declare (in fact, in this case change their paperwork in an attempted obfuscation) the amount of money moving into our country has long been a crime, and has nothing to do with the "war on terror" or the "war on drugs", it will help in both cases, but has been the law for a longer than either of these "wars". Non Americans coming into the U.S. with undeclared sums of money (in excess of that allowed by law), should be prosecuted. Just as any other smuggler.

BALLISTIC stated:
What if it were 50 kilos of heroin? Would you still be making the same argument? I hope not, but one never knows.....
If they made it all the way to PHL with 50 kgs. of Heroin, I would give them a high five! That is a feat; to make it halfway across the world with a known product that most countries consider an imprisonable offense. You do realize that Heroin addicts are the least problematic users in society right...? They are just below stoners, they get high and slump in a corner for hours on end without moving and usually people have to prod them to make sure they are still alive. Beyond that stupidity, if you really want to find financial crimes being broken look into the banks themselves, as they commit more crimes against our laws, and humanity than every other entity combined when you consider the dollar amount. You are naive if you think that a couple bringing $27K into the US is going to cause grievous harm to our society, and yet the banks are legally allowed to conduct business here extort and launder billions of dollars a year. Oh yea, they are fined every now and again for meaningless sums. HSBC is ordered to pay $2 billion, or what is being called 5 weeks profit, for their drug laundering to the Mexican cartels, and JP Morgan has the largest fine of $11 billion for numerous illegalities committed, the largest fine ever, but this is like being pulled over for drunken driving, doing 50 over the speed limit, with multiple narcotics, and being 'forced' to give up a months pay to 'settle', all the while NO ONE BEING INCARCERATED! Please tell me again about American laws, and the rule of law versus the rule of men.

The fact that you would give a "high five" to anyone smuggling heroin in the U.S., says everything I need to know. I wonder how much each of the terrorist that killed so many Americans in the 9/11 attack brought into the U.S.-I don't have to wonder how much "grievous harm" they caused our country.
Again, it seems many are confused by the concept of "Rule of law". The Rule of Law does not mean, if someone "beats the system" everyone should be exempt from all laws! But rather, to strive to enforce all laws equally. Will it ever be perfect? Hell no. Should we quit enforcing laws-criminal laws-because someone or some corporation was able to get away with something? Of course not.
It was pointed out that U.S. Customs and Border Patrol seized 30 billion dollars annually ($30,000,000,000.00), if this is correct, that is a lot of dollars evading our tax laws. Even if only 10% was to be going to other crimes that would still be 3 billion dollars ($3,000,000,000.00). Most criminals are trying to make money, or keep from paying their taxes, if you want to keep the rule of law, get their money. Seizing drug dealers cars/boats/houses etc. is a good thing. But seizing low level criminals cars when caught driving drunk/on drugs/without license/ etc. adds up ($$$) for the police, and helps keep taxes down!
BTW, I hope you were joking about giving some low life, scum a high five for bring heroin into the U.S.. If not, you need help.
 
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I guess pawprint is the only American citizen who has read, internalized and kept all several hundred thousands of pages of federal law, which means he must be a speed reader to have already read those thousands of laws newly in effect since January 1st of this year alone.

For the rest of us, if some federal agent wants to jam you up it wouldn't be hard to find something. There are literally tens of thousands of new laws added to the register every year.

The justice department was once asked to number offenses in the federal code back in the early 80s and ultimately gave up trying to do so. That didn't even include federal regulations NOT passed by Congress by bureaucracies but have the force of law just the same which could number in the hundreds of thousands.

"There is no one in the United States over the age of 18 who cannot be indicted for some federal crime," said John Baker, a retired Louisiana State University law professor who has also tried counting the number of new federal crimes created in recent years. "That is not an exaggeration."--Quote from Wall Street Journal article here:The Many Failed Efforts to Count Nation's Federal Criminal Laws - WSJ.com

As far as the abuse of civil forfeitures, take a look at the first forbes article below. As usual, as soon as lawmakers give some authority to an agency for a narrow purpose like drug control they are soon using it far outside the intent of the program and start rolling up citizens on technicalities...pure abuse. If our current citizenry understood the nature of government as well as the founders did, they would be much more stingy with the authority they are delegating to police agencies.

Civil Forfeiture Laws And The Continued Assault On Private Property - Forbes

Judge Slams DHS for Absurd Cash Seizure » Dispatches from the Culture Wars

Sarah Stillman: The Use and Abuse of Civil Forfeiture : The New Yorker

Keep on thinking its all about fighting crime though.
 
I saw a movie once, in which an SS officer relayed something Hitler said to another character in the show: "Here I stand with rifles, bayonets fixed, there you stand with your law. We shall see who prevails".
 
Were these American citizens.....does our U.S. constitution apply to everyone in the world..... ???..when on American soil.....????


The fact is, the American Constitution doesn't really apply even to us citizens in the strict sense of the word since the Constitution itself is a limitation on government, not individuals. The Constitution lists a few enumerated powers delegated from the people to the government, and lots of limitations on that government. The government is either granted an authority by the Constitution or not, and does not have rights. Therefore the Constitution applies wherever and whenever the US government is using power. The government can violate the Constitution in two ways: by acting without the authority to do so (this is the most common violation and the source of most of our problems), or acting in a way that violates the rights of an individual. Some, but not all, of those individual rights are recognized in the Bill of Rights. Many delegates at the Constitutional convention thought that because they gave the government so few powers, so limited in scope, that specifically listing some of the more important rights of the people were unnecessary and redundant. Imagine that! How bad off we would be without the Bill of Rights? Even the rights specifically recognized by the Constitution are under continual attack by some federal agency at all times, much less the unlisted rights "reserved to the states or the people respectively."
 
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I saw a movie once, in which an SS officer relayed something Hitler said to another character in the show: "Here I stand with rifles, bayonets fixed, there you stand with your law. We shall see who prevails".

Absolutely true...which is why the citizen must ensure he always has a rifle. A citizen without a rifle will soon be called a slave. The Constitution cannot protect us, rather we must protect and preserve it if we want it to have the force of law. It provides the law, we provide the force when necessary to ensure government follows it.
 
KYpatriot, you win, you have convinced me you are 100% right! Foreign citizens coming into the US with large sums of money (cash) in excess of the stated law, one they received a written copy of, should be allowed to continue on their way, because, as you have pointed out, to enforce this law would be a violation of our Constitution!! The same should apply to Americans coming back into America-a little tax evasion never hurt anyone (except every other tax payer that must pick up the tab). And of course let's not forget, some bank got away with some crime (just had to pay a fine), therefore; no one should ever be prosecuted for any like crime! Man you are smart. Thanks for the well thought out and carefully presented lesson on the Constitution, you are quite a student of history and our Constitution. I always thought the Bill Of Rights were individual rights, not to mention all those sections regarding who could vote, who could run for office (age, place of birth etc.), who could be appointed by the POTUS etc. were are directed at individuals, not "the Gov", but once again you have demonstrated you keen knowledge.
 
Why is it all or nothing with you? Why is the choice either let them go or take all their money? If the law is legitimate why did they let them go without charges but keep their money without a trial or hearing...you know, that pesky due process? Why is an American traveling with cash automatically a tax evader? Why is questioning the limits of what our government ought to be doing have to mean that I believe "no one should ever be prosecuted for any like crime?" Why the shrill, condescending, childlike tone? I think I know. My guess is you work at one of these agencies or some kind of law enforcement and simply don't think citizens should even be asking these questions, they should just accept the way its being done by the experts. Who are they to even ask, you're the guy with the badge right? If I'm wrong then I'm not sure where the emotion is coming from, and why we can't just have a reasonable discussion about a random topic in the news with important implications.

By the way, everyone of the requirements for individuals in the Constitution are restrictions related to holding GOVERNMENT office. The Bill of Rights lists specific rights held by the people where government may not infringe, again limiting what GOVERNMENT can and cannot do to us. Not sure what the disconnect is, it is common knowledge that the purpose of the Constitution is to establish limitations on government, not citizens. Therefore it is the measuring stick we use to determine the legality of government action, just like criminal law is used to determine the legality of a citizen's actions, assuming it is even possible to read it all. I don't believe you would seriously disagree with that.

Most of us around here at some point took an oath to the Constitution, not an agency or office we happened to work for. Protecting and defending the principles it contains is the same as protecting ourselves and future generations, is our highest tasking, and what we should be about everyday more than anything else in our job descriptions. That is what we swore to do. I am all for catching bad guys and making the world a safer place, just not at the risk of our primary mission. I'm just trying to keep us mindful of that.

Maybe you don't like that message and its implications or the responsibilities it puts on you, because doing it right makes everything harder. Maybe you don't like me as the messenger. I can live with that, but hope you think about the message. This stuff matters...many men have given everything for those words we so often ignore or refuse to think about. Its not a history lesson or a bumper sticker or a bed time story to me, I believe it and want to honor it so my kids get to experience what a free country ought to be. Seems like nowadays that puts me out of the mainstream, and more often than not many just roll their eyes at the entire subject. I don't care, its a small price to pay if it gets just one more person thinking about liberty, how we got it, and how we keep it or regain it. If you have a snide response to that, go ahead with it, I've heard it before but it won't change me one iota. To me it will be one more indication that as a country we need to start thinking about this a little more.
 
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What an expert you are regarding our constitution! I have an old copy, must not be as up to date as yours. You state, "By the way, everyone of the requirements for individuals in the Constitution are restrictions related to holding GOVERNMENT office. The Bill of Rights lists specific rights held by the people where government may not infringe, again limiting what GOVERNMENT can and cannot do to us. Not sure what the disconnect is, it is common knowledge that the purpose of the Constitution is to establish limitations on government, not citizens.

It shouldn't take you very long to actually read the Constitution, to understand your statement is complete crap! I will list a couple of examples (one would be enough), Section 8""",To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization and uniform law on the subject of Bankruptcies through-out the United States.""" I believe naturalization is something that applies to a person, and they are not being made or appointed to a govt office, just because they were made a naturalized citizen! Bankruptcies: declaring bankruptcies does not get you an automatic govt job!!!
You will also find in Sec 8, "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" Once again, you are way off base, way off-getting a patent does not get you an automatic govt job.
Once again, Your statement, "by the way, everyone of the requirements for individuals in the Constitution are restrictions related to holding GOVERNMENT office", would only be said by one that has trouble reading, has trouble understanding what they have read, or by one that has not read the Constitution at all. May I suggest you get a copy and read it, perhaps a 7th grade study guide may help. The local junior high may be able to lend you one.
 
Why is it all or nothing with you? Why is the choice either let them go or take all their money? If the law is legitimate why did they let them go without charges but keep their money without a trial or hearing...you know, that pesky due process? Why is an American traveling with cash automatically a tax evader? Why is questioning the limits of what our government ought to be doing have to mean that I believe "no one should ever be prosecuted for any like crime?" Why the shrill, condescending, childlike tone? I think I know. My guess is you work at one of these agencies or some kind of law enforcement and simply don't think citizens should even be asking these questions, they should just accept the way its being done by the experts. Who are they to even ask, you're the guy with the badge right? If I'm wrong then I'm not sure where the emotion is coming from, and why we can't just have a reasonable discussion about a random topic in the news with important implications.

By the way, everyone of the requirements for individuals in the Constitution are restrictions related to holding GOVERNMENT office. The Bill of Rights lists specific rights held by the people where government may not infringe, again limiting what GOVERNMENT can and cannot do to us. Not sure what the disconnect is, it is common knowledge that the purpose of the Constitution is to establish limitations on government, not citizens. Therefore it is the measuring stick we use to determine the legality of government action, just like criminal law is used to determine the legality of a citizen's actions, assuming it is even possible to read it all. I don't believe you would seriously disagree with that.

Most of us around here at some point took an oath to the Constitution, not an agency or office we happened to work for. Protecting and defending the principles it contains is the same as protecting ourselves and future generations, is our highest tasking, and what we should be about everyday more than anything else in our job descriptions. That is what we swore to do. I am all for catching bad guys and making the world a safer place, just not at the risk of our primary mission. I'm just trying to keep us mindful of that.

Maybe you don't like that message and its implications or the responsibilities it puts on you, because doing it right makes everything harder. Maybe you don't like me as the messenger. I can live with that, but hope you think about the message. This stuff matters...many men have given everything for those words we so often ignore or refuse to think about. Its not a history lesson or a bumper sticker or a bed time story to me, I believe it and want to honor it so my kids get to experience what a free country ought to be. Seems like nowadays that puts me out of the mainstream, and more often than not many just roll their eyes at the entire subject. I don't care, its a small price to pay if it gets just one more person thinking about liberty, how we got it, and how we keep it or regain it. If you have a snide response to that, go ahead with it, I've heard it before but it won't change me one iota. To me it will be one more indication that as a country we need to start thinking about this a little more.

Well said and beautifully written Sir. Let me know should you decide to run for office somewhere.
 
LOL Pawprint. Ok - I'd still say those provisions are protections for individuals but if you want to view them as limitations thats fine with me. I just like that you went through the Constitution to prove me wrong...I love it actually. Thats exactly what we should all be doing. I hope you have the guts to do the same thing for your supervisor, because with your attitude I am now absolutely certain you have a badge and are lording over someone on a daily basis.
 
I guess when KY is shown facts, those that directly refute his assertion such as the ludicrous statement, "By the way, everyone of the requirements for individuals in the Constitution are restrictions related to holding GOVERNMENT office" he begins to babble, cry, and act as if he didn't or can't understand the facts (perhaps both are true). Other interesting rights for the individual, discussed in our Constitution, having nothing at all to do with holding gov office, are provisions such as, No cruel and inhumane punishment, No involuntary servitude, no bad blood, and as it goes. I hope KY contacts the local elementary school, for a study guide-it may help. BTW most congressional offices will send you a copy of the Constitution, free of charge! You'll be able to actually read it. I keep a copy of The Constitution of the United States, along with the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation on my desk.
 
You keep trying to draw me into a mudslinging contest but I'm not going to do that. I like where this is going. I like discussing what the Constitution means, and am always open to being educated about it even at the risk of ridicule. If you want to claim my point was badly made, I will attempt it again, and you can point out where I am wrong.

My point was that the Constitution is a collection of limitations on government for our protection. It does list some protections for individuals, and it protects those individuals by limiting what government may do to them, like you stated that includes no inhuman punishments among many others. In doing so, the requirements are on government dishing out punishment, not the individual receiving it. As a private citizen, I cannot violate the Constitution and neither can you. You have no free speech in another man's house for instance, he may limit it as he sees fit on his own property because he has the liberty to do so. As agents of government power we CAN violate the Constitution in our official capacities, and an informed citizenry should call us on it if we do.

The individual and the government agent are treated differently because that is how the Constitution attempts to ensure liberty. When you are exercising power as an agent of the government you have authorities granted you by the people through the Constitution to do certain things, and to do them in accordance with the principles in the Constitution. You don't have the right to do them, it is power delegated that is invalid if used wrongly. That is why any President of the United States may not silence me from the oval office even if he doesn't like my criticism, but can do exactly that as a private individual if I am standing in his home.Ordering me to shut up or leave his home he is acting within the rights due him as a citizen of the United States, but shutting me up in the public square as President of the United States exceeds the authority granted him for a time by the Constitution. The same man, strengthened at home but limited in power in office...and that is the point of the whole document.
 
You keep trying to draw me into a mudslinging contest but I'm not going to do that. I like where this is going. I like discussing what the Constitution means, and am always open to being educated about it even at the risk of ridicule. If you want to claim my point was badly made, I will attempt it again, and you can point out where I am wrong.

My point was that the Constitution is a collection of limitations on government for our protection. It does list some protections for individuals, and it protects those individuals by limiting what government may do to them, like you stated that includes no inhuman punishments among many others. In doing so, the requirements are on government dishing out punishment, not the individual receiving it. As a private citizen, I cannot violate the Constitution and neither can you. You have no free speech in another man's house for instance, he may limit it as he sees fit on his own property because he has the liberty to do so. As agents of government power we CAN violate the Constitution in our official capacities, and an informed citizenry should call us on it if we do.

The individual and the government agent are treated differently because that is how the Constitution attempts to ensure liberty. When you are exercising power as an agent of the government you have authorities granted you by the people through the Constitution to do certain things, and to do them in accordance with the principles in the Constitution. You don't have the right to do them, it is power delegated that is invalid if used wrongly. That is why any President of the United States may not silence me from the oval office even if he doesn't like my criticism, but can do exactly that as a private individual if I am standing in his home.Ordering me to shut up or leave his home he is acting within the rights due him as a citizen of the United States, but shutting me up in the public square as President of the United States exceeds the authority granted him for a time by the Constitution. The same man, strengthened at home but limited in power in office...and that is the point of the whole document.

I guess you are retracting your earlier assertion, """By the way, everyone of the requirements for individuals in the Constitution are restrictions related to holding GOVERNMENT office"""!!! This has been the very core of your argument, my how the worm has turned. Regarding your statement that the pres cannot silence you etc., very dramatic, but the truth is, the Govt can silence you, for example, try advocating insurrection as part of your criticism, the Constitution-the core of America is not a suicide pact, we have the right to protect ourselves from an insurrection, or the distribution of child pornography (freedom of the press, expression stops there).
As you are a keen expert on the Constitution, you must be aware one of the specific powers/responsibilities of the Federal Gov, is to collect taxes-" The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, ..." It is clear to the Federal Gov, working within the limitations and responsibilities defined in the Constitution, has seen fit to collect taxes on monies over a certain figure coming into the US. The couple in question, was aware of this, given a copy of the law, tried to beat the system, got caught, and lost. What would have happened if they had in fact not tried to lie, and in fact declared the value of the numerous envelopes of money they were carrying? They would have paid a small tax, or numerous other things, but they chose, fully informed, to try to beat the system. They tried to beat the Constitution, as the Constitution gives congress the power to lay and collect taxes, Duties...congress passed the laws governing the amount of cash that could be brought into our country without penalty. It looks like the Constitution called for it, the congress passed it, the authorities enforced it. This is not a "grey area", Section 8, The Constitution of the United States, is pretty clear on this matter.
 
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I don't know why you insist on making this about me but again my argument has not changed. The Constitution is for restricting government, not us! I don't know how to make that clear to you, or if you are so desperate to make me out to be wrong you are purposely being obtuse. Let's try this: if the Constitution was meant to restrict individuals instead of those in government then surely you can find examples of individual citizens who have been convicted of violating the Constitution. The only examples you will find are those violating the Constitution in their official capacities as agents of government. Individual offenses are covered under criminal law, you cannot be hauled into court for violating the Constitution as an individual in your private capacity. But I think you know all that, so I'm not sure why you are arguing with me unless I was right in post 24 about why you don't like this entire line of discussion. But to continue, and try and elevate this above a pissing match, I'll respond to your assertions.

No, the president cannot silence me. I am free to say whatever I want in the public square without prior restraints on my language. The government cannot muzzle me to prevent me from speaking in public for fear I will call for insurrection anymore than they can pass a law that everyone entering a theater will be gagged to prevent someone from falsely yelling "fire." I am however responsible for my speech, and if that freedom is used unlawfully I can and should be held responsible for it. Similarly, I have a right to bear arms. I believe that just like freedom of speech there should be no prior restraint on that right, and that I shouldn't be required to get a permit to concealed carry for example. That should never be taken to mean however that if I abuse that freedom by shooting somebody without proper cause that I shouldn't be held responsible for it. Liberty gives us the rope to either use to our advantage or to hang ourselves with. It gives us individual responsibility. Unfortunately as soon as someone abuses their freedoms then someone thinks we should give up some freedom and place prior restraints on everyone instead of dealing with that individual. Some wannabe dictator or empire builder in government is always willing to oblige that request. The Constitution is supposed to mitigate that human tendency, to limit government power and keep us from over-reacting and giving up all our freedoms in our desire to keep order.

With respect to this couple, the consequences of their actions should be theirs, not mine. My focus is on how far government should be allowed to go to enforce the law, because that is what may affect me. Just because the government "sees fit" to enact and enforce a certain law doesn't mean I dont get to question it, or for that matter mean it is even Constitutional to begin with. Laws are being passed faster than they can even be read, even by the legislators who are passing them! If you are ok with that I can't help it, but I don't have to be ok with it, and think more of us ought to be turning a critical eye on what is being done "for our own good" as they would say. Personally I don't think it is ok for government to ask how much money I am traveling with or force me to tell them. You disagree. That's fine, honest men can debate that in courts we have a process for that. This issue and more like will end up in the courts as government continues to destroy privacy and intrude in every aspect of our lives. What I don't understand, is why an honest man would try and squelch the debate or demonize someone for even asking the question. So I conclude that such questions are threatening to those in government, and that they don't like to explain themselves even though they are supposed to be public servants respectful of the limitations we have placed on them. I don't care about offending such men.
 
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So why ask?
Travelers to the United States may bring in any amount of cash or negotiable monetary instruments they wish. Amounts over $10,000 U.S. must be declared in advance on the Customs Declaration Form (Form 6059B). There are severe penalties for non-compliance, including large fines, and the money may be confiscated.
If you are bringing in more than $10,000, you also will need to fill out a Currency Reporting Form (FinCen 105) as you pass through Customs and Immigration. Larger amounts of cash are reported to the IRS to cut down on money laundering and crime prevention.

There are also red flags for those "visiting" that do not have sufficient funds. It is quite obvious that large amounts of cash (un-declared) can easily be used for criminal purposes, the "un-traceable" nature (especially when in the form of numerous different currencies, as was this case) goes around the banking system. Tax fraud, drug trafficking, or a 9/11 perpetrator taking "flying lessons", etc. is less traceable, and much harder to stop, when the traceability is hindered. Needless to say, they could have brought every penny in, had they been honest and declared the monies. The mere fact that these non citizens were trying to bring in a large amount cash, in various envelopes, in several different currencies and lying about it (in fact changing their reporting form) speaks for itself. The argument that in "their country" they don't trust the police, or in "their country" a witch doctor told them evil spirits will get them if they tell the truth to the U.S. Customs, is a bogus argument. Billions of dollars worth of contraband, to include money is seized every year at the borders, not just our borders. Most civilized countries have laws that require the declaration of goods, monies, people etc. prior to entry-this is not a U.S. only concept. In fact, the legality of a country collecting taxes and duties was around for thousands of years prior to formation of our country. It is even stated in our Constitution-there are those that believe in the Constitution and those that don't (these are usually the pick the parts you like types, poor examples of Americans to be sure).
 
So why ask?

So they have an excuse to take it away from you.
If you don't tell them, they get to grab it there and then for not telling them
If you tell them, they now don't have to look and can try to take it for some other reason
If they can't find a reason right then, they then know who you are so they can send somebody or the tax man to get it later.

Apparently they don't want you having physical possession of your hard earned money and would love to make sure it is under the control of one of their buddies at a bank to keep and make money off of. (Besides it's so much easier to grab everybody's money then... just look at Cyprus and the EU & read the plans from the IMF for sudden wealth "levies")

but of course... they say "drugs" or "terrorists" and everybody snaps their heels together, gives the correct salute & forgets all about the police state being setup all around them.
 
So they have an excuse to take it away from you.
If you don't tell them, they get to grab it there and then for not telling them
If you tell them, they now don't have to look and can try to take it for some other reason
If they can't find a reason right then, they then know who you are so they can send somebody or the tax man to get it later.

Apparently they don't want you having physical possession of your hard earned money and would love to make sure it is under the control of one of their buddies at a bank to keep and make money off of. (Besides it's so much easier to grab everybody's money then... just look at Cyprus and the EU & read the plans from the IMF for sudden wealth "levies")

but of course... they say "drugs" or "terrorists" and everybody snaps their heels together, gives the correct salute & forgets all about the police state being setup all around them.

It's this, in a nutshell. Some people just can't seem to grasp that.
 
Travelers to the United States may bring in any amount of cash or negotiable monetary instruments they wish. Amounts over $10,000 U.S. must be declared in advance on the Customs Declaration Form (Form 6059B). There are severe penalties for non-compliance, including large fines, and the money may be confiscated.
If you are bringing in more than $10,000, you also will need to fill out a Currency Reporting Form (FinCen 105) as you pass through Customs and Immigration. Larger amounts of cash are reported to the IRS to cut down on money laundering and crime prevention.

There are also red flags for those "visiting" that do not have sufficient funds. It is quite obvious that large amounts of cash (un-declared) can easily be used for criminal purposes, the "un-traceable" nature (especially when in the form of numerous different currencies, as was this case) goes around the banking system. Tax fraud, drug trafficking, or a 9/11 perpetrator taking "flying lessons", etc. is less traceable, and much harder to stop, when the traceability is hindered. Needless to say, they could have brought every penny in, had they been honest and declared the monies. The mere fact that these non citizens were trying to bring in a large amount cash, in various envelopes, in several different currencies and lying about it (in fact changing their reporting form) speaks for itself. The argument that in "their country" they don't trust the police, or in "their country" a witch doctor told them evil spirits will get them if they tell the truth to the U.S. Customs, is a bogus argument. Billions of dollars worth of contraband, to include money is seized every year at the borders, not just our borders. Most civilized countries have laws that require the declaration of goods, monies, people etc. prior to entry-this is not a U.S. only concept. In fact, the legality of a country collecting taxes and duties was around for thousands of years prior to formation of our country. It is even stated in our Constitution-there are those that believe in the Constitution and those that don't (these are usually the pick the parts you like types, poor examples of Americans to be sure).


Rhetorical question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia