Re: For the new guys
Hang around with Old Guys, We Know Stuff.
AFS
Hang around with Old Guys, We Know Stuff.
AFS
Re: For the new guys
The " Basic Rifle Marksmanship" link is dead.
The " Basic Rifle Marksmanship" link is dead.
Re: For the new guys
jim,
I added it to page 1, and here it is again
<span style="font-weight: bold">Basic rifle Marksmanship</span>
CBS Definition: CBS (Cold Bore Shot) is the first shot fired for the day from your rifle through a dirty bore, or from a barrel that has been fired and allowed to cool for at least 20 minutes.
CCBS Definition: CCBS (Clean Cold Bore Shot) is the first shot fired for the day from your rifle through a CLEAN bore.
Learning how your rifle will fire its first shot from a cold and "dirty or clean" bore is especially useful to hunters and tactical shooters, who by nature will experience long time intervals between shots. To become a better marksman The CBS CCBS shot is VERY IMPORTANT to your rifle data.
basic principles of marksmanship
The purpose of any good shooting position is to support the two basic principles of marksmanship
 Sight Alignment
Sight Alignment with iron sights is centering the tip of the front sight post in the center of the rear sight aperture both vertically and horizontally, and aligning this relationship with the shooter’s dominant eye.
FM23-10 Chapter 3
Sight Alignment With telescopic sights, sight alignment is the relationship between the cross hairs (reticle) and a full field of view as seen by the sniper.
The sniper must place his head so that a full field of view fills the tube, with no dark shadows or crescents to cause inaccurate shots. He centers the reticle in a full field of view, ensuring the vertical cross hair is straight up and down so the rifle is not canted. Again, the center is easiest for the sniper to locate and allows for consistent reticle placement.
Once this alignment has taken place the shooter should maintain the same head position and head pressure. This will help build consistency from shot to shot.
SIGHT PICTURE
Sight Picture for iron sights is the placement of the tip of the front sight post in relation to the target while maintaining sight alignment.
FM23-10 Chapter 3
Sight Picture. With telescopic sights, the sight picture is the relationship between the reticle and full field of view and the target as seen by the sniper. The sniper centers the reticle in a full field of view. He then places the reticle center of the largest visible mass of the target. The center of mass of the target is easiest for the sniper to locate, and it surrounds the intended point of impact with a maximum amount of target area.
There are many different ways to introduce a target. These different views are called holds. The different holds are not incorrect; they are just an individual’s way of viewing the target/sight relationship. The shooter should experiment and use what is most comfortable to them.
Correct sight alignment and correct sight picture will result in an impact on the target as desired.
 Trigger Control is the skillful manipulation of the trigger that causes the rifle to fire without disturbing sight alignment and sight picture.
Controlling the trigger is a mental process while pulling the trigger is a mechanical process.
Three elements of a Steady position:
 Support (Artificial & Bone)
 Muscular Relaxation
 Natural Point of Aim
The most stable platform in the world is the ground. What you have to do is; transfer the stability of the ground into your position through the use of artificial and bone support
Muscular Relaxation
 If you have good support, your muscles will be relaxed
 Less muscle tension means less movement
 Comfort equals relaxed
natural point of aim:
 Where your position is naturally pointing
 Your position must be adjusted so that your natural point of aim (NPA) is aligned with the target
This is what I do. Not the only way to skin the cat!!!
 I locate the target
 Place the weapon to point at the target and get to battery.
 At this time I look though my sights and see where the weapon is aimed at.
 Now I ajust my HOLE BODY AND WEAPON till the weapon and sights are pointing at the target.
 Close my eyes; reopen my eyes and if I need to move left or right I do so.
 Once that is done. I ajust the front suport " Sling, Bi-pod, sand bag, what ever it is" till my evevation is right on.
Now my NPA is right on target.
The following is a part of a class from the AMU that I have on NPA.
ADJUSTING NATURAL POINT OF AIM
1) Natural point of aim is the point at which the rifle sights settle when bone support and muscular relaxation are achieved. When in a shooting position with proper sight alignment, the position of the tip of the front sight post will indicate the natural point of aim. When completely relaxed the tip of the front sight post should rest on the desired aiming point.
2) If the natural point of aim is above or below the desired aiming point: move your body slightly forward or back using your non-firing elbow as a pivot point.
A) Pushing your body forward causes the sights to settle lower on the target.
B) Pulling your body back causes the sights to settle higher on the target.
3) Another way to adjust height is by varying the placement of the non-firing hand in relation to the handguard.
A) Moving the non-firing hand forward lowers the muzzle of the rifle.
B) Moving the non-firing hand back raises the muzzle of the rifle.
4) Varying the placement of the buttstock in the pocket of the shoulder will raise or lower the muzzle of the rifle.
A) Moving the stock higher in the pocket of the shoulder lowers the muzzle of the target.
B) Moving the stock lower in the pocket of the shoulder will raise the muzzle of the rifle.
5) The natural point of aim can be adjusted left or right. In the prone position by adjusting the entire position left or right in relation to the target. Keep in mind that when adjusting the position that the non-firing elbow remains in the same place and is used as the pivot point.
The inverted elbow support position is not as hard as it sounds. All it is, is this:
You want the hand guard of the rifle to rest in the “V” formed by the thumb and index finger of the non-firing hand. The non-firing wrist is straight with the rifle resting across the heel of the hand. The fingers can curl against the stock, but should apply only the minimum amount of pressure needed to prevent the hand from slipping on the hand guard.
Barrel is centered over crease in palm, wrist is very close to being directly under barrel. The non-firing elbow should be positioned as close to directly underneath the rifle as possible to create bone support and a consistent resistance to recoil. The non-firing elbow must be inverted in order to obtain a good prone position.
As these pic's show me doing at the SDM Instructor course.
6 Factors of a Solid Position
 Rifle Butt
 Firing Hand
 Stock Weld
 Elbows
 Breathing
Rifle Butt:
 Place the rifle butt firmly into the pocket formed in the shoulder. This reduces the effect of recoil, helps steady the rifle, and prevents the rifle butt from slipping in the shoulder during firing. The rifle should be brought to the head when placing it in the shoulder and not the head to the rifle. The closer the butt stock is place toward the neck, the more upright and vertical the head will be.
Firing Hand
 Placed high on the grip
 Firm handshake grip
 Trigger finger should be placed naturally on the trigger
 Proper placement of the firing hand on the grip allows the trigger to be moved straight to the rear without disturbing sight alignment.
Stock Weld
 This is where your face contacts the stock
 Head should be vertical and upright
 Consistent from shot to shot
 Purpose is to achieve proper achieve eye-sight alignment
 Look for excess skin forming a roll
Elbows
 The non-firing elbow should be positioned as close to directly underneath the rifle as possible to create bone support and a consistent resistance to recoil. The non-firing elbow must be inverted in order to obtain a good prone position.
 The firing elbow should be positioned naturally to provide balance to the position and create a pocket in the shoulder for the rifle butt
Breathing
 Breathing causes movement of the chest and a corresponding movement in the rifle and sights. To minimize this movement and the effect it has on your aim, learn to control your breathing and extend your natural respiratory pause for a few seconds during the final aiming and firing process. Do not extend your natural respiratory pause for an uncomfortable period. This can cause blurry vision and will decrease your ability to deliver well-aimed shots.
EFFECTS OF LIGHT
Light does not affect the trajectory of the bullet; however, it does affect the way the shooter sees the target through the scope. This effect can be compared to the refraction (bending) of light through a medium, such as a prism or a fish bowl. The same effect, although not as drastic, can be observed on a day with high humidity and with sunlight from high angles. The only way the sniper can adjust for this effect is to refer to past firing recorded in the rifle data book. He or she can then compare different light and humidity conditions and their effect on marksmanship. Light may also affect firing on unknown distance ranges since it affects range determination capabilities.
EFFECTS OF TEMPERATURE
Temperature affects the firer, ammunition, and density of the air. When ammunition sits in direct sunlight, the bum rate of powder is increased, resulting in greater muzzle velocity and higher impact. The greatest effect is on the density of the air. As the temperature rises, the air density is lowered. Since there is less resistance, velocity increases and once again the point of impact rise. This is in relation to the temperature at which the rifle was zeroed, if the shooter zeros at 50 degrees
and he is now firing at 90 degrees, the point of impact rises considerably. How high it rises is best determined once again by past firing recorded in the rifles data book. The general role, however, is that when the rifle is zeroed, a 20-degree increase in temperature will raise the point of impact by one minute; conversely, a 20-degree decrease will drop the point of impact by one minute.
EFFECTS OF HUMIDITY By Greg Langelius
As long as the humidity is in vapor form (oxygen and hydrogen molecules) it displaces air of a higher mass (oxygen and nitrogen, nearly in total), thereby decreasing overall density, and therefore offering reduced air resistance. The projectile covers the overall distance in less time, resulting in less drop. Drop is a factor of time-of-flight, period. Reduce the time, you also reduce the drop.
Therefore as humidity increases, POI is higher, and as it is reduced, POI is lower.
Now then, lest we get carried away with this, let us also recognize that the effect of humidity is actually pretty slight. I would suggest that a rough estimate of the overall difference between 0% humidity and 100% humidity would probably account for less than 1 MOA difference in drop at 1Kyd.
RANGE ESTIMATION METHODS
100-Yard / Meter-Unit-of-Measure Method. To use this methodThe shooter must be able to visualize a distance of 100 yards / meters on the ground. For ranges up to 500 yards / meters the shooter determines the number of 100-meter increments between the two objects it wishes to measure. Beyond 500 yards / meters, it must select a point halfway to the object and determine the number of 100-meter increments to the halfway point, then double it to find the range to the object.
Appearance-of-Object Method. This method is a means of determining range by the size and other characteristic details of the object. To use the appearance-of-object method with any degree of accuracy, the Shooter must be familiar with the characteristic details of the objects
as they appear at various ranges.
Range-Card Method. The shooter uses a range card to quickly determine ranges throughout the target area. Once the target is seen, the shooter determines where it is located on the card and then reads the proper range to the target. Also you can label your targets as "TRP" Target Reference Point.
Combination Method. Some times only one method of range estimation may not be enough for a shooter. Terrain with much dead space limits the accuracy of the 100-yard / meter method. Poor visibility limits the use of the appearance-of-object method. However, by using a combination of two or more methods to determine an unknown range, an experienced shooter should arrive at an estimated range close to the true range.
What the Mil-dot is and how it works
A milliradian is a unit of measure derived from the degrees of a circle.
(Note: in a 360 degree circle, there are 6283.2 milliradians, or 17.45 milliradians per degree.)
This means that a milliradian will subtend different distances at different ranges. For example:
The subtension of 1 mil equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards or 36 inches at 1,000 yards. In metric units, the correspondence is 1 mil equals 10 centimeters at 100 meters or 1 meter at 1,000 meters.
Knowing this subtension and knowing the size of the target (or a reference object near the target) allows the distance to the target to be estimated with considerable accuracy.
Mil-Relation Formula.
The mil-relation formula is the preferred method of range estimation. This method uses a mil-scale reticule located in binoculars, spotting scopes or rifle scopes with a Mil-dot recital. The shooter must know the target size in inches yards or meters. Once the target size is known, the team then compares the target size to the mil-scale reticule and uses the following formula:
Size of target in yards x 1,000 / Size of target in MIL's = range in yds
Size of target in inches x 27.778 / Size of target in MIL's = range in yds
Size of target in inches x 25.4 / Size of target in MIL's = range in meters
MIL-DOT HOLD OVERS AND UNDERS
MOA data / 3.438 = mil hold over/under
This is how you do it in steps:
1. Shoot your dope to ranges you will use your rifle at. Record your dope in MOA.
2. Pick a range as the set constant on the scope.
3. follow this conversion to get hold unders.
4. Follow this conversion th get hold overs
EXAMPLE MOA
Step 1.
100yds ZERO
150yds .75 MOA
200yds 1.75 MOA
250yds 3.50 MOA
300yds 4.25 MOA
350yds 5.75 MOA
400yds 7.25 MOA
450yds 8.50 MOA
500yds 10.75 MOA
550yds 12.25 MOA
600yds 14.00 MOA
700yds 18.00MOA
Step 2.
I WILL USE: 500yds as my set constant on the scope.
Step 3.
500yd MOA - 450yd MOA = MOA between 500 yds and 450yds / 3.438 = Mil-dot hold under
10.75- 8.50= 2.25 MOA
2.25MOA / 3.438= .65 Mil-dot Hold under
So if I want to shoot the 450yd target with 500yds dialed in the scope. All I need to do is hold .65 mills under and I will hit the 450yd target.
Step 4.
550yd MOA - 500yd MOA = MOA between 550 yds and 500yds / 3.438 = Mil-dot hold over
12.25 - 10.75 = 1.5 MOA
1.5MOA / 3.438 = .43 Mil-dot hold over
ANGLE FIRING from FM 23-10
3-11. ANGLE FIRING
Most practice firing conducted by the sniper team involves the use of military range facilities, which are relatively flat. However, as a sniper being deployed to other regions of the world, the chance exists for operating in a mountainous or urban environment. This requires target engagements at higher and lower elevations. Unless the sniper takes corrective action, bullet impact will be above the point of aim. How high the bullet hits is determined by the range and angle to the target (Table 3-3). The amount of elevation change applied to the telescope of the rifle for angle firing is known as slope dope.
FM 23-10 Chapter 3
Section III
EFFECTS OF WEATHER
For the highly trained sniper, the effects of weather are the main causes of error in the strike of the bullet. Wind, mirage, light, temperature, and humidity affect the bullet, the sniper, or both. Some effects are minor; however, sniping is often done in extremes of weather and all effects must be considered.
3-12. WIND CLASSIFICATION
Wind poses the biggest problem for the sniper. The effect that wind has on the bullet increases with range. This is due mainly to the slowing of the bullet's velocity combined with a longer flight time. This allows the wind to have a greater effect on the round as distances increase. The result is a loss of stability.
a. Wind also has a considerable effect on the sniper. The stronger the wind, the more difficult it is for him to hold the rifle steady. This can be partly offset by training, conditioning and the use of supported positions.
b. Since the sniper must know how much effect the wind will have on the bullet, he must be able to classify the wind. The best method is to use the clock system (Figure 3-19). With the sniper at the center of the clock and the target at 12 o'clock, the wind is assigned three values: full, half, and no value. Full value means that the force of the wind will have a full effect on the flight of the bullet. These winds come from 3 and 9 o'clock. Half value means that a wind at the same speed, but from 1,2,4,5,7,8, 10, and 11 o'clock, will move the bullet only half as much as a full-value wind. No value means that a wind from 6 or 12 o'clock will have little or no effect on the flight of the bullet.
3-13. WIND VELOCITY
Before adjusting the sight to compensate for wind, the sniper must determine wind direction and velocity. He may use certain indicators to accomplish this. These are range flags, smoke, trees, grass, rain, and the sense of feel. However, the preferred method of determining wind direction and velocity is reading mirage (see paragraph d below). In most cases, wind direction can be determined simply by observing the indicators.
a. A common method of estimating the velocity of the wind during training is to watch the range flag (Figure 3-20). The sniper determines the angle between the flag and pole, in degrees, then divides by the constant number 4. The result gives the approximate velocity in miles per hour.
b. If no flag is visible, the sniper holds a piece of paper, grass, cotton, or some other light material at shoulder level, then drops it. He then points directly at the spot where it lands and divides the angle between his body and arm by the constant number 4. This gives him the approximate wind velocity in miles per hour.
c. If these methods cannot be used, the following information is helpful in determining velocity. Winds under 3 miles per hour can barely be felt, although smoke will drift. A 3- to 5-mile-per-hour wind can barely be felt on the face. With a 5- to 8-mile-per-hour wind, the leaves in the trees are in constant motion, and with a 12- to 15-mile-per-hour wind, small trees begin to sway.
d. A mirage is a reflection of the heat through layers of air at different temperatures and density as seen on a warm day (Figure 3-21). With the telescope, the sniper can see a mirage as long as there is a difference in ground and air temperatures. Proper reading of the mirage enables the sniper to estimate wind speed and direction with a high degree of accuracy. The sniper uses the M49 observation telescope to read the mirage. Since the wind nearest to midrange has the greatest effect on the bullet, he tries to determine velocity at that point. He can do this in one of two ways:
(1) He focuses on an object at midrange, then places the scope back onto the target without readjusting the focus.
(2) He can also focus on the target, then back off the focus one-quarter turn counterclockwise. This makes the target appear fuzzy, but the mirage will be clear.
e. As observed through the telescope, the mirage appears to move with the same velocity as the wind, except when blowing straight into or away from the scope. Then, the mirage gives the appearance of moving straight upward with no lateral movement. This is called a boiling mirage. A boiling mirage may also be seen when the wind is constantly changing direction. For example, a full-value wind blowing from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock suddenly changes direction. The mirage will appear to stop moving from left to right and present a boiling appearance. When this occurs, the inexperienced observer directs the sniper to fire with the "0" wind. As the sniper fires, the wind begins blowing from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock, causing the bullet to miss the target therefore, firing in a "boil" can hamper shot placement. Unless there is a no-value wind, the sniper must wait until the boil disappears. In general, changes in the velocity of the wind, up to about 12 miles per hour, can be readily determined by observing the mirage. Beyond that speed, the movement of the mirage is too fast for detection of minor changes.
3-14. CONVERSION OF WIND VELOCITY TO MINUTES OF ANGLE
All telescopic sights have windage adjustments that are graduated in minutes of angle or fractions thereof. A minute of angle is 1/60th of a degree (Figure 3-22). This equals about 1 inch (1.145 inches) for every 100 meters.
EXAMPLE
1 MOA = 2 inches at 200 meters
1 MOA = 5 inches at 500 meters
a. Snipers use minutes of angle (Figure 3-22) to determine and adjust the elevation and windage needed on the weapon's scope. After finding the wind direction and velocity in miles per hour, the sniper must then convert it into minutes of angle, using the wind formula as a rule of thumb only. The wind formula is--
If the target is 700 meters away and the wind velocity is 10 mph, the formula is--
This determines the number of minutes for a full-value wind. For a half-value wind, the 5.38 would be divided in half.
b. The observer makes his own adjustment estimations, then compares them to the wind conversion table, which can be a valuable training tool. He must not rely on this table; if it is lost, his ability to perform the mission could be severely hampered. Until the observer gains skill in estimating wind speed and computing sight changes, he may refer to Table 3-4.
jim,
I added it to page 1, and here it is again
<span style="font-weight: bold">Basic rifle Marksmanship</span>
CBS Definition: CBS (Cold Bore Shot) is the first shot fired for the day from your rifle through a dirty bore, or from a barrel that has been fired and allowed to cool for at least 20 minutes.
CCBS Definition: CCBS (Clean Cold Bore Shot) is the first shot fired for the day from your rifle through a CLEAN bore.
Learning how your rifle will fire its first shot from a cold and "dirty or clean" bore is especially useful to hunters and tactical shooters, who by nature will experience long time intervals between shots. To become a better marksman The CBS CCBS shot is VERY IMPORTANT to your rifle data.
basic principles of marksmanship
The purpose of any good shooting position is to support the two basic principles of marksmanship
 Sight Alignment
Sight Alignment with iron sights is centering the tip of the front sight post in the center of the rear sight aperture both vertically and horizontally, and aligning this relationship with the shooter’s dominant eye.
FM23-10 Chapter 3
Sight Alignment With telescopic sights, sight alignment is the relationship between the cross hairs (reticle) and a full field of view as seen by the sniper.
The sniper must place his head so that a full field of view fills the tube, with no dark shadows or crescents to cause inaccurate shots. He centers the reticle in a full field of view, ensuring the vertical cross hair is straight up and down so the rifle is not canted. Again, the center is easiest for the sniper to locate and allows for consistent reticle placement.
Once this alignment has taken place the shooter should maintain the same head position and head pressure. This will help build consistency from shot to shot.
SIGHT PICTURE
Sight Picture for iron sights is the placement of the tip of the front sight post in relation to the target while maintaining sight alignment.
FM23-10 Chapter 3
Sight Picture. With telescopic sights, the sight picture is the relationship between the reticle and full field of view and the target as seen by the sniper. The sniper centers the reticle in a full field of view. He then places the reticle center of the largest visible mass of the target. The center of mass of the target is easiest for the sniper to locate, and it surrounds the intended point of impact with a maximum amount of target area.
There are many different ways to introduce a target. These different views are called holds. The different holds are not incorrect; they are just an individual’s way of viewing the target/sight relationship. The shooter should experiment and use what is most comfortable to them.
Correct sight alignment and correct sight picture will result in an impact on the target as desired.
 Trigger Control is the skillful manipulation of the trigger that causes the rifle to fire without disturbing sight alignment and sight picture.
Controlling the trigger is a mental process while pulling the trigger is a mechanical process.
Three elements of a Steady position:
 Support (Artificial & Bone)
 Muscular Relaxation
 Natural Point of Aim
The most stable platform in the world is the ground. What you have to do is; transfer the stability of the ground into your position through the use of artificial and bone support
Muscular Relaxation
 If you have good support, your muscles will be relaxed
 Less muscle tension means less movement
 Comfort equals relaxed
natural point of aim:
 Where your position is naturally pointing
 Your position must be adjusted so that your natural point of aim (NPA) is aligned with the target
This is what I do. Not the only way to skin the cat!!!
 I locate the target
 Place the weapon to point at the target and get to battery.
 At this time I look though my sights and see where the weapon is aimed at.
 Now I ajust my HOLE BODY AND WEAPON till the weapon and sights are pointing at the target.
 Close my eyes; reopen my eyes and if I need to move left or right I do so.
 Once that is done. I ajust the front suport " Sling, Bi-pod, sand bag, what ever it is" till my evevation is right on.
Now my NPA is right on target.
The following is a part of a class from the AMU that I have on NPA.
ADJUSTING NATURAL POINT OF AIM
1) Natural point of aim is the point at which the rifle sights settle when bone support and muscular relaxation are achieved. When in a shooting position with proper sight alignment, the position of the tip of the front sight post will indicate the natural point of aim. When completely relaxed the tip of the front sight post should rest on the desired aiming point.
2) If the natural point of aim is above or below the desired aiming point: move your body slightly forward or back using your non-firing elbow as a pivot point.
A) Pushing your body forward causes the sights to settle lower on the target.
B) Pulling your body back causes the sights to settle higher on the target.
3) Another way to adjust height is by varying the placement of the non-firing hand in relation to the handguard.
A) Moving the non-firing hand forward lowers the muzzle of the rifle.
B) Moving the non-firing hand back raises the muzzle of the rifle.
4) Varying the placement of the buttstock in the pocket of the shoulder will raise or lower the muzzle of the rifle.
A) Moving the stock higher in the pocket of the shoulder lowers the muzzle of the target.
B) Moving the stock lower in the pocket of the shoulder will raise the muzzle of the rifle.
5) The natural point of aim can be adjusted left or right. In the prone position by adjusting the entire position left or right in relation to the target. Keep in mind that when adjusting the position that the non-firing elbow remains in the same place and is used as the pivot point.
The inverted elbow support position is not as hard as it sounds. All it is, is this:
You want the hand guard of the rifle to rest in the “V” formed by the thumb and index finger of the non-firing hand. The non-firing wrist is straight with the rifle resting across the heel of the hand. The fingers can curl against the stock, but should apply only the minimum amount of pressure needed to prevent the hand from slipping on the hand guard.
Barrel is centered over crease in palm, wrist is very close to being directly under barrel. The non-firing elbow should be positioned as close to directly underneath the rifle as possible to create bone support and a consistent resistance to recoil. The non-firing elbow must be inverted in order to obtain a good prone position.
As these pic's show me doing at the SDM Instructor course.
6 Factors of a Solid Position
 Rifle Butt
 Firing Hand
 Stock Weld
 Elbows
 Breathing
Rifle Butt:
 Place the rifle butt firmly into the pocket formed in the shoulder. This reduces the effect of recoil, helps steady the rifle, and prevents the rifle butt from slipping in the shoulder during firing. The rifle should be brought to the head when placing it in the shoulder and not the head to the rifle. The closer the butt stock is place toward the neck, the more upright and vertical the head will be.
Firing Hand
 Placed high on the grip
 Firm handshake grip
 Trigger finger should be placed naturally on the trigger
 Proper placement of the firing hand on the grip allows the trigger to be moved straight to the rear without disturbing sight alignment.
Stock Weld
 This is where your face contacts the stock
 Head should be vertical and upright
 Consistent from shot to shot
 Purpose is to achieve proper achieve eye-sight alignment
 Look for excess skin forming a roll
Elbows
 The non-firing elbow should be positioned as close to directly underneath the rifle as possible to create bone support and a consistent resistance to recoil. The non-firing elbow must be inverted in order to obtain a good prone position.
 The firing elbow should be positioned naturally to provide balance to the position and create a pocket in the shoulder for the rifle butt
Breathing
 Breathing causes movement of the chest and a corresponding movement in the rifle and sights. To minimize this movement and the effect it has on your aim, learn to control your breathing and extend your natural respiratory pause for a few seconds during the final aiming and firing process. Do not extend your natural respiratory pause for an uncomfortable period. This can cause blurry vision and will decrease your ability to deliver well-aimed shots.
EFFECTS OF LIGHT
Light does not affect the trajectory of the bullet; however, it does affect the way the shooter sees the target through the scope. This effect can be compared to the refraction (bending) of light through a medium, such as a prism or a fish bowl. The same effect, although not as drastic, can be observed on a day with high humidity and with sunlight from high angles. The only way the sniper can adjust for this effect is to refer to past firing recorded in the rifle data book. He or she can then compare different light and humidity conditions and their effect on marksmanship. Light may also affect firing on unknown distance ranges since it affects range determination capabilities.
EFFECTS OF TEMPERATURE
Temperature affects the firer, ammunition, and density of the air. When ammunition sits in direct sunlight, the bum rate of powder is increased, resulting in greater muzzle velocity and higher impact. The greatest effect is on the density of the air. As the temperature rises, the air density is lowered. Since there is less resistance, velocity increases and once again the point of impact rise. This is in relation to the temperature at which the rifle was zeroed, if the shooter zeros at 50 degrees
and he is now firing at 90 degrees, the point of impact rises considerably. How high it rises is best determined once again by past firing recorded in the rifles data book. The general role, however, is that when the rifle is zeroed, a 20-degree increase in temperature will raise the point of impact by one minute; conversely, a 20-degree decrease will drop the point of impact by one minute.
EFFECTS OF HUMIDITY By Greg Langelius
As long as the humidity is in vapor form (oxygen and hydrogen molecules) it displaces air of a higher mass (oxygen and nitrogen, nearly in total), thereby decreasing overall density, and therefore offering reduced air resistance. The projectile covers the overall distance in less time, resulting in less drop. Drop is a factor of time-of-flight, period. Reduce the time, you also reduce the drop.
Therefore as humidity increases, POI is higher, and as it is reduced, POI is lower.
Now then, lest we get carried away with this, let us also recognize that the effect of humidity is actually pretty slight. I would suggest that a rough estimate of the overall difference between 0% humidity and 100% humidity would probably account for less than 1 MOA difference in drop at 1Kyd.
RANGE ESTIMATION METHODS
100-Yard / Meter-Unit-of-Measure Method. To use this methodThe shooter must be able to visualize a distance of 100 yards / meters on the ground. For ranges up to 500 yards / meters the shooter determines the number of 100-meter increments between the two objects it wishes to measure. Beyond 500 yards / meters, it must select a point halfway to the object and determine the number of 100-meter increments to the halfway point, then double it to find the range to the object.
Appearance-of-Object Method. This method is a means of determining range by the size and other characteristic details of the object. To use the appearance-of-object method with any degree of accuracy, the Shooter must be familiar with the characteristic details of the objects
as they appear at various ranges.
Range-Card Method. The shooter uses a range card to quickly determine ranges throughout the target area. Once the target is seen, the shooter determines where it is located on the card and then reads the proper range to the target. Also you can label your targets as "TRP" Target Reference Point.
Combination Method. Some times only one method of range estimation may not be enough for a shooter. Terrain with much dead space limits the accuracy of the 100-yard / meter method. Poor visibility limits the use of the appearance-of-object method. However, by using a combination of two or more methods to determine an unknown range, an experienced shooter should arrive at an estimated range close to the true range.
What the Mil-dot is and how it works
A milliradian is a unit of measure derived from the degrees of a circle.
(Note: in a 360 degree circle, there are 6283.2 milliradians, or 17.45 milliradians per degree.)
This means that a milliradian will subtend different distances at different ranges. For example:
The subtension of 1 mil equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards or 36 inches at 1,000 yards. In metric units, the correspondence is 1 mil equals 10 centimeters at 100 meters or 1 meter at 1,000 meters.
Knowing this subtension and knowing the size of the target (or a reference object near the target) allows the distance to the target to be estimated with considerable accuracy.
Mil-Relation Formula.
The mil-relation formula is the preferred method of range estimation. This method uses a mil-scale reticule located in binoculars, spotting scopes or rifle scopes with a Mil-dot recital. The shooter must know the target size in inches yards or meters. Once the target size is known, the team then compares the target size to the mil-scale reticule and uses the following formula:
Size of target in yards x 1,000 / Size of target in MIL's = range in yds
Size of target in inches x 27.778 / Size of target in MIL's = range in yds
Size of target in inches x 25.4 / Size of target in MIL's = range in meters
MIL-DOT HOLD OVERS AND UNDERS
MOA data / 3.438 = mil hold over/under
This is how you do it in steps:
1. Shoot your dope to ranges you will use your rifle at. Record your dope in MOA.
2. Pick a range as the set constant on the scope.
3. follow this conversion to get hold unders.
4. Follow this conversion th get hold overs
EXAMPLE MOA
Step 1.
100yds ZERO
150yds .75 MOA
200yds 1.75 MOA
250yds 3.50 MOA
300yds 4.25 MOA
350yds 5.75 MOA
400yds 7.25 MOA
450yds 8.50 MOA
500yds 10.75 MOA
550yds 12.25 MOA
600yds 14.00 MOA
700yds 18.00MOA
Step 2.
I WILL USE: 500yds as my set constant on the scope.
Step 3.
500yd MOA - 450yd MOA = MOA between 500 yds and 450yds / 3.438 = Mil-dot hold under
10.75- 8.50= 2.25 MOA
2.25MOA / 3.438= .65 Mil-dot Hold under
So if I want to shoot the 450yd target with 500yds dialed in the scope. All I need to do is hold .65 mills under and I will hit the 450yd target.
Step 4.
550yd MOA - 500yd MOA = MOA between 550 yds and 500yds / 3.438 = Mil-dot hold over
12.25 - 10.75 = 1.5 MOA
1.5MOA / 3.438 = .43 Mil-dot hold over
ANGLE FIRING from FM 23-10
3-11. ANGLE FIRING
Most practice firing conducted by the sniper team involves the use of military range facilities, which are relatively flat. However, as a sniper being deployed to other regions of the world, the chance exists for operating in a mountainous or urban environment. This requires target engagements at higher and lower elevations. Unless the sniper takes corrective action, bullet impact will be above the point of aim. How high the bullet hits is determined by the range and angle to the target (Table 3-3). The amount of elevation change applied to the telescope of the rifle for angle firing is known as slope dope.
FM 23-10 Chapter 3
Section III
EFFECTS OF WEATHER
For the highly trained sniper, the effects of weather are the main causes of error in the strike of the bullet. Wind, mirage, light, temperature, and humidity affect the bullet, the sniper, or both. Some effects are minor; however, sniping is often done in extremes of weather and all effects must be considered.
3-12. WIND CLASSIFICATION
Wind poses the biggest problem for the sniper. The effect that wind has on the bullet increases with range. This is due mainly to the slowing of the bullet's velocity combined with a longer flight time. This allows the wind to have a greater effect on the round as distances increase. The result is a loss of stability.
a. Wind also has a considerable effect on the sniper. The stronger the wind, the more difficult it is for him to hold the rifle steady. This can be partly offset by training, conditioning and the use of supported positions.
b. Since the sniper must know how much effect the wind will have on the bullet, he must be able to classify the wind. The best method is to use the clock system (Figure 3-19). With the sniper at the center of the clock and the target at 12 o'clock, the wind is assigned three values: full, half, and no value. Full value means that the force of the wind will have a full effect on the flight of the bullet. These winds come from 3 and 9 o'clock. Half value means that a wind at the same speed, but from 1,2,4,5,7,8, 10, and 11 o'clock, will move the bullet only half as much as a full-value wind. No value means that a wind from 6 or 12 o'clock will have little or no effect on the flight of the bullet.
3-13. WIND VELOCITY
Before adjusting the sight to compensate for wind, the sniper must determine wind direction and velocity. He may use certain indicators to accomplish this. These are range flags, smoke, trees, grass, rain, and the sense of feel. However, the preferred method of determining wind direction and velocity is reading mirage (see paragraph d below). In most cases, wind direction can be determined simply by observing the indicators.
a. A common method of estimating the velocity of the wind during training is to watch the range flag (Figure 3-20). The sniper determines the angle between the flag and pole, in degrees, then divides by the constant number 4. The result gives the approximate velocity in miles per hour.
b. If no flag is visible, the sniper holds a piece of paper, grass, cotton, or some other light material at shoulder level, then drops it. He then points directly at the spot where it lands and divides the angle between his body and arm by the constant number 4. This gives him the approximate wind velocity in miles per hour.
c. If these methods cannot be used, the following information is helpful in determining velocity. Winds under 3 miles per hour can barely be felt, although smoke will drift. A 3- to 5-mile-per-hour wind can barely be felt on the face. With a 5- to 8-mile-per-hour wind, the leaves in the trees are in constant motion, and with a 12- to 15-mile-per-hour wind, small trees begin to sway.
d. A mirage is a reflection of the heat through layers of air at different temperatures and density as seen on a warm day (Figure 3-21). With the telescope, the sniper can see a mirage as long as there is a difference in ground and air temperatures. Proper reading of the mirage enables the sniper to estimate wind speed and direction with a high degree of accuracy. The sniper uses the M49 observation telescope to read the mirage. Since the wind nearest to midrange has the greatest effect on the bullet, he tries to determine velocity at that point. He can do this in one of two ways:
(1) He focuses on an object at midrange, then places the scope back onto the target without readjusting the focus.
(2) He can also focus on the target, then back off the focus one-quarter turn counterclockwise. This makes the target appear fuzzy, but the mirage will be clear.
e. As observed through the telescope, the mirage appears to move with the same velocity as the wind, except when blowing straight into or away from the scope. Then, the mirage gives the appearance of moving straight upward with no lateral movement. This is called a boiling mirage. A boiling mirage may also be seen when the wind is constantly changing direction. For example, a full-value wind blowing from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock suddenly changes direction. The mirage will appear to stop moving from left to right and present a boiling appearance. When this occurs, the inexperienced observer directs the sniper to fire with the "0" wind. As the sniper fires, the wind begins blowing from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock, causing the bullet to miss the target therefore, firing in a "boil" can hamper shot placement. Unless there is a no-value wind, the sniper must wait until the boil disappears. In general, changes in the velocity of the wind, up to about 12 miles per hour, can be readily determined by observing the mirage. Beyond that speed, the movement of the mirage is too fast for detection of minor changes.
3-14. CONVERSION OF WIND VELOCITY TO MINUTES OF ANGLE
All telescopic sights have windage adjustments that are graduated in minutes of angle or fractions thereof. A minute of angle is 1/60th of a degree (Figure 3-22). This equals about 1 inch (1.145 inches) for every 100 meters.
EXAMPLE
1 MOA = 2 inches at 200 meters
1 MOA = 5 inches at 500 meters
a. Snipers use minutes of angle (Figure 3-22) to determine and adjust the elevation and windage needed on the weapon's scope. After finding the wind direction and velocity in miles per hour, the sniper must then convert it into minutes of angle, using the wind formula as a rule of thumb only. The wind formula is--
If the target is 700 meters away and the wind velocity is 10 mph, the formula is--
This determines the number of minutes for a full-value wind. For a half-value wind, the 5.38 would be divided in half.
b. The observer makes his own adjustment estimations, then compares them to the wind conversion table, which can be a valuable training tool. He must not rely on this table; if it is lost, his ability to perform the mission could be severely hampered. Until the observer gains skill in estimating wind speed and computing sight changes, he may refer to Table 3-4.
Re: For the new guys
For the new guys.
If you don't have a partner and want to see where you are hitting, I suggest you purchase shoot-n-see targets. They come in various sizes. For 300 yards I use the 5", for 400, the 8". I use the 12" target for 500 and over. Stick them on poster board or a human silhouette, which is better. You will be able to see your impacts if you have a good spotting scope.
Now we come to what you are trying to accomplish with your shooting.
A military sniper trys to get in the kill zone. He is an area shooter, which is the human torso or head.
A police sniper always tries to get in the kill zone, but he must be able to do a surgical shot as well, which is not more than 100 yards usually. You should be able to do a surgical shot out to 200 yards.
A precision shooter is trying to get into the X ring or 10 ring.
As for myself, I shoot for the kill zone. Am I trying to get into the ten ring? Yes, because that is what I am aiming at. If I don't get into the X ring or 10 ring, it does not matter to me as long has I am in the kill zone. I want to do this with the first shot out of the barrel at any given distance or unknown distance.
I am not trying to put in tiny little groups. The only thing groups tell me is that my rifle and ammo are working, and my rifle is on target. I am not a bench rest shooter or Palma shooter. As long as I am shooting at least MOA for a particular distance, I am satisfied with myself.
If you don't have a partner "you" will have to call your own windage and dial it in or use hold off. Learn the wind.
The only kind of competition I was ever interested in was sniper competition. I can't compete now because of my age and disablitity, so I compete with myself.
You decide what you want to accomplish in your own shooting. All of us have different goals, but we all want to be the best shooter we can.
My rifle is the Marine M40A1 with a Leupold MK4M1 10X fixed sniper scope.
Tom
For the new guys.
If you don't have a partner and want to see where you are hitting, I suggest you purchase shoot-n-see targets. They come in various sizes. For 300 yards I use the 5", for 400, the 8". I use the 12" target for 500 and over. Stick them on poster board or a human silhouette, which is better. You will be able to see your impacts if you have a good spotting scope.
Now we come to what you are trying to accomplish with your shooting.
A military sniper trys to get in the kill zone. He is an area shooter, which is the human torso or head.
A police sniper always tries to get in the kill zone, but he must be able to do a surgical shot as well, which is not more than 100 yards usually. You should be able to do a surgical shot out to 200 yards.
A precision shooter is trying to get into the X ring or 10 ring.
As for myself, I shoot for the kill zone. Am I trying to get into the ten ring? Yes, because that is what I am aiming at. If I don't get into the X ring or 10 ring, it does not matter to me as long has I am in the kill zone. I want to do this with the first shot out of the barrel at any given distance or unknown distance.
I am not trying to put in tiny little groups. The only thing groups tell me is that my rifle and ammo are working, and my rifle is on target. I am not a bench rest shooter or Palma shooter. As long as I am shooting at least MOA for a particular distance, I am satisfied with myself.
If you don't have a partner "you" will have to call your own windage and dial it in or use hold off. Learn the wind.
The only kind of competition I was ever interested in was sniper competition. I can't compete now because of my age and disablitity, so I compete with myself.
You decide what you want to accomplish in your own shooting. All of us have different goals, but we all want to be the best shooter we can.
My rifle is the Marine M40A1 with a Leupold MK4M1 10X fixed sniper scope.
Tom
G
Guest
Guest
Re: For the new guys
Don't let anybody tell you your stock PSS is not good enough to take to a match. Go shoot you might just find out money doesn't beat the wind.
Buy first rate glass first then spend money on the rifle when you catch up to it.
Don't let anybody tell you your stock PSS is not good enough to take to a match. Go shoot you might just find out money doesn't beat the wind.
Buy first rate glass first then spend money on the rifle when you catch up to it.
Re: For the new guys
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Langelius *:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> My own approach is to boil it all down to a minimum.
Shoot the damned thing. A lot. Under as many conditions as possible. Log everything regarding conditions, components, and results, until you can get a gut understanding about causes and effects. Keep a log and review the log, but don't be a slave to the log, or maybe you'll be a loser if you lose the log. The place for the data is in the head. The book is the backup.
Every shot is important. There are no 'throwaway' shots. If you're not shooting every shot like it's important, maybe you should take up golf.
Adversity is your best instructor. Anyone can shoot nice when the conditions are nice. The true marksman welcomes the bum conditions because they know that only under such conditions can they perfect their skills.
Greg </span></div></div>Well said.
Shadow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Langelius *:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> My own approach is to boil it all down to a minimum.
Shoot the damned thing. A lot. Under as many conditions as possible. Log everything regarding conditions, components, and results, until you can get a gut understanding about causes and effects. Keep a log and review the log, but don't be a slave to the log, or maybe you'll be a loser if you lose the log. The place for the data is in the head. The book is the backup.
Every shot is important. There are no 'throwaway' shots. If you're not shooting every shot like it's important, maybe you should take up golf.
Adversity is your best instructor. Anyone can shoot nice when the conditions are nice. The true marksman welcomes the bum conditions because they know that only under such conditions can they perfect their skills.
Greg </span></div></div>Well said.
Shadow
Re: For the new guys
If it hasn't been mentioned. Go to
http://www.shooterready.com/
and order the Long Range Shooting Simlation 2.
Tom
If it hasn't been mentioned. Go to
http://www.shooterready.com/
and order the Long Range Shooting Simlation 2.
Tom
Re: For the new guys
jsut felt appropriate to introduce my self , i am a member of the Air cadets , a youth organization in the u.k, but i do shoot - nothing special ( parker hale L81 A2 TR & NUMEROUS .22 TR's) but i have signed up to these forums just to learn some stuff as i do intend on going into the armed forces, and also to post some jokes in the other forums. thanks to the people who run these forums , as they keep me free from boredom in college.
jsut felt appropriate to introduce my self , i am a member of the Air cadets , a youth organization in the u.k, but i do shoot - nothing special ( parker hale L81 A2 TR & NUMEROUS .22 TR's) but i have signed up to these forums just to learn some stuff as i do intend on going into the armed forces, and also to post some jokes in the other forums. thanks to the people who run these forums , as they keep me free from boredom in college.
Re: For the new guys
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Langelius *:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Welcome aboard.
We try to do the right thing here, and we try to help others do it right. In our viewpoint, the lesson isn't truly learned until one is compelled to put the lesson into terms that can be clearly understood by another.
Obviously; we're all still learning, and that's a good thing.
Greg </span></div></div>+1 nobody stops learning....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Langelius *:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Welcome aboard.
We try to do the right thing here, and we try to help others do it right. In our viewpoint, the lesson isn't truly learned until one is compelled to put the lesson into terms that can be clearly understood by another.
Obviously; we're all still learning, and that's a good thing.
Greg </span></div></div>+1 nobody stops learning....
Re: For the new guys
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by BlackStar:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Langelius *:
Welcome aboard.
We try to do the right thing here, and we try to help others do it right. In our viewpoint, the lesson isn't truly learned until one is compelled to put the lesson into terms that can be clearly understood by another.
Obviously; we're all still learning, and that's a good thing.
Greg </span></div></div>+1 nobody stops learning.... </div></div>I try to learn something new everyday.....and you know what? I do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by BlackStar:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Langelius *:
Welcome aboard.
We try to do the right thing here, and we try to help others do it right. In our viewpoint, the lesson isn't truly learned until one is compelled to put the lesson into terms that can be clearly understood by another.
Obviously; we're all still learning, and that's a good thing.
Greg </span></div></div>+1 nobody stops learning.... </div></div>I try to learn something new everyday.....and you know what? I do.
Re: For the new guys
I asked John why he did not put the coversion formula for wind velocity to moa in his post and John asked me to post it for him. So hopefully I won't screw it up in grand fashion!
The formula is as follows: Range x Wind Velocity divided by the constant. With Johns example of 700yds and a 10mph wind,divide the 700yds by 100 that equals 7,then multiply by 10 the wind velocity.That will give you the sum of 70. Then divide by the constant,in this case the constant will be 13 which is the constant for 700yds which when divded will give you 5.38MOA.
You ask what are the constants in the USMC FMFM Sniping Manual 1-3B you will find a chart with various wind velocitys and the amount of MOA you will need plus the constants that are easy to remember based on the yardage so here are the constants as follows:
0 to 500 divide by 15
500 to 600 divide by 14
600 to 800 divide by 13
800 to 900 divide by 12
900 to 1000 divide by 11
1000 to 1100 divide by 10
I know this works with a 168gr HPBT SMK because I use it with my 308 Remmy PSS and it works. John did I screw anything up?
Semper Fi! Brian
I asked John why he did not put the coversion formula for wind velocity to moa in his post and John asked me to post it for him. So hopefully I won't screw it up in grand fashion!
The formula is as follows: Range x Wind Velocity divided by the constant. With Johns example of 700yds and a 10mph wind,divide the 700yds by 100 that equals 7,then multiply by 10 the wind velocity.That will give you the sum of 70. Then divide by the constant,in this case the constant will be 13 which is the constant for 700yds which when divded will give you 5.38MOA.
You ask what are the constants in the USMC FMFM Sniping Manual 1-3B you will find a chart with various wind velocitys and the amount of MOA you will need plus the constants that are easy to remember based on the yardage so here are the constants as follows:
0 to 500 divide by 15
500 to 600 divide by 14
600 to 800 divide by 13
800 to 900 divide by 12
900 to 1000 divide by 11
1000 to 1100 divide by 10
I know this works with a 168gr HPBT SMK because I use it with my 308 Remmy PSS and it works. John did I screw anything up?
Semper Fi! Brian
Re: For the new guys
Missed this the 1st time reading.
"a. Snipers use minutes of angle (Figure 3-22) to determine and adjust the elevation and windage needed on the weapon's scope. After finding the wind direction and velocity in miles per hour, the sniper must then convert it into minutes of angle, using the wind formula as a rule of thumb only. The wind formula is--
If the target is 700 meters away and the wind velocity is 10 mph, the formula is--
This determines the number of minutes for a full-value wind. For a half-value wind, the 5.38 would be divided in half.
"
Where is the formula?
Missed this the 1st time reading.
"a. Snipers use minutes of angle (Figure 3-22) to determine and adjust the elevation and windage needed on the weapon's scope. After finding the wind direction and velocity in miles per hour, the sniper must then convert it into minutes of angle, using the wind formula as a rule of thumb only. The wind formula is--
If the target is 700 meters away and the wind velocity is 10 mph, the formula is--
This determines the number of minutes for a full-value wind. For a half-value wind, the 5.38 would be divided in half.
"
Where is the formula?
Re: For the new guys
Here are some aspects that have learned from an old timer.
1. The wind will effect your bullet path greater if the gust is near the first 15 feet of your muzzle than it will down range.
2. Shoot early in the morning and late in the afternoon. You will see your greatest wind changes during sun up and sun down.
3. Wind may become a pattern. Ex.. It may gust every 15 seconds, observe it and you may find an open spot.
4. If your shooting area is open and is surrounded by trees, watch the tree line for wind movement.
5. Develop your habits and practice with a 22lr and work your way up to the big boomers. It is cheap, you can see if you have a flinch, and is most reactive to shooting wind conditions and you can learn the wind this way. What you learn on the 22lr can transfet to the bigger boomers. Personally I shoot the big boomers for awhile, and then go back to the 22lr to see if I have a flinch or etc...
6.....this one may sound crazy but I stick to it and it works with me. A very close facial shave may be the difference between the best and worst shooting you can achieve. Reason - You can feel the wind on your face before you see it in the grass, trees, etc..
7. Go to some matches and observe the shooters and talk to them, they may have some info that will save you some hard knocks and time.
This is definately the best forum going and I love this site!!!!!!!!
Here are some aspects that have learned from an old timer.
1. The wind will effect your bullet path greater if the gust is near the first 15 feet of your muzzle than it will down range.
2. Shoot early in the morning and late in the afternoon. You will see your greatest wind changes during sun up and sun down.
3. Wind may become a pattern. Ex.. It may gust every 15 seconds, observe it and you may find an open spot.
4. If your shooting area is open and is surrounded by trees, watch the tree line for wind movement.
5. Develop your habits and practice with a 22lr and work your way up to the big boomers. It is cheap, you can see if you have a flinch, and is most reactive to shooting wind conditions and you can learn the wind this way. What you learn on the 22lr can transfet to the bigger boomers. Personally I shoot the big boomers for awhile, and then go back to the 22lr to see if I have a flinch or etc...
6.....this one may sound crazy but I stick to it and it works with me. A very close facial shave may be the difference between the best and worst shooting you can achieve. Reason - You can feel the wind on your face before you see it in the grass, trees, etc..
7. Go to some matches and observe the shooters and talk to them, they may have some info that will save you some hard knocks and time.
This is definately the best forum going and I love this site!!!!!!!!
Re: For the new guys
texgal338,
Here you go sorry about that type-o.
<span style="font-weight: bold">If the target is 700 meters away and the wind velocity is 10 mph, the formula is--</span>
John
texgal338,
Here you go sorry about that type-o.
<span style="font-weight: bold">If the target is 700 meters away and the wind velocity is 10 mph, the formula is--</span>
John
Re: For the new guys
John; thanks
John; thanks
Re: For the new guys
texgal338,
Remember, the constant, forgive the pun, is not constant. For example, shooting the 5.56 M855 from a 20 inch barreled service rifle to maximum effective range, the constant is 10. In other words, the constant is constant for a particular bullet driven at an average muzzle velocity. In my earlier example, to hit a target at 500 yards with a 10 mph wind, would require 10 clicks on the half minute windage drum of the M16 A4.
texgal338,
Remember, the constant, forgive the pun, is not constant. For example, shooting the 5.56 M855 from a 20 inch barreled service rifle to maximum effective range, the constant is 10. In other words, the constant is constant for a particular bullet driven at an average muzzle velocity. In my earlier example, to hit a target at 500 yards with a 10 mph wind, would require 10 clicks on the half minute windage drum of the M16 A4.
Re: For the new guys
Charles,
you are 100% right, I thought that sence I was quoting FM 23-10 people reading my quote would know it was for a .308win. But you make it clear thats not true.
So I will do some digging up to see if I can find all the constants for .223, .30, .338 and .50
John
Charles,
you are 100% right, I thought that sence I was quoting FM 23-10 people reading my quote would know it was for a .308win. But you make it clear thats not true.
So I will do some digging up to see if I can find all the constants for .223, .30, .338 and .50
John
Re: For the new guys
John,
These constants are really helpful; yet, even folks, like me, that shoot a lot of HP and LR, I don't think, fully recognize how easy it gets to keep their bullets right-in-there by simply surrendering to this easily learned wind adjustment formula.
John,
These constants are really helpful; yet, even folks, like me, that shoot a lot of HP and LR, I don't think, fully recognize how easy it gets to keep their bullets right-in-there by simply surrendering to this easily learned wind adjustment formula.
Re: For the new guys
Sterling Shooter, I too was referring to a 308 when I made my posting my response to windage constants!
John! Any info on the other calibres would be deeply appreciated with regards to wind/range constants. Knowledge is power!I love this website!
Sterling Shooter, I too was referring to a 308 when I made my posting my response to windage constants!
John! Any info on the other calibres would be deeply appreciated with regards to wind/range constants. Knowledge is power!I love this website!
Re: For the new guys
By far, this has been one of the most educational threads for us new fellas. Thanks for all the info and helpful links.
By far, this has been one of the most educational threads for us new fellas. Thanks for all the info and helpful links.
Re: For the new guys
good info for all
good info for all
Re: For the new guys
I concur with Greg. The information that is here is valuable,accurate and also entertaining! It will definetly be a hit with the shooting community. We will have pictures from the April (Michigan Shoot) that will be available if anyone is interested in utilizing them...plus the members here that are going to participate will have a unbiased commentary about everything to anything. Thier input will be of great value as source of input.Just mt two cents....
Semper Fi,Brian
I concur with Greg. The information that is here is valuable,accurate and also entertaining! It will definetly be a hit with the shooting community. We will have pictures from the April (Michigan Shoot) that will be available if anyone is interested in utilizing them...plus the members here that are going to participate will have a unbiased commentary about everything to anything. Thier input will be of great value as source of input.Just mt two cents....
Semper Fi,Brian
Re: For the new guys
Wow. Thank you so much for posting all that information.
I learned about many things I had questions on.
My shooting posture/stance is not the best but I am trying to work on it. Right now I look like I'm holding a bow with my darn elbow out, only way it seem comfortable and helps take the shock. But I know it is "bad form" and have gotten comments on it. Ugh.
Wow. Thank you so much for posting all that information.
I learned about many things I had questions on.
My shooting posture/stance is not the best but I am trying to work on it. Right now I look like I'm holding a bow with my darn elbow out, only way it seem comfortable and helps take the shock. But I know it is "bad form" and have gotten comments on it. Ugh.
Re: For the new guys
Lady_of_the_Lake,
What stance are you referring too? standing, prone, sitting? Let us know.
Every one else.
The resion I have not replyed to the constants is because I have not been able to go shoot and use them at this time. I want to put out something that works.
To be dead honest, Sterling Shooter is a much better person to reply about constants than me. Its a new way to dope wind to me. So I am not 100% on the up and up with it.
John
Lady_of_the_Lake,
What stance are you referring too? standing, prone, sitting? Let us know.
Every one else.
The resion I have not replyed to the constants is because I have not been able to go shoot and use them at this time. I want to put out something that works.
To be dead honest, Sterling Shooter is a much better person to reply about constants than me. Its a new way to dope wind to me. So I am not 100% on the up and up with it.
John
Re: For the new guys
Standing. Actually.
Also, what is a "click"? I think it is a measure of distance, but how far exactly?
And what does a spotter do for a sniper? I heard they help tell where the bullet hit and what modifications they need to make and wind speed and such, but it just seems so complicated. I want to learn but don't know where to start. I figured the best place to start would be here.
Standing. Actually.
Also, what is a "click"? I think it is a measure of distance, but how far exactly?
And what does a spotter do for a sniper? I heard they help tell where the bullet hit and what modifications they need to make and wind speed and such, but it just seems so complicated. I want to learn but don't know where to start. I figured the best place to start would be here.
Re: For the new guys
Lady of the lake,,,,you mean the chicken wing thing you do LOL>>> :roflmao:
Lady of the lake,,,,you mean the chicken wing thing you do LOL>>> :roflmao:
Re: For the new guys
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by MidMoGunner:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Lady of the lake,,,,you mean the chicken wing thing you do LOL>>> :roflmao: </span></div></div>Very funny! Yes, for your information, the "chicken wing thing" that I do is what I am refering to. YOU told me it wasn't proper stance/posture.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by MidMoGunner:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Lady of the lake,,,,you mean the chicken wing thing you do LOL>>> :roflmao: </span></div></div>Very funny! Yes, for your information, the "chicken wing thing" that I do is what I am refering to. YOU told me it wasn't proper stance/posture.
Re: For the new guys
Lady_of_the_Lake,
With the chicken wing, that is a common issue. Do you do it in kneeling also? Most do.
The best way to corect the wing, is to keep the sling tight on the non-shooting arm and try to feel your elbow on your side.
As far as a "click" goes. There are two answers for this.
In the military a click is 1 kilometer long "1000 meters"
In the shooting world a click is the single ajustment for your sights
What does a spotter do for a sniper?
This is a great question. A spotter is the most experienced member on a sniper team and the spotter does the following:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Helps locate targets[*]Prioritizes target ingagement[*]Confirms target distance LRF, Mil-Dot or Range Card.[*]Calls the wind "a sniper only dials what the spotter calls"[*]Calls trace or splash "Hit or miss"[*]If there is a splash, calls immediate corrections for 2nd round hit.[*]Helps record all data in log book[*]Pull's security to and from hide[/list]
thats about it in a nut shell.
John
Lady_of_the_Lake,
With the chicken wing, that is a common issue. Do you do it in kneeling also? Most do.
The best way to corect the wing, is to keep the sling tight on the non-shooting arm and try to feel your elbow on your side.
As far as a "click" goes. There are two answers for this.
In the military a click is 1 kilometer long "1000 meters"
In the shooting world a click is the single ajustment for your sights
What does a spotter do for a sniper?
This is a great question. A spotter is the most experienced member on a sniper team and the spotter does the following:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Helps locate targets[*]Prioritizes target ingagement[*]Confirms target distance LRF, Mil-Dot or Range Card.[*]Calls the wind "a sniper only dials what the spotter calls"[*]Calls trace or splash "Hit or miss"[*]If there is a splash, calls immediate corrections for 2nd round hit.[*]Helps record all data in log book[*]Pull's security to and from hide[/list]
thats about it in a nut shell.
John
Re: For the new guys
Awesome, thank you John.
Yes,I also chicken wing when kneeling. Ha.
thanks for all the great information.
Awesome, thank you John.
Yes,I also chicken wing when kneeling. Ha.
thanks for all the great information.
Re: For the new guys
Bone on bone, that makes sense. Stability, right?
Bone on bone, that makes sense. Stability, right?
Re: For the new guys
Hubby and I went fishing and shooting yesterday. It went pretty well. I didn't "chicken wing" hardly at all. His 308 had a little kick to it. I didn't get it tucked in very good on one shot and my clavical took the brunt of it. Ugh. Lesson learned there. Ha.
He can keep that 308 stuff, it wasn't as much fun as my AR.
Hubby and I went fishing and shooting yesterday. It went pretty well. I didn't "chicken wing" hardly at all. His 308 had a little kick to it. I didn't get it tucked in very good on one shot and my clavical took the brunt of it. Ugh. Lesson learned there. Ha.
He can keep that 308 stuff, it wasn't as much fun as my AR.
Re: For the new guys
Lady_of_the_Lake,
Here's a tip for better positions, go to odcmp.com then to sales. Order the CMP/AMU three part training DVD on HP Rifle Competition, item # 770DVD. This DVD, called Mind Over Matter is simply, outside of having a personal trainer/coach, the best thing to getting up to speed on the marksmanship principles and their supports which will help you be the best you can be.
Lady_of_the_Lake,
Here's a tip for better positions, go to odcmp.com then to sales. Order the CMP/AMU three part training DVD on HP Rifle Competition, item # 770DVD. This DVD, called Mind Over Matter is simply, outside of having a personal trainer/coach, the best thing to getting up to speed on the marksmanship principles and their supports which will help you be the best you can be.
Re: For the new guys
Lady of the lake,
I love women like you. I brought my wife out on a deer shoot before last christmas and she enjoyed it. Im teaching her to shoot, though she is an army brat herself.
God,only to find a beautiful woman who likes guns.
ed
Lady of the lake,
I love women like you. I brought my wife out on a deer shoot before last christmas and she enjoyed it. Im teaching her to shoot, though she is an army brat herself.
God,only to find a beautiful woman who likes guns.
ed
Re: For the new guys
thank you for posting that. Very informative I myself learned alot from it
thank you for posting that. Very informative I myself learned alot from it
Re: For the new guys
Ditto on the mildot master.
Those guys with the gas guns in the pics need eye protection.
Ditto on the mildot master.
Those guys with the gas guns in the pics need eye protection.
Last edited:
Re: For the new guys
2nd place is first loser Lindsey..jesus christ, I thought you knew that.
2nd place is first loser Lindsey..jesus christ, I thought you knew that.
Re: For the new guys
Which one was that and why? Nothing learned?
Which one was that and why? Nothing learned?
Re: For the new guys
Lindsey: Amen, brother - I've found it's better to only let my own mental problems affect me...
Lindsey: Amen, brother - I've found it's better to only let my own mental problems affect me...
Re: For the new guys
thanks for the post it is really goin to help once i finally get started. im almost there all i have to do is save about $500 more and i can get my rifle and scope and start shooting. and as far as a parter i have found one in a good friend who is also just starting out with the long range shooting. i might not have ever used most of the gear that i am goin to buy before but having worked in a true "gun store" not an acadamy or in the sporting goods at walmart but a true gun store i have learned alot from reading and just talkin to my customers who were in to long range shooting.
i have found the best way to get information with out all the bullshit that the companys feed you about their products is to talk to someone who has actually used them. for example bushnell has clamed to have as much as 97 or 98% light transmishin on one of there scopes where as swarovski only clames around 95%. now lets get the facts straight bushnell might have a 98% transmishion but that is only form one spectrum of the light and that is the highest %. where as we all know that swarovski is a much better scope and only has 95 % but they list the % which is the lowest. so if didnt know what i know i would see the this information and say why should i spend 1300 when i could spend 125. this just goin back to my point before buying anything that will have a major impact on your shooting talk to somebody ask questions. even if u dont like the answer if you get the samething more than lets say 3 times you know that there might be something behind the answers you are getting.
i have made the mistake of buying a great gun then putting a tasco world class scope on it now dont get me wrong if this would have been a 22 that i just use a boat gun ( one of the many that i just leave in my boat to shoot snakes and wasp nest with) that would have been all that i needed, but this was my main deer rifle. now i ended up putting a khales on it.
now the only thing left that i have to say is just go out there and shoot no matter what people tell you and how much information is given you will never get any better if you dont get to the range. and it doesnt have to be the same gun every time go and spend $11 and get a brick of 22s and shoot and you will get better every time. now get out there and have some fun .
thanks for the post it is really goin to help once i finally get started. im almost there all i have to do is save about $500 more and i can get my rifle and scope and start shooting. and as far as a parter i have found one in a good friend who is also just starting out with the long range shooting. i might not have ever used most of the gear that i am goin to buy before but having worked in a true "gun store" not an acadamy or in the sporting goods at walmart but a true gun store i have learned alot from reading and just talkin to my customers who were in to long range shooting.
i have found the best way to get information with out all the bullshit that the companys feed you about their products is to talk to someone who has actually used them. for example bushnell has clamed to have as much as 97 or 98% light transmishin on one of there scopes where as swarovski only clames around 95%. now lets get the facts straight bushnell might have a 98% transmishion but that is only form one spectrum of the light and that is the highest %. where as we all know that swarovski is a much better scope and only has 95 % but they list the % which is the lowest. so if didnt know what i know i would see the this information and say why should i spend 1300 when i could spend 125. this just goin back to my point before buying anything that will have a major impact on your shooting talk to somebody ask questions. even if u dont like the answer if you get the samething more than lets say 3 times you know that there might be something behind the answers you are getting.
i have made the mistake of buying a great gun then putting a tasco world class scope on it now dont get me wrong if this would have been a 22 that i just use a boat gun ( one of the many that i just leave in my boat to shoot snakes and wasp nest with) that would have been all that i needed, but this was my main deer rifle. now i ended up putting a khales on it.
now the only thing left that i have to say is just go out there and shoot no matter what people tell you and how much information is given you will never get any better if you dont get to the range. and it doesnt have to be the same gun every time go and spend $11 and get a brick of 22s and shoot and you will get better every time. now get out there and have some fun .
Re: For the new guys
Nobody is RAMBO. No one can do it all. Becoming a shooter is a very personal choice that once it is made, you can't, nor would you want to come back from. When you choose this way, you must remember the general mentality of the shooter. Think of it as a 3 legged stool. Miss a led and it will not stand.
Leg1: The rifle and ammo
Leg2: the optics and mounting system
Leg3: YOU!
You can have the best rifle, be the best shot, But if you have junk optics, You will fail.
You can be the best shot, and have the best optics. But if you rifle sucks, SO WILL YOU.
You can have the best rifle, the best optics. If YOU can not do YOUR job, YOU WILL FAIL!!!
A THREE LEGGED STOOL!! Thats what you hope to achive if you want to be a shooter. Everything else is just for the "COOL" factor.
Nobody is RAMBO. No one can do it all. Becoming a shooter is a very personal choice that once it is made, you can't, nor would you want to come back from. When you choose this way, you must remember the general mentality of the shooter. Think of it as a 3 legged stool. Miss a led and it will not stand.
Leg1: The rifle and ammo
Leg2: the optics and mounting system
Leg3: YOU!
You can have the best rifle, be the best shot, But if you have junk optics, You will fail.
You can be the best shot, and have the best optics. But if you rifle sucks, SO WILL YOU.
You can have the best rifle, the best optics. If YOU can not do YOUR job, YOU WILL FAIL!!!
A THREE LEGGED STOOL!! Thats what you hope to achive if you want to be a shooter. Everything else is just for the "COOL" factor.
Re: For the new guys
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by DR308:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
A THREE LEGGED STOOL!! Thats what you hope to achive if you want to be a shooter. Everything else is just for the "COOL" factor. </span></div></div>DR308,
For me, results have come from knowledge, skill and attitude-that's my three leg stool. It breaks down like this:
*sight alignment
*trigger control
*NPA
*follow-through
*wind formula
*X-ring elevation capability
*will to win
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by DR308:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
A THREE LEGGED STOOL!! Thats what you hope to achive if you want to be a shooter. Everything else is just for the "COOL" factor. </span></div></div>DR308,
For me, results have come from knowledge, skill and attitude-that's my three leg stool. It breaks down like this:
*sight alignment
*trigger control
*NPA
*follow-through
*wind formula
*X-ring elevation capability
*will to win
Re: For the new guys
It looks like the Mil-Dot has been covered pretty good already on this thread but you can never learn too much.
We built a site specifically to help people more completely understand the mil-dot reticle. It is basically a conglomeration of information from multiple sources.
Easy to remember domain www.Mil-Dot.com
Hope it helps.
CF
It looks like the Mil-Dot has been covered pretty good already on this thread but you can never learn too much.
We built a site specifically to help people more completely understand the mil-dot reticle. It is basically a conglomeration of information from multiple sources.
Easy to remember domain www.Mil-Dot.com
Hope it helps.
CF
Re: For the new guys
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by SWFA:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> It looks like the Mil-Dot has been covered pretty good already on this thread but you can never learn too much.
We built a site specifically to help people more completely understand the mil-dot reticle. It is basically a conglomeration of information from multiple sources.
Easy to remember domain www.Mil-Dot.com
Hope it helps.
CF </span></div></div>Chris,
not to pick but that reads rather harsh. Even for a engineer but I am a newb and learning the ranging. Effectively implimenting at course and a good general understanding are different.
Good postin but I'd really tie the simple aspect of subtention into some relative triangle geometry diagrams.
The target is not a arc and the PT is 8th grade math but you don't even need to state anything to get the graphic idea across.
Take the extablished trig/triangle ideas and then get into unit division and pi.
Once that is established, state that the benefits apply to all reticle science (as it was learned in idea and not number) before the mil-dot/moa and associated unit conversion math. I think the unitless aspect and Leupold quotes will leave some with question on what differs in manufacturers and what units apply.
If you don't show it or prove it, don't state it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by SWFA:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> It looks like the Mil-Dot has been covered pretty good already on this thread but you can never learn too much.
We built a site specifically to help people more completely understand the mil-dot reticle. It is basically a conglomeration of information from multiple sources.
Easy to remember domain www.Mil-Dot.com
Hope it helps.
CF </span></div></div>Chris,
not to pick but that reads rather harsh. Even for a engineer but I am a newb and learning the ranging. Effectively implimenting at course and a good general understanding are different.
Good postin but I'd really tie the simple aspect of subtention into some relative triangle geometry diagrams.
The target is not a arc and the PT is 8th grade math but you don't even need to state anything to get the graphic idea across.
Take the extablished trig/triangle ideas and then get into unit division and pi.
Once that is established, state that the benefits apply to all reticle science (as it was learned in idea and not number) before the mil-dot/moa and associated unit conversion math. I think the unitless aspect and Leupold quotes will leave some with question on what differs in manufacturers and what units apply.
If you don't show it or prove it, don't state it.
Re: For the new guys
Damn fine thread!
Thanks!
LWG
Damn fine thread!
Thanks!
LWG
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