Ford techs. A little help please

[The D]

I replaced the water pump and all the timing chains/tensioners last fall on my ‘13 Explorer xlt. Last week it started hesitating and was very underpowered on my way home and the next day it progressed to not starting at all. I spent the next day fumbling around trying to figure it out but I don’t have the proper diag tools/info in my garage so I towed it to a shop. They said it definitely wasn’t fuel related and said they thought the timing was off. I have the timing cover off, camshafts in position, & the proper locking plates on so the upper end is timed correctly. The crank sprocket, however, is waaaay off. Pictures attached below. There’s nothing broke and I can’t see anything “wrong”, like some parts that I did/didn’t install properly/improperly.

Any ideas how/why this happened?

Should I replace anything before I put this back together? Tensioners?

Would the camshaft adjusters fail somehow to make this happen?

I’m aggravated and desperate. Please help

 

[7.62willdo]

Something slipped

 

[The D]

Lol, indeed it did. I need any recommendations about how to proceed though

 

[Tims]

I don't work for ford but I will offer my opinion.

1. You need a code reader. You probably have some type of variable cam timing fault.
2. Are your cam gears held in place by just the center bolt or is it keyed to the camshaft? If its just the center bolt and no key the gear could have slipped on the camshaft.
3. If the cam bolts were not loose and the gears are keyed to the cams and your timing is off like it is I would say one or both of your variable cam gears is bad. I would replace both camshaft gears.
4. Look at your crank gear to. make sure if it is keyed to the crank there is no damage to the key or the gear.
5. Make sure none of your plastic chain guides are broken or loose.

 

[The D]

I don't work for ford but I will offer my opinion.

1. You need a code reader. You probably have some type of variable cam timing fault.
2. Are your cam gears held in place by just the center bolt or is it keyed to the camshaft? If its just the center bolt and no key the gear could have slipped on the camshaft.
3. If the cam bolts were not loose and the gears are keyed to the cams and your timing is off like it is I would say one or both of your variable cam gears is bad. I would replace both camshaft gears.
4. Look at your crank gear to. make sure if it is keyed to the crank there is no damage to the key or the gear.
5. Make sure none of your plastic chain guides are broken or loose.

1) There were timing system codes but they were set because the timing is off

2) Adjusters are secured by the bolt and a dowel. All of the timing marks/positions were set and double checked in the fall when I replaced the chains/tensioners and water pump. It has also run fine since then, only exhibiting any sort of failure in the last few weeks

3) The camshaft adjusters are not super common failures but they are known to fail. I have a good friend that owns his own shop that I’m talking to about this also. He backed up my thoughts about replacing them this time so I’m confident in this decision

4) Crank gear is keyed also but isn’t damaged, it’s just waaay off. Somehow the chain skipped…several teeth

5) Guides are all ok. Those were replaced in the fall as well

 

[GreenGO Juan]

1) There were timing system codes but they were set because the timing is off

2) Adjusters are secured by the bolt and a dowel. All of the timing marks/positions were set and double checked in the fall when I replaced the chains/tensioners and water pump. It has also run fine since then, only exhibiting any sort of failure in the last few weeks

3) The camshaft adjusters are not super common failures but they are known to fail. I have a good friend that owns his own shop that I’m talking to about this also. He backed up my thoughts about replacing them this time so I’m confident in this decision

4) Crank gear is keyed also but isn’t damaged, it’s just waaay off. Somehow the chain skipped…several teeth

5) Guides are all ok. Those were replaced in the fall as well

Were you getting the cold start rattle that is common for a bad phaser ( timming adjuster) before it stopped running?


I assume you removed and re set the timing

 

[SanPatHogger]

I've done quite a few water pumps on these. Usually just reinstall the old tensioners and guides. The dot on the crankshaft should be down and the marks on the camshafts up, you already know this if it was running right. What were the codes? Oil control solenoids can fail and either fully advance or retard the timing on a cam. Or the camshaft sprocket can fail and get stuck one way or teh other. It would be very odd for the chain to skip and jump time, that would mean that a gear is loose and wobbling or the chain tensioner is able to bounce.

 

[The D]

Were you getting the cold start rattle that is common for a bad phaser ( timming adjuster) before it stopped running?


I assume you removed and re set the timing

It did rattle but it was pretty faint.

I’m pretty sure I found the problem. I hope… I was just messing around with all of this mess and was able to push the chain tensioner plunger/guide back into the tensioner housing a bit more than I think is normal. I really hope this is it

 

[The D]

I've done quite a few water pumps on these. Usually just reinstall the old tensioners and guides. The dot on the crankshaft should be down and the marks on the camshafts up, you already know this if it was running right. What were the codes? Oil control solenoids can fail and either fully advance or retard the timing on a cam. Or the camshaft sprocket can fail and get stuck one way or teh other. It would be very odd for the chain to skip and jump time, that would mean that a gear is loose and wobbling or the chain tensioner is able to bounce.

See my response to GGJ. I was able to push the plunger into the tensioner quite a ways

 

[SanPatHogger]

See my response to GGJ. I was able to push the plunger into the tensioner quite a ways

You probably found it. There shoulf be a clip that you squeeze to push it back. Is the clip missing?

 

[Tims]

I’m pretty sure I found the problem. I hope… I was just messing around with all of this mess and was able to push the chain tensioner plunger/guide back into the tensioner housing a bit more than I think is normal. I really hope this is it

It is normal to be able to push the chain tensioner/plunger all the way back into the housing. It is very unlikely your tensioner caused this.

Try this. Set the Crank , cams at TDC. Install the chain and tensioner. With everything set up correctly can you turn the camshaft one way or the other without the timing chain moving? If you can this would be an indication there is an internal problem with the gear. Also are any of the torx bolts on the face of the gear loose? This would also be a sign of an internal gear problem.

 

[Tokay444]

Is this one of those diamond friction washer/no keyed crank/cam geared engines like my old Mazdaspeed 3? If so, those are one time use, and need to be installed on oil free surfaces and you should wear clean gloves to touch them, as the oil on your hands can cause issues.
Edit. Nvm.

 

[SanPatHogger]

Is this one of those diamond friction washer/no keyed crank/cam geared engines like my old Mazdaspeed 3? If so, those are one time use, and need to be installed on oil free surfaces and you should wear clean gloves to touch them, as the oil on your hands can cause issues.
Edit. Nvm.

No, that is only on 4 cylinders.

 

[Tokay444]

No, that is only on 4 cylinders.

Which sucks, because I was putting 420ft/lbs to the ground, stock turbo.

 

[SanPatHogger]

1. Reset the primary timing chain tensioner.
   • Release the ratchet detent.
   • Using a soft-jawed vise, compress the ratchet plunger.
   • Align the hole in the ratchet plunger with the hole in the tensioner housing.
   • Install a suitable lockpin.

The ratchet detent keeps the tensioner from being pushed back in. If it pushes back it is broken

 

[Tokay444]

Are the tensioners themselves still oil fed, and the ratchet just keeps them from retracting?

 

[SanPatHogger]

Are the tensioners themselves still oil fed, and the ratchet just keeps them from retracting?

Yes

 

[SanPatHogger]

Are the tensioners themselves still oil fed, and the ratchet just keeps them from retracting?

This is the newer style from a 2021 Expedition. The shaft has lines in it, shaped like an arrow head. Tensioner shaft can come out but does not push back in unless you squeeze the clip.

 

[The D]

1. Reset the primary timing chain tensioner.
   • Release the ratchet detent.
   • Using a soft-jawed vise, compress the ratchet plunger.
   • Align the hole in the ratchet plunger with the hole in the tensioner housing.
   • Install a suitable lockpin.

The ratchet detent keeps the tensioner from being pushed back in. If it pushes back it is broken

Bingo bango, this is it. I was able to push it in pretty far. Once I get this fucking bucket of bolts back together I’ll take a quick video of it. Fucking fuck, I hate situations like this. As soon as we pay off this shit in the credit card and get the savings back up a bit I’m buying a third car so I don’t have to freak out about trying to make one car work for everything

 

[SanPatHogger]

I replaced the water pump and all the timing chains/tensioners last fall on my ‘13 Explorer xlt. Last week it started hesitating and was very underpowered on my way home and the next day it progressed to not starting at all. I spent the next day fumbling around trying to figure it out but I don’t have the proper diag tools/info in my garage so I towed it to a shop. They said it definitely wasn’t fuel related and said they thought the timing was off. I have the timing cover off, camshafts in position, & the proper locking plates on so the upper end is timed correctly. The crank sprocket, however, is waaaay off. Pictures attached below. There’s nothing broke and I can’t see anything “wrong”, like some parts that I did/didn’t install properly/improperly.

Any ideas how/why this happened?

Should I replace anything before I put this back together? Tensioners?

Would the camshaft adjusters fail somehow to make this happen?

I’m aggravated and desperate. Please help

View attachment 8145352

View attachment 8145353

Looking at your second picture, it looks like you have the newer style tensioner. Also the numbers look funny. Aftermarket parts?

 

[The D]

Looking at your second picture, it looks like you have the newer style tensioner. Also the numbers look funny. Aftermarket parts?

Yes, a lot from Napa that I’m pretty sure is a re-branded Cloyes kit

Is the front passengers side cylinder, cylinder #1? And if that’s at tdc with the dot at approximately 4 o’clock, the crank is in the correct position? I’ve been looking at YouTube videos but everything is assuming the crank wasn’t turned when the cam plates were put on

 

[SanPatHogger]

Yes, a lot from Napa that I’m pretty sure is a re-branded Cloyes kit

Is the front passengers side cylinder, cylinder #1? And if that’s at tdc with the dot at approximately 4 o’clock, the crank is in the correct position? I’ve been looking at YouTube videos but everything is assuming the crank wasn’t turned when the cam plates were put on

Transverse engine, firewall side is bank 1, cylinder 1 in front, so yes.
One colored link on each cam sprocket marking. Two colored marks on the crankshaft mark.

 

[The D]

Transverse engine, firewall side is bank 1, cylinder 1 in front, so yes.
One colored link on each cam sprocket marking. Two colored marks on the crankshaft mark.

Awesome, thanks. I just need the crank position then I’m going to start ripping it apart and putting my new box of parts on. After this, all of the timing shit(except the cams themselves) will be new.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

A decent quick overview video of timing a 3.5

 

[n2ishun]

Iffn it was me.....cam phaser delete kits would be on the way, if not installed already.

Certainly sounds like a bad tensioner was installed by you.
They have that ratcheting mechanism so the tensioner holds when there is no oil pressure.
Imma bet the plunger didn't hold and there was mad slack in the chain when you went to start it.....have we checked to see if it's an interference engine yet ?

Edit:
Just looked, it IS an interference engine.
Slap it back in time and check compression......IF it even turns over.

 

[Krob95]

Iffn it was me.....cam phaser delete kits would be on the way, if not installed already.

Certainly sounds like a bad tensioner was installed by you.
They have that ratcheting mechanism so the tensioner holds when there is no oil pressure.
Imma bet the plunger didn't hold and there was mad slack in the chain when you went to start it.....have we checked to see if it's an interference engine yet ?

Edit:
Just looked, it IS an interference engine.
Slap it back in time and check compression......IF it even turns over.

Can phaser deletes aren’t really a good option unless you’re running bigger power. It’s an explorer so I doubt that’s an option

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Can phaser deletes aren’t really a good option unless you’re running bigger power. It’s an explorer so I doubt that’s an option

Yeah on a stock street car you want the cams moving for peak economy, emissions and power. If they are fudged, which I don't think is the case here, as it sounds like the tensioner was bad, you just replace them and move on.

 

[n2ishun]

It’s an exploder

FIFY

 

[The D]

Ok, everything is back together, timed correctly, and engine rotates fine. There’s something weird(maybe) going on with the tensioner though. When the engine is being turned it gets to a point, I’d guess it’s resistance from several cam lobes at the same time, that the tensioner jumps around. I tried to attach a video but can’t

 

[Krob95]

Well if it’s fucked up too bad, ford will be happy to take your money lol

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I’d guess it’s resistance from several cam lobes at the same time

sounds right if you are slow turning it by hand.

you did remove the retaining pin right?

 

[The D]

Yes, pin is removed. Hopefully everything is ok, it’s almost ready to start…

 

[101st]

Yes, pin is removed. Hopefully everything is ok, it’s almost ready to start…

Good luck.

 

[n2ishun]

Never remove the pin from an exploder unless in a warzone.

Are you in a war zone ?

 

[The D]

Never remove the pin from an exploder unless in a warzone.

Are you in a war zone ?

I live near Denver. Does that count?

 

[tomcatmv]

Buy a Silverado

 

[n2ishun]

I live near Denver. Does that count?

As you were soldier.