Giraud Annealing Machine Modifications

[Edsel]

I just wanted to summarize what I read from this thread, and wanted to ask for clarifications in case I misunderstood something:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...60-giraud-annealing-machine-observations.html

To hook up a Propane Regulator to the smaller Throwaway Propane Tanks one normally gets at Lowe's or The Home Depot, one needs the following:

Propane Regulators - regulator lp cga-510 w/o gauge b hose - Air Compressor Accessories - Amazon.com



Amazon.com - Mr. Heater F273754 1/4" Male Pipe Thread x 1"-20 Female Throwaway Cylinder Thread Fitting - Mr Heater Hose



Amazon.com - Mr. Heater F273755 1/4" Male Pipe Thread x 1"-20 Male Throwaway Cylinder Thread Fitting - Laptop Computer Chargers And Adapters



Is it a straightforward matter of changing the connectors in the following fashion?

I have never dealt with gas fittings before, so I really have no idea.

 

[Edsel]

Now, I'm curious if Doug has changed the color of the wires, as I intend to carry out this modification as well...

Amazon.com : 20K Ohm 3590S-2-203L With Turn Counting Dial Rotary Potentiometer Pot 10 Turn : Office Products

 

[koz]

Thanks for the links and instructions

 

[Jrb572]

What does the blue dial thing do for the annealer?

 

[Edsel]

What does the blue dial thing do for the annealer?

It adjusts the speed of the motor.

 

[Jrb572]

Is it an upgrade from the one that comes with the unit? If so I'll have to look into it.

 

[Edsel]

It's a third - party modification.

They're all featured in this thread here:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...60-giraud-annealing-machine-observations.html

 

[Jrb572]

Thanks I appreciate the link.

 

[Edsel]

Need help confirming the first two posts...

Anyone?

 

[Thump_rrr]

Now, I'm curious if Doug has changed the color of the wires, as I intend to carry out this modification as well...

Amazon.com : 20K Ohm 3590S-2-203L With Turn Counting Dial Rotary Potentiometer Pot 10 Turn : Office Products

Just take a picture of the colors on your potentiometer and post it and I'll tell you which way the wires go.
This is how my potentiometer was wired from the factory.
(1)Yellow
(2)Green
(3)Red

The way a potentiometer works is that there is a wiper arm that moves along a resistance, in this case 20,000 ohms.
In a normal single turn potentiometer the wiper is in the middle.

In this case the wiper is at the rear position of the new potentiometer.



Here is the technical data sheet for the potentiometer including the schematic on page 2.
http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/3590.pdf

Finally a picture of the finished product.

 

[Thump_rrr]

What does the blue dial thing do for the annealer?

The original potentiometer or speed control dial has no fine adjustment with its useful adjustment range being between 5-7.
This does not allow for precise or repeatable settings to be established for a particular cartridge case.
The new potentiometer has 10 complete turns instead of 270 degrees of rotation.

It has a dial which includes a turn counter and each turn is divided into 100 segments so for all intents and purposes you have 1000 repeatable settings with about 300 actually useable settings.
For example in my case I can now set my gas pressure regulator to 15 psi and my speed controller to 595 and I know that my .308 Lapua cases with 0.016 thickness necks will be perfectly annealed every time.
The assumption being that I'm using the same gas every time.

This allows for much quicker setup and much better results.
I am now keeping pressure and speed settings for all my different cartridges in a log book.
This way it only takes seconds to set up. I then check the first cartridge case with Tempilaq then run my batch.

 

[Thump_rrr]

I just wanted to summarize what I read from this thread, and wanted to ask for clarifications in case I misunderstood something:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...60-giraud-annealing-machine-observations.html

To hook up a Propane Regulator to the smaller Throwaway Propane Tanks one normally gets at Lowe's or The Home Depot, one needs the following:

Propane Regulators - regulator lp cga-510 w/o gauge b hose - Air Compressor Accessories - Amazon.com

View attachment 39286

Amazon.com - Mr. Heater F273754 1/4" Male Pipe Thread x 1"-20 Female Throwaway Cylinder Thread Fitting - Mr Heater Hose

View attachment 39287

Amazon.com - Mr. Heater F273755 1/4" Male Pipe Thread x 1"-20 Male Throwaway Cylinder Thread Fitting - Laptop Computer Chargers And Adapters

View attachment 39288

Is it a straightforward matter of changing the connectors in the following fashion?

I have never dealt with gas fittings before, so I really have no idea.

As I mentioned in the other post, you have the 2 fittings reversed.
I also added a male/female 1/4"npt 90 degree elbow at the inlet of the regulator so that the regulator faces right side up when connected to a throwaway bottle.

 

[Edsel]

[MENTION=59966]Thump_rrr[/MENTION]

Thanks! I'll photograph the wires on my potentiometer this evening when I get back from work.

 

[Edsel]

Looks like Doug hasn't changed the wire colors.

Hm...

I wonder if there are some other fancier potentiometers in this size range that'll fit.

 

[Edsel]

Looks like a Carbon Film (WH5-1A) rheostat from China...

 

[Edsel]

@Thump_rrr

Did you have to enlarge the hole for the potentiometer to fit?

My annealer has a 0.24" diameter hole for the potentiometer bushing.

If I'm reading the Data Sheet correctly, that potentiometer you suggested has a 3/8" or 0.375" bushing.

 

[Powermac]

If your looking for a high quality potentiometer take a look here.
If you don't see your exact model they will make it for you.

Precision Electronics Corporation: Potentiometers

 

[Edsel]

If your looking for a high quality potentiometer take a look here.
If you don't see your exact model they will make it for you.

Precision Electronics Corporation: Potentiometers

Thanks!

 

[Powermac]

Happy to be able to help out mate.

As far as i know those potentiometers are US made even, something entirely different then the cheap chinese junk, and only ones i know of that are held to MIL standards.

Been drooling over this machine for a long time, but no way i can get hold of it, as it is listed as automated ammunition equipment it's strictly regulated by the Feds.
Assume there is no way to get around that bummer.

 

[Thump_rrr]

If your looking for a high quality potentiometer take a look here.
If you don't see your exact model they will make it for you.

Precision Electronics Corporation: Potentiometers

Unfortunately these are all 300 degree potentiometers.
They do not seem to have any 3600 degree potentiometers listed.
No matter how good a potentiometer they may be they are going to have the same coarse adjustment the original potentiometer had.

It is by spreading the 20,000 ohm resistance out over 10 rotations that we are able to get very fine adjustment.
You can go spend $40.00 for the exact same potentiometer and knob at McMaster-Carr if it makes you feel any better.

 

[Edsel]

I have these parts inbound.

The first one's a Bourns 3549 10 - Turn Potentiometer (20k), and the other one's an antique Beckman 10 - Turn Counter...

I decided to get them just for kicks.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Been drooling over this machine for a long time, but no way i can get hold of it, as it is listed as automated ammunition equipment it's strictly regulated by the Feds.
Assume there is no way to get around that bummer.

Well the answer to this is yes and no.

It is controlled under ITAR so if Doug wanted to export it his "factory" would need to be registered with ITAR.
Naturally there are costs associated with this.

Secondly if somebody outside the USA wanted to purchase one they would need to get an export license for it.
To get an export license you would need to first get an import permit from the country where you are located.
You would then need to fill out an end user statement regarding the purpose and final destination of the product.

The cost of the export license is in the $300.00 range for an individual export.
The government gives price brakes the more licenses per year you apply for which is why Brownells export fees are 3% of the price of your purchase because they max out their permits every year.

From Doug's side of the fence I can understand that he doesn't want to go through the extra expense and paperwork hassle when he is already back ordered several months doing orders stateside.

 

[Powermac]

Thump rrr.
I know the troubles with the ITAR regulation, thanks for the clarification about the regulations though.
And i know Doug is backlogged 3 months or so currently, i have a few of his trimmers.

As for export lisences i am aware of the procedure and have been through it before, have a US company that has done it for me before for a fee, so that is a easy fix as long as one has a bit of patience.

Import permit for an automated propane torch, with a feed system witch is what it really is, is no need for at all, at least not here.

As for the Pot meter the site i linked they would probably have to make a custom version for him, but it is fully possible to get done, for a price.
Are cheaper options of course.
And i know the principle of the 10 turn pot meter.
Have been working with automated systems and electronics, for some years.

And if your perfectionistic a simple VFD would do the same job quite easily, with more accuracy.
Even a PLC could be incorporated to do the trick.

Another issue with importing it would be to rebuild it to use a 230/400 V system.
Or buying a 230/110 transformer.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Thump rrr.
I know the troubles with the ITAR regulation, thanks for the clarification about the regulations though.
And i know Doug is backlogged 3 months or so currently, i have a few of his trimmers.

As for export lisences i am aware of the procedure and have been through it before, have a US company that has done it for me before for a fee, so that is a easy fix as long as one has a bit of patience.

Import permit for an automated propane torch, with a feed system witch is what it really is, is no need for at all, at least not here.

As for the Pot meter the site i linked they would probably have to make a custom version for him, but it is fully possible to get done, for a price.
Are cheaper options of course.
And i know the principle of the 10 turn pot meter.
Have been working with automated systems and electronics, for some years.

And if your perfectionistic a simple VFD would do the same job quite easily, with more accuracy.
Even a PLC could be incorporated to do the trick.

Another issue with importing it would be to rebuild it to use a 230/400 V system.
Or buying a 230/110 transformer.

A VFD would be nice but the motor powering the annealer is gear driven and low voltage.
On the rear of the unit there is a 120v receptacle with a low voltage transformer plugged into it.

All that would need to be done to convert it is to change the plug, receptacle, and small plug in transformer.
Probably a $30.00 conversion.

 

[Powermac]

Yes you very well might be right, i have not seen it physically, or have the wiring diagrams.

In this case id just change the motor to a same size 230 v unit, with adequate power, and run it through a simple VFD would cost more then 30 $ though.

 

[Edsel]

Progress report!

We had some fun this evening!

I had to use my backup Turn Counter... I had fitment issues with the original candidate.

 

[Edsel]

Gas fittings from first post, revised.



Parker Brass Pipe Fitting, 90 Degree Street Elbow, 1/4" NPT Male X 1/4" NPT Female: Industrial Pipe Fittings: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Added a 90 - degree elbow, as recommended by Thump_rrr.

Works pretty well!

 

[Edsel]

What's the best way to silence the "thwack" from the metal tongue that spins the brass as it resets?

 

[Edsel]

What's the best way to silence the "thwack" from the metal tongue that spins the brass as it resets?

Bump!

 

[osucowboy8]

Hi all,

First of all, thanks for posting this info. I have been a little bit disappointed with my Giraud annealer because I have been getting inconsistent results so I started looking around on the web and found this and the other thread. I got all the parts together to add the regulator (and I have the Potentiometer on order) and put it together tonight. The original fittings in the regulator were really hard to get out but with a lot of work I got it done. I put everything together and it seems to look right. I used pipe thread sealant on all of the 1/4" male fittings. Was that necessary? When I got it all together I lit the flame and it is really tiny, even at 60 psi. Is that how it's supposed to be? It's surely less than 1/2" long. I'm not sure it would even stay lit at 30 psi. I had the valve on the torch head all the way open and the flame is still really weak. What did I do wrong? Thanks again for posting the info. I'm a frequent lurker here and really enjoy the site even though I don't post much. Thanks in advance for your reply.

J

 

[Twoboxer]

Dunno, don't have one yet, and the videos don't immediately make clear what's hitting what.

Identify what striker hits what strikee, and put a piece of velcro tape on the strikee.

Of course, that may throw off the timing a bit How bad can it be lol?

 

[Thump_rrr]

When you look at it from the rear you will see that it's the slide returning to the starting position.
You will also notice that there is a spring to help the slide return to the starting position.
I use mine in the shop where the noise isn't an issue.

 

[osucowboy8]

Hi all,

First of all, thanks for posting this info. I have been a little bit disappointed with my Giraud annealer because I have been getting inconsistent results so I started looking around on the web and found this and the other thread. I got all the parts together to add the regulator (and I have the Potentiometer on order) and put it together tonight. The original fittings in the regulator were really hard to get out but with a lot of work I got it done. I put everything together and it seems to look right. I used pipe thread sealant on all of the 1/4" male fittings. Was that necessary? When I got it all together I lit the flame and it is really tiny, even at 60 psi. Is that how it's supposed to be? It's surely less than 1/2" long. I'm not sure it would even stay lit at 30 psi. I had the valve on the torch head all the way open and the flame is still really weak. What did I do wrong? Thanks again for posting the info. I'm a frequent lurker here and really enjoy the site even though I don't post much. Thanks in advance for your reply.

J

Anybody?

 

[Thump_rrr]

Hi all,

First of all, thanks for posting this info. I have been a little bit disappointed with my Giraud annealer because I have been getting inconsistent results so I started looking around on the web and found this and the other thread. I got all the parts together to add the regulator (and I have the Potentiometer on order) and put it together tonight. The original fittings in the regulator were really hard to get out but with a lot of work I got it done. I put everything together and it seems to look right. I used pipe thread sealant on all of the 1/4" male fittings. Was that necessary? When I got it all together I lit the flame and it is really tiny, even at 60 psi. Is that how it's supposed to be? It's surely less than 1/2" long. I'm not sure it would even stay lit at 30 psi. I had the valve on the torch head all the way open and the flame is still really weak. What did I do wrong? Thanks again for posting the info. I'm a frequent lurker here and really enjoy the site even though I don't post much. Thanks in advance for your reply.

J

First connect the hose directly to the tank and torch head and see if the problem still exists.
If it does it is either in the hose or torch head.
If it works properly then it's in your regulator assembly.
If it is in the regulator assembly start by removing the fitting at the outlet of the regulator and see if dialing the regulator up or down changes the flow.
You will notice that the male fittings with the threads on the outside have schraeder valves in them like a bicycle valve.
You can quickly depress the valve with a small screwdriver to see if the gas flows properly.
The first schraeder valve is on the fitting at the outlet of your regulator.
The second schraeder valve is at the outlet of the hose leading to the torch valve.
Obviously keep away from open flames or cigarettes while doing this.
If it is in the torch head then you need to remove the head where the flame comes out (your last photo) to inspect the orifice, which may fall out when you remove the head, for blockage.

Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[osucowboy8]

Thanks so much for the reply. I think I've finally got it working. I took everything apart and hooked up the fittings to the Giraud without the regulator just to make sure the inlet and outlet were ok. It worked fine so I set about trying to figure out what was wrong with the regulator. I eventually ended up taking it apart and putting it back together. Once I put it back together it seems to work quite a bit better. The flame is much stronger although it's still not quite as strong as I thought it would be even when the regulator is set to 60 psi.

I did manage to anneal 75 pieces of 308 last night but I ended up having to set the anneal time to about 14 seconds. I set the annealer with tempilaq 750 in the neck and 450 on the middle. Is that time consistent with what you are doing with the regulated gas system? Many thanks again for your help!

 

[cobbonthecorn]

I'm working on an annealer and would like some information if anyone would share. What is the 20lb tank pressure when it is full? With Benzomatic torch heads (self regulating) where are you setting the regulated tank outlet pressure going to the torch heads? How big a difference does this regulation make in keeping the process consistent? Thanks in advance!

 

[Sweetyzfd]

Tag for fixing mine later

 

[Fredo0621]

If anyone wants to embark on this journey you can get the same regulator from here: www.weldwarehouse.com (EP-80G $59.51*) for about 20.00 less with shipping.

Your Welcome

 

[1066]

I'm working on an annealer and would like some information if anyone would share. What is the 20lb tank pressure when it is full? With Benzomatic torch heads (self regulating) where are you setting the regulated tank outlet pressure going to the torch heads? How big a difference does this regulation make in keeping the process consistent? Thanks in advance!

I'm no expert (believe me), but my take on this is that from, say, 10%-80% full, the tank pressure won't change as long as the temperature stays constant.

Propane, contained in a tank, at moderate room temperature remains liquid at around 110-140 psi. I believe the often stated observation that the pressure drops as the tank depletes is due to the drop in tank temperature as the gas is used due to decompression.

A couple of thoughts about this - Developing more efficient burners, so reducing gas use/waste will result in lower temperature drop. The current commonly used burners appear to use only a small percentage of the available energy to actually heat the case, most blows by and is wasted.

A two burner set-up will result in more temperature/pressure drop.

MAP gas burns at a higher temperature, should use less gas.

Keeping the gas cylinder at a constant temperature will help, Maybe "cooling" fins round the cylinder would absorb ambient heat and keep the pressure stable.

Gentle heat, something like a heated seed tray might be enough to stabilize the temp/pressure.

I think an efficient burner could use about 1 oz of propane an hour - say 12 hours or more from a small 1lb cylinder. say 400 cases an hour or 4-5,000 cases. That's a lot of shooting for the average weekend shooting guy. Do you really need a 20lb cylinder if you can sort the temp/pressure issue?

I think we are at about the Ford Model "T" stage when it comes to annealing, we'll look back in a few years and be amazed at how crude it all was back then.

 

[Brian o 23]

Hi all,

First of all, thanks for posting this info. I have been a little bit disappointed with my Giraud annealer because I have been getting inconsistent results so I started looking around on the web and found this and the other thread. I got all the parts together to add the regulator (and I have the Potentiometer on order) and put it together tonight. The original fittings in the regulator were really hard to get out but with a lot of work I got it done. I put everything together and it seems to look right. I used pipe thread sealant on all of the 1/4" male fittings. Was that necessary? When I got it all together I lit the flame and it is really tiny, even at 60 psi. Is that how it's supposed to be? It's surely less than 1/2" long. I'm not sure it would even stay lit at 30 psi. I had the valve on the torch head all the way open and the flame is still really weak. What did I do wrong? Thanks again for posting the info. I'm a frequent lurker here and really enjoy the site even though I don't post much. Thanks in advance for your reply.

J

Could any tell me it the screen on the input side of the regulator could restrict the propane to flow ? With my regulator connected as above I can't get any gas to the tourch but if I connect the tank without the regulator I works fine.