Some here have earned or are attempting to earn the Distinguished Rifleman badge. What motivates the pursuit?
- Thread starter Sterling Shooter
- Start date
I only have a handful of rifle leg points but im distinguished in pistol. Beating your own high score was always my goal for each eic match, i mean vagina,vagina is what motivates the pursuit
I did it because it is what new SR shooters are supposed to do and it is a good way to get started and get your feet wet in HP shooting. DR badge is a nice accomplishment, but not a huge deal in my opinion. Any score in the Master range will pretty much get you a leg every time, and often times a score in the high end of the Expert class will as well. There's no time limit, so just about anyone could do it eventually. I know guys that are not great shooters, but have been after it for 10-plus years and are getting close. With enough matches, even a mediocre shooter will eventually get lucky enough times to get the badge. I am impressed by the occasional phenom that shows up and does it very quickly and makes it look easy. We have a local guy who is an F-Class shooter that looks like he is going to leg out in consecutive matches, just got another leg yesterday with a 477. I think he's just doing it to show he can, he's not even that interested in the Service Rifle. Makes all of the local SR crowd look silly.
The HM card is definitely a harder goal to achieve as you need to hold a 97% average over 3 consecutive 80-shot matches. One mistake and you are starting over from the beginning. Offhand shooting is what generally keeps people out of the HM class. You can shoot bad on your feet and still make Master pretty easily, but not High Master. Sterling, I assume you have an OTC HM card to go with your DR badge?
I don't think its as easy as you make out. According to the CMP there are 7720 DRBs as we speak.
CMP Club & Competition Tracker | Distinguished Shooters
That sounds like a lot, until you think about how long the program has been in existence. The DR program started in 1884. Its one thing to shoot Master & High Master Scores with Match Rifles and Tub guns, its a different matter altogether doing it with a Service Rifle.
Some say its easier today thin in the past. When I started for example, rapid fire was 50 & 60 seconds respectively, you couldn't use ground cloths, and had to load from the person (couldn't lay your next clip on the ground next to your mat). You had to use issue ammo. Then the DCM charged $1 to shoot the EIC match.
I am not one who believes it easier. 10% is 10% whether you use M1s or ARs. Also you use to be able to shoot Springfield's.
It's a worthy goal. It takes dedication. Like anything else, the harder you work the quicker you reach the goal.
If it was easy as some say, I believe there would be more then 7720 DR badges earned in the last 129 years. But I could be wrong.
CMP Club & Competition Tracker | Distinguished Shooters
That sounds like a lot, until you think about how long the program has been in existence. The DR program started in 1884. Its one thing to shoot Master & High Master Scores with Match Rifles and Tub guns, its a different matter altogether doing it with a Service Rifle.
Some say its easier today thin in the past. When I started for example, rapid fire was 50 & 60 seconds respectively, you couldn't use ground cloths, and had to load from the person (couldn't lay your next clip on the ground next to your mat). You had to use issue ammo. Then the DCM charged $1 to shoot the EIC match.
I am not one who believes it easier. 10% is 10% whether you use M1s or ARs. Also you use to be able to shoot Springfield's.
It's a worthy goal. It takes dedication. Like anything else, the harder you work the quicker you reach the goal.
If it was easy as some say, I believe there would be more then 7720 DR badges earned in the last 129 years. But I could be wrong.
Well, it's a lot easier to shoot score that WOULD have made the cut in years gone by, but as you say, 10% is 10%. When I started in this game, the M14 was THE Service Rifle, end of story. At that time, a 470 would pretty well make the cut, anywhere in the country. We had a leg match at a shoot in KS just this past weekend where the cut was something like a 484. If I recall correctly, I think the winner nailed down a 492 for the top leg. Easier to shoot those kinds of scores with an AR, but now everyone's doing it, and you're right back to the top 10% being the top 10% of a much more demanding field.
Troy Lawton just made his Distinguished within the past couple years, and he was as proud of that as I've ever seen him of his shooting accomplishments with other disciplines. Bear in mind, this is the guy who shot the first perfect 800 across the course (at Perry, during the Nationals no less!), is a former Olympic running game shooter, and has shot not one, but several perfect 40x40s in Silhouette competition. I believe he was the first to ever post a perfect score in that discipline as well. When he took up Service Rifle and decided to go for his Distinguished Badge, he still regarded it as a major accomplishment and was absolutely beaming when he took the stage at Perry for the presentation.
Troy Lawton just made his Distinguished within the past couple years, and he was as proud of that as I've ever seen him of his shooting accomplishments with other disciplines. Bear in mind, this is the guy who shot the first perfect 800 across the course (at Perry, during the Nationals no less!), is a former Olympic running game shooter, and has shot not one, but several perfect 40x40s in Silhouette competition. I believe he was the first to ever post a perfect score in that discipline as well. When he took up Service Rifle and decided to go for his Distinguished Badge, he still regarded it as a major accomplishment and was absolutely beaming when he took the stage at Perry for the presentation.
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Not saying it's easy, it's just not the be-all, end-all of shooting accomplishments that some would make it out to be. It's a worthy goal and will help you build solid shooting fundamentals to work with. My point is more that your leg points last forever, so persistence should eventually pay off if you stick with it. In theory, a guy could chase it for 30 years or more, and I'm sure there are some who have. As stated earlier, I know several that have been at it for over 10 and closer to 15 years. A 15-year chaser could shoot as many as 60 leg matches in that time period - 3/year + Camp Perry. All you have to do is make the top 10% 4 or 5 times and you have the badge. I know lots of very average shooters and even some poor shooters with Leg Points. I also know a few very average shooters with a DR badge. It happens. Legs will be awarded at different point levels depending on where you are and who shows up, but 470 is pretty average. The cut at Camp Perry is always right around 470, I believe it was 471 this year. It seems like it's been in the upper 460's in some previous years. Don't necessarily need great scores, just better than the other guys that showed up.
There are certainly more impressive ways to get it, and shooting scores in the 490's is impressive no matter what. I was squadded for a day this year at Camp Perry with the youngest-ever DR and HM, he is 14. I believe he made both when he was still 13 and he beat Tyler Rico by 3 weeks. That's impressive. Stumbling into 30 Leg points after 10 or 15 years is not that impressive, but the badge they give you is still the same. You will never get a HM card that way, as you need to keep up the 97% average for 240 consecutive shots, regardless of what your competition is doing.
Having earned both a DR badge and a HM card, I can say that the HM card took a lot more work.
There are certainly more impressive ways to get it, and shooting scores in the 490's is impressive no matter what. I was squadded for a day this year at Camp Perry with the youngest-ever DR and HM, he is 14. I believe he made both when he was still 13 and he beat Tyler Rico by 3 weeks. That's impressive. Stumbling into 30 Leg points after 10 or 15 years is not that impressive, but the badge they give you is still the same. You will never get a HM card that way, as you need to keep up the 97% average for 240 consecutive shots, regardless of what your competition is doing.
Having earned both a DR badge and a HM card, I can say that the HM card took a lot more work.
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A HM card is usually in the works if you're actively going after those. You can go Distinguished anywhere, just as you can go HM anywhere, but there's only one place, and one shot at the President's Hundred Tab each year. I've known some very accomplished shooters who never made that one. Ditto for the other shooting disciplines as well, such as the Grand Slam award for Silhouette shooters.
Bassham says you should have multiple goals, and never want to achieve one without having another waiting right behind it. There's a lot to that, and I tend to agree with him.
Bassham says you should have multiple goals, and never want to achieve one without having another waiting right behind it. There's a lot to that, and I tend to agree with him.
I agree with Eric on this one, guys make the DR badge more than it is and pressure out during a EIC match. There are also many, many great shooters that are not Distinguished, like Carl Bernosky and Nancy Gallagher! Although Carl is Int'l Distinguished. The badges are great achievements but they really are nothing compared to a HM card. HM across the course is a tough card to get in places where conditions actually change each match.
Interesting enough though was right after I went out I got a HM card in LR in only 5 matches. I thought well I guess they don't give those badges away. I thought it was a lot easier than legging out because I wasn't even really trying to get it. I wasn't starting from scratch though and I had a well built Palma rifle. but now I have to shoot 97%+ each time out and that takes a little fun out of it.
Interesting enough though was right after I went out I got a HM card in LR in only 5 matches. I thought well I guess they don't give those badges away. I thought it was a lot easier than legging out because I wasn't even really trying to get it. I wasn't starting from scratch though and I had a well built Palma rifle. but now I have to shoot 97%+ each time out and that takes a little fun out of it.
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Nancy IS Distinguished, done with an M14 many years ago. So is Sherri, well before she ever enlisted or went to AMU. Michelle's not, but she's never done anything much with Service Rifles. Mid's been Distinguished roughly since the Coolidge administration.
If we want to get into difficulty here, let's talk about Smallbore prone. I currently have an Expert card there, and am working on Master. There is NO High Master, and the cut to make plain ol' Master is 99.5%. Virtually every High Power National Champion we've had in the past 30 years or more ALL have lengthy backgrounds in Smallbore Prone. There's a reason for this; it teaches you perfection in executing shot after shot with a consistency that makes HP look downright sloppy by comparison.
Incidentally, the one exception to this trend is Mitchell Maxberry. I don't believe Mitch ever messed with SB, but I could be wrong.
Incidentally, the one exception to this trend is Mitchell Maxberry. I don't believe Mitch ever messed with SB, but I could be wrong.
I went DP IN 6 eic matches over 8 months(new year in there) and earned the P100 on the first and only trip to perry, so I'm confused, are y'all sayin I suck and throw those things away and never speak of them?
Pretty easy, huh?
I'm not Distinguished, but heck, I competed for it simply because...shit...someone (Uncle Sam and my 1stSgt) was willing to pay me to shoot. How much better does it get than that? 
Yup.
I saw a TOP leg go for 450 this summer. I've also seen them go in the 490s at Interservice.
One still has to shoot into the top 10%. Most don't have the desire nor dedication to do it.
I earned my first points in 2009. This past season I did well enough to bring me to within 10 points. Shooting at Camp Perry and earning such a badge is the pinnacle of shooting as far as I'm concerned. However, others have posted "meh..." and that's fine. I did get my expert card shooting OTC, but those matches give you sighters and that's the big difference. You better know your dope for a NM course because there is little room for error. 300 rapid is usually the critical stage for most I think it's a more prestigious match, much like the President's 100. I hope to wrap it up this next season while shooting with the Ohio Rifle & Pistol Assoc. My motivation? To proudly, yet humbly wear that badge on my coat or hat. It has become an obsession quite honestly. It's an elite group and congratulations to all who have earned the badge. I know what it takes....so far. Good luck and good shooting!
Doug
Doug
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Far from it, I am a special case though cause I was set up for success. I was attached as a pic up shooter to the amu sp team, I shot all day every day with the best there is in the sport for an entire competitive season. The guys woulda ragged on me something fierce if I wouldn't have made the top 100.
I personally don't care what the meh'ers say, I think the two awards are very prestigious and mean a lot, I am very proud of mine and once I'm out of kimchi land I will be back at it tryin to go double distinguished and p100 in rifle
I am motivated to become a better marksman/shooter, build better positions, better all comp scores, measure my successes against my peers, and meet my goal of going distinguished in rifle in the next two years. After that, I'll move on to pistol.
If the DR badge was making the top 10percent of all shooters in the match, including those already distinguished, then is really tough. But top 10 percent of non distinguished is quite different. That is why the p100 is a good bit tougher to make the cut. Both are cool to have but the 100 is tougher to get.
Nobody is taking anything away from it, I am only saying that some people think it's everything and once they get it they hang up the guns and walk away from it all. Or that if you're not Distinguished you ain't nothing. Try making the 2620 club with a service pistol and tell me what was tougher to get. I took 32 points in 12 months and made the top 20 in P100, but i'm still no HM in pistol.
Badges are great but they should not be the end of the journey-HM cards are a whole 'nother level.
I need to build a service rifle. Probably an AR 15 because that's what I was trained on in the USMC. I doubt that I will have the time or money to pursue HM but distinguished is doable. I only live 3 hours from camp Perry. I really need to find someone local who has done it so I can learn from them.
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The Gold Badge doesn't make you God's Gift to Shooting.
It shows you reached (at some time) mastery of the basics of the service pistol or rifle to consistently shoot within the top 10% of all random, non-Distinguished shooters to show up at the same range on the same day, in the same environmental conditions, with the equivalent equipment and ammunition.
Not one single match "Back in the day," but over a number of matches, showing up cold, no spotters, winner-take-all and Leg Points only to the top 10%. You only get so many chances per year to show your stuff or crash-and-burn.
Didn't matter whether it was one-handed bullseye, two-handed combat, Camp Perry/bullseye, "Rose shooting glasses" or completely jocked-up in combat or SOF uniform.
Those who wear one recognize and acknowledge a certain level of technical expertise amongst peers whether the wearer is military (active, reserve, retired, cadet/midshipman -- no matter WHICH service) or civilian, senior or junior. Usually someone who has spent a lot of time and ammunition figuring the difference between what works and what doesn't, and wearing out barrels.
Oh, and almost anyone can earn one.
It's been said, "It's amazing how much luckier I get the more I practice."
It shows you reached (at some time) mastery of the basics of the service pistol or rifle to consistently shoot within the top 10% of all random, non-Distinguished shooters to show up at the same range on the same day, in the same environmental conditions, with the equivalent equipment and ammunition.
Not one single match "Back in the day," but over a number of matches, showing up cold, no spotters, winner-take-all and Leg Points only to the top 10%. You only get so many chances per year to show your stuff or crash-and-burn.
Didn't matter whether it was one-handed bullseye, two-handed combat, Camp Perry/bullseye, "Rose shooting glasses" or completely jocked-up in combat or SOF uniform.
Those who wear one recognize and acknowledge a certain level of technical expertise amongst peers whether the wearer is military (active, reserve, retired, cadet/midshipman -- no matter WHICH service) or civilian, senior or junior. Usually someone who has spent a lot of time and ammunition figuring the difference between what works and what doesn't, and wearing out barrels.
Oh, and almost anyone can earn one.
It's been said, "It's amazing how much luckier I get the more I practice."
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Interesting, I always found the 200yd, off hand slow fire to be the maker or breaker of the match day. Rapid fire always seemed to be gravy.
The Gold Badge doesn't make you God's Gift to Shooting.
It shows you reached (at some time) mastery of the basics of the service pistol or rifle to consistently shoot within the top 10% of all random, non-Distinguished shooters to show up at the same range on the same day, in the same environmental conditions, with the equivalent equipment and ammunition.
Not one single match "Back in the day," but over a number of matches, showing up cold, no spotters, winner-take-all and Leg Points only to the top 10%. You only get so many chances per year to show your stuff or crash-and-burn.
Didn't matter whether it was one-handed bullseye, two-handed combat, Camp Perry/bullseye, "Rose shooting glasses" or completely jocked-up in combat or SOF uniform.
Those who wear one recognize and acknowledge a certain level of technical expertise amongst peers whether the wearer is military (active, reserve, retired, cadet/midshipman -- no matter WHICH service) or civilian, senior or junior. Usually someone who has spent a lot of time and ammunition figuring the difference between what works and what doesn't, and wearing out barrels.
Oh, and almost anyone can earn one.
It's been said, "It's amazing how much luckier I get the more I practice."
I think this is a great take on the subject. I am not trying to demean the accomplishment or those that have earned it, as said earlier, I've done it myself. I am proud of the accomplishment and I wear the little pin on my shooting hat like lots of other HP shooters do. It's just that in the grand scheme of things, I see it as more of a starting point then an end-goal. I've accomplished a lot more since then and intend to continue doing so.
At some point I would like to go after the Distinguished Pistol badge, if my rifle shooting schedule ever allows for it.
Sinister/Erud,
you've hit on the head, a great achievement but not the biggest achievement. I like to antagonize the locals around me by saying anybody can get one badge, it's takes a real man to get two! The second one is easier because you know how to focus training better, but stopping what you are already good at to start at the bottom is tough.
To get back to the OP question- what motivated me to get DP was watching a friend of mine that wasn't 130 pounds soaking wet just destroy the 10 ring with a 1911 and match hardball. IF HE COULD DO IT, I COULD DO IT! plus hearing about the history of Camp Perry and shooting with 800 pistol shooters or 1200 rifle shooters.
you've hit on the head, a great achievement but not the biggest achievement. I like to antagonize the locals around me by saying anybody can get one badge, it's takes a real man to get two! The second one is easier because you know how to focus training better, but stopping what you are already good at to start at the bottom is tough.
To get back to the OP question- what motivated me to get DP was watching a friend of mine that wasn't 130 pounds soaking wet just destroy the 10 ring with a 1911 and match hardball. IF HE COULD DO IT, I COULD DO IT! plus hearing about the history of Camp Perry and shooting with 800 pistol shooters or 1200 rifle shooters.
You could not be further from the truth. The truth is "it ain't over till it's over" amazing things happen at EIC matches. Never give up until your score card is turned in.
I wasn't implying that after the 200yd slow, it was all gravy and easy peasy; just that the 200yd slow fire always seemed to be what hung people up at MSR matches...
I see what y'all are saying, initially I took it as if you were saying it's a joke and no big deal, I see what you mean now and do agree. Also I do think there is a big difference in what matches one has legged in, legging at perry is a totally different thing than legging at say all army. In my opinion the toughest legs with the steepest competition are at the interservice matches. As mentioned before ya gotta remember there are plenty of folks that have been trying for YEARS to leg out, and for that reason I always make a big deal over and tell anyone who does it how awsome it is and great shooting
P.S. I enjoy the debate between sp and sr guys, the argument on who's sport is tougher to go p100 or distinguished in, sr is more popular and more competitors(read easier for women and children) so more legs available in eics yet harder to get in top 100, as opposed to sp that's a smaller sport (read tougher sport)so tougher to leg in but less competitors to make the top 100
P.S. I enjoy the debate between sp and sr guys, the argument on who's sport is tougher to go p100 or distinguished in, sr is more popular and more competitors(read easier for women and children) so more legs available in eics yet harder to get in top 100, as opposed to sp that's a smaller sport (read tougher sport)so tougher to leg in but less competitors to make the top 100
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for rifle, this year, you needed a 471 of 500 (94.2%) to get leg points at perry and a 284 of 300 (94.6%) to make the p100.
So basically you could shoot a 95% in one 30 round match to get a P100 tab. But you need to shoot 95% in a minimum of three 50 round matches to get Distinguished. i don't get how P100 could be considered harder.
for me, Distinguished was something to pursue that would more or less objectively rate my progress relative to others, just like other non-shooting competition and goals. DP is cool, i just personally have no interest in pistol or bullseye type shooting anymore. I stopped shooting HP once I got the badge because the badge was the goal and 3gun and sniper/practical matches are infinitely more fun and challenging, and I don't have time to do all of them.
So basically you could shoot a 95% in one 30 round match to get a P100 tab. But you need to shoot 95% in a minimum of three 50 round matches to get Distinguished. i don't get how P100 could be considered harder.
for me, Distinguished was something to pursue that would more or less objectively rate my progress relative to others, just like other non-shooting competition and goals. DP is cool, i just personally have no interest in pistol or bullseye type shooting anymore. I stopped shooting HP once I got the badge because the badge was the goal and 3gun and sniper/practical matches are infinitely more fun and challenging, and I don't have time to do all of them.
I currently have leg points in both pistol and rifle. I am planning to start shooting Hi-power again to be able to get more rifle points.
Taliv,
The scores for the P100 vary from year to year, depending on conditions. Normally, the take is a 95 or better on each yard line, and you'll be in the cut. Bad OH on the 200, and you're already playing catch-up. As someone else already mentioned, the 300 RF is usually the real killer. You get one shot to nail it, and if you don't, you're pretty well done. I couldn't begin to tell you how many X-ring size groups I've seen fired in the P100 over the years, that sat squarely mid-ring out in the 8 or 9 rings. Doesn't really matter, since either will pretty well end your quest for the year, and you can come back and try it again next time, thank you for playing.
While that may be true for leg matches as well, you can shoot leg matches all over the country, in diverse weather conditions, and against very different crowds of your fellow competitors. Choose poorly, and you'll find yourself competing at one of those matches where the cut will be somewhere north of 485 or so. Point is, you get three attempts per year, four if you shoot the Nationals as well. For the P100, you get exactly ONE chance per year, in whatever weather the Camp Perry gods grant you that day, rain or shine, calm skies or gales. Yeah, it's harder.
The scores for the P100 vary from year to year, depending on conditions. Normally, the take is a 95 or better on each yard line, and you'll be in the cut. Bad OH on the 200, and you're already playing catch-up. As someone else already mentioned, the 300 RF is usually the real killer. You get one shot to nail it, and if you don't, you're pretty well done. I couldn't begin to tell you how many X-ring size groups I've seen fired in the P100 over the years, that sat squarely mid-ring out in the 8 or 9 rings. Doesn't really matter, since either will pretty well end your quest for the year, and you can come back and try it again next time, thank you for playing.
While that may be true for leg matches as well, you can shoot leg matches all over the country, in diverse weather conditions, and against very different crowds of your fellow competitors. Choose poorly, and you'll find yourself competing at one of those matches where the cut will be somewhere north of 485 or so. Point is, you get three attempts per year, four if you shoot the Nationals as well. For the P100, you get exactly ONE chance per year, in whatever weather the Camp Perry gods grant you that day, rain or shine, calm skies or gales. Yeah, it's harder.
Won at 200 and lost at 600. I was in the chase for leg points and my eyesight started taking a dive. I miss the shit out of it. I've shot them in 104 degrees and in drizzling rain-big fun. As far as the DR badge I would say more than anything its a personal accomplishment. It damn sure not easy- there's always a bunch of shooters who leave without earning any leg points.
Quite correct Kevin shot one SB match got a classification and that was it. After having some bad Eley I decided if I couldn't load it I wasn't going to shoot it .
