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HELP -nothing I have tried will fire form brass in this Remington 700 270 factory gun

rayvandervort

Ray VanDervort
Minuteman
Jan 18, 2021
54
9
Apalachin
vrr.dyndns.biz
Research, friends who have worked at Smith and Wesson and Remington by phone were unable to help. I will start with the back story. This gun and I have not been handloading for a long time but my son and I are sharing a renewed hobby - reloading for accuracy. In time he hopes to invest in equipment to try PRC class events. I merely wish to one hole and varmint hunt. My gun shoots fine - Ruger 220 Swift. He has picked the Remington Mountain version 700 all stainless light barrel in 270 as his learning tool while we gain knowledge in accuracy development. This gun had only had neck sizing done years ago when I shot enough to use for hunting. Now that brass 1) need to resize to chamber good as the taper is tight, 2) full length resizing is what we all do for accuracy. So as I began our first effort I found the dies I had bought and never used for FL resizing were under SAAMI at the tip of taper near shoulder. I sent them back to OEM who replaced with new dies and I began FL sizing but an had added both bullet and case comparators to our tools and found cases were datum/base all different lengths after fireforming. The longest has been proven to be an accurate representation of what is desired for proper head space control. These measure 2.048 ( our comparator is .377, marked .375 and expected to be as target .375 for a 270 SAAMI matched goal, thus 2.048 is relative and would measure a bit shorter but is near SAAMI chamber spec). Adding a .002 thick piece of tape to base of such a shell makes it to long to properly chamber, thus I know 2.048 is a good fireform and would want to resize to 2.046-2.045. Any batch of shells fired with various brass, various powder levels, various jump of lands, and various case lengths all come back with most cases with little change in OAL to datum. Inspection with a borescope shows no obvious issue in chamber. Neck is measured as best I can to be over SAAMI spec in vicinity of .311-.314 in stead of goal .388 +.02. Chamber tip of taper is tight to spec. Head space is tight to spec based on 2.048 cases that have fireformed. Thinking the ejector and claw of bolt was not engaging these short cases when the bullet is chambered until fired, I chamber a short empty case and it has engaged the claw since the bolt pulls and ejects the case - so that is not a contribution. Recent loads were same powder and 6 different land offsets. six rows of spent cases in the box - four rows- primers normal, fifth row had 2 primers hanging out the case a few thousands but no sigh of pressure - good radius on corners. sixth row, every primer hung out between .004-.009". All primers in the box were re3viewed with a magnifier and show machine marked as seen on bolt face center around fire pin center piece. These marks are the fine circular markings of normal course lath turn work and match bolt and spent primers, yet absolutely no flattening and powder levels are 75% of max ( Win 760 ball 53.5 grns on these loads ). Labradar data has proven very good, even on these last loads with one set at less than 20ES, groups however keep getting worse ( wind conditions, temperature and fouling are issues to these latter rounds). Some of the brass - thinking annealing is needed - has been reloaded several times, so this last round were first reloads of once fired Remington factory loads. Being once fired, they had similar variable lengths to the reloads prior which might have been hard. So all brass I have, is exhibiting the same lack of fireforming with exceptions to 2.048. They range from 2.033 -2.048 with most falling 2.040 +-.002. Note now that this difference is about .008 thousands which matches the primer hang out of .008 or so. I think this is key to understanding the issue but have no idea what to do to resolve this so I can FL resize and have consistency. Neck lengths are also not growing and are equally in variance in accordance with what is new at SAAMI and under with a variance fighting accuracy as well. Die button is on the set point of .275 for all loads discussed, although the next round will find that button has been polished to .274 for better neck tension, which might be a mistake for this chamber, as I said, i recently measured the neck to be a bit loose. Your HELP and ideas of how to find this cause is desired, other than barreling this gun, which may not solve it. That said, also is important in case we use this action to make a PRC gun from that action and end up with a repeat carry on issue from the action, not the barrel/chamber. Help this frustrated father help his son!
 
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yeah, holy crap.... If I deciphered that wall of text properly, the issue is that after shooting some 1x brass, there is more variance than you would like in the base to shoulder datum line measurement, making it unclear how much to bump the shoulders on resizing. Couple things:
- Make sure you're measuring all cases with the primers out.
- I've been told (and observed) that due to brass spring-back and other factors, it can take multiple firings for the brass to fill the chamber to point you actually need to bump the shoulder.
- It sounds like your testing with the tape proved that 2.048 is probably the max. It may just take the other cases another firing or two to fill-out to that. Annealing could help that process along.
 
As mentioned above. Knock the primers out first. Remington 700s like to leave a huge crater on the primer that will mess with your measurements. Unscrew your sizing die, and just resize the necks of your cases, because sometimes it takes more than one firing to completely fire form your brass.
 
I agree with the above^^^. Did I read right, 75% case fill? Are you building enough pressure to expand the cases? In the old days of speed chasing, a heavy bolt lift was juusstt right. Cases fully formed to chamber. :eek:
 
Are you seating the bullets out into the lands? That will help generate more pressure to blow the cases out.
 
What could make the primers protrude slightly out of the case beyond the case head without being flattened (other than cratering around the pin strike which 700's do sometimes)? Wouldnt that mean the case head isn't touching the bolt face during kaboom? Dirty bolt face around the rim? At first I thought maybe light load but his load matches well with my nosler manual.
 
Like several of the previous posters, I think you've got a large factory chamber, and the lighter loads and generous chamber aren't allowing the brass to fully expand to match the chamber. Also, sometimes it takes multiple loadings. If you wanted, you could try the wildcatting trick of loading 5gr of Bullseye and then filling with cream of wheat and a toilet paper "plug" and firing. Add a grain of Bullseye until the case is fully formed to chamber. Then use that amount of Bullseye to do the rest of the brass. Probably over 10 grains for a .270. Would be tough for me to do with the primer shortage today though. Jamming the bullet in the lands with a full power load also works. This is all assuming your headspace isn't way oversize.
 
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yeah, holy crap.... If I deciphered that wall of text properly, the issue is that after shooting some 1x brass, there is more variance than you would like in the base to shoulder datum line measurement, making it unclear how much to bump the shoulders on resizing. Couple things:
- Make sure you're measuring all cases with the primers out.
- I've been told (and observed) that due to brass spring-back and other factors, it can take multiple firings for the brass to fill the chamber to point you actually need to bump the shoulder.
- It sounds like your testing with the tape proved that 2.048 is probably the max. It may just take the other cases another firing or two to fill-out to that. Annealing could help that process along.
no way to bump a short shoulder!. Primers are out. Some of the brass exhibiting the issue have been neck sized more than 10 times years ago, measure the same as once fired brass. Thanks for trying. Hope more feed back yet to come.
 
As mentioned above. Knock the primers out first. Remington 700s like to leave a huge crater on the primer that will mess with your measurements. Unscrew your sizing die, and just resize the necks of your cases, because sometimes it takes more than one firing to completely fire form your brass.
how about more than 10 times fired? I agree more than once but some brass has ben neck sized and reloaded several times and still not to full chamber.
 
What could make the primers protrude slightly out of the case beyond the case head without being flattened (other than cratering around the pin strike which 700's do sometimes)? Wouldnt that mean the case head isn't touching the bolt face during kaboom? Dirty bolt face around the rim? At first I thought maybe light load but his load matches well with my nosler manual.
I was in fact trying to prove to my self this was the case. To me this dis-proves this issue. I load a case and simply eject it, since the claw and ejector spit out the bullet, it is tight to bolt face. I suggest it might be possible that the firing pin might kick the bullet forward to shoulder before the primer is ignited. Then the primer might get pushed back and the case gets locked by my tight taper chamber. The neck being loose is not retaining the load from moving in this instant. This ejector spring is a stiff one and factory and not gummed up, so In my opinion if this is the case, others would be finding the same issue and those with a weak spring would have more of an issue.
 
In short, this is not a wildcat. It is a SAAMI chamber except the neck is a bit loose. I do not yet have a resolution. I feel normal rounds and brass and several firings should show at least some growth, but that is not happening. Shells that are long stay long but still chamber properly, shells that are short stay short load after load. Once fired brass does the same thing. Even the necks do not grow. LabRadar data for velocity closely matches the loads so the pressures must also match. I am simply at a lost to explain this. Hoping this site will provide some more help. I appreciate the efforts received thus far and look forward to more.
 
Meh, have the barrel set back and chambered properly.

Too much headspace. At least based on my best interpretation of that wall of text.
 
SAAMI spec is 2.0487 and my largest case that comfortably chambers is 2.048, so I do not think so.

Except not all your brass is expanding to the size.

So, your brass is either undersized or your chamber is oversized.

Think all you want, it’s either one of those or your explanation is incorrect.
 
Except not all your brass is expanding to the size.

So, your brass is either undersized or your chamber is oversized.

Think all you want, it’s either one of those or your explanation is incorrect.
I do not follow your statement. Brass OAL varies from 2.033 to 2.048. 2.048 I have no issue. it is the variance in fireformed length.
 
Except not all your brass is expanding to the size.

So, your brass is either undersized or your chamber is oversized.

Think all you want, it’s either one of those or your explanation is incorrect.
Id listen he might know about a long chamber job lol
 
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how about more than 10 times fired? I agree more than once but some brass has ben neck sized and reloaded several times and still not to full chamber.
It should be fully formed to the chamber dimensions by now. What are you using to neck size? Is there a chance you are inadvertently bumping the shoulders? Has this brass been annealed?

ETA I just went back and saw you didn't anneal yet. I would give that a try.
 
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I was in fact trying to prove to my self this was the case. To me this dis-proves this issue. I load a case and simply eject it, since the claw and ejector spit out the bullet, it is tight to bolt face. I suggest it might be possible that the firing pin might kick the bullet forward to shoulder before the primer is ignited. Then the primer might get pushed back and the case gets locked by my tight taper chamber. The neck being loose is not retaining the load from moving in this instant. This ejector spring is a stiff one and factory and not gummed up, so In my opinion if this is the case, others would be finding the same issue and those with a weak spring would have more of an issue.
The ejector will push the case head away from the bolt face by an amount equal to the difference between bolt face to claw, minus case rim thickness.

Remove your ejector and fireform with projectiles seated hard into the lands, heavy projectiles and fast burning powder will give your stubborn brass the best chance of a good strong fireform.

Usual disclaimer about pressure and blowing yourself up etc etc etc apply and if your brass is mixed manufacture and unknown firings (hardness/springback etc) then all bets as to consistent forming and sizing are off.

Anneal and sort that shit or pony up and buy new brass and keep track of it.
 
I think @Dthomas3523 is right about the brass being small for the chamber

And IF I understand the issue: the problem is basically that not all fire forms are a good representation of the chamber

If I understand this following quote correctly you are NOWHERE near pressure (likely due to that spacious chamber Dave mentioned maybe?)
...yet absolutely no flattening and powder levels are 75% of max ( Win 760 ball 53.5 grns on these loads )...
Quick look at Hodgdon site shows 51-55gr to be a lawyer approved published range
IMG_20210306_062654.jpg


And you are in the middle of this range with a spacious chamber... So my ASSUMPTION is that you could start a ladder moving up in say .3gr until you actually see some pressure signs.

At the point you start flattening all your primers and getting a little brass flow at the ejector you should be able to correct any issues with the ejector possibly holding the brass and with any hardness variance from case to case.

Basically... Put some powder in the case and it'll FIT that chamber

Now please don't be an over achiever on pressure, and when you see signs of pressure don't go higher for this experiment... back up for your normal load as well because things can get hotter as we get closer to summer
 
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Get some 130-140 VLD style bullets and seat them long. Jammed into the lands. Load some shells to maximum volume based on your manual. Your cases should blow out. Using small bullets and light powder charges is not the way to fireform brass.
 
You have two choices. You can seat the bullets long enough to jam into the rifling and hold the brass firmly against the bolt face or you can lightly lube the case before firing.
 
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Like several of the previous posters, I think you've got a large factory chamber, and the lighter loads and generous chamber aren't allowing the brass to fully expand to match the chamber. Also, sometimes it takes multiple loadings. If you wanted, you could try the wildcatting trick of loading 5gr of Bullseye and then filling with cream of wheat and a toilet paper "plug" and firing. Add a grain of Bullseye until the case is fully formed to chamber. Then use that amount of Bullseye to do the rest of the brass. Probably over 10 grains for a .270. Would be tough for me to do with the primer shortage today though. Jamming the bullet in the lands with a full power load also works. This is all assuming your headspace isn't way oversize.
This one piece of gold here may have been over looked. This what I believe to be the correct way to do it. I shoot 6.5mm-06ai which is much more difficult to load than 270 and this way of fire forming is what works. I use 15grns of Titegroup, packed cream of wheat or gerbers baby food rice, pack that down tight with a Allen wrench or other object, 1/3 of a foam earplug smashed in, then go bang bang. Clean everything up, size, should be ready to go.

I do it a bit differently overall though due to it being a 6.5-06AI. This is my full process from new brass to first full power load. After fire forming the shoulder is still a bit rounded, after the 2nd full power load it is pretty sharp with best results achieved on shots 3-4.

Full size 280 (cam over),
270 (cam over),
6.5x47 lapua (neck only)
Trim to 2.480 for fire forming
6.5mm mandrel expand
Neck turn to max of 0.012" thick.

Fire form
Load with 15gn of tite group, cream of wheat, earplug
Bang bang

Trim to 2.440
Chamfer id/od
Uniform primer pocket and flash deburr
Anneal 58
Size 6.5mm-06ai

Load primer, mandrel size 6.5mm
55.3 gn of rl22
142grn bullet
 
I think @Dthomas3523 is right about the brass being small for the chamber

And IF I understand the issue: the problem is basically that not all fire forms are a good representation of the chamber

If I understand this following quote correctly you are NOWHERE near pressure (likely due to that spacious chamber Dave mentioned maybe?)

Quick look at Hodgdon site shows 51-55gr to be a lawyer approved published range
View attachment 7574580

And you are in the middle of this range with a spacious chamber... So my ASSUMPTION is that you could start a ladder moving up in say .3gr until you actually see some pressure signs.

At the point you start flattening all your primers and getting a little brass flow at the ejector you should be able to correct any issues with the ejector possibly holding the brass and with any hardness variance from case to case.

Basically... Put some powder in the case and it'll FIT that chamber

Now please don't be an over achiever on pressure, and when you see signs of pressure don't go higher for this experiment... back up for your normal load as well because things can get hotter as we get closer to summer
I will do this but tell you all - the chamber is SAAMI TIGHT except neck. Period. Tip of taper is known, base is only measure not taken. Neck is over size by .002-.003 as measured with long reach ball feeler and mic'd. So my plan is new brass, heavier bullet - 130 on hand - max powder and see what I get. I thank all who tried to help.
 
Get some 130-140 VLD style bullets

Oh, and here are some .270 140 gr bullets for sale (hahaha...yes, I'm blushing at this blatant plug for my advert! haha)

 
Please OP let us know what you try and how it works for you. I see several methods that should accomplish your goals.
 
A couple thoughts-

What is your velocity with the 110?
Where are you on the velocity range for your powder? Lower, mid, upper.
How much smaller in diameter at the .200" line and the shoulder are the sized cases than the fired cases?
What type of finish do you have on that chamber? Mirror smooth? Any marks or gouges?

My thought is that these cases aren't growing because the chamber walls are holding the brass in place. I'm guessing this is due to the tight chamber and light load ( 75% of max is absolute trash, BTW ). If I assume that you are smart enough to measure things correctly, then there aren't many other explanations left. Just FYI, there comes a point where the pursuit of smart and smarter leads back to stupid (see references to 90% of engineers). Not saying you're there, but you can see the exit from where you're at. Example- I have no idea why you are trying to fireform with reduced loads of slow powder and a light bullet without jamming into the lands or a false shoulder.

Use the false shoulder method with a heavy for caliber bullet jammed .010-.015" into the lands in front of a stout (90% of max) dose of slow powder and these problems will go away. From your reasoning I can tell you don't understand what happens internally when a cartridge is fired. That's OK, you don't need to, you only need to follow the directions of those that do. No need to reinvent the wheel here.
 
the chamber is SAAMI TIGHT except neck. Period. Tip of taper is known, base is only measure not taken.
How are you concluding it's tight? Go gauge plus shim won't close? What's the gauge you are using measure with your comparator?
So my plan is new brass, heavier bullet - 130 on hand - max powder and see what I get.
I think once you up the pressure you'll have no choice but to get more consistent brass back from the rifle
 
Yeah, he's using the 2.048" fired brass with tape on the base, which won't go. So he knows where the chamber headspace stops using his fired brass. He's using a SWAG to compare his comparator findings with SAAMI spec. He states the neck is "loose" @ .311-.314" (whatever that means SAAMI is .310-.3108") and over his goal of .388 + .020". There is zero sense made in this portion of his OP word salad. Best I can tell, he would like the neck to be tighter by a few thousandths.

The backed out primers tell the whole story. There's only two ways that happens and one of them is what I described.

I also do not lubricate the shoulders. Ring around the top half of the case neck, ring on point of the shoulder, and a final ring on the .200" line - done. This is to specifically control this dimension, and because I do not think it is needed.
 
Yeah, he's using the 2.048" fired brass with tape on the base, which won't go. So he knows where the chamber headspace stops using his fired brass. He's using a SWAG to compare his comparator findings with SAAMI spec.
Yea I was starting to get that he didn't seem to be using any reference other than his brass and comparator.
I'm under the impression the numbers from any given comparator are just numbers basically... And unless you check them against a known quantity they are just a reference...

So would the correct thing to do here be use his comparator to test a "go" gauge and call that "0", and then reference the brass comes out or goes in at +/- .00x
He states the neck is "loose" @ .311-.314" (whatever that means SAAMI is .310-.3108") and over his goal of .388 + .020". There is zero sense made in this portion of his OP word salad. Best I can tell, he would like the neck to be tighter by a few thousandths.
Glad I'm not the only one that couldn't understand the .388+.020 thing...

The backed out primers tell the whole story. There's only two ways that happens and one of them is what I described.
Makes sense. Not enough pressure to expand the brass back to the bolt face, but the primer still pushes back.

No fear of a case head separation at least... Lol
I also do not lubricate the shoulders. Ring around the top half of the case neck, ring on point of the shoulder, and a final ring on the .200" line - done. This is to specifically control this dimension, and because I do not think it is needed.
Mind expanding the explanation a bit here for me as well? Am I taking it that you apply lubricant in three rings along the case before sizing operations?.... I'm not familiar with such a methodology

I feel like I'm missing something very obvious but the light bulb is just not coming on here
 
Mind expanding the explanation a bit here for me as well? Am I taking it that you apply lubricant in three rings along the case before sizing operations?.... I'm not familiar with such a methodology

I feel like I'm missing something very obvious but the light bulb is just not coming on here
That's it, you've got the picture.

I use my fingertips to lube half the neck, the outside of the shoulder about 3/8" down the body, and finally another 3/8" ring around the .200" line. I use wax so this is super easy. I'm not taping anything off, just using my thumb, index, and middle fingers twisting the cases with my left hand.
 
You have two choices. You can seat the bullets long enough to jam into the rifling and hold the brass firmly against the bolt face or you can lightly lube the case before firing.
Don't lube your cases, this is bad juju.

Lubing cases will tend to push the case head back, leading to thinning of the web.
Seating long into the lands will expand the shoulder out and forward.