HOW ARE YOU GUYS GETTING SINGLE DIGIT ES????

[plinkin]

Hornady brass & CCI 200 primer.

Nice thanks

 

[Jefe's Dope]

ES/SD numbers based upon 3-5 rounds are not statistically accurate nor significant. They may give you an indication of the consistency of a load, and then they may just be showing you how random chance can affect low sampling quantities. This has been discussed before here and statisticians and others who know statistical sampling know it too. Point is that those three shots or five shots may or may not reflect the reality of your load. When someone says they have single digit ES/SD numbers and then shows me a picture of three or five shots, I find it interesting but not significant or convincing.

I agree but those numbers are very impressive none the less.

 

[lash]

Hornady brass & CCI 200 primer.

I agree completely. I’m also not interested in shooting 100 rounds over a chronograph just to gather a number. I’d rather just shoot and gather dope personally but I’m just a new shooter who doesn’t know his *** from a hole in the wall.

I also do not shoot high numbers to chase low statistical data, so not being judgementel. I just wanted to shed some light onto why it can seem that people have such low ES/SD numbers when they are basing that number on a low sample quantity. It partially answers the OPs question.

Like you, I find a load that shoots well and seems to have consistent velocities and I go out and shoot. I'm not chasing any records and don't shoot bench rest, so I have that ability.

 

[lash]

I agree but those numbers are very impressive none the less.

Absolutely agree.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I just leave the crono on and shoot dont cost anything.
No special tricks but I Always clean the necks.

6.5 Creed Hornady brass, H4550 CCI BR2

Stats - Average 2747.78
Stats - Highest 2760.96
Stats - Lowest 2729.88
Stats - Ext. Spread 31.08
Stats - Std. Dev 8.02

Shot ID V0
1 2745
2 2757
3 2751
4 2737
5 2749
6 2755
7 2749
8 2746
9 2751
10 2738
11 2757
12 2761
13 2751
14 2758
15 2736
16 2751
17 2747
18 2745
19 2742
20 2752
21 2751
22 2733
23 2754
24 2740
25 2761
26 2749
27 2747
28 2755
29 2737
30 2730
31 2747


Different Rifle
6.5 Creed Lapua Brass CCI450
If First round fouler was removed sd would be 8.299


Stats - Average 2768.1
Stats - Highest 2794.01
Stats - Lowest 2725.86
Stats - Ext. Spread 68.15
Stats - Std. Dev 10.36

Shot ID V0
1 2726
2 2779
3 2768
4 2768
5 2778
6 2760
7 2768
8 2778
9 2773
10 2775
11 2764
12 2764
13 2762
14 2766
15 2769
16 2770
17 2767
18 2769
19 2759
20 2777
21 2768
22 2771
23 2768
24 2784
25 2779
26 2763
27 2777
28 2761
29 2762
30 2756
31 2760
32 2768
33 2761
34 2787
35 2758
36 2772
37 2777
38 2794
39 2773
40 2765
41 2763
42 2759
43 2768
44 2776
45 2763
46 2759

 

[lash]

Nice example of reality there! Those are statistically significant data sets.

Notice that in your first string of 30, shots 7-8-9 and shots 17-18-19, if taken out by themselves would be three shot strings with single digit ES numbers. There are other examples within your data set like that also. That illustrates my point very well.

 

[47guy]

How about a14FPS ES and a 4.2 SD over 24 rounds...

 

[47guy]

@plinkin

6.5x47...curtius custom axiom...24" hawk hill 1/8 rem varmint...which i dont care for going back to heavy palma after this barrel
JGS reamer... .293 straight neck .100 freebore
charges weighed to +or- 1 kernel on an A&D FX120i
trimmed with a giraud
full length sized/seat with whidden dies
forester coax press
primers seated with the K&M tool with the gauge
the only case prep is primer pockets uniformed with the 21st century tool
annealeez...anneal every 2nd firing
lapua brass 300 pieces per barrel

stainless tumble every time...250-300 cases at a time...1 table spoon yellow ajax 1/4 teaspoon lemi shine cold water tumble 1 hour
FL size every time...shoulder stays the same or bumped ,001... .002 neck tension....12;1 100% Isopropyl alcohol lanolin for lube
trim every time
run the primer pocket tool in the pocket every time by hand
seat primers plus .005
i seat .020 off the lands and do not chase seating depth unless im really having issues which is rare and normally a different primer(i only use 1st fed205Ms or 2nd CCI450s)or a powder adjustment will fix the issue

now with all the said i check my velocity quite often because its simple with an MPA chassis and the RAT adapter...with my last 6CM barrel and the last 6.5x47 every time i checked my speeds i was 15FPS or under with 25 rounds fired.

now like LASH says the low 3-5 shot ESs-SDs look good and are impressive but the numbers are not going to be like that every time out...yesterday i had a 60FPS ES...i shot my first 12 rounds of a match over the magneto speed...round 1 cold clean bore 2902(normally 2935-2940)...round 12 2962...which i woundnt mind from cold clean to fouled bore BUT i had a 2930 a 2935 in the mix and round 11 was 2928....these should all be 2940-2960.

i had several go just under or just over the rabbit at 611yds and 1 go off the nose of the coyote in a 1-3mph from 7oclock wind...so my first change will be switching to a CCI450 which im pretty sure will fix the high ESs.
like others have said whats most important is whats going on at the target...if i were shooting bigger targets i wouldnt worry about the numbers so much but the smaller the target the more those numbers matter.

 

[Fig]

If you are going to be competitive with people you will never meet, you have to divide your results by 2. You also have to shoot your 600 yard groups at 200 yards, and use terms like "all day long"....and "if I do my part".

That’s some really good advice about what it takes to win. Have you thought about holding a formal clinic or maybe a webinar?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

That’s some really good advice about what it takes to win. Have you thought about holding a formal clinic or maybe a webinar?

I was talking to TiborasaurusRex about it just yesterday.

 

[Fig]

 

[lash]

How about a14FPS ES and a 4.2 SD over 24 rounds...

Now THAT'S impressive.

 

[plinkin]

@plinkin

6.5x47...curtius custom axiom...24" hawk hill 1/8 rem varmint...which i dont care for going back to heavy palma after this barrel
JGS reamer... .293 straight neck .100 freebore
charges weighed to +or- 1 kernel on an A&D FX120i
trimmed with a giraud
full length sized/seat with whidden dies
forester coax press
primers seated with the K&M tool with the gauge
the only case prep is primer pockets uniformed with the 21st century tool
annealeez...anneal every 2nd firing
lapua brass 300 pieces per barrel

stainless tumble every time...250-300 cases at a time...1 table spoon yellow ajax 1/4 teaspoon lemi shine cold water tumble 1 hour
FL size every time...shoulder stays the same or bumped ,001... .002 neck tension....12;1 100% Isopropyl alcohol lanolin for lube
trim every time
run the primer pocket tool in the pocket every time by hand
seat primers plus .005
i seat .020 off the lands and do not chase seating depth unless im really having issues which is rare and normally a different primer(i only use 1st fed205Ms or 2nd CCI450s)or a powder adjustment will fix the issue

now with all the said i check my velocity quite often because its simple with an MPA chassis and the RAT adapter...with my last 6CM barrel and the last 6.5x47 every time i checked my speeds i was 15FPS or under with 25 rounds fired.

now like LASH says the low 3-5 shot ESs-SDs look good and are impressive but the numbers are not going to be like that every time out...yesterday i had a 60FPS ES...i shot my first 12 rounds of a match over the magneto speed...round 1 cold clean bore 2902(normally 2935-2940)...round 12 2962...which i woundnt mind from cold clean to fouled bore BUT i had a 2930 a 2935 in the mix and round 11 was 2928....these should all be 2940-2960.

i had several go just under or just over the rabbit at 611yds and 1 go off the nose of the coyote in a 1-3mph from 7oclock wind...so my first change will be switching to a CCI450 which im pretty sure will fix the high ESs.
like others have said whats most important is whats going on at the target...if i were shooting bigger targets i wouldnt worry about the numbers so much but the smaller the target the more those numbers matter.

Excellent thank you for the info, I also use a stainless steel rotary tumbler, anneal every firing with a annealeez, full-length resize with Redding bushing full-length resizer with expander ball I like using the expander ball in case the mouth gets banged up during cleaning or annealing. With that being said have you experienced any sticky bullet seating or do you put anything on the inside of the necks before seating the bullets, I have read that super clean necks that you get from rotary stainless tumbling can lead to sticky bullet seating or bullets sticking in cases possibly from dissimilar metal or galvanic corrosion. I don't experience the sticky bullet seating and I would also think that the bullet adhesion to the neck what happened over a greater length of time I have never had a set of bullets that I've made up sit for more than a week. Also what primer pocket tool are you talking about, and what's your powder charge like compressed and do you settle the powder ? Curious what your thoughts are, thank you. Just an fyi I'm reloading 308, using lapua brass, 175 smk, cci br2, 4064
Powder.

 

[plinkin]

@47guy

Also did you experience a big difference in the small rifle primers vs large?

 

[47guy]

no sticky seating issues...i played with different soaps times and water temps and found what i posted works best for me...i think the timing is most important with stainless tumbling...if im tumbling less than 250 cases i adjust the times accordingly...200 cases i tumble 45-50mins but i never run less than 200...if the insides of the necks do not have a tan color or are shiny gold they are being tumbled to long.

i use a full length die and always run the expander bushings did nothing but cause me issues...i loaded 10 rounds once and let them sit for a month and shot them over the magneto speed they were the same(or close enough)to fresh ammo.

21st century micro adjustable primer pocket uniforming tool.

i dont run compressed loads because they F with seating depth and produce inconsistent numbers but i do try to chose powders that will full the case to 90-98% with the bullets i plan to shoot and my reamer specs....i also have a 4" drop tube funnel just in case but i dont use it much.

ive never owned a 308 so dont know a lot about loading for one.

small VS large primers...the smalls seem to be a little more consistent but also my FPS are 10-20FPS slower when its cold...for instance 25deg my current load is 2940ish at 85 its 2960ish....i havent shot the 47 long enough to really give you hard data but thats what ive noticed to this point and i think using CCI450s when its cooler may fix that as well.

 

[47guy]

Now THAT'S impressive.

until yesterday when i shot a 23 at a match i should of won LOL...i missed 3 coyotes at 600yds...thats like missing a barn your shooting at from inside.

 

[lash]

Heh, heh. I've been there before. Are you sure it was the rifle loads and not the load of stuff between the ears? Either way, sometimes the difference between good and great is just chance, no matter how well prepared, practiced or polished everything is.

Would 14fps difference have made a difference between a hit and a miss on a coyote at 600? Probably not.

 

[47guy]

i was shooting and feeling good but ill take the blame for at least 3 of my miss...2 bad wind calls and one corky the retard trigger jerk...pulled that one clear off the planet lol.

no a 14FPS spread would not matter enough at any distance but that was my first barrel...yesterday was with a new(200 rounds through it)barrel my ES was 60FPS so yes 60FPS would matter at 600 yds just enough to put me over or under a rabbit...going to shoot a 22 match today so ill be back later with all new and improved excuses.

 

[plinkin]

@47guy

Do you anneal before or after cleaning and if after do you do anything to the inside of the neck?

 

[47guy]

i anneal
tumble
size...6mm soft nylon brush with graphite in the neck every 10-15 cases...when the feel of the expander pulling outta the neck feels different
trim and clean primer pockets same time
run a nylon brush in the neck on a layman prep center to remove any brass chips from trimming...ready to load

 

[plinkin]

i anneal
tumble
size...6mm soft nylon brush with graphite in the neck every 10-15 cases...when the feel of the expander pulling outta the neck feels different
trim and clean primer pockets same time
run a nylon brush in the neck on a layman prep center to remove any brass chips from trimming...ready to load

Thank you, lol I know I'm asking alot, is the whidden fl sixer custom honed to your chamber?

 

[47guy]

no problem...

no but im going to call john and send in some fired brass this week and have one made now that ive found the caliber im going to stick with...but then ive had great luck with the off the shelf whidden dies...what i really need to do is order a vudoo in an MPA comp chassis.

 

[plinkin]

no problem...

no but im going to call john and send in some fired brass this week and have one made now that ive found the caliber im going to stick with...but then ive had great luck with the off the shelf whidden dies...what i really need to do is order a vudoo in an MPA comp chassis.

Thank you, I'm definitely going with the 47 lapua, it's been nice to get first hand knowledge, I'm in the stage were I'm second guessing my self and wondering if it's me, the rifle, or the ammo lol.

 

[47guy]

Don’t ever take the blame when there’s a hundred other things to blame....just kidding!

Seriously though you need to have 100% faith in your equipment or your going to have a tough go.

I know when I’m the problem and I know when my equipment or my loads are the problem and I’ll tell you it’s me 95% of the time.

I know a couple of local guys that were pretty good shots mind fuck their selfs right out of shooting because it was always something or someone else’s fault when the wheels fell off...man up take the blame and move on...learn your equipment inside and out so you know when it’s you or your equipment.

 

[kthomas]

This is how you do it:

1. Shoot 3 rounds through chronograph.
2. Check and see if you have really low SD/ES
3. You probably won't, so either keep shooting 3 rounds groups until you do, or if you are running out of rounds, selectively delete individual shots from your string to get you to where you need to be.
4. Post everywhere on social media a picture of your chronograph display. Don't forget to put the obligatory "still not ready to shoot a match, but getting close" comment

I laugh when I see a lot of these 3-5 round chronograph pictures posted all over Facebook and Instagram. The Rifle Snobs group is horrible for this. Same people are never ready for a match.

I aim to get ES below 20 fps. When it's around 15-20 fps, it's pretty damn good IMO. If you aim for single digits ES, you will be chasing your tail and spending a lot more time at the reloading bench then the range.

Good quality components are of course one part to success, but also finding the velocity node that your barrel likes is a big part of it. You can tighten your ES by more than half once you get in your velocity node.

Some cartridges are easier to tune then others. The 6BR family, as well as the 6.5x47, are two examples that come to mind right away for being notoriously easy to tune.

In all reality, some people are shooting factory ammo with 50-60 fps ES's and still getting on the podium at PRS and NRL matches.

 

[kthomas]

There will also be environmental conditions that are out of your control and play with your ES and SD.

I went to the range on two different days, shooting the exact same ammo that was loaded up on the same day. On Day one, the ammo had an ES of ~15 for (this is over 20+ shots). Day 2, the ammo had an ES of ~30, double of what it was before. Only difference is that there was a 20° temp difference.

Your single digit ES ammo may only be single digit on select days.

Chasing the almighty single digit ES may be a good way to test your sanity.

 

[plinkin]

The still not ready to shoot a match comment is hilarious

 

[47guy]

This is how you do it:

1. Shoot 3 rounds through chronograph.
2. Check and see if you have really low SD/ES
3. You probably won't, so either keep shooting 3 rounds groups until you do, or if you are running out of rounds, selectively delete individual shots from your string to get you to where you need to be.
4. Post everywhere on social media a picture of your chronograph display. Don't forget to put the obligatory "still not ready to shoot a match, but getting close" comment

we should hook up some time and shoot a few 3 round groups over the chrony...maybe a couple 5 rounders and cherry pick some good ones LOL!!

 

[TBagAMouseTrap]

The guy who really helped me along when I first starting shooting told me.. “Comparing groups is just another dick measuring contest.” I use that philosophy a lot with other areas of the shooting realm. Social media and comparing ammo sd’ are included.

 

[lash]

My favorite dick measuring contest, well, beyond the real thing of course, is shooting one on one at the same time at the same COF under time. I get more from that than many other things that I do at the range.

 

[kthomas]

Frank posted a link to this thread on Facebook, and now all the Facebook warriors are posting pictures of their 3-5 round chronograph screens in the comments.

So predictable ?

 

[47guy]

LOL well i guess i need to join facebook...i could be the president of the SUPER LOW ES-SD club....youll need a 1 shot group with an SD of 0 to join though.

 

[Mordamer]

I have shot 5 shot strings that showed an ES of 2 and an SD of 1. When I shot that same load for 20 rounds I had an ES of 15 and an SD of 6. These guys posting 3 or 5 shot strings with single digits ES are probably the same ones that shoot 1 or two groups in the life of their barrel that are below 1/4 MOA and then show those pictures to people for years claiming that's how their gun shoots.

 

[Fig]

That's WHY we have matches. Everything leads to/points to an actual contest of marksmanship. The ONLY time I feel like the time I spend hand loading and weighing each charge really comes into play are on stages with names like, "How Far?", "Not possible!", "Hail Mary", "The Coriolis Stage", "Rainbow", "Buffalo Shoot", etc.

 

[47guy]

I have shot 5 shot strings that showed an ES of 2 and an SD of 1. When I shot that same load for 20 rounds I had an ES of 15 and an SD of 6. These guys posting 3 or 5 shot strings with single digits ES are probably the same ones that shoot 1 or two groups in the life of their barrel that are below 1/4 MOA and then show those pictures to people for years claiming that's how their gun shoots.

ive had 1 barrel out of 24-25 that would shoot those kinda groups.

 

[kriswithak]

Precise neck tension is the most important in my opinion. Couple thing I had to learn was that a slick layer of carbon inside the neck is a good thing and SS tumbling can have some unintended consequences on your case necks if your not paying close attention.

Can you elaborate? I havwnt found any issues with my brass from ss tumbling. What have you seen?

 

[V-Ref]

There seem to be a lot more internet Chrono Match Champions than actual Match Champions?

 

[kriswithak]

Like everyone else described: consistency, attention to every detail, accuracy with powder (auto trickle), annealing, neck turning, quality powder and bullets.

This load was a surprise. 26” Bartlein 8 twist, 6.5 CM. Barrel by Short action customs. Found this nice node during load development. 2800 MV keeps this 147 ELD supersonic to a mile.

 

[Dirtshooter]

There will also be environmental conditions that are out of your control and play with your ES and SD.

I went to the range on two different days, shooting the exact same ammo that was loaded up on the same day. On Day one, the ammo had an ES of ~15 for (this is over 20+ shots). Day 2, the ammo had an ES of ~30, double of what it was before. Only difference is that there was a 20° temp difference.

Your single digit ES ammo may only be single digit on select days.

Chasing the almighty single digit ES may be a good way to test your sanity.

That is just a demonstration of how poor a measure of variability ES is and why you shouldn’t pay much attention to it. If you care about such things you should run a 20 plus shot string, and calculate a 99.9% confidence interval. It will be a much more reliable measure of the variability of your load’s velocity. It will also not be single digit, and probably not in the teens, either, which is probably why most people don’t do it. You also have to remember that the measurement lumps in the variability of your measuring device, which is not that much smaller than what you’re trying to measure.

 

[Dooby]

Can you elaborate? I havwnt found any issues with my brass from ss tumbling. What have you seen?

From what I've read, it could remove too much carbon which acts as a lubricant, thus messing with neck tension. Also with SS, it'll peen over the mouth. Not sure if this can possibly cause neck tension issues too...or scratch up the bearing surface on the bullet. I still SS but if the neck is trimmed I'll ultrasonic clean.

 

[icu812]

Can you elaborate? I havwnt found any issues with my brass from ss tumbling. What have you seen?

I could never keep my x47 case mouths from getting beat up. I tried several different ratios of pins and water and couldn't keep it from happening. It was bad enough I couldnt slide a bullet in and out of the case without some serious chamfering (before sizing just as a way to see how bad they were getting bent inward). I could make it work but it wasnt worth the hassle. I went back to a vibratory tumbler. Like mentioned already, that slick layer of carbon inside the neck is best left alone in my opinion. Maybe a pass with a nylon brush to smooth it out but it definetly is a good thing for seating bullets.