Could be, but that’s pretty hard to end up with brass that long after 2 firings.
- Thread starter DocRDS
- Start date
Yeah i've measured it consistently with 2 different calipers.
Brass is between 1.909 and 1.911
COAL has been 2.803 Max
TBH none of my bullets fall into fired cases (including 308s and 300 WM with appropriate bullets). The 308 at least go past the boat tail
Fired bras .296
Loaded Brass .290
New Brass .289
My apologies if i haven't answered everyones questions exactly, i have a day job and responding in my spare time.
Brass is between 1.909 and 1.911
COAL has been 2.803 Max
TBH none of my bullets fall into fired cases (including 308s and 300 WM with appropriate bullets). The 308 at least go past the boat tail
Fired bras .296
Loaded Brass .290
New Brass .289
My apologies if i haven't answered everyones questions exactly, i have a day job and responding in my spare time.
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He said the OAL was spot on on a pulled down round, and the rifle only has 100 rounds down the tube. So unless he started with used brass…
I shoot starline brass in my 6.5cm. I've shot that bullet a good bit too. A bullet should slide right into a fired case. How new is this gun?
Starline doesn't grown hardly at all in mine.
Let me clarify some terms:
By fall, I mean with gentle finger pressure does it slide freely. You may have to wiggle it gently to get the projectile started straight.
By fired, I mean fired and not resized.
.2969 is SAAMI standard. Loaded ammo of .290 (seems a bit small) should release fine, and once fired a projectile should slide easily inside that neck.
He said he’s only got 100 rounds on the rifle. +1 on Starline being tough.
I was referring to case length, not cartridge.
He just posted measurements btw
@ doc
1. Just to confirm on your case length. Your fired and unfired are both coming out under 1.920”?
2. You are saying bullets will not freely drop into a fired case?
yes. Bullets do not drop freely in a fired case. I even had a bunch of 300 WM and 308 I had deprimed and cleaned, same thing there.
the 6.5 case is not cleaned, but it has the (spent) primer in it. Only the boat tail goes in. I had a pulled bullet somewhere and the jacket had come off during pulling exposing some of the lead. I had to pull some 308s and they barely have any dmg at all, but they also sit right up past the boattail in a once-fired, non sized case (cleaned in this case).
and case length is well under 1.920--averaging right at 1.910.
Now I do not do neck turning, I am still a beginner so its
Deprime
Wet Tumble
Size
Wet Tumble
Powder
Bullet
Using Hornady Dies on 6.5 and 300WM.
My 308 is a redding die
All have expander balls. (non-bushing).
I just got mandrels last week to even out neck size cause I freaking hate those expander balls.
I ran this same load the week before in once fired brass-no issues, no missing primers, no ejector swipes. Brass is still sitting here. Bullet doesn't slide in those as well.
the 6.5 case is not cleaned, but it has the (spent) primer in it. Only the boat tail goes in. I had a pulled bullet somewhere and the jacket had come off during pulling exposing some of the lead. I had to pull some 308s and they barely have any dmg at all, but they also sit right up past the boattail in a once-fired, non sized case (cleaned in this case).
and case length is well under 1.920--averaging right at 1.910.
Now I do not do neck turning, I am still a beginner so its
Deprime
Wet Tumble
Size
Wet Tumble
Powder
Bullet
Using Hornady Dies on 6.5 and 300WM.
My 308 is a redding die
All have expander balls. (non-bushing).
I just got mandrels last week to even out neck size cause I freaking hate those expander balls.
I ran this same load the week before in once fired brass-no issues, no missing primers, no ejector swipes. Brass is still sitting here. Bullet doesn't slide in those as well.
I understand. I read his first post as referring to case length as OAL.
You should lube the inside of the case neck with graphite after wet tumbling. It sounds like you’re using extreme amounts of neck tension (.010”) and welding the bullets to the cases. What is the neck OD of a sized case prior to seating a bullet?
There are only a couple of reasons why a bullet won’t slide into a fired case. Most all have been covered here. It’s gotta be one of them.
@DocRDS
You should lube the inside of the case neck with graphite after wet tumbling. It sounds like you’re using extreme amounts of neck tension (.010”) and welding the bullets to the cases. What is the neck OD of a sized case prior to seating a bullet?
There are only a couple of reasons why a bullet won’t slide into a fired case. Most all have been covered here. It’s gotta be one of them.
Not always especially when you only have .006” clearance in the neck.
Again, no. Mine don’t. If you have a chamber with machine gun clearance then yes.
Well, I'm not really following that... You mean if the chamber is that tight at the neck?
So you have a chamber set for a particular brass then?
allright before this turns into a shit show (too late!) I popped off my barrel and did a "plunk" test.
Known Good ammo from last week protruded .260 from the chamber after a "plunk" drop (repeatable)
SHitty Bad Ammo from this week protrudes .325 from the chamber after a "plunk" drop (repeatable)
Clearly this ammo did not get sized properly. (Which I knew because I used the wrong comparator which told me a false reading, that then gave me fits, yada yada yada: TLDR Badly Sized Ammo.)
It doesn't feed well in either Creed I have so its clearly suspect. Before we rape each other further:
I fucked up.
I didn't catch it right away.
I shoulda stopped when I had feeding problems and just torn everything down.
Let's just let it die.
All I lost is 100 primers, 50 pieces of brass, and a public shaming. I got off easy.
I'm pissed off at myself for possibly fucking up my rifle, for not doing basic safety and for generally being an idiot and I am supposed to do this to fucking relax and now I'm stressed as hell.
Thank you to all who tried to help--its a PITA to diagnose over the internet. Lets be clear it was an ID-10-T error.
Known Good ammo from last week protruded .260 from the chamber after a "plunk" drop (repeatable)
SHitty Bad Ammo from this week protrudes .325 from the chamber after a "plunk" drop (repeatable)
Clearly this ammo did not get sized properly. (Which I knew because I used the wrong comparator which told me a false reading, that then gave me fits, yada yada yada: TLDR Badly Sized Ammo.)
It doesn't feed well in either Creed I have so its clearly suspect. Before we rape each other further:
I fucked up.
I didn't catch it right away.
I shoulda stopped when I had feeding problems and just torn everything down.
Let's just let it die.
All I lost is 100 primers, 50 pieces of brass, and a public shaming. I got off easy.
I'm pissed off at myself for possibly fucking up my rifle, for not doing basic safety and for generally being an idiot and I am supposed to do this to fucking relax and now I'm stressed as hell.
Thank you to all who tried to help--its a PITA to diagnose over the internet. Lets be clear it was an ID-10-T error.
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Pin gauges.
If the loaded round is .290” in diameter at the neck and a fired case is .296” then pretty much yes.
Some brass are thicker than others. Hornady is pretty thin with .006” clearance in a std chamber. Norma is thick, maybe .004” clearance. Depending on neck hardness the case mouth diameter post firing is going to be pretty tight. A fired case mouth will always be smaller in diameter than the rest of the neck. Don’t believe me? Fire a case a couple times and see.
But to answer your question, yes have a chamber made with enough clearance for your brass or all brass. I think at least .005”.
Fuuuuuuuuck
Almost as good as the time I screwed my SilencerCo Chimera-300 wrong on my 300 Win Mag ... and had to call a cease-fire while I walked 15 yards downrange to pull my destroyed suppressor out of the sand. Those are the lessons we learn ... FOREVER. Thanks for sharing.
On the sizing issue- how did it end up that different?
Are you one of those people who resets the die adjustment after every loading session? If so, stop doing that, for starters. If you’d set the die correctly for initial load development, and left it alone, headspace would have been spot on or just a hair long due to case hardening but not enough to cause an issue.
And the headspace measurement thing with the wrong bushing - that part only should matter if you’re trying to go by an absolute measurement. It should be a relative measurement, comparing fired brass from your rifle to the resized dimension. Remove primers from the fired brass for this measurement, but don’t size it.
If you’ve zeroed the calipers on the fired brass (measuring a few to find the maximum), then it doesn’t matter where on the shoulder you’re measuring as long as it’s not right at the corners; the entire shoulder gets bumped back the same amount.
On the bullet sliding into a fired case - that .290” dimension sounds like sized brass, not loaded brass. What is it with a bullet seated? It’ll vary a little so measure more than one round, and at different points on the neck.
If your dimensions of .296” fired and .290” loaded are actually correct, that’s .006” clearance and a bullet should drop in easily. If not then you’ve got pinched necks (long cases or fouled chamber) or you’re just dinging the case necks during extraction but that should be easy to see the flat spot.
Also, this is all fairly simple stuff, but I think you may be confusing some of the issues by using the wrong terminology. That makes it hard for everyone else to respond accurately.
Almost as good as the time I screwed my SilencerCo Chimera-300 wrong on my 300 Win Mag ... and had to call a cease-fire while I walked 15 yards downrange to pull my destroyed suppressor out of the sand. Those are the lessons we learn ... FOREVER. Thanks for sharing.
Launched a SilencerCo Specwar 762 to the end of my indoor range during a conjugal pre-stamp visit. Fortunately I got away with it minus a bit of paint missing where it hit the concrete and a minor enough baffle strike that I'm not going to send it back. I checked the target and the there was a pyramid shaped hole where the bullet went into paper, can you say tumble.
The cease fire and the walk of shame was by far the worst.
How did it come off if there wasn’t any damage? There must have been some damaged threads or something? Unless it wasn’t actually attached to the muzzle.
Wow I used to think I caused all my reloading screw ups, until I found out I can blame it all on Putin. I feel so much better already.
Your comments are not helpful at this point. We've had an extensive discussion, I did not set my die up right. Rather than a rather salty response where i can post lude comments under pictures with the measurements, we've already established I'm a dumbass. But a dumbass who knows how to use calipers and has so for many many MANY years.
And I checked it on 3 different sets.
Also every piece of brass I have every fired from every gun is obviously defective as NONE of them allow a round to just 'drop' in the case on fired brass (yes un-resized) brass. This includes 30-30, 30-06, 300 WIn Mag, 300 Sav, 308, 6.5, 223. They are all sitting here in my office.
Would you like me to try 22LR?
Or I have some magical quality that shrinks brass to longer accept a bullet freely once fired. Which includes factory brass. Cause I am mutha fucking talented.
No need to get snippy. My comments were intended to help you figure this out, since you don’t appear to have done so yet.
If bullets won’t slide into your fired brass, you should try to understand why. Is it just a little flat spot from ejection? No big deal. Is it because case necks are not releasing the bullet freely? That’s a big deal. It’s worth figuring out rather than just accepting that it’s a thing.
Same on the die setup. Some guys reset their dies every session. If that’s you, see comments above. If not, don’t be offended about it.
My comments on the headspace stuff were pointing out that something still doesn’t add up from what you said, unless you’re making the common mistake of treating headspace as an absolute measurement. Again, nothing to be offended over; 5 years ago most reloaders didn't seem to measure headspace at all, and even now a large percentage of them still do it wrong.
Admitting a mistake is good, but figuring out the cause and learning from it is better. Just repeating “I’m a dumbass” doesn’t get you any further at this point.
If your neck thickness is .014 and a fired case is .296 then you should have .268 ID on a fired case. Your bullet is .264 but won’t fit in .268.
At my age (mid 70's), I find I always have to be extra attentive to avoid Faux pas, but . . . the damn things still happen.
I'm old to and shoot alot,I find if you run to hot of a load 41.5 say of h4350 to fire for new brass is a waste of time I'm with bad eyes with no glasses so I check everything twice then again ladder testing! I want everything perfect so if need be ill ream a new chamber to hang my creed bullet out the case like a 7 mm mag I was a little machinist boy at 16 then after put my self through college and many degrees pursued. A career in education in Elizabeth nj teaching vocational machining I'm my experience your finesse and feel dictates my fit in a build even with custom made barrels the chamber can be to tight Evan for new brass in any dimension, burrs sharp angles lack their of can run havoc! I got go no go gage and use it but it's a not a finish tool it's a ball park parameters! If I got to rent a chamber gauge from Manson tools to finish clean the chamber to my comfortability then I stop shooting right away and get her dome! The manufacturer don't dictate what's perfect I do !
Attachments
I make up a dummy rd with no powder no primer set a bullet around 2.875 col est with the ñeck annealed and bullet waxed up I slowly try to rechamber said bullet with in chamber if it fits your your to big if not drop bullet down .010 at a shot till it closes ,don't force it cause bullet will stick in barrel and you'll need a push rod to dislodge it ! Keep records of bullet col and brand grainger
I have not done but wonder who can comment: pressing primers: what would happen if a small rifle anvil is used to press a large rifle primer? will the smaller diameter pressing on the large rifle primer ignite the sob?It takes quite a man to admit his mistakes. But you likely saved someone else form making the same. Thanks for that.
We also need pictures so we can really haze you.
If it don't fit don't force it,anything can occur but unlikely
If your neck thickness is .014 and a fired case is .296 then you should have .268 ID on a fired case. Your bullet is .264 but won’t fit in .268.
The case mouth ID is smaller than the rest of the neck, therefore the bullet won’t drop in.
Case mouth = .268
Bullet OD = .264
Bullet OD is smaller than case ID therefore bullet should fall in!
Measure the case. The case mouth diameter is smaller than the rest of the neck. The harder the neck, the smaller the case mouth diameter.
Apparently you don’t do much reloading.
A round won't drop in until there is significant clearance. The assumption is the neck is perfectly round as is the bullet. We did a demo last night and rounds don't fall in until there is 4 to 6 thou of clearance. It is dependant on chamber and brass. My Fired brass barely accepts a 0.262 expander (for me). Some of my 308s measured right at 308 dia while some got up to 316. Bullet fell in the 316 dia case. not the 308 case.
Its the difference between theory and experiment.
Its the difference between theory and experiment.
And it turns out my die is not sizing the case web area to fit a chamber guage.
I have a feeling you guys are dinging your case mouths (the biggest reason I don’t care for plunger ejectors), if you extract your cases pushing them so they extract straight, do you see the same thing?
I find small based dies are the only ones that fit chamber gauge consistently.
Keep at it you will figure it out.
Really? I thought if i hit it with a FL resize it would go back to spec. Now it is a Hornday gauge (known to be tight). WIth the all the crap that went down, I trying to do everything by the book and check. Its setting the 0.002 bump has givin me fits all over. You tube, articles, searches, etc--I always somehow screw that part up. Some days I hate firearms.
Ok no i don't but it sure doesn't help my OCD.
No it won’t go back to spec. It will go back to whatever the die is plus spring back. The bigger the chamber, the more spring back.
You have an AI, don’t you? That’s a .475” chamber and that’s why your cases are tight in the gauge.
#metoo
I loaded 300 rounds the other night and half of them were 0.01” shorter than I intended because I didn’t confirm BTO between lots of SMKs. Always easier to bump a bullet back that’s too long. Now I’ve got 150 rds of ammo that shoots ok at best
I loaded 300 rounds the other night and half of them were 0.01” shorter than I intended because I didn’t confirm BTO between lots of SMKs. Always easier to bump a bullet back that’s too long. Now I’ve got 150 rds of ammo that shoots ok at best
Uh, no. If the load is developed for a specific BTO measurement, then .010" can change that. COL is pretty meaningless in comparison, as long as the rounds aren't too long for the magazine.
Agree, didn't want to get into that discussion here though. I really don't measure COAL unless it's to confirm it will fit inside of magazines
