Rifle Scopes Is S&B really outdated trash?!?!

[Glassaholic]

Thank you! Someone else noticed that yellow/brown/vermillion colored tinted glass. That stuff looks terrible through my eyes.

Everyone sees things differently and has preference for what they see. I am the opposite when it comes to the “color” the glass has on the image, I do not like the bluish tint that much of the Japanese glass tends to have and prefer the neutral to warmer tint that European glass (or rather the way they manufacture the glass as there is no reason Japanese glass can’t be more neutral like March scopes or European can’t be more blue). Of course this is all personal preference, there is no right or wrong, you get what looks good to your eyes.

A good test of any scope is not during the day but during twilight hours when your eyes will struggle to pick up detail and micro contrast, this is where many “inferior” scopes begin to show their true colors - or lack thereof actually.

 

[TheHorta]

Ever since Barska bought them and they shifted production to China, S&B has really gone downhill.

 

[Huskydriver]

Ever since Barska bought them and they shifted production to China, S&B has really gone downhill.

Forget to take your centrum silver today pops?

 

[FuhQ]

Everyone sees things differently and has preference for what they see. I am the opposite when it comes to the “color” the glass has on the image, I do not like the bluish tint that much of the Japanese glass tends to have and prefer the neutral to warmer tint that European glass (or rather the way they manufacture the glass as there is no reason Japanese glass can’t be more neutral like March scopes or European can’t be more blue). Of course this is all personal preference, there is no right or wrong, you get what looks good to your eyes.

A good test of any scope is not during the day but during twilight hours when your eyes will struggle to pick up detail and micro contrast, this is where many “inferior” scopes begin to show their true colors - or lack thereof actually.

For my eyes, the best glass I've ever looked through was a Hensoldt...But I don't have $8,000 for a scope. To me, the next best lens coatings for my eyes are Zeiss and Kahles...They are as equally ambient as it gets...Whatever it looks like through my eyes, it looks like through their scopes. The glass doesn't brighten things up, or make things darker, they just accurately recreate what my eyes see at that moment. And I much prefer those neutral coatings, to the darker coatings like S&B uses, and the ultra-bright coatings of some other Jap brands.

 

[Glassaholic]

For my eyes, the best glass I've ever looked through was a Hensoldt...But I don't have $8,000 for a scope. To me, the next best lens coatings for my eyes are Zeiss and Kahles...They are as equally ambient as it gets...Whatever it looks like through my eyes, it looks like through their scopes. The glass doesn't brighten things up, or make things darker, they just accurately recreate what my eyes see at that moment. And I much prefer those neutral coatings, to the darker coatings like S&B uses, and the ultra-bright coatings of some other Jap brands.

Years ago I had a Zeiss FL that I thought was the ultimate, then I got a Premier and literally saw what I was missing. In low light the Zeiss had a bluish tint while the Premier was neutral - more like what you’re saying with representing what I’m actually seeing. Oddly enough my Schmidt’s have been very close to the same - to my eyes, TT/Minox ZP5/ZCO/March High Master/Schmidt and Kahles have all been so close as to not draw any distinct winners ( with regard to color rendition) - all these scopes perform at a very high level and are pleasing and accurate when I look through them.

 

[Near miss]

My opinion is also that 5-25 is not worth buying as new anymore, I could not believe that the thing was tunneling like crazy, from 5 to 5.8. I was a bit amazed when I realized this same design was still in use.

My 3 shooting mates I do comps with all have SB 5-25 and in lowlight or long range I still might be asked to help spot for them with my Cronus which always lets me have some fun at their expense. My eyes are probably the main reason for it I guess. However, the glass is great but not spectacular.

I had MR308 with 5-25 in loan for few months and I really do not see a good reason to buy one just because it is SB. If it suits your needs, go for it. But probably some newer scope does those things you want better and offers more functionalities.

I do hope they keep up in the game and improve on their design so that they will continue to be reputable company. Over here the "halo" of SB partly diminished when Steiner won some military deals.

My next upgrade will be the March 4.5-28x52 for sure, seems like a great (except in size) package.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Take the time to look at what's offered, then buy what suits you.
It really is that easy.

 

[Doctorwho1138]

I currently own a SB 5-25, NF 7-35, and a Vortex strike Eagle 5-25. The one that has the clearest picture in the shadows and twilight is the SB. Not surprising the SE is the poorest. In the past, I owned a Steiner Military 5-25 and looked through a Kahles 624i in direct comparison . Of those comparing side by side, the Steiner was better. I also preferred the SB over the Steiner but not by a lot. I don’t get the complaining about the low end tunneling because I never go that low for it to matter. The reticle isn’t even useable and I have never had to use anything less than 12 power. The SB has good clear bright glass. I don’t see it being “darker” or “brown” tint but it has a very neutral tint to my eyes. My biggest complaint with my SB is that the illuminated reticle is weak. However any of the scopes mentioned above will get me on target even in twilight conditions except the Vortex. It blows in picking out details in shadows and in low light situations. But I am not sensitive to CA unless it’s just bad.

Another thing I hate about SB is their warranty. When I bought mine it was 10 years. The new warranty is 2 years. I haven’t had to use it but I know stuff breaks just from use time to time and 2 years is nothing. A scope that costs what it does should have a minimum 10 years or longer.

In the end, everyone sees something different and what they like is different. So what you prefer in glass is just going to be different. As far as turrets go, all the high end scopes work well enough for me. I haven’t had much time with the Nightforce but they feel nice and on par with the SB. But there are individuals here that are very picky about how they want them to feel. I just want audible and tactile clicks. So I am not picky and they all pass for me (upper tier scopes).

 

[FuhQ]

I currently own a SB 5-25, NF 7-35, and a Vortex strike Eagle 5-25. The one that has the clearest picture in the shadows and twilight is the SB. Not surprising the SE is the poorest. In the past, I owned a Steiner Military 5-25 and looked through a Kahles 624i in direct comparison . Of those comparing side by side, the Steiner was better. I also preferred the SB over the Steiner but not by a lot. I don’t get the complaining about the low end tunneling because I never go that low for it to matter. The reticle isn’t even useable and I have never had to use anything less than 12 power. The SB has good clear bright glass. I don’t see it being “darker” or “brown” tint but it has a very neutral tint to my eyes. My biggest complaint with my SB is that the illuminated reticle is weak. However any of the scopes mentioned above will get me on target even in twilight conditions except the Vortex. It blows in picking out details in shadows and in low light situations. But I am not sensitive to CA unless it’s just bad.

Another thing I hate about SB is their warranty. When I bought mine it was 10 years. The new warranty is 2 years. I haven’t had to use it but I know stuff breaks just from use time to time and 2 years is nothing. A scope that costs what it does should have a minimum 10 years or longer.

In the end, everyone sees something different and what they like is different. So what you prefer in glass is just going to be different. As far as turrets go, all the high end scopes work well enough for me. I haven’t had much time with the Nightforce but they feel nice and on par with the SB. But there are individuals here that are very picky about how they want them to feel. I just want audible and tactile clicks. So I am not picky and they all pass for me (upper tier scopes).

A $4,000 scope has a 2 year warranty??? Wow... S&B just one-upped Swarovksi's customer service's arrogance.

 

[Doctorwho1138]

A $4,000 scope has a 2 year warranty??? Wow... S&B just one-upped Swarovksi's customer service's arrogance.

That’s what it says on their website. Personally I love their scopes and would buy a second for the right price but their warranty service period blows

 

[Huskydriver]

That’s what it says on their website. Personally I love their scopes and would buy a second for the right price but their warranty service period blows View attachment 7774513

The united States specific warrenty is longer I have talked with Jerry at the service center in Virginia before I will see if I can dig it up but I'm pretty sure it's 20 years in the US

 

[M77]

I would be more then happy to run a 5-25 pm2 in MSR, outdated that's still relevant today with manufacturers playing catch up...

 

[cjs88]

The united States specific warrenty is longer I have talked with Jerry at the service center in Virginia before I will see if I can dig it up but I'm pretty sure it's 20 years in the US

Dug it up for you because I spoke with him too after buying mine and having warranty concerns.

Per Jerry:

"Thirty years on hunting models with the first ten years having 100% coverage against manufacturer defects. The subsequent twenty years will still be covered against manufacturer defects and any parts found defective will be covered by Schmidt Bender and the customer will be responsible for labor costs. Misuse and abuse is not covered under warranty.

PM II models have two years for military and law enforcement and twenty years for civilains. The same 100% coverage as the hunting models is offered for the first ten years on PMII’s and labor costs for the subsequent ten."

So first 10, 100% covered, next 10-20 you pay labor only.

 

[deersniper]

 

[Huskydriver]

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Can't stand vortex glass with NF logos lol

 

[deersniper]

Can't stand vortex glass with NF logos lol

 

[HousePlant]

Just go to the competition with what you have (which is better than 70% of the people that'll be there, at least) and have fun.

 

[Huskydriver]

View attachment 7774674

 

[Alpine 338]

Schmidt and Bender Outdated? Maybe?

Let me use this as an example.

Toyota FJ40, FJ80, original Ford Bronco, etc. If they still made them today, there would be people lining up to buy them, even though they are considered outdated. Let that sink in, and then try to guess why.

 

[Rhed]

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This one was a good article from NighForce website. Though can’t seem to find the article no more. Just this posted now. That pretty much made me buy a ATACR after. Lol

 

[Huskydriver]

This one was a good article from NighForce website. Though can’t seem to find the article no more. Just this posted now. That pretty much made me buy a ATACR after. Lol
View attachment 7774800

 

[Krob95]

ZCO > NF > Bender


My eyes couldn’t stand that brown tinted glass had a 5-25 and 5-45

ZCO>bender>cheap plastic lenses> muddy water>Anything Vortex offers>NF.

I would never pay full price for a Schmidt. But 2300-2600? Absolutely. They're good scopes and will probably buy another eventually.

 

[deersniper]

 

[Krob95]

These are the things the fudds who bought a NF SHV would post lmao I expected better

 

[deersniper]

These are the things the fudds who bought a NF SHV would post lmao I expected better

Sounds like something a person who compromises would say


Life’s too short

 

[Krob95]

Sounds like something a person who compromises would say


Life’s too short

leave me and my Vortex Crossfire II 6-18x alone. It's good enough

 

[Huskydriver]

leave me and my Vortex Crossfire II 6-18x alone. It's good enough

View attachment 7774809

When your bipod is worth more than the scope......

 

[deersniper]

leave me and my Vortex Crossfire II 6-18x alone. It's good enough

View attachment 7774809

Karma is going to bite you in the ass for degrading that AI in such a heinous manner

 

[M4guru]

***Laughs in how shitty the NX8 2.5-20 is then cries because I paid money for one***

 

[Krob95]

#neverforget

 

[912173]

S&B reminds me of H&K with the way they focus primarily on global military and police sales. Civilian target shooters are an afterthought and they really don't seem too worried if you buy one or not. Accuracy International was the same way until recently. The pricing almost feels like "You're going to make it worth our time to sell to a hobbyist".

 

[Rob01]

Funny how people buy the NF "marketing" no questions asked. LOL It's the military dude! LOL

 

[adavis1138]

***Laughs in how shitty the NX8 2.5-20 is then cries because I paid money for one***View attachment 7774842

My 2.5-20 was the least impressive expensive scope I’ve ever purchased.

 

[HousePlant]

Toyota FJ40, FJ80, original Ford Bronco, etc. If they still made them today, there would be people lining up to buy them, even though they are considered outdated. Let that sink in, and then try to guess why.

I drive a Lexus LS430. Can I afford a new full size sedan? Sure. Is any other sedan worth having over this new or old? Well... maybe an old diesel Mercedes but other than that... nope. If Lexus made a brand new one with the only update being an updated stereo interface that supports Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, I'd buy it. Cream interior, 16" wheels, oddly placed center console buttons, flip out cupholders, and all the rest.

 

[Langford]

My 2.5-20 was the least impressive expensive scope I’ve ever purchased.

Funny, I consider my 2.5-20 the most impressive inexpensive scope that I own. At $1600, there’s nothing I’d rather have in its place.

 

[adavis1138]

Funny, I consider my 2.5-20 the most impressive inexpensive scope that I own. At $1600, there’s nothing I’d rather have in its place.

Hey, people see differently and have different needs. For me, the parallax and depth of field issues were unforgivable. I truly wish I’d have been able to enjoy it as on paper it seemed close to perfect for my use.

 

[mrmarklin]

Despite the warranty problems with the outdated/obsolete S&B scopes I will offer $100 for any working scope. PM me for where to send yours For the dough. I’ll gladly sacrifice for my friends at the Hide.

 

[ma smith]

My 2.5-20 was the least impressive expensive scope I’ve ever purchased.

Be careful what you call "expensive" or you might rouse the locals

For me, the parallax and depth of field issues were unforgivable.

A quick look through this optic side by side highlights its flaws pretty well vs nxs and atacr.

It remains to be seen if even ZCO can pull of a 2.6-16x.... and the pricing required to support it ... remains $tbd.

 

[Langford]

I guess I went into it expecting less, and was pleasantly surprised (with the nx8). I use it for coyotes and a little long range plinking on an AR, the magnification range is suited perfectly for quick up close shot, along with steel & paper at 700 yards so far. The fact that it shares the reticle with my atacr 7-35 makes it an ideal trainer. I’m going to move it to a 22lr dedicated trainer rifle soon and try a zc420 in its place. I’ll miss the size, weight and magnification range of the nx8, but I’ve had the itch for a ZCO for a while now.


I felt extremely underwhelmed with the Kahles 624i, 1k level glass in a 3k scope.

 

[918v]

View attachment 7774807

Not as impressive as the Arken torture test.

 

[M4guru]

S&B reminds me of H&K with the way they focus primarily on global military and police sales. Civilian target shooters are an afterthought and they really don't seem too worried if you buy one or not. Accuracy International was the same way until recently. The pricing almost feels like "You're going to make it worth our time to sell to a hobbyist".

Have you taken a gander at the 12,475,648 models of S&B hunting and target scopes?

 

[cjs88]

I don't understand the brown glass complaint with S&B. My PMII is crystal clear. I wonder if it is the cause of underlying conditions. Like are you people who are seeing brownish hues colorblind or have some other degenerative eye condition or maybe even have had lasik/prp? Would be interesting data points.

 

[deersniper]

Not as impressive as the Arken torture test.

Are you a Arlen shill or just blind ?

Those nigjtforce tests shot within the same group. That chicom special was walking all over the place

 

[918v]

Are you a Arlen shill or just blind ?

Those nigjtforce tests shot within the same group. That chicom special was walking all over the place

No stupid, I’m neither. The NF torture tests did not impress me. They didn’t abuse the scopes properly.

 

[918v]

I don't understand the brown glass complaint with S&B. My PMII is crystal clear. I wonder if it is the cause of underlying conditions. Like are you people who are seeing brownish hues colorblind or have some other degenerative eye condition or maybe even have had lasik/prp? Would be interesting data points.

They have a degenerate condition for sure.

 

[Baron23]

I don't understand the brown glass complaint with S&B. My PMII is crystal clear. I wonder if it is the cause of underlying conditions. Like are you people who are seeing brownish hues colorblind or have some other degenerative eye condition or maybe even have had lasik/prp? Would be interesting data points.

Cataracts…even just the beginning of one…are yellowush do perhaps some folks w them prefer glass w cooler color temp ( more blue) to balance out w-o knowing why.

Just speculation.

 

[JakeM]

This one was a good article from NighForce website. Though can’t seem to find the article no more. Just this posted now. That pretty much made me buy a ATACR after. Lol
View attachment 7774800

If he had been using a Schmidt he would have seen and killed the enemy before he could be shot at.

 

[JakeM]

S&B reminds me of H&K with the way they focus primarily on global military and police sales. Civilian target shooters are an afterthought and they really don't seem too worried if you buy one or not. Accuracy International was the same way until recently. The pricing almost feels like "You're going to make it worth our time to sell to a hobbyist".

Not everyone cares about what a few sponsored gamers think about their products.

 

[Doctorwho1138]

I don't understand the brown glass complaint with S&B. My PMII is crystal clear. I wonder if it is the cause of underlying conditions. Like are you people who are seeing brownish hues colorblind or have some other degenerative eye condition or maybe even have had lasik/prp? Would be interesting data points.

I don’t see it either. I don’t have a TT or a ZCO but optically my SB 5-25 is better than my NF ATACR. So much so I just bought another SB in the PX. The Nightforce isn’t going anywhere but when I look at my KYL target that sometimes I have shaded in the woods, it’s clearer through the SB. Having said that, the Nightforce appears to be a nice scope. I have only had it a month or two vs about 7 years with my SB. My first non cheap scope was a Nightforce NXS and I will say that scope lacked optically vs a Kahles and Steiner that I compared it to when I first got a Steiner Military 5-25 scope. Plus it was 2nd focal plane and at that time I was moving towards first focal plane

 

[FuhQ]

Cataracts…even just the beginning of one…are yellowush do perhaps some folks w them prefer glass w cooler color temp ( more blue) to balance out w-o knowing why.

Just speculation.

I'm 35 and have nothing wrong with my eyes, other than some image clarity degradation of sight picture in my right eye due to damage sustained from injury, when my eyes get strained...No cataracts. But every S&B scope I have looked through in the last 10+ years has had a yellow tint to it. Not a fan. Reminds me of looking through a 1980's Tasco...

Like I said, I've shot through Hensoldt's, and own Kahles & Zeiss scopes, and looked through Kowa spotters... I know what good glass looks like. But through my eyes, the S&B's look terrible. It's just my eyes I guess?