Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?
FIrst off (and no offense) you guys really need to learn how to use the "quote" feature and quote either a single sentence, paragraph, or idea instead of an entire debate. It's makes it too difficult to figure out who or what you're actually refuting/quoting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One rifle shooting a projectile at 2600 fps and another rifle shooting a projectile at 2550 fps is not a scenario we're discussing. The claim being made that DP425 is trying to refute, says that two <span style="font-weight: bold">equal*</span> rifles that each print the same average group size in MOA at <span style="font-style: italic">n</span> distance can (in the absence of environmental factors) print statistically different group sizes at a given multiple of <span style="font-style: italic">n</span>.</div></div>
That's not what I'm discussing either. I'm talking about one rifle and the variations that occur internally between shots that directly affect the round once it leaves the bore. If these variations did not exist, every round would crono the exact same speed and enter the same hole every single time (minus environmental and the shooter). The ballistics curve is only linear if every object entering it is identical in every way.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, it's entirely possible that one given rifle might fail to fully stabilize a projectile, or that a given muzzle velocity might lead to transsonic instability sooner than that of another load, but those are fundamentally attributable to the particular ammunition used, they don't tell us anything meaningful about the quality of the rifle itself. We're interested in the specific characteristics that distinguish two rifles apart from each other, and the claim that a "custom" rifle is somehow capable of beneficially modifying a ballistic trajectory <span style="font-weight: bold">after</span> the bullet has left the barrel (while the factory rifle is not) is simply irrational.</div></div>
I don't know where you're getting this from. The trajectory “is what it is” once the round leaves the bore. No arguement here. BUT that trajectory is NOT the same for every round fired unless they leave the bore at the <span style="text-decoration: underline">exact</span> same speed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're assuming a hypothesis, namely that some unknown characteristic about semi-auto rifles causes them to exhibit degraded accuracy between 101 and 800 yards. This hypothesis is entirely without any method by which such a change might be caused. Issues involving projectile stability aside (which can and are solved through barrel construction and tailoring loads), there's no physical reason why a bullet headed downrange with a given vector, spin, and velocity "knows" it was fired from a semi-auto rather than a boltgun.
I'll save you some time researching this 'hypothesis' and give you the answer: Most long range shooters suck. Most shooters suck in general.</div></div>
A gas gun loses gas pressure behind the projectile while its still in the bore and it does not lose the exact same amount of pressure every time you pull the trigger. Because of this, things like "linear" and "predictable" go out the window. A bolt gun loses no pressure behind the projectile. That's not a hypothesis.
I won’t comment on the sucking habits of long range shooters.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can also claim to have seen light exceed 299,792,458 meters per second in a vacuum, but without some means of explaining how such a thing can happen within the constraints of modern physics, one would be well advised to have <span style="font-style: italic">some</span> form of proof at hand.</div></div>
Crono your rifle and you'll have some of your proof. Going further, one day when I have range time to waste (rare) I’ll take my IR camera with me and show you the difference in group size obtained between a hot barrel/chamber, verses a cool barrel/chamber with a rifle with a lower end barrel. I’ll also show you just how hot a round can get merely from sitting in the chamber too long…a common occurrence in autos since the rifle chambers the round, not the shooter. You simply cannot quote “modern physics” and ignore heat and the effect is has on pressure, ignition, combustion, the barrel, and even the round.
Here’s a thought provoking question…do you believe that two identical metal objects, one at 250 degrees F, and one at ambient temperature, are the exact same shape and size?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No offense intended, and I wish you well, but all too often in the shooting world there are certain pseudo-mystical ideas that begin to crop up amongst individuals that involve the derangement of physics and/or common sense. Until and unless someone can explain how a bullet can change course in midflight, there's nothing here to debate.</div></div>
Thank you sir. I wish you well too. However I'll say again...I am not claiming that a bullet can change course mid flight. What I am stating to be a fact is that the projectiles trajectory is absolutely different every time you pull the trigger (assuming we're not talking about a $10K benchrest rig shooting handloads) and that difference is attributable to what happens inside the rifle after the primer is struck. Internal ballistics absolutely affects external ballistics and not necessarily in linear predictable fashion.
Either way I don’t see how any burden of proof falls in my lap. I’m not the one promoting the notion that an off-the-shelf rifle that prints “whatever” at 100 yards, can accomplish the same feat with the same level of consistency at 1000 yards. Likely no amount of debate, math equations, etc. could convince me otherwise.
I didn’t enter this thread because I have anything against Savage. To the contrary I like their rifles but there’s a very good reason that the top gun makers are not standing in line to obtain their barrels.
