Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

E

Extreme454

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Minuteman
Apr 11, 2010
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www.extrememotorsports.biz
#1
I'd say hardly... BUT!

They're gettin there.

I've taken about 7 months off from the forums and even from shooting all together, to come back and find some newly released rifles that are amazing.

For example:
Savage 10/110 FCP HS Precision in 338 Lapua and 300 win mag
xlg_110fcphsprecision.jpg


Savage 12 LRP, .260, 6.5 Creedmoor and 243
12lrp.png


and a few others.

I know this isn't news to some of you that are on the cutting edge, but I'm more intrigued with how these packages are affecting the custom rifle market.

Get the popcorn ready, this is gonna be a good one

Here's my point:

Lets face it, many box rifles shoot 1/4-1/2 moa out of the box, but most don't do it consistently, hence the need for custom barrels, actions, stocks, etc...
Other then 'consistent accuracy', ergonomics come in to play, which is sometimes personal preference but easy to say the standard McMillan A2-A5 and so on style stocks are widely preferred.

There have been, and there are now even more, Savage rifles, that are 'consistently accurate' out of the box. With an average price of $900, how does someone justify custom rifles in the $3000, $4000, heck, we all know there are kooks spending $10k on their sticks(hopefully they're not reading this, lol).

Some of these new Savages are coming with HS Precision stocks, heavy fluted barrels, muzzle brakes, accu-trigger, drop bottom metal, and they are real shooters, out of the box.

I know there are some reasons for customs that simply cant be compared to Savage's rifle, like bench shooting, or calibers not offered from Savage,etc. But for this point, lets stick with general usage for long range, maybe described as long range hunting, long range target shooting, and lets keep it inside 1500 yards, which is where the majority of us all hang out. I'm definitely not trying to compare against 30" barrels chambered in 300 Hulk, if ya catch my drift.

After I went through a few custom rifles, a RBros 7wsm, a TRG-42 338LM, AR30 338 LM, last year, I decided to build a .260.
I started off with a Savage 10 Predator Hunter Max 1, bolted on a Choate Tactical stock, and used boxed Cor-Bon box ammo, and immediately shot .25"-.37" groups, consistently at 100 yards. This was followed up with first round hits at 600, 850, and 925 yards. I ended up selling the rifle, cuz I'm a kook, and the new owner is more the thrilled with its 'consistent accuracy'.

I'm now fixin to get another box stock Savage and show all my shooting partners with their $4000 custom rifles, that you don't need a custom rifle to be 'consistently accurate'.

Ok, bring it on. I wanna hear what everyone thinks. :)
 
#3
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extreme454</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm now fixin to get another box stock Savage and show all my shooting partners with their $4000 custom rifles, that you don't need a custom rifle to be 'consistently accurate'.
</div></div>

This is how the world works. For all but a select few, the problem is the user before it is the equipment.

I have a 2600 pound, 400hp car that was designed from the ground up to perform. I get passed by powerless POS's all the damn time. I'm just not as good a driver as they are.

$800-1000 buys you a great rifle.
$1000-1500 buys you a great scope.
Above and beyond that point, the bang for buck margin decreases.
 
#4
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extreme454</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm now fixin to get another box stock Savage and show all my shooting partners with their $4000 custom rifles, that you don't need a custom rifle to be 'consistently accurate'.
</div></div>

This is how the world works. For all but a select few, the problem is the user before it is the equipment.

I have a 2600 pound, 400hp car that was designed from the ground up to perform. I get passed by powerless POS's all the damn time. I'm just not as good a driver as they are.

$800-1000 buys you a great rifle.
$1000-1500 buys you a great scope.
Above and beyond that point, the bang for buck margin decreases. </div></div>

Well said, bang for the buck is truly what its all about. I've had laser shooting rifles, but having $6500 tied up in rifle, optics, and accessories, kinda took the fun out of it for me.
 
#5
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

You are abslolutely correct that "this is gonna be a good one".
Personally, I think the competition will be great for both custom and factory makers.

I too have gone the custom route and lost a lot of money when I sold it. The reason I sold it? I bought a factory rifle for my Dad that outshot my high dollar custom gun hands down, and it does it "consistantly". His isn't a Savage, but it's about at the same price point. The glass he has on it is worth about four times used, than what I paid for the rifle new.

I'm also looking at buying a Savage. It will be my first one ever. I've just never liked the way they look, or the way they feel, but I'm getting older now and I suppose more practical. I haven't had big exhaust or a lift kit under a pickup for about the last 15 years. (What was the purpose of that anyway? It was too loud and road like crap!)

I don't think Savage or any other manufacturer will really take away from the custom market. If anything it will make some of the better custom makers step up their game just to stay that much more ahead. The margin will be small by many people standards, but there are those of us that know the difference between a rifle that shoots a 5/8" group, a 1/2", group, a 1/4" and then the magical bug hole is a lot of money to start with. (Then comes all the practice, ammo, perfect atmospherics, etc.).

It's like many other "hobbies". Take racing motorcycles, cars, snowmobiles, boats, etc., for an example. If you want the biggest, fastest, lightest, and bestest, you are ALWAYS going to have to pay for it to be custom built, (or build it yourself). I don't believe you will ever be able to just go buy it off the shelf from a big manufacturer.

Then there will always be those with more money than sense. I think you called them "kooks", lol. Many of those "kooks" are the folks that believe they can just buy that bug hole group. That being said, some "kooks" CAN and DO shoot that well though due to the same dedication and focus that has put them in the financial position to be able to afford such a dream rifle.
 
#6
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

I'm just absolutely the guys at GAP are all thinking the same thing.......NOT!!!

I look at this in a totally different light. Savage is putting out decent rifles in desirable configurations that allow those who just can't go the extra mile on a custom to get started in the game. Do these rifles have the true accuracy (consistently) and smoothness of a custom? Absolutely not. If you take a hundred customs and a hundred Savage rifles and compare them head to head I would be terribly surprised if the overall quality and accuracy did not lie heavily on the side of customs.
I am not bashing Savage here either. I have had a couple and they are damn nice factory guns. IMHO, much better than current offerings from Remington.
 
#8
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

I just ordered a Savage LRP in 6.5 CM after shooting one and seeing just how nice they are. Imho they are some of the best bang for the buck.
There doesn't seem to be whole lot to do to it once I get it. It seems to have a nice stock, and already shoots out to 1000?
That being said I still have my eye on R700 308 5R and I just got done building a R700 223 which shoots .5. If I do my part?
 
#9
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Saying a savage will effect the custom gun market is like saying a corvette will effect the ferrari market.
 
#10
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying a savage will effect the custom gun market is like saying a <span style="font-weight: bold">camaro</span> will effect the ferrari market.</div></div>

fixed it for you
 
#11
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying a savage will effect the custom gun market is like saying a <span style="font-weight: bold">camaro</span> will effect the ferrari market.</div></div>

fixed it for you </div></div>

On the money brother!!!
LOL
 
#12
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

It takes that last 5% to be competitive, and that last five percent is 95% of the
cost. Savage is doing a great job for us but has little to do with the custom rifle
market.
 
#13
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Case in point: I have a GREAT-shooting Savage, and I love it. Nonetheless, I'm also building a custom rifle. Why? Because it will be configured *just* how I want in terms of barrel contour, length, chambering/throating and of course fit/finish.

I am yet to see a stock Savage with a good finish on the barrel and action. Surface finish is fine, but black oxide is a LAME treatment with zero scratch resistance and almost zero corrosion resistance..
 
#15
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Case in point: I have a GREAT-shooting Savage, and I love it. Nonetheless, I'm also building a custom rifle. Why? Because it will be configured *just* how I want in terms of barrel contour, length, chambering/throating and of course fit/finish.

I am yet to see a stock Savage with a good finish on the barrel and action. Surface finish is fine, but black oxide is a LAME treatment with zero scratch resistance and almost zero corrosion resistance.. </div></div>

I get all that, and agree, and as much as I like Savage's, they lack in quality finish. But, performance and accuracy far out weighs cosmetics for me.

I'd really like to hear from someone that has more experience then me, and has been back n forth between custom rifles and Savage, with real world long range experience and results.

I've got some experience, but not enough to draw a line in the sand. We've all got opinions, but, heck, I've already proven some opinions wrong with my lil $850 Savage .260.

This thread needs more controversy. You guys are slippin! I mean, heck, this thread is already an hour old, lol.
 
#16
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

A long time ago an old gunsmith told me when looking of a high $ custom in his shop, "save your money on the custom gun. Buy one that shoots better than you(most do for most of us) Spend the extra money your would have put in the custom costs on GOOD ammo. When you wear out your first barrel and you're able to call all you shots and are out shooting the gun come back and talk what you want.

I found this to be good advice for me and the other shooters who have come to me for advice.

The difference between a $1000.00 Savage and a $3000.00 custom is a WHOLE lot of ammo!! We all know you only get better by shooting more.

My 2 cents
 
#17
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

The only problem that I have noticed with custom gunsmiths is how bloody long it takes.Savage wishes it had so many waiting.
 
#18
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

So if a off the shelf savage 260 shoots a 5 shot bugbole group at 100yds and maintains accuracy out to whatever your desired distance is, it's not not as accurate as a "custom" that shoots the same bugbole? If this is what any of your are eluding to, please explain. Accuracy is accuracy, it is or it isnt. If the Factory gun shoots "X" MOA and the custom shoots "X" MOA......in terms of accuracy, where is the custom better? I realize alot of people get sensitive when you start talking about a $850 factory rifle shooting as good as their $5000 custom, but if the proof is on the target, how the hell can you dispute it?

Now, I am not saying that savage even comes close to craftsmanship and attention to detail that you get with a custom rifle. And I realize to some, its not all just about the function and accuracy, they want the rifle to look "sexy" sitting on their dinning room table or on their fire place. No, you can't buy that off the shelf with savage.

This has been debated time and time again with most agreeing to disagree. I'm not on either side here as I own 6 customs and 1 lil ole savage .223. I just don't see how people can turn a blind eye to the accuracy that savage produces that is as good/equal to any custom.....a bug hole is a bug hole be it fired from a $850 rifle or $5000.

I have absolutey no "need" for another rifle, but I'm tempted to buy that Mod 10 LRP 260 just to compare it to some of mine and others at some of the local shoots. I'd shoot off the shelf ammo in it against my handloads. I'm pretty sure in the end, it's perform just as well as the customs I own in terms of accuracy and reliability.

**** That 5% edge that was said that you get from a custom, well that's only a factor if you can shoot that 5% gap from 95% to 100% and I'd your that good, then you should be somewhat known and have some wood on the wall and trophies in the case. If this is the case with you (the 100% shooter) then yes, you made certainly need the custom in order to utilize 100% of the skill you posses.
 
#19
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

It is the difference between getting just what you want vs something that is mass produced and close to what you want. What you can afford determines the rest.
 
#21
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

No, Savage isn't going to kill the custom market. There are a ton of different manufacturers out there, and each has their own pro's and con's to every rifle.

I shoot nothing but Savage for centerfire rifles, but that is my choice. I definately love the rifles, but it has ALOT to do with what funds are available to do different things. Would I like to have a custom specifically built to my wishes and wants? Absolutely YES!! ... Is it going to happen due to my finances?? Absolutely NOT!!

I can get to exactly where I want to be with a Savage, and I can do it cost effectively. I can do all the work myself, except for the machining work. I love Savage from both the accuracy standpoint, and doing all my own gunsmithing standpoint. So no, there will be no hurtin goin on to the market based on Savage's price points, or accuracy points, right out of the box, or right out of the gunsmith's shop.

DK
 
#22
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Long time lurker here. I don't post much, but I do shoot a lot. Five years ago I wouldn't of touched a Savage with a 10 foot pole. My brother is left handed and he buys Savage bolt guns because of availability for left handers. He has me dope loads and I have been very impressed with the accuracy of his rifles.

I now own several Savage rifles and they shoot very well. I recently bought a Savage Max 1 Predator in 6.5-284 and it shoots in the .3's-.4's. I bought a second Max 1 in the same caliber so I would have a second rifle to shoot while the first one cools during long sessions in p-dog towns. The second rifle had some chamber issues and the accuracy was poor. Savage had to re-barrel the rifle because of an "out of spec" chamber. I have never taken delivery of a custom gun that that kind of an issue.

My brother has a Weather Warrior in 7mm-08 that shoots lights out. I ordered one for myself and when it arrived the Accustock was pressing against the front of the barrel. Yeah, the fix was simple and Savage will replace the stock. I guess my point is a Savage is still a factory rifle and the quality/accuracy can be hit or miss. By contrast, all of my custom builds met my expectations upon delivery. No hoping or guess work involved.
 
#23
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I said corvette because the corvette guys really believe in their mind they are as good. </div></div>

Long live the ZR-1!!

grin.gif
 
#24
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if a off the shelf savage 260 shoots a 5 shot bugbole group at 100yds and maintains accuracy out to whatever your desired distance is, it's not not as accurate as a "custom" that shoots the same bugbole? If this is what any of your are eluding to, please explain. Accuracy is accuracy, it is or it isnt. If the Factory gun shoots "X" MOA and the custom shoots "X" MOA......in terms of accuracy, where is the custom better? I realize alot of people get sensitive when you start talking about a $850 factory rifle shooting as good as their $5000 custom, but if the proof is on the target, how the hell can you dispute it?

Now, I am not saying that savage even comes close to craftsmanship and attention to detail that you get with a custom rifle. And I realize to some, its not all just about the function and accuracy, they want the rifle to look "sexy" sitting on their dinning room table or on their fire place. No, you can't buy that off the shelf with savage.

This has been debated time and time again with most agreeing to disagree. I'm not on either side here as I own 6 customs and 1 lil ole savage .223. I just don't see how people can turn a blind eye to the accuracy that savage produces that is as good/equal to any custom.....a bug hole is a bug hole be it fired from a $850 rifle or $5000.

I have absolutey no "need" for another rifle, but I'm tempted to buy that Mod 10 LRP 260 just to compare it to some of mine and others at some of the local shoots. I'd shoot off the shelf ammo in it against my handloads. I'm pretty sure in the end, it's perform just as well as the customs I own in terms of accuracy and reliability.

**** That 5% edge that was said that you get from a custom, well that's only a factor if you can shoot that 5% gap from 95% to 100% and I'd your that good, then you should be somewhat known and have some wood on the wall and trophies in the case. If this is the case with you (the 100% shooter) then yes, you made certainly need the custom in order to utilize 100% of the skill you posses. </div></div>

Excellent points.

A BUG HOLE IS A BUG HOLE!

It seems several guys are saying they build the customs to their likings, and I get that, I had a Manners stock custom fit for me. But, I still shot just as tight if not tighter with my factory savage.

It seems some of the votes towards customs, are justified by, 'because we can'. And I get that too, I've been there many times. But, sticking to the question at hand, 'because you can', doesn't mean you need it. X moa from a savage and X moa from a custom, same smell!

My passion for proving to my 'die hard custom rifle owning, custom hand loading' friends wrong, didn't end at my $850 rifle. I always used box ammo. Don't get me wrong, I reload, and firmly believe in it. But, there is nothing like 1/4", 5 shot groups, with an $850 rifle and off the shelf ammo, consistently!
 
#25
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Why do we have to hash this out once or twice a week?

It's always the same answer. A factory rifle will get you 95% there - and provide excellent accuracy - for $1000, more or less.

The custom provides extra niceties and goodies the factory doesn't. You pay a lot, but you GET exactly what you want.

The Corvette/Ferrari analogy was excellent. The corvette is a helluva performer, and damn well priced for what it does. Plus, Jan Magnussen driving the Z06 will destroy me driving an F430 on the racetrack.

...pretty sure I'd get more thumbs up and women though...

To specifically answer the OP... No, Savage is not going to hurt the custom market. Folks interested in customs aren't looking for the "cheapest way".
 
#26
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

And no, it's not "because we can"...

If Savage made a 284 winchester, throated for 162gr Hornadys, in a McM stock with loggerhead cheekpiece, with a fluted 26" M40 contour barrel plus contoured muzzle brake, I'd of just bought one. But they don't.

I could have bought something "kind of similar" from them, but I didn't want something "kinda similar". I wanted what I wanted, and I had to build it myself.

That all said, if Savage DID build it, they'd sell exactly ONE - to me...so it wouldn't make a whole lot of business sense for them to make it.
 
#27
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do we have to hash this out once or twice a week?

It's always the same answer. A factory rifle will get you 95% there - and provide excellent accuracy - for $1000, more or less.

The custom provides extra niceties and goodies the factory doesn't. You pay a lot, but you GET exactly what you want.

The Corvette/Ferrari analogy was excellent. The corvette is a helluva performer, and damn well priced for what it does. Plus, Jan Magnussen driving the Z06 will destroy me driving an F430 on the racetrack.

...pretty sure I'd get more thumbs up and women though...

To specifically answer the OP... No, Savage is not going to hurt the custom market. Folks interested in customs aren't looking for the "cheapest way". </div></div>

Well, this about sums it up, lol. Although, just to be clear, it wasn't factory rifles vs customs, like other threads, it is some of the select and even more so, recently released savages, like LRP and the FCP HS vs customs.

It sounds like you're saying it comes down to money. Even the super car analogy is a money thing. I guess I fall in to the poor boy column, as I've had a C6, and currently have a 2010 Camaro SS, and can't afford a Ferrari :-(
As I've had $6500 tied up in a rifle, and I'll never do it again, especially with these great rifles being released by Savage.

And I agree, the guys that can afford the customs, won't even consider the cheap Savage's, but, it sure is fun out performing those guys with my budget rifle.
 
#28
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

How about just not wanting the same thing that everybody else has, isn't that where custom anything came from. Accross the board I don't see how Savage is "just as good", but I am glad that they are great rifles. I have a half a dozen different custom guns, tactical shotguns, takedown big bores, oh and a GA Precision rifle. I love them dearly, and am quite proud of them all. I guess I could have saved a boat load of money and just bought off the shelf. I mean they do the same thing right?
 
#29
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

some guys just need to know they spent more. i know alot of guys with 4k and 5k into there guns that cant hit shit but they can sit there all day and tell you what smith built what on there gun. we do alot of groundhog hunting and ive yet to see a woodchuck that gives to shits how much your rifle shoots. savages shoot fantastic out the box
 
#30
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

No, you're still missing the point - at least in regard to many of us. Re-read my last post about getting EXACTLY what you want, versus something "kinda similar"!

If you simply want a tactical type rifle capable of good first round hits out to 1000-1100 yards, Savage has literally dozens of rifles for you...and that covers 95% of the peoples' (collectively) needs.

Even if you just want a 6.5mm, you're covered.

When you want something specific, you gotta build it yourself or have it custom built...and that goes for anything. Cars, rifles, houses...dildos even!
 
#31
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Benchrest shooters coined the word 'bughole' for groups that measured just thousandths over caliber diameter. These shooting forum posters use it very loosely if their group is under an inch!!! A true 'bughole' shooter will be ONE hole a few thousandths over caliber size, not a cluster fuck of shots with gaps in between!!!!!

95+% of shooters and that includes Salvage(no I intentionally spelled it correctly) have never shot a 'bughole' like the term was meant to mean! Shit to some if it shoots under an inch once it is a "bughole" shooter.

You guys that claim your factory Salvage will "consistently" shoot 1/4moa groups but I have yet to see any targets posted. Would love to see those of you who make this statement that your rifle "consistently" shoots sub 1/2moa and with factory ammo no less post some mutli group targets. Dozens and dozens of posts claiming this 1/4 to 1/2 moa time after time groups but NO proof???? Until I see multiple targets from different rifles and different shooters with at least 5 5 shot groups I will call BS that Salvage is 'consistently' capable of the accuracy some of you claim.

Have I owned one? NO! Have shot a few, bedded a couple and did minor repair on a couple and think they are a POS but that is my personal opinion which I am entitled to. As of yet I haven't shot one or personally seen anyone else shoot groups anywhere close to what I have read here or other internet forums!

Sure would be a bunch of stupid and ignorant benchrest shooters if there $4-5K rigs built by some of the countries best machineist shot no better than an off the shelf plastic stocked, sloppy actioned 3rd world tooling marked barrel with Walmart ammo would out shoot them with "consistent" 1/4moa groups "all day long". It must be the "if I do my part" that makes the difference??

Call me names and such if need be but you asked for opinions and my opinion is that Salvage won't break many descent smiths with what they sell, irregardless of price. I can't afford 'custom built' by a long shot but have no desire to own a Salvage.

Just my .02 cents worth. Didn't call anyone a name or a liar so treat me with the same respect!!

Respectfully,
Dennis
 
#32
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, you're still missing the point - at least in regard to many of us. Re-read my last post about getting EXACTLY what you want, versus something "kinda similar"!

If you simply want a tactical type rifle capable of good first round hits out to 1000-1100 yards, Savage has literally dozens of rifles for you...and that covers 95% of the peoples' (collectively) needs.

Even if you just want a 6.5mm, you're covered.

When you want something specific, you gotta build it yourself or have it custom built...and that goes for anything. Cars, rifles, houses...dildos even! </div></div>

LMAO! That's funny! No, I totally get it, I think I'm playing a little devils advocate, if for no other reason, to really hear some cold hard facts that prove customs are better.

So, I'll give the fact that they can be custom made, fit, finish, etc... BUT, I'm still waiting for someone to chime in and discuss accuracy. At the end of the day, isn't that what it's all about?

A BUG HOLE IS A BUG HOLE! That's my saying of the day!
 
#33
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

not every1 is shooting benchrest. hunting rifles dont need to shoot 1/4 moa groups they need to shoot minute of whitetail. 1 shot in a 9 inch circle at 100 yds. any woodchuck gun that shoots half moa is more than capable of consistant hits out to 600 yds. im not saying there isnt a need for the expensive custom rifles. just saying that a savage does a dam good job for a rifle costing twice what they do
 
#35
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Benchrest shooters coined the word 'bughole' for groups that measured just thousandths over caliber diameter. These shooting forum posters use it very loosely if their group is under an inch!!! A true 'bughole' shooter will be ONE hole a few thousandths over caliber size, not a cluster fuck of shots with gaps in between!!!!!

95+% of shooters and that includes Salvage(no I intentionally spelled it correctly) have never shot a 'bughole' like the term was meant to mean! Shit to some if it shoots under an inch once it is a "bughole" shooter.

You guys that claim your factory Salvage will "consistently" shoot 1/4moa groups but I have yet to see any targets posted. Would love to see those of you who make this statement that your rifle "consistently" shoots sub 1/2moa and with factory ammo no less post some mutli group targets. Dozens and dozens of posts claiming this 1/4 to 1/2 moa time after time groups but NO proof???? Until I see multiple targets from different rifles and different shooters with at least 5 5 shot groups I will call BS that Salvage is 'consistently' capable of the accuracy some of you claim.

Have I owned one? NO! Have shot a few, bedded a couple and did minor repair on a couple and think they are a POS but that is my personal opinion which I am entitled to. As of yet I haven't shot one or personally seen anyone else shoot groups anywhere close to what I have read here or other internet forums!

Sure would be a bunch of stupid and ignorant benchrest shooters if there $4-5K rigs built by some of the countries best machineist shot no better than an off the shelf plastic stocked, sloppy actioned 3rd world tooling marked barrel with Walmart ammo would out shoot them with "consistent" 1/4moa groups "all day long". It must be the "if I do my part" that makes the difference??

Call me names and such if need be but you asked for opinions and my opinion is that Salvage won't break many descent smiths with what they sell, irregardless of price. I can't afford 'custom built' by a long shot but have no desire to own a Salvage.

Just my .02 cents worth. Didn't call anyone a name or a liar so treat me with the same respect!!

Respectfully,
Dennis </div></div>

I 100% agree. Way too many claims of accuracy and tight groups and way too little proof. The bughole comment(in this thread) is more of a apples and apples, heck, even if it were, 1/2 moa, I think the guy that started the bughole thing on here, was simply saying, if they are shooting the same then what is the difference.

In my experience, and maybe I've been lucky, the right rifle, with the right ammo. But, I've had three different calibers of Cor-Bon ammo(22-250, .260, and 338 Lapua), that have all been sub 1/2 moa, and I have all of my targets saved in my phone. But, that being said, I do believe and agree with you, accuracy and tight grouping get pretty loose on these forums.

I think the 'if I do my part' goes without saying :)

You sound very knowledgeable and I'm sure you've sent way more bullets down range then me, but, if you get a chance to hang out with someone thats got one of these new savage rifles, and they know what they're doing, you might be surprised.
 
#37
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Here's 10 shots from 600 yards out of my Savage. The 10 ring is 5".

100-6X.jpg


I think some Savages shoot better than some customs. My Savage shoots GREAT - but is utterly outdone by my buddies SAC 308.

My Savage can do 10 shots into a 3/4" circle at 200 yards, but the SAC 308 will leave a 1/2" hole in the paper.
 
#38
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

I'll be a little objective here. I'm a HUGE Savage guy and brag them up to anybody who asks me about a factory rifle but, I would never in a million years place it in the category of a GAP, Skunk, APA, etc.. I know a lot of guys that claim Savage to be as good as a custom have never owned a custom. Not saying all of them, because quite a few here have customs as well or have had, but only a few would say that the Savage is as good as the custom. I think the reason for that is because a lot of guys don't really need the functions of a custom gun. The improved actions that can take more abuse and cycle faster, barrels that get that last bit of accuracy, a stock that can take whatever is thrown at it, triggers that are fine tuned, durable finish, and the list goes on. For a factory rifle, I will always shoot a Savage. However, I will also invest in a custom very soon.

My 6.5 Creedmoor, which I should not have sold, that was built on a Savage action was quite a testament to my reasoning. I shoot quite a bit of benchrest just for the fact that my closest LR range hosts a lot of BR mathes. I had my Savage with it's factory tube shooting pretty good with .75 MOA accuracy with the occasional .5MOA groups. ALL I did was have the action trued and a Bartlein screwed on and it turned into a proven .25MOA gun and was consistently in the top 3 in the matches.

For most guys yes, a savage will do everything they need it to. For those who need or simply want more, the aftermarket is the place to go and I don't see it affecting the custom market too much, if at all.
 
#39
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snipedogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be a little objective here. I'm a HUGE Savage guy and brag them up to anybody who asks me about a factory rifle but, I would never in a million years place it in the category of a GAP, Skunk, APA, etc.. I know a lot of guys that claim Savage to be as good as a custom have never owned a custom. Not saying all of them, because quite a few here have customs as well or have had, but only a few would say that the Savage is as good as the custom. I think the reason for that is because a lot of guys don't really need the functions of a custom gun. The improved actions that can take more abuse and cycle faster, barrels that get that last bit of accuracy, a stock that can take whatever is thrown at it, triggers that are fine tuned, durable finish, and the list goes on. For a factory rifle, I will always shoot a Savage. However, I will also invest in a custom very soon.

My 6.5 Creedmoor, which I should not have sold, that was built on a Savage action was quite a testament to my reasoning. I shoot quite a bit of benchrest just for the fact that my closest LR range hosts a lot of BR mathes. I had my Savage with it's factory tube shooting pretty good with .75 MOA accuracy with the occasional .5MOA groups. ALL I did was have the action trued and a Bartlein screwed on and it turned into a proven .25MOA gun and was consistently in the top 3 in the matches.

For most guys yes, a savage will do everything they need it to. For those who need or simply want more, the aftermarket is the place to go and I don't see it affecting the custom market too much, if at all. </div></div>

Snipedogg, nice to see you join in. I was going down the custom road when all this started a few weeks ago, and I stumbled on several intruiging threads that you either started or participated in, which led me to the FCP HS, that you now have, except I might go 300 win mag.
 
#40
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

If any weirdos out there ever shoot hand cast lead bullets...with all their complications, and the nitty-picky things the competitors do to shoot little bitty bench rest groups...the "Salvage" rifles are cleaning up the lot. Google "Cast Bullet Association" and marvel at the "bugholes". JMHO
 
#42
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extreme454</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snipedogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be a little objective here. I'm a HUGE Savage guy and brag them up to anybody who asks me about a factory rifle but, I would never in a million years place it in the category of a GAP, Skunk, APA, etc.. I know a lot of guys that claim Savage to be as good as a custom have never owned a custom. Not saying all of them, because quite a few here have customs as well or have had, but only a few would say that the Savage is as good as the custom. I think the reason for that is because a lot of guys don't really need the functions of a custom gun. The improved actions that can take more abuse and cycle faster, barrels that get that last bit of accuracy, a stock that can take whatever is thrown at it, triggers that are fine tuned, durable finish, and the list goes on. For a factory rifle, I will always shoot a Savage. However, I will also invest in a custom very soon.

My 6.5 Creedmoor, which I should not have sold, that was built on a Savage action was quite a testament to my reasoning. I shoot quite a bit of benchrest just for the fact that my closest LR range hosts a lot of BR mathes. I had my Savage with it's factory tube shooting pretty good with .75 MOA accuracy with the occasional .5MOA groups. ALL I did was have the action trued and a Bartlein screwed on and it turned into a proven .25MOA gun and was consistently in the top 3 in the matches.

For most guys yes, a savage will do everything they need it to. For those who need or simply want more, the aftermarket is the place to go and I don't see it affecting the custom market too much, if at all. </div></div>

Snipedogg, nice to see you join in. I was going down the custom road when all this started a few weeks ago, and I stumbled on several intruiging threads that you either started or participated in, which led me to the FCP HS, that you now have, except I might go 300 win mag.


</div></div>

Thanks man I appreciate the kind words.

To be honest, the 338 would be overkill compared to the 300 unless your shooting extremely far or deal with crazy windslike we have down here.

The only reason I went with 338 is because in our 1000yd matches the 338's really shine in high head winds and constantly gusting 10mph crosswinds that we get being so close to the coast. Either will be very good at long range and if I didn't have to compete with other 338's, I would go with the 300.
 
#43
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

Extreme.
You had whirlwind call you out on accuracy, If you want to claim 1/4moa accuracy, you need to prove it, prove the consistency.

Otherwise these custom rifle owners cast you off as the normal bullshitter, which is justified, it gets annoying seeing people claim this.... Just to post a target where they cherry pick 3 or 5 shots out of x number of shots for *score*

A single target with 5-5 shot groups and an average of 1/4 moa or less, sounds like a reasonable requirement. Or if you claim 1/2moa, then sub it in for 1/4... So on

As far as savage, that is what I own, 10fcp in a choate tactical, outshoots me with federal gold medal 168's, but that ain't saying much. Accuracy is great, I like the feel of the gun, and my bolt does its job and does it well.
 
#44
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

To add to that, I will most likely go with the 300 for the matches that I do under 1000yd because they do not allow anything over 30 caliber for those and once again, the 7mm and 7.62's really shine with the extreme winds.
 
#46
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

I have all custom rifles and some factory Remys. Shot againist Savage rifles in F-Class matches. I don't over look that they shoot extremely well. I do believe Savage will build the rifle the way you like it, and it doesn't cost as much as a custom.
There is a lot of strong points to a Savage than customs. Want to change barrels, then call them and order a new barrel and screw it on and check the headspace. A friend of mind did this to his and is winning matches. No gunsmith required. More to list but look into them.
If a gun shoots it does not matter what it is. IT IS THE PERSON BEHIND IT MAKES THE HITS. THE RIFLE JUST HELPS.

my 2 cents.
 
#47
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Benchrest shooters coined the word 'bughole' for groups that measured just thousandths over caliber diameter. These shooting forum posters use it very loosely if their group is under an inch!!! A true 'bughole' shooter will be ONE hole a few thousandths over caliber size, not a cluster fuck of shots with gaps in between!!!!!

95+% of shooters and that includes Salvage(no I intentionally spelled it correctly) have never shot a 'bughole' like the term was meant to mean! Shit to some if it shoots under an inch once it is a "bughole" shooter.

You guys that claim your factory Salvage will "consistently" shoot 1/4moa groups but I have yet to see any targets posted. Would love to see those of you who make this statement that your rifle "consistently" shoots sub 1/2moa and with factory ammo no less post some mutli group targets. Dozens and dozens of posts claiming this 1/4 to 1/2 moa time after time groups but NO proof???? Until I see multiple targets from different rifles and different shooters with at least 5 5 shot groups I will call BS that Salvage is 'consistently' capable of the accuracy some of you claim.

Have I owned one? NO! Have shot a few, bedded a couple and did minor repair on a couple and think they are a POS but that is my personal opinion which I am entitled to. As of yet I haven't shot one or personally seen anyone else shoot groups anywhere close to what I have read here or other internet forums!

Sure would be a bunch of stupid and ignorant benchrest shooters if there $4-5K rigs built by some of the countries best machineist shot no better than an off the shelf plastic stocked, sloppy actioned 3rd world tooling marked barrel with Walmart ammo would out shoot them with "consistent" 1/4moa groups "all day long". It must be the "if I do my part" that makes the difference??

Call me names and such if need be but you asked for opinions and my opinion is that Salvage won't break many descent smiths with what they sell, irregardless of price. I can't afford 'custom built' by a long shot but have no desire to own a Salvage.

Just my .02 cents worth. Didn't call anyone a name or a liar so treat me with the same respect!!

Respectfully,
Dennis </div></div>

You're not pay attention. No one here is claiming a factory Savage is benchrest quality. The point is they are manufacturing sub $1,000 rifles capable of consistenly grouping less than 0.5 MOA. We have one that groups consistently in the SUB 0.3 MOA in 270 Win. It's not for benchrest, nor do we want it for that. It's a hunting rifle. We all know Savage's performance in F-class is remarkable. For 99% of the shooting people do here it provides the best value in terms of accuracy. Whether you want a pretty fit and finish is in the eyes of the beholder. We are discussing practical accuracy.
 
#48
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


You guys that claim your factory Salvage will "consistently" shoot 1/4moa groups but I have yet to see any targets posted. Would love to see those of you who make this statement that your rifle "consistently" shoots sub 1/2moa and with factory ammo no less post some mutli group targets. Dozens and dozens of posts claiming this 1/4 to 1/2 moa time after time groups but NO proof???? Until I see multiple targets from different rifles and different shooters with at least 5 5 shot groups I will call BS that Salvage is 'consistently' capable of the accuracy some of you claim.

</div></div>

And there it is... end of thread.
 
#49
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWOAF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


You guys that claim your factory Salvage will "consistently" shoot 1/4moa groups but I have yet to see any targets posted. Would love to see those of you who make this statement that your rifle "consistently" shoots sub 1/2moa and with factory ammo no less post some mutli group targets. Dozens and dozens of posts claiming this 1/4 to 1/2 moa time after time groups but NO proof???? Until I see multiple targets from different rifles and different shooters with at least 5 5 shot groups I will call BS that Salvage is 'consistently' capable of the accuracy some of you claim.

</div></div>

And there it is... end of thread. </div></div>

Seriously?

Tons of sub 1/2 MOA groups on this thread:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...982#Post2228346

including mine.

Why is it so hard to believe a Savage will shoot sub-1/2 MOA?
 
#50
Re: Is Savage killing the Custom Rifle market?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWOAF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


You guys that claim your factory Salvage will "consistently" shoot 1/4moa groups but I have yet to see any targets posted. Would love to see those of you who make this statement that your rifle "consistently" shoots sub 1/2moa and with factory ammo no less post some mutli group targets. Dozens and dozens of posts claiming this 1/4 to 1/2 moa time after time groups but NO proof???? Until I see multiple targets from different rifles and different shooters with at least 5 5 shot groups I will call BS that Salvage is 'consistently' capable of the accuracy some of you claim.

</div></div>

And there it is... end of thread. </div></div>

Touche! Thats good stuff.

If I have to grab the external hard drive out of the safe, or sift through my camera phone for pics, I will. But, I thought its common knowledge, that many savage rifles are sub half moa, this was more about those rifles compared to customs.

There's tons of guys on these threads shooting stock savages under 1/2 moa, with proof!!!

But, I have to admit, "end of thread" still has me chuckling.
 
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