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You will never get radar trajectory information at long ranges for $500, or for any price an individual could afford.
The big question on this thing is can you put it downrange and get a velocity there. Without this ability it's no more useful than a regular chronograph. Much nicer to use, but gives you nothing new. I'm curious why they haven't answered this yet?
The big question on this thing is can you put it downrange and get a velocity there. Without this ability it's no more useful than a regular chronograph. Much nicer to use, but gives you nothing new. I'm curious why they haven't answered this yet?
It's a killer idea, and I can't wait to see it flesh out. I'll be having one to put through the paces for sure. 
I find it hard to believe you couldn't design these to be set up in pairs. For $1000, you could have an easy to use and set up ballistics measurement system. I would do that in a heartbeat - assuming they can make it work. Probably something I'm overlooking, but why not? If you can do one, why not two?
When I asked them at SHOT if it could be utilized with a stand-off, meaning you put it downrange 200 yards and then shoot over it, they did not see why not. Mind you they had like 4 people rapid firing questions at them.
If you chain them they would have to be physically connected with wire(or have a dedicated radio link which would likely be cost prohibitive). And then you have the added statistical noise of two separate devices with different errors measuring things, which can't be ignored.
It sounds like the guys who designed it wanted to replace chronographs, which is easy. All these changes(always on, etc) would be simple software changes for them.
Depending on the radar hardware they used it might be possible to pump the power up and get more range too. Or maybe it has surplus power and slightly longer range measurements are only a software update away? Perhaps they didn't envision anybody wanting to measure velocity at 500yd or farther and thus didn't implement that capability?
It sounds like the guys who designed it wanted to replace chronographs, which is easy. All these changes(always on, etc) would be simple software changes for them.
Depending on the radar hardware they used it might be possible to pump the power up and get more range too. Or maybe it has surplus power and slightly longer range measurements are only a software update away? Perhaps they didn't envision anybody wanting to measure velocity at 500yd or farther and thus didn't implement that capability?
Interesting to say the least. Reminds me of the Superchrono https://www.riflesonly.com/pro-shop/superchrono.html
From all the reviews I read on the Superchrono, it worked well, but did not have the consistency of others like the Oehler and Magnetospeed. It will be interesting to see some real world reviews of this unit to see how accurate and consistent it is.
From all the reviews I read on the Superchrono, it worked well, but did not have the consistency of others like the Oehler and Magnetospeed. It will be interesting to see some real world reviews of this unit to see how accurate and consistent it is.
I asked LabRadar if their radar unit could be set up at 400 yds or 800 yds in order to record bullet velocity coming to or going past their unit. Here's the answer straight from Richard at LabRadar, provided to me via e-mail communication. Very prompt response I might add...
""It is not possible to set up multiple LabRadars to obtain velocities at greater distances. The radar is designed to be triggered by the muzzle blast within twenty four inch or less from the unit. However, since you are obtaining measured velocities downrange at multiple distances your extrapolation of bullet performance at greater distances is greatly improved compared to just one measurement near the muzzle.
Labradar is positioned besides the shooter, not downrange. The shooter aligns the radar using a built-in sighting notch with the target he will shoot at. Ideally LabRadar should be positioned to the side of the shooters muzzle. You should position your firearm approximately 12”-18” from the side of the radar. Make sure that the weapon recoil will not cause the radar to be struck. If you are shooting in a prone position you can position your radar on a mini tripod or other suitable stand to protect it from damage. If you are shooting a firearms that may discharge debris that could strike the radar it may be best to move the firearm slightly forward so the muzzle, cylinder gap, ejecting cases or other discharge will not damage your LabRadar. Upon firing the shot, the radar unit will begin transmitting and will continually track the bullet, reporting numerous velocities along its path. Based upon the large amount of data gathered from the tracked projectile the muzzle velocity can also be determined.
If you have any other questions let us know.
Best regards,
Richard
LabRadar""
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I have 3 chronos, and it seems a bit pessimistic to say no more useful than a regular chrono-or that it gives nothing new. None of my chronos give me velocities at 5 different points in my bullets path in one shot. None of them (except the magnetospeed)can be set up on a hot range, either. If this works as promised, there will never be a reason to buy another chrono brand, period. I will have to sell my other chronos for half of whatever this thing retails for just to make them worth the trouble for whoever buys them. I am in for $500, I would pay right now if they would take my money.
I have 3 chronos, and it seems a bit pessimistic to say no more useful than a regular chrono-or that it gives nothing new. None of my chronos give me velocities at 5 different points in my bullets path in one shot. None of them (except the magnetospeed)can be set up on a hot range, either. If this works as promised, there will never be a reason to buy another chrono brand, period. I will have to sell my other chronos for half of whatever this thing retails for just to make them worth the trouble for whoever buys them. I am in for $500, I would pay right now if they would take my money.
Same here. I'm sick of dealing with hoops and wires. The simplicity of this already has me sold. As long as its accurate and reasonably durable I'm ready to buy.
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Crank up the power. If I can chrono and cook a hot dog in shorts and a T-shirt when it is 20F outside, works for me.
So does it give you the velocities at specific distances? Can those distances be varied? Considering the PVM-08 is $800 this may be right up my alley.
This sounds very interesting. I'll follow this subject to know more about its release and the feedback of first users.
Thank you all.
Thank you all.
I got the same response from Richard when I asked the same question. (I was fully intending to get 2 and set them up in tandem with the second one 800-1000 yards downrange.
His response brought to mind a different question.... if it takes muzzle blast w/in 24 inches to trigger the radar pulse... then how does it work for archery, which is one of the stated uses?????
JEffvn
His response brought to mind a different question.... if it takes muzzle blast w/in 24 inches to trigger the radar pulse... then how does it work for archery, which is one of the stated uses?????
JEffvn
Couple of things,
Firstly, you cannot just crank up the power. FCC regulations and all that. I actually wonder what band it's operating in and what the license conditions are?
Secondly, the width of the beam. On top of the completely valid comments on error stacking, it's going to be very hard to set up a unit at an interim distance and keep the bullet in the beam for much distance. It's also Doppler, so I'm thinking it has to be going directly away from (or towards) the unit or it will read wrongly (without some correction, I presume it will too low).
I suppose you could put it next to the target and point it up at the angle of the incoming bullet, and make some software changes to take account of it. But you still have the triggering problem, not to mention the possible loss of the remote unit to a bullet.
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Firstly, you cannot just crank up the power. FCC regulations and all that. I actually wonder what band it's operating in and what the license conditions are?
Secondly, the width of the beam. On top of the completely valid comments on error stacking, it's going to be very hard to set up a unit at an interim distance and keep the bullet in the beam for much distance. It's also Doppler, so I'm thinking it has to be going directly away from (or towards) the unit or it will read wrongly (without some correction, I presume it will too low).
I suppose you could put it next to the target and point it up at the angle of the incoming bullet, and make some software changes to take account of it. But you still have the triggering problem, not to mention the possible loss of the remote unit to a bullet.
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You guys are pissing on my parade here. At the very least, it looks like a nice chronograph. Still hoping for a consumer-grade BC measuring device some day... Sounds like this won't be it.
If it gives you velocity at the muzzle and velocity at 200yds, some significant BC data will be there. This thing should be pretty good.
Yeah this is actually pretty neat. I've been on the fence about the magnetospeed but just can't get over strapping something to my barrel (POI and possible precision shifts). This is really very simple and very effective to use. 5 accurate velocities at different ranges every shot. I'm sold. That'll do wonders for load development.
I would even go out on a limb and bet that the supersonic crack of a bullet will activate it if set up down range. If a .22lr will activate it, a bullet, minus muzzle blast, going mach 2 will.
I would even go out on a limb and bet that the supersonic crack of a bullet will activate it if set up down range. If a .22lr will activate it, a bullet, minus muzzle blast, going mach 2 will.
It senses the muzzle blast, not the sonic boom. Bullet outruns the muzzle blast downrange and the sonic boom is not reliably detectable at this price point.
The bullet speed 200yd apart, while useful, is not nearly as good as velocity points 500 or 1000 yd apart. Besides, what is anyone here going to do with the information? I doubt anybody is going to develop your own ballistic equations....
The bullet speed 200yd apart, while useful, is not nearly as good as velocity points 500 or 1000 yd apart. Besides, what is anyone here going to do with the information? I doubt anybody is going to develop your own ballistic equations....
I have written my own ballistic calculator and would love to be able to input measured BC's using whatever drag function I feel like instead of relying on manufacturers (who have little financial incentives to give us anything more than approximate numbers). That's just scratching the surface of what could be learned if every shooter had access to long range doppler radar info. Doesn't sound like it's going to happen any time soon, but it would be HUGE for amateur bullet designers. If such a device existed, I think you would see a leap forward in long range bullet performance.
Not sure how you know the sonic crack won't trigger. I can't speculate. If the mfg says so, that's different. Equations and programs already exist that will calculate actual bc based on velocities at different ranges. It may or may not measure velocities at longer ranges but if it does what the mfg says it will, I challenge you to demonstrate a better alternative.
The manufacturer's e-mail response to me stated quite clearly that the unit would have to be placed next to the muzzle of the rifle. ""The radar is designed to be triggered by the muzzle blast within twenty four inch or less from the unit."" And I specifically asked if the unit could placed down range to record bullet velocity at 400 yds or 800 yds. The manufacturer's rep's answer was no. The rep's (Richard's) reply was unequivocal - the muzzle blast is what turns the radar on. See post #59 for the rep's e-mail answer.
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As asked before as well, how will my slingshot or my spitwads trigger it? Joking aside, I'm excited. The images indicate it will give you a V @200yds in addition to muzzle and points in between. That's still unprecedented in consumer chronos.
If it doesn't work with suppressors, they will find limited support.
All this is silly anyway. For $500 you can experimentally determine bullet performance for the cost of a few rounds.
In order to detect a shock wave you would need a more expensive microphone and a bunch of processing power to process the audio real-time. Muzzle blast requires a $1 microphone and no processing power.
Damoncali: calculate your "bc" from drop data. Only one drag curve fit will give you a trajectory correct at all ranges.
In order to detect a shock wave you would need a more expensive microphone and a bunch of processing power to process the audio real-time. Muzzle blast requires a $1 microphone and no processing power.
Damoncali: calculate your "bc" from drop data. Only one drag curve fit will give you a trajectory correct at all ranges.
Probably have to fart really loudly when releasing the bow string, or slingshot pouch. And be within 24" - waist level - so the unit can pick up the muzzle blast.
Someone could write to Richard and ask him about the trigger mechanism for arrows and blow darts...
this looks pretty cool, currently using the magnetospeed which is a huge huge advance over the past 3 crappy chronos i had before. not even having to strap something to my barrell and no poi shifting, yes at 500 bux or less, i would be all over this. any type of trajectory or speeds out to 200 yds would be good. if they sold a longer range model that could do 400 yds, i think they could do a lot of sales in the 700-$800 price range. thats the data we really need. those downrange number would be great.
i really hope they come on here and answer some questions, lots of interest here.
i really hope they come on here and answer some questions, lots of interest here.
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Sounds promising, but not quite there yet. Just like beam divergence with LRFs, you have the same issue with the radar beam. Distance and angle to the target are two limiting factors for radar. When I used to work traffic enforcement with a handheld radar, you had to draw a sketch on the back of each ticket showing distance, your position, and the violator's position so that you could address those two factors should you get challenged in court. You couldn't exceed a 10 degree angle from the violator's direction of travel as the radar becomes less accurate with increasing angle. Hence their limitation of 4 degrees (that's not much at all).
This thing will become useful once they figure out a way to put it downrange and activate it remotely. Should be simple to do. It's running on DC, so hooking it up to a car battery shouldn't be an issue with the proper power regulation.
Measuring velocity to 100 yards and then interpolating beyond that is not useful. We need actual data at 300-400 yards for BC calculation.
No need for more power since beam divergence is the limiting factor. You just need to be able to move it downrange to the point where you want to collect data. Power is going to increase on a logarithmic no linear scale and therefore to the get increased range, you're going to need huge power. Not practical. Also, the FCC does limit radar power output in Part 15.
So the solution is pretty simple. Allow an external battery option and a remote activation option.
This thing will become useful once they figure out a way to put it downrange and activate it remotely. Should be simple to do. It's running on DC, so hooking it up to a car battery shouldn't be an issue with the proper power regulation.
Measuring velocity to 100 yards and then interpolating beyond that is not useful. We need actual data at 300-400 yards for BC calculation.
No need for more power since beam divergence is the limiting factor. You just need to be able to move it downrange to the point where you want to collect data. Power is going to increase on a logarithmic no linear scale and therefore to the get increased range, you're going to need huge power. Not practical. Also, the FCC does limit radar power output in Part 15.
So the solution is pretty simple. Allow an external battery option and a remote activation option.
So is this different than the SuperChorno or not? I had a hard time w/ the SuperChrono. Magneto speed is easier to use, but sucks changing between rifles. Also the Magneto speed is so sensitive. Either way, that's what I use 90% of the time. (Magneto speed)
So sensitive in what way? I agree its a PITA to swap back and forth between various rifles but Ive pretty well got all my rifles outfitted with cans now so the same spacer on the bayonet will work for most of my rifles. They need to make a spacer the slides in and out on rails with a thumb nut kinda like a one sided vice. Would make adjusting for different barrels and can so much easier.
Tag
What difficulties were you having with the Superchrono? I liked the idea, but wanted to use it for rimfire as well, and so I passed on the Superchrono. Unless I am missing something they are no longer listed in the Rifles Only store...
If it performs as stated it should be the best chronograph on the market. I am excited to see this released and tested.
Indeed!
Bumping this thread. I emailed the labradar folks for specs on their system, but unsurprisingly they said it was all proprietary.
I did some more snooping and Infinition is the company that designed the labradar and their bread and butter is designing CW radars for ballistics applications:
BR-1001
I did some more googling and their was a sole source contract for some Infinition products to be installed at Yuma proving ground on fbo.gov, so they are very much the real deal when it comes to fielding these systems.
Their products sheets list a lot of their specs for their 'industrial' systems which I expect to be close to the same for the 'commercial' system. Some nerd hobbyist will probably end up taking one apart and posting about it on the internet, and we can learn all about it then. I'd still like to know more, but this is in my bailiwick, specifically beamwidth as it's pretty easy to visualize the antenna beam and if you will pick up neighboring shots on a crowded firing line. If they have the transmit power worked out, i.e. can pick up everything from .22 to .338 rounds without the user having to adjust transmit power. The screenshot on the labradar site lists velocity reading out to 200 units, I'm assuming meters?, either way, that's pretty solid and indicative of performance if it is not the work of some graphic designer trying to make it look pretty before the engineers figure it out.
This one could be a game changer and I'm excited because tax return is in and I've been waiting for this thing to be released. Let's hope all the bugs have been worked out when version 1.0 is finally delivered.
I did some more snooping and Infinition is the company that designed the labradar and their bread and butter is designing CW radars for ballistics applications:
BR-1001
I did some more googling and their was a sole source contract for some Infinition products to be installed at Yuma proving ground on fbo.gov, so they are very much the real deal when it comes to fielding these systems.
Their products sheets list a lot of their specs for their 'industrial' systems which I expect to be close to the same for the 'commercial' system. Some nerd hobbyist will probably end up taking one apart and posting about it on the internet, and we can learn all about it then. I'd still like to know more, but this is in my bailiwick, specifically beamwidth as it's pretty easy to visualize the antenna beam and if you will pick up neighboring shots on a crowded firing line. If they have the transmit power worked out, i.e. can pick up everything from .22 to .338 rounds without the user having to adjust transmit power. The screenshot on the labradar site lists velocity reading out to 200 units, I'm assuming meters?, either way, that's pretty solid and indicative of performance if it is not the work of some graphic designer trying to make it look pretty before the engineers figure it out.
This one could be a game changer and I'm excited because tax return is in and I've been waiting for this thing to be released. Let's hope all the bugs have been worked out when version 1.0 is finally delivered.
For those who say it will be no more useful than a normal chrono, I disagree. You don't have to set it up downrange and shoot through it; you can have it right next to your shooting position. It is not affected by light and conditions. Sounds like it is more reliable and accurate.
This is exciting to me. Cuz as everyone knows, eventually there will be several companies making one and down the line they will probably cost way less.
This is exciting to me. Cuz as everyone knows, eventually there will be several companies making one and down the line they will probably cost way less.
They said late June for initial release. I'd hold off a bit as they are behind schedule according to Spring estimate and shipping 1.0 is always an issue with technology. Business side wants it shipped and tech side wants it to work.
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I haven't worked on a radar program in many years but FWIW, I ordered a Magnetospeed.
I question the ability to handle power and reliability at that price point. Radars are not low power devices.
I question the ability to handle power and reliability at that price point. Radars are not low power devices.
These guys have a booth here at Bianchi and this unit is very interesting. I'll have to ask about how the unit turns on for archery and what the battery life will be. Still pending fcc approval so no demo available.
Estimated price around $550 from what he said to me today.
Estimated price around $550 from what he said to me today.
Good to hear some news on this. Its been a while.
Super accurate and easy set up. For the money, it is worth it, but for the money, I will wait for someone else to buy serial #0000001. I would like to see someone put it next to the Oehler 35P. If those numbers are right, it should be more accurate than the Oehler.
I am so sick of lugging my CED M2 to the range. Setup is a huge hassle. I have shot the screens before. I was considering a Magnetospeed, but I like this one better. Like Ledzep, I can't get over the idea of strapping something to my barrel during load development.
I am so sick of lugging my CED M2 to the range. Setup is a huge hassle. I have shot the screens before. I was considering a Magnetospeed, but I like this one better. Like Ledzep, I can't get over the idea of strapping something to my barrel during load development.
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