Rifle Scopes LEO sniper in need of new glass.
- Thread starter rm212
- Start date
Hi,
Because how would people with absolutely not only zero first hand experience on what LE Snipers actually use but zero knowledge in agency procurements be able to give their opinions, lolol....
There are 2 specific guys in this thread that have close to 90 years of doing this for a living, lol...
JHuskey started out shooting a blunderbuss and Terry was pioneer of 260 utilization; and since we have an entire shooting generation that has never seen a 260.........well I rest my case, hahahaha
Sincerely,
Theis
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Thanks for confirming what everyone suspected
There's nothing to suspect! The last event I shot in I equaled a 4 year in a row Kentucky State muzzle loader champ that had his .338 Lapua Edge with a $3000 barrel he claimed that was variable twist and he had a $3500 scope with built in range finder and wind correction in it. My factory production RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor with a $400 scope hurt his feelings. So how did his high dollar scope benefit him over mine! The event we were at was four inch and smaller balloons at 600 yards in pretty high wind. Try it sometime...! He also had 2 other guys with Kestrels giving him wind calls too. I just looked thru my scope and said, yeah, the winds blowing, big deal!....He left disappointed...!
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There's a reason NOBODY uses that scope in PRS/NRL precision shooting.
Hi,
And absolutely NONE of that means jack shit in the context of this thread.
Did you have to go to court and defend taking the shot AND defend why you use abc equipment for every balloon missed?
Did you have the potential to face having charging brought against you for missing a balloon?
Geezus Christ.....now balloon shooting on square range gives experience to recommend what LE Units need vs do not need.
Sincerely,
Theis
And absolutely NONE of that means jack shit in the context of this thread.
Did you have to go to court and defend taking the shot AND defend why you use abc equipment for every balloon missed?
Did you have the potential to face having charging brought against you for missing a balloon?
Geezus Christ.....now balloon shooting on square range gives experience to recommend what LE Units need vs do not need.
Sincerely,
Theis
This thread is a lawyer's wet dream should something ever go wrong
LMAO
LMAO
I've been looking at this thread on/off for a couple days and chewing on my thoughts. I've had conversations about this stuff a couple times in the past and everyone has his/her own opinion. Invariably, someone brings up the argument that their AOR is different than someone else's, the requirements are different, the terrain, foliage, distance, elevation, etc, etc. Everyone thinks his AOR is unique, and so must be his gear choice.
Most of my Observer/Sniper experience was in south Alabama and the rest in far west Texas. The places could not be more different. The mission and requirements are the same. As a LE sniper, if you shoot, it'll likely be 50yds or less, it might be 100yds or so, and it will not likely be 200yds or further.
As for focal plane and reticle layout, there is a lot of personal preference/opinion that comes into play. I've used/been issued scopes that were rear/2nd focal plane with mil-dot reticles and 1/4moa knobs, and scopes that were front/1st focal plane with mil reticles/knobs. If you train properly with what you've got, you can probably accomplish the mission just fine.
To illustrate what I mean by training properly.... I've taught a couple classes out here in the wild west. The land is pretty flat/open and there's a lot of space to shoot. Long-gunner's dream, right? Well, many local PD's have access to places to shoot long distance, and that's what they like to do. So, when they get the $$ to get a new setup they tend to over-scope the rifle because the 7-35X ATACR compliments their typical training day in a ranch pasture. Then, they'll come to a class and have a rough time shooting in a more life-like scenario that spans 40yds across a street while in a modified prone position over the hood of a Chevy Tahoe.
For opinion.. The H59 is trash for the LE sniper. 1st focal scopes should be lit. 2nd focal scopes are fantastic. Covered windage knob, locking/covered elev knob. I love my SB 3-12 with GenII mil-dot the best-est. Prioritize useable low-end magnification and field-of-view to enable yourself to accomplish the mission. Best quality you can afford, etc. Steel scope base!
I think @j-huskey and @Terry Cross are giving excellent advice across the board. @fdkay offers valid opinion/experience which should not be discounted. Hopefully @Sierra770 will stop by.
Hello Sir,
I would look at Eurooptic Sir for scidt and bender pricing and availability. I've had very good experiences with their sales department. They will take care of LEO/Military. Rugged wise and optical glass clarity with repeatability and built for the job a 4x20 schmidt PM II would be a perfect choice for that Remington .308. also if your department is able to send that rifle to Tac Ops out in Beverly Hills California then you will have a purpose built duty rifle that will not fail, and is a true precision piece of your gear. His rifles and accurizing packages are tier 1. God bless you and the people like you. Have a great day sir.
Regards,
Distance
MK5, also there is no 'LEO' In Leupold.
Look at TRACTOptics.com . Company sells direct, no middlemen. They will make you a deal. Go to the chat link and the owners will answer
Why?
Excellent glass and doesn't waver. 4-20x50 FFP floating dot center MRAD or MOA ,also in 3-15x50 same. Quality scopes w/ SCHOTT glass. Prices will put him way under his budget w/ the LEO discount
Even on page 4 I still feel the NF ATACR 4-16 X 42 is one of the best options
Decent zoom range
Covered windage
Locking elevation
Tenebraex caps
Illuminated reticle
Built like a tank
I have one on my AT 308 and if I ever came up with a perfect reliable platform that would be the combo I’d choose. Mine is FFP however
When I carried my rifle for work my one main concern aside from it being reliable was “if the electronics fail, could I still use the rifle” I really do like the SFP idea for this fact. You’d have a lot of money, time, training, liability resting on one trigger pull. If a battery failed could you still accomplish the task. I know on a FFP optic in low light the answer is a definite no for me
Decent zoom range
Covered windage
Locking elevation
Tenebraex caps
Illuminated reticle
Built like a tank
I have one on my AT 308 and if I ever came up with a perfect reliable platform that would be the combo I’d choose. Mine is FFP however
When I carried my rifle for work my one main concern aside from it being reliable was “if the electronics fail, could I still use the rifle” I really do like the SFP idea for this fact. You’d have a lot of money, time, training, liability resting on one trigger pull. If a battery failed could you still accomplish the task. I know on a FFP optic in low light the answer is a definite no for me
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At your budget? Nightforce SHV, 4-14 F1, and Nightforce rings. You have money left to put a good rail on top as well. You could also call Mile High or Euro Optic and ask about display/sample scopes. I'm issued a Leupold Mk 6 and have a personal SHV, and I actually think they are pretty equivalent in terms of quality and capability. You basically jump from about 1k to 2k if you are talking about quality first focal plane options and decide you need additional features not present in the SHV line.
ETA - it sounds like plenty of people in this thread have no idea what sort of set ups a lot of police officers are running around with. In many cases the department has had the same scope/rifle for 15+ years.
ETA - it sounds like plenty of people in this thread have no idea what sort of set ups a lot of police officers are running around with. In many cases the department has had the same scope/rifle for 15+ years.
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I went through a basic and advanced school with a rifle just like yours and a Sig Tango6 optic. You can get them decently priced if you look for the discounts. They’re pretty decent, hold zero well and have an illuminated reticle. Check into the upper end Vortex optics too, they can be decent from what I saw at the schools on other operators rifles. Also, it might be worth noting that I just upgraded to the Mark 5 directly through Leupold. Their prices directly from them is good once you verify your eligibility. Rule of thumb though, spend the money on quality glass, save up if you have to. The optic will be the difference between good shots and bad ones, assuming you are using quality ammo too.
That’s fine if it works for them. I’ll add to this by saying there’s many cops that can’t shoot for shit, don’t have much knowledge in the equipment they carry and although they carry it for 15 years it doesn’t mean they necessarily can accomplish the task with it. I’ll give some examples;
One LE agency near to me had 1 certified officer with a 700P 20” 308 topped with a Leupold MK4. He could shoot decent at best, we all are aware of the failures in the mk4 compared to say the mk5 and yes it worked for him but he never used the rifle outside of a few shots at the range. He retired, the rifle went in the safe and the role remains unfilled. It’s something he asked to certify in
Another LE that worked directly with us had a 700P 308 in their safe. When I asked about it they replied that it could definitely use a different optic because the optic was shit. Then followed it up by saying they weren’t sure if anyone’s even shot it but it was there if they needed it
There’s a difference between a police sniper who is tied to a swat team and actually qualifies with his rifle once a month and does the job often and is familiar with his equipment
vs
I’m going to go on a limb here and guess the op works for a small agency and inquired about sniper school because it’s something he personally wants to do, rather than a Dept needing to fill a sniper slot. The Dept thinks it’s a good idea not necessarily for the hostage situation etc but rather to have the ability to reach out and touch if needed.
Ex: roll up on a house with a long driveway, guy exits with AR, need the capability to handle the situation immediately and in comes the OP with a way to handle it if needed.
For other situations that have more planning and involved an actual swat team will be called and they will handle the situation. The OP will standby and wait for said team to execute their raid, likely parked on a road in the area in case the subject leaves the location before the team is set
This is just a guess but departments here utilize guys that want to take on the precision rolls as a void to fill for that “just in case” scenario. The guy shows interest, asked to be sent to the school, gives several valid reasons why it’s a good idea to have someone equipped with such a rifle, gets a limited (what we can spare) budget, the Dept pays for the ammo and this person becomes another tool in the Dept tool box to utilize if absolutely needed
We anticipated situations frequently where we couldn’t get close to a residence (country living) and what we could do if someone fired shots from 200, 400 etc yards away
That said, if you intend to fill a role, be serious about what “might” occur so you don’t become a “what not to do” training video
Proposition for you to back up your knowledge base and show the ability of Iron sights to do the job.....
I will give you a free slot to the next 1 Mil Right BASIC L.E. PMO class.
You skip all classroom and range teaching blocks (unless you are commissioned and active L.E.)
You only have to take your spot on the line for every shooting and observation exercise and put your shots on YOUR target, on demand and within the time hacks.
You have to perform the same runs with your rifle that are built into some of the exercises and quals. Just like the rest of the class.
I guarantee that with your iron sights, you will not surpass 50% on any of the skill set exercises during daytime.
I guarantee that with your iron sights, you will not surpass 25% on any of the skill set exercises after dark (even the ambient light drills).
I guarantee that you will Fail both final mandatory shooting tests (they require 80% or better and automatic failure for missing the cold bore shot).
Note that almost all of the skill set exercises and drills are 100yds or closer.
Note that both of the mandatory shooting tests are 100yds and in.
*Just so you know it is really snipery we do shoot some drills and confirm data to 600-800 but you wouldn't be required to waste your ammo at those ranges.
Here is the deal......
You meet or surpass the above percentages on the listed shooting exercises during the week and pass the mandatory quals at the end of the week with your iron sights and I put $5K cash in your hand.
If you shoot at or below the levels I predict above, you put $5K cash in my hand which I would then donate to American Snipers.org and the Scout Recon Foundation.
We would have one of the range cadre un-associated with either of us hold the money until the course is done.
Let me know ASAP so I can reserve you a spot.
PS: Same offer for goes for @strikeeagle1 with your RDS.
./
I have run Luepold for 20 plus years and never had one fail. I presently own about a half dozen including an early MK 4. The new MK 5 is an excellent scope. I don’t personally like the reticle in the NF ATACR but the glass is excellent and they are nearly in destructible. The Vortex Razor and Athlon Cronus are good choices as well and would easily fit in your budget. The Athlon reticle is my favorite because it is thin and I am use to it. Running several Athlons as well. My other scope which is on my 308 is a 3-12 PMii. If money where not an issue it or the NF would be my recommendation. I don’t know what S&B’s military and police discount is but it might be worth a look. Any of these would be a good choice and all but the Atacr and pmii should fit within your budget. Our local LE just bought a Vortex and I think the discount was around 60 percent direct from Vortex but don’t quote me on that. The vortex is the heaviest option. Good luck!
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Something else to consider if the average distance is around 65 yards that means half the shots are less less than that. A lot of scopes will not focus under 50 yards. That narrows the selection
Fully agree with the NF ATACR line, but I'd lean towards the 4-16x50 F1 if you have the barrel clearance.
@Rthur - Some unsolicited Pink Kicks Club advice.
Dont argue with idiots. They will pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Seems they outnumber you by quite a margin in here too.
Dont argue with idiots. They will pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Seems they outnumber you by quite a margin in here too.
Lol@Rthur - Some unsolicited Pink Kicks Club advice.
Dont argue with idiots. They will pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Seems they outnumber you by quite a margin in here too.
Just bored, killem with kindness.
For now.
R
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I'd like to try the class with irons....
So are we talking about the first anual Terry Cross sniper wanabe challange?
Wish I owened some land.
No disrespect intended.
It would be cool to shoot a course of fire and drills he set up without the constraint of a job requirement.
Don't even have to be a competition.
Wish I owened some land.
No disrespect intended.
It would be cool to shoot a course of fire and drills he set up without the constraint of a job requirement.
Don't even have to be a competition.
Check out
www.sigsauer.com
FFP for under $800
Designed by ex-leupold engineers
I like mine but it's way more capability than I need (so far)
TANGO4 6-24x50 mm
The ideal solution for long range precision shooting, tactical engagements and long-range hunting.
www.sigsauer.com FFP for under $800
Designed by ex-leupold engineers
I like mine but it's way more capability than I need (so far)
I would like to address the wonderful members of the forum that have commented here. I think we have missed some pertinent facts here. It was page 1 comment #1. @rm212 You said your rifle is a remington 700 AAC SD in .308.
Does it still have that rubber-ish grippy plastic hogue stock that will flex when a bipod is loaded or occasionally touch the barrel?
@Terry Cross and @THEIS and a couple of others have provided solid advice and addressed some of the issues you need to address.
Honestly you might be better served with an AR-15 with a NF1-8 ATACR or NX8 on it. If that is not ideal then a 3-12 S&B would be a nice option for your .308
Can we start a hide fund to get this guy a manners or mcmillan stock?
Does it still have that rubber-ish grippy plastic hogue stock that will flex when a bipod is loaded or occasionally touch the barrel?
@Terry Cross and @THEIS and a couple of others have provided solid advice and addressed some of the issues you need to address.
Honestly you might be better served with an AR-15 with a NF1-8 ATACR or NX8 on it. If that is not ideal then a 3-12 S&B would be a nice option for your .308
Can we start a hide fund to get this guy a manners or mcmillan stock?
You could look at the Sig Sauer Tango 4 and 6 series they are good robust scopes and are reasonably priced with the magnification range you are looking for
Forgot to mention the Sig's have a life time warranty
@schmi015 - I had those observations and questions too.
I think even an HS would be acceptable. I have used several and always found them decent.
However, with a join date of 22 April, 2021 and not vetted to the LEO corner, Im less inclined to do a fundraiser (and yes, I have been the "bank" for a few with GGWG that has morphed in the the Squirrel Mafia). I promise, piling together to help a guy is always on the SM agenda.
@Leland T - no I shoot on private land most all of the time. sometimes other places, but rarely
I think even an HS would be acceptable. I have used several and always found them decent.
However, with a join date of 22 April, 2021 and not vetted to the LEO corner, Im less inclined to do a fundraiser (and yes, I have been the "bank" for a few with GGWG that has morphed in the the Squirrel Mafia). I promise, piling together to help a guy is always on the SM agenda.
@Leland T - no I shoot on private land most all of the time. sometimes other places, but rarely
I am going to confirm what you say here, it is so spot on, it's scary. I work for a small agency and I basically used exactly what you're saying as a way to get the course.
Now, I am a bit different than most, I do a lot of research, I shoot pretty regularly, not always my department rifle, but precision rifles.
We DON'T have a team and call outs are very rare, but, we have the capability should the need arise.
I dabble in the occasional long range PRS type match (not actual PRS) as best I can, when my schedule permits.
Mag range unsuitable for the job at hand.Check out
TANGO4 6-24x50 mm
The ideal solution for long range precision shooting, tactical engagements and long-range hunting.
FFP for under $800
Designed by ex-leupold engineers
I like mine but it's way more capability than I need (so far)
FFP is certainly viable, but not ideal for LE use as has been stated.
Tract Optics , I recommend them to my custom rifle customers almost daily. No Chicom parts,period.Phenomenal service.Pricing fits your limits. Good Shooting and Thank you for being Constable on Patrol. Honorbound, David
it is the factory stock but i haven't had any issues with it. the gun will do .75MOA all day and when im really on my game i can get .5 but thats rare. i would love to upgrade to a better stock or chassis system but thats not something i need.
The French, on a very limited budget do quite well with a simple setup using the Manuhrin MR73; a rear bag in their kit might be handy.
It's a Bushnell Magnum Phantom 1.5× on 8" and 10" barrels.
It's a Bushnell Magnum Phantom 1.5× on 8" and 10" barrels.
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Hi,
You get with Terry at 1Mil Right https://www.1milrt.com/, pick the course this year. I have already spoken with him...literally 2 minutes ago.
Sincerely,
Theis
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