M110 replacement?

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshallwk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The whole 5.56 versus 7.62 debate is definately another subject.

The weight issue is pretty negligible. At least as far as a Sniper Section is concerned. That's more of a entire army debate. A higher BC bullet with greater terminal effects is something every ""sniper"" I know would take.

How many "snipers" actually talk good of the MK12? I don't know many outside of the Navy that actually still use that thing.

</div></div>

I know several snipers (Army)that speak very highly of the MK12. One deployed to Afghanistan on his first deployment with an SR25 and found many drawbacks to the amount of ammo he could carry with him. He carried 400-600 rounds with him when it was just him and his two local turps (he wasn't counting on them to do much with their AKs and 1 mag). That's up to 54 pounds in just ammo!!

His second deployment, he carried just the MK12 and found that he could carry much more ammo with less weight. 600 rounds of 5.56 weighs just over 18 pounds, that's a difference of 41 pounds if you factor in the weapon's weight difference. That may be negligible if you are driving to the range, but an extra 41 pounds in your pack and gear at high altitudes just plane SUCKS!!!

Another sniper put his MK18 upper on his MK12 lower and carried his MK12 upper in his pack. Both guns were zeroed to MK262. Also, both snipers had DOPE for the M855 round should they have to borrow ammo from other shooters.

I'm not saying that either 5.56 or 7.62 is better, just that they both have their place and fulfill their intended roles.

 

[armydog]

Re: M110 replacement?

What model Bushnell are they looking at?

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

I want to say this one, but I could be wrong, like I said, I haven't had a chance to play with it.

http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/eliteTactical/ET6245F/

 

[Awesymoto]

Re: M110 replacement?

or we could just save this argument, because uncle sam and corporal so and so, rarely talk about what works and what doesn't.

 

[marshallwk]

Re: M110 replacement?

Partial to nf myself but as long as it's mil/mil and works, I'd be happy. The leupold cqbss is a good example of what can be had. Hopefully someone other than tier one and the marines(who are using it on their heavy weapons-WTF) gets to use it.

I put sniper in quotations for a reason, don't know any actual snipers that like the mk12. Hell I like it, but as a sniper weapon system definitely not. After personally shooting people with green tip who not only don't die, but get right back up, I try to use 7.62 much as possible. If there is no other weapon system available then it's not a bad system. Part of it is as you said, uppers are interchangeable and in a bad situation you can easily resupply

And instead of carrying 600 rounds, I carry basic load but actually aim when I shoot. And what kind of sniper team needs 600 rounds unless it's in a saw.

 

[taseal]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshallwk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as the whole M110 issue. One of the big things that needs fixed is the glass. For gods sakes its 2011. Why is the army still ordering Leupolds with Mildot reticles and MOA adjustments?
</div></div>

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/xm2010/

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New Leupold Scope for M24E1
A key component of the M24E1 system is the new 6.5-20x50mm Leupold Mark 4 Extended Range/Tactical (ER/T) M5 riflescope (34mm locking version). This scope features First Focal Plane (FFP) Horus ranging reticles (H27 or H58), side parallax adjustment, and a beefy 34mm maintube.

Other notable features of the new ER/T include M5 windage and elevation adjustment dials with audible, tactile 1/10 (0.1) milrad clicks to match the mil-based Horus reticles. An elevation zero-stop helps prevent under-rotation in high-stress situations. The eyepiece offers long eye relief and it employs a “lockable” fast-focus design to ensure that the reticle remains in sharp focus. The scope has an auto-locking elevation adjustment.</div></div>

I know it's not for the M110, but take it FWIW.

some snipers used a NF with a H58 and won the competition, and the other horus users too.

They used the LaRue OBR vs others using bolt actions.

not trying to start a horus fight here, but there are other scopes being tested out there. and they are working very well.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshallwk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Partial to nf myself but as long as it's mil/mil and works, I'd be happy. The leupold cqbss is a good example of what can be had. Hopefully someone other than tier one and the marines(who are using it on their heavy weapons-WTF) gets to use it.

I put sniper in quotations for a reason, don't know any actual snipers that like the mk12. Hell I like it, but as a sniper weapon system definitely not. After personally shooting people with green tip who not only don't die, but get right back up, I try to use 7.62 much as possible. If there is no other weapon system available then it's not a bad system. Part of it is as you said, uppers are interchangeable and in a bad situation you can easily resupply

And instead of carrying 600 rounds, I carry basic load but actually aim when I shoot. And what kind of sniper team needs 600 rounds unless it's in a saw.</div></div>

Not a team, one U.S. sniper with two Afghanis with 30 rounds each, out on an extended mission with no resupply plan. I don't question someone else's reasoning on how they solved a problem if I have not been in that situation.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: M110 replacement?

taseal,

you are under the mistaken impression that using an OBR put them at a disadvantage against the military issued rifles, bolt action or otherwise. That is simply not the case. The OBR is easily a 1/2MOA rifle, and in some cases probably more accurate than the issued weapons systems used. New versus thousands of rounds.

The Horus didn't win the match, the shooters win, if they were worked up on something else it the outcome would have been the same. In this case the reticle was not a deciding factor, it never is.

Army bolt guns are not 1/4MOA custom sticks and with today's semi autos they are every bit as accurate as any M24 or Mk 13 out there being used.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We are testing several mil/ mil scopes to replace our Leupolds. I am pretty partial to Nightforce. I love the F1, but think it is to big to be putting on a carbine</div></div>

USO SN3 with 37mm objective, or their 1.8-10X37.

 

[marshallwk]

Re: M110 replacement?

The OBR's they used were personal weapons in some instances, or once again tier one units. That's like me shooting a comp with my GAP crusader and chocking it up as a win for the army or the M24.

And the new Leupold I would be happy with. People are quick to bash Leupold, same as they are KAC. As an end user I don't care if my grandmother is churning these things out by the thousands in her basement, long as it works. Those new Leupolds look like they would fit the bill. Hell even the FFP isn't as big a deal with the widespread use of LRF(yes they break). It's nice, but not as nice as the mil/mil would be

I talk alot of crap about KAC, but if their new carbine fits the bill so be it. It doesn't matter as much to me that it will cost 10k+, but it should as a taxpayer. And once again that's not KAC's fault, that's the armys for always wanting a $10,000 system(pelican case, cleaning kit, pouches, bottle opener, multitool etc) to ship with every rifle. Meanwhile the over 1 MOA rifle ships with a $1,000 Mil/Moa, single plane scope.

 

[Dsparil]

Re: M110 replacement?

Marshall agreed. Especially in this day and age with our economic depression, you'd think we'd be trying to find corners to cut. I'd say the OBR is hellishly better than anything KAC has ever put out and it'd save some money. $2,000 a rifle(that was the opening cost and I'd be willing to bet that's what Larue's price would be to the military) is a great deal better than $5,000 for a rifle. I've got a 16" OBR on the way. I had a chance to get the EM carbine but opted against it.

 

[AEROMechanic]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dsparil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Marshall agreed. Especially in this day and age with our economic depression, you'd think we'd be trying to find corners to cut. I'd say the OBR is hellishly better than anything KAC has ever put out and it'd save some money. $2,000 a rifle(that was the opening cost and I'd be willing to bet that's what Larue's price would be to the military) is a great deal better than $5,000 for a rifle. I've got a 16" OBR on the way. I had a chance to get the EM carbine but opted against it. </div></div>

For the money KAC has put into the development of the EMC, and listening to the requests of the tier 1 guys in the sand box as well as in the jungles south of the equator I have no doubt theirs is the best 7.62mm/.308 battle carbine out there vs other AR types. The hurdle myself and many others keep running into is is it worth a $2000+ premium over it's nearest competitor.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: M110 replacement?

I have tried mightily and failed to ignore this thread.

As a tax payer, I cannot in good faith let this thread die without commenting on the rip-off/disaster that is the M110.

Per wikkipedia, kit-up, lightfighter forum, et al, we paid $8,000 for an unreliable, 1.5MOA or worse rifle (with premium ammo)...sigh.

So far, KAC with their triple tap, M110, and the first SR-25 rifles have established a reputation as a company that specializes in producing overpriced, underperforming, products with a premium price.

I wonder what would become of KAC as a buisness without help from stupid military procurement descisions and fanboys that buy their crap so that they can impress their buddies or get cool points on the internet.

(Flame Suit on).

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have tried mightily and failed to ignore this thread.

As a tax payer, I cannot in good faith let this thread die without commenting on the rip-off/disaster that is the M110.

Per wikkipedia, kit-up, lightfighter forum, et al, we paid $8,000 for an unreliable, 1.5MOA or worse rifle (with premium ammo)...sigh.

So far, KAC with their triple tap, M110, and the first SR-25 rifles have established a reputation as a company that specializes in producing overpriced, underperforming, products with a premium price.

I wonder what would become of KAC as a buisness without help from stupid military procurement descisions and fanboys that buy their crap so that they can impress their buddies or get cool points on the internet.

(Flame Suit on).
</div></div>

You are a great American...

 

[DP425]

Re: M110 replacement?

Uh- 1.5moa? Maybe for one that's had 15k rounds through it and been cleaned with a shitty steel cleaning rod.

With M118LR, mine usually could swing 1moa or better. I'm no huge advocate of KAC, but you're going a little far there. Are they over priced? Most likely. Are they hugely unreliable? No- they have had faults, and when ran as a battle rifle they don't last as long, but you're making blanket statements that are a bit overly-bold.

Cut your intensity of KAC bashing back maybe 50% or so and you'll get some agreeing with you.

 

[armydog]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Current KAC M110 contract price is around $11,800 this is for the WHOLE kit -- a slew of options that the ARMY contracting office required.


Our M110 Carbine will beat all comers.

Very few companies have the required infrastructure to build over 200 guns a month, let alone act as the depot level refubishment center.

I love the fact that people who through pricing around quote commercial guns, with no spare parts, no UID's, no nylon pouches, no cleaning kits, no scope, no hard cases etc. etc. etc. all items the government specified with the XM-110 Program.

We at KAC have been working with the Army to field an upgraded system, at a lower cost with more useful accessories to the end users. </div></div>

Kevin, what can you tell me about the offset back up iron sights used on the rifle you pictured? Price, maker, so on?

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: M110 replacement?

DP425,

There are plenty of reports of greater than 1MOA accuracy with M118LR (this website, lightfighter, american rifleman magazine)...in other words, underwhelming, underperforming, or what ever words u wouldn't expect to use to describe an $8,000 rifle.

The point is that $8,000 for a > 1MOA rifle with reliability issues is MADDENING to say the least. A rifle that costs $8,000 of taxpayer money needs to be better than anything else out there by a ratio of the price difference.

At the end of the day, we have an $8,000, unreliable, underperforming rifle that's not living up to the hype.

As soon as people start being honest about performace of KAC products relative to the competition, we are simply gonna have to agree to disagree about "bashing" or pointing out the obvious about KAC.

I hope the pentagon back-charges KAC for the cost of this POS rifle plus punitive damages in order to send a message to other govt contractors with designs of ripping off the taxpayers...

I'm not afraid to call shit, shit.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: M110 replacement?

Kevin, if you are not the decision maker(s) at KAC this is not addressed to you. Whomever is: They/he/she are/is full of shit. Whomever is wearing the shoe that fits, wear it.

Fellow members; don't believe a word of it. You are hearing from the fox in the hen house (or a representative thereof). Let us not be foolish.

I'm not saying that weapon does not cost that much for you to build. If it does, you need to find a more cost-effective way to built it. I'm saying KAC is fleecing their pockets and the US government is allowing it while we sit here on our asses and watch. Bullfuckingshit! That's all this is.

If there is a response it will likely be an assertion that I don't know what I'm talking about. But I do. I've worked with those in government, I've worked for the government, including Washington, I've represented the government, I've opposed the them and I know guns and business. I suspect somebody is getting screwed in this deal and I think its us.

Can someone research the public records for the campaign contributions to members of Congress by KAC? I'll bet they give the limit. And I'll bet the have a lobbyist.

 

[Alderleet]

Re: M110 replacement?

It'd be kinda cool if they gave us the option of picking our loadout.

Then again, they'd have a logistical nightmare...

I'd like to see a lightweight, folding, piston driven, 556 rifle, that has teh ability to run open bolt, as a squad designated MG, and still be able to fill a DMR role, if needed.

But i'm just pissing in the wind with that hope

 

[DP425]

Re: M110 replacement?

I'm just curious how many you have shot?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DP425,

There are plenty of reports of greater than 1MOA accuracy with M118LR (this website, lightfighter, american rifleman magazine)...in other words, underwhelming, underperforming, or what ever words u wouldn't expect to use to describe an $8,000 rifle.

The point is that $8,000 for a > 1MOA rifle with reliability issues is MADDENING to say the least. A rifle that costs $8,000 of taxpayer money needs to be better than anything else out there by a ratio of the price difference.

At the end of the day, we have an $8,000, unreliable, underperforming rifle that's not living up to the hype.

As soon as people start being honest about performace of KAC products relative to the competition, we are simply gonna have to agree to disagree about "bashing" or pointing out the obvious about KAC.

I hope the pentagon back-charges KAC for the cost of this POS rifle plus punitive damages in order to send a message to other govt contractors with designs of ripping off the taxpayers...

I'm not afraid to call shit, shit. </div></div>

 

[Daps!]

Re: M110 replacement?

Clearly those of you worried about this "gross" example of fraud, waste, and abuse have never been deployed. The ol USof A hemorrhages money on a lot worse stuff then the m110. I've also noticed not many of you are basing your bashing on personal experience. Perhaps some of you Internet snipers should slow down a bit. I'm not a huge 110 fan but I also know that it is not even a drop in the ocean of money that uncle Sam spends.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daps!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clearly those of you worried about this "gross" example of fraud, waste, and abuse have never been deployed. The ol USof A hemorrhages money on a lot worse stuff then the m110. I've also noticed not many of you are basing your bashing on personal experience. Perhaps some of you Internet snipers should slow down a bit. I'm not a huge 110 fan but I also know that it is not even a drop in the ocean of money that uncle Sam spends. </div></div>

I can and have based my comments off of my experience. I am not at all impressed with my KAC, it will not hold less than 1.5 moa. Yes, it does have more than 1,500 rounds down the tube, but I never shot it new so I can not speak for its performance then.
It does run smooth, and I cannot say I have had a serious malfunction with it.

The suppressor is louder than all other .30 cal cans I have compared it too. They put a POS Leupold on it that moves right past its zero stop.

I have shot and prefer the Larue OBR as well as my Noveske AR10.

As for the rest of the Governments fraud waste and abuse, I see it all the time and I speak out about it when I am given the chance. We as tax payers have to start somewhere, especially when our government had to tell the troops they didn't have the money to pay them.

Pennies make dollars fellas, stop the waste!

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: M110 replacement?


Daps, I was thinking about that. Last time I was in Washington I saw Lockheed and the other top defense contractor's complexes between Washington National Airport and the Pentagon illustrating the huge sum they are able to spend maintaining vigil because of the huge profits they earn from contracts.

Btw, this is getting off the subject; the original issue is M110 replacement.

But if this topic helps get us fired up about waste its good.

 

[poison123]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daps!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clearly those of you worried about this "gross" example of fraud, waste, and abuse have never been deployed. The ol USof A hemorrhages money on a lot worse stuff then the m110. I've also noticed not many of you are basing your bashing on personal experience. Perhaps some of you Internet snipers should slow down a bit. I'm not a huge 110 fan but I also know that it is not even a drop in the ocean of money that uncle Sam spends. </div></div>

I can and have based my comments off of my experience. I am not at all impressed with my KAC, it will not hold less than 1.5 moa. Yes, it does have more than 1,500 rounds down the tube, but I never shot it new so I can not speak for its performance then.
It does run smooth, and I cannot say I have had a serious malfunction with it.

The suppressor is louder than all other .30 cal cans I have compared it too. They put a POS Leupold on it that moves right past its zero stop.

I have shot and prefer the Larue OBR as well as my Noveske AR10.

As for the rest of the Governments fraud waste and abuse, I see it all the time and I speak out about it when I am given the chance. We as tax payers have to start somewhere, especially when our government had to tell the troops they didn't have the money to pay them.

Pennies make dollars fellas, stop the waste! </div></div>

What model do you have? It sure as shit ain't the newer EMC/EMR generation.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: M110 replacement?

Back to the reason I started this. I know there was a briefing on the small arms program at SOFIC but I was called back from the show. Did anyone attend and/or know if the M110 program upgrade/replacement was discussed?

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: M110 replacement?


http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/reed-knight.asp?cycle=06

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/c-knight.asp?cycle=10

http://watchdog.net/empl/knights%20armament%20co

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/knig...4m16-mws-01955/

 

[DP425]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daps!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clearly those of you worried about this "gross" example of fraud, waste, and abuse have never been deployed. The ol USof A hemorrhages money on a lot worse stuff then the m110. I've also noticed not many of you are basing your bashing on personal experience. Perhaps some of you Internet snipers should slow down a bit. I'm not a huge 110 fan but I also know that it is not even a drop in the ocean of money that uncle Sam spends. </div></div>

I can and have based my comments off of my experience. I am not at all impressed with my KAC, it will not hold less than 1.5 moa. Yes, it does have more than 1,500 rounds down the tube, but I never shot it new so I can not speak for its performance then.
It does run smooth, and I cannot say I have had a serious malfunction with it.

The suppressor is louder than all other .30 cal cans I have compared it too. They put a POS Leupold on it that moves right past its zero stop.

I have shot and prefer the Larue OBR as well as my Noveske AR10.
</div></div>

Zero stop? What? The M2 doesn't have zero stops. And this is one of my many gripes about the system, but from what I understand the scope was a choice by the Army, not KAC.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

I have M3 turrets on my SR25. I'm not sure who is responsible for this decision, but we are working diligently to correct it.

As for M2 turrets, I am looking at my Leupold 2.5-8 with M2s (which will be for sale as soon as CS gets my 2.5-10 NF in stock) and it does indeed have a zero stop. The M1 turret does not have a zero stop.

...And we did just finish our T&E with the EMC along with a couple other carbine .308s, I'm still not impressed.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: M110 replacement?

The Army is looking at a new scope for the M110 Upgrade.

To me the no brainer interim scope should be the 6.5-20x Leupy from the M2010 program -- common scope for sniper - H58 reticle.

I'll let the haters hate, your not going to find a gun that can withstand the M118LR shooting schedule, that does not kill optics outside our gun...

 

[DP425]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have M3 turrets on my SR25. I'm not sure who is responsible for this decision, but we are working diligently to correct it.

As for M2 turrets, I am looking at my Leupold 2.5-8 with M2s (which will be for sale as soon as CS gets my 2.5-10 NF in stock) and it does indeed have a zero stop. The M1 turret does not have a zero stop.

...And we did just finish our T&E with the EMC along with a couple other carbine .308s, I'm still not impressed. </div></div>


Well, I have NEVER seen an M110 with zero stop knobs. I understand upon further reading that you CAN get them with some sort of ball bearing type zero-stop, as you can do with the M3. But understand, I have yet to see an army M2 or M3 with zero stop. But again, this scope was not up to KAC. Neither was the buttstock... the marginal suppressor was and the scope mount that pretty much requires loctite as well.

Anyway, my reference wasn't even to your complaints in the first place, it was directed at that one dude who went off on an overboard rant about it.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

DP425, I have yet to play with an Army M110 so I do not know what type of turrets they are using. All the M3 and M2 turrets that I have used have had zero stops, or at least what Leupold uses for a zero stop. After you zero your scope, you loosen up the turret screws and slide the scale so that the zero is lined up with the index line or dot.

No worries though, I did not take any offense from your remarks.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... your not going to find a gun that can withstand the M118LR shooting schedule, that does not kill optics outside our gun...
</div></div>

Kevin,
This statement confuses me. Are you implying that their are no other guns that can handle the M118LR?

 

[rchman]

Re: M110 replacement?

When I was a little kid and I was into paintballing, I remember people on internet forums complaining about how aluminum blocks only cost a couple dollars, why are mfgs charging hundreds for an upper.

Now that I've graduated business school (USC) and have helped real world companies model and price out their products, I finally understand that it is silly to begin to even guess at how much it costs to produce a product.

Sure, we'd love to bash on KAC for charging what seems to be an astronomical $8K-11K (whichever is the correct number), but when you take into account the logistics of ramping up production to meet certain needs, maintaining the specs and everything else that goes with it, along with trying to sustain a certain margin, the costs add up rapidly.

You also have to factor in the cost of the trials, putting together a weapon and that, which needs to be recovered at a certain IRR.

Let's try to understand this a little further and in context, Remington quoted 11MM for their SASS trial package while KAC quoted $16.5MM. Seems like a big difference (unless you're a senator; then that's only a fraction of your staffing budget), until you take into consideration that <span style="font-weight: bold">Remington's submission had a 14% failure rate while KAC only had a 2.7%</span>.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Would you want a rifle that has a 5x greater failure rate so that uncle Sam can save a couple thousand dollars per rifle? </span>

This is not a "let's go to the range and shoot paper" piece of equipment here; <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">it is designed for the sole purpose of killing enemies and protecting our soldie</span>rs.</span>

Now, on the flip side, let's address everyone's beloved Larue/GAP/Noveske/LMT/Insert Brand Name Here rifle and why those were not chosen. Among other things, there's a capital equipment cost which creates a barrier to entry. Mr. Larue and his handful of machines would need a significant investment in PP&E to get up to speed with what the military needs. Everyday there are companies across the nation that turn down large jobs because they are not capable of performing the job at or below the same cost they can do a small job at (on a per unit basis).

It is generally not cost feasible for a small company to take on special projects that require significant investments in capital equipment. That equipment will most likely be left sitting idle at the end of the contract, which means that the company has to recover the ENTIRE cost of the equipment during the life of the contract, unless they can magically increase on-going business demand to create a need for that equipment.

This is mostly a very haphazard analysis of what is going on, when I have more time over the weekend (if this continues), I can run calculations explaining what I said above. I would need input on costs of CNC machines, lathes and other types of equipment, as well as the productivity of such equipment (units per day) and other processes that might be involved.

 

[poison123]

Re: M110 replacement?

Oh shit rchman...you gone and done it now. Pack Larue is going to feast upon your bones tonight.

 

[rogue308]

Re: M110 replacement?

I wanted to leave this thread alone but I just can't resist. TONS of misinformation floating around here.

I have around 2,500 rounds through my M110. Over 3 years and 2 deployments mine has not failed me. I will be the first to tell you the glass and can sucks. Going from my personal rifles with Premiers etc showing up to work and shooting the 10x leupy is a nightmare. Not to mention having to remember it's a MIL/MOA scope. I have played around with other .30 cal cans and I've never seen one louder than the KAC. The rifle is a pain in the ass to clean. Especially suppressed. I shot 250 rds through it one day and it took a can of WD-40 and 3 guys to get the damn can off. Tetra Grease on the QD mount from now on. Accuracy hovers around 1 MOA but never over on mine.

That was the bad. I have plenty more good to say about it. We do not use them as shooter rifles on the teams. The reason I love the M110 is because we compliment our bolt guns with them. Shooter takes a shot, spotter gets to follow up our engage other targets. I don't know about you guys but 5+1 in the M24 takes about the same time as it does for me to dump a 20 rd mag of well aimed shots (and I practice fast bolt manipulation every time I shoot). For first round hits out to 600 meters I feel 100% confident the M110 will get the job done, and that's all I ask of it. I wish we had these capabilites of getting more rifles on target my first deployment.

I got a chance to borrow an OBR because I was impressed how they ran at the Int'l Sniper Comp. Really nice rifle, don't have many bad things to say about it. The accuracy difference I saw at 600 yds though was less than 1/4 MOA between it and my KAC. Maybe I just got lucky and got one of the good ones. I think 99% of the time it's the shooter. Guys get down and try to shoot these things like bolt guns and you can't do that. I think the expression "you can ride a bolt gun but have to drive a gas gun" puts it best. USASS is getting ready to change their course to where you shoot the M110 before the M24 because it is a harder platform to shoot. I think it's a smart move.

As far as cost...you guys wouldn't believe what comes in the coffin case with the rifle. That's why it's called a "deployment kit". Everything from rifle, can, scope, cleaning supplies, torque wrench, KAC 10 and 20 rd mags, TIS sling and mag pouches etc. Go do all that with an OBR and get back to me with a price...

Sorry this is a long post. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I think most on this thread so far just jump on the band wagon and need to STFU. I would love to know how many of the posters have trigger time behind an M110.

 

[rogue308]

Re: M110 replacement?

By the way if KAC is listening.

I shot the new leupy on a XM2010. A little over kill for the 110 but it is leaps and bounds better than the MK4 on there now. I would take it in a heart beat. Horus reticle was great as well.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: M110 replacement?

M110 SASS Rifle w/ 20 BBL
Leupold 3.5-10x40
2 Stage Match Trigger
1 Piece 30mm Scope MOunt
4 20 RND Magazines
4 10 RND Magazines
2 20 RND single pocket mag pouches
1 20 RND double mag pouch
2 10 RND Mag pouches
600 meter rear folding sight
BR-LM Bipod
Bipod Rail Adapter
System Case
Nylon cuff sling with swivels attached
Soft Scope case
Scope Cover
Drag Bag
MK11 Cleaning Kit
Flex Rod Pocket Cleaning Kit
Bore Rod Guide for Dewey Rod
Adapter for Dewey Rod
Brass Jag for Dewey Rod
SASS M110 Sound Suppressor
Hard Scope and Kit Case
Thandle torque wrench
1/2" combination wrench
Scope maintenance kit
Spare parts kit
Sling stud and Nut assembly
Firing data book
Operators Manual

Some people need to stop spouting shit out thier mouth hole if they don't know how pricing on these kinds of full deployment kits work.

Before KAC ever turned out unit #1, they had to eat the cost of a testing unit or 5, several dog and pony shows for procurement, a testing team, a few generals, fly thier sales people and engineers all over creation, put them on site for meetings and production discussions, design reviews.

Then they had to build a kit with redundant parts, sourcing stuff they don't make from a host of suppliers who each want THEIR own profit margins...

Then do unit tests and plan for ongoing support costs because try as you might there will be some that slip through QC and KAC will be on the hook to quickly diagnose and fix/replace.

Plus, like it or not, KAC or anyone else need reasonable economic incentive to do this kind of work. I'm betting that the NET profit margins on the contract actually ended up being a lot slimmer than most people here think EVEN if we make very generous assumptions of as much as 40% gross margin per unit.

 

[rogue308]

Re: M110 replacement?

I wonder if they're fielding the new ones with drag bags. I for damn sure didn't get one with the kit. Bastards.

 

[poison123]

Re: M110 replacement?

Pretty sure thats a eagle drag bag, and that one has been discontinued.

 

[rchman]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Some people need to stop spouting shit out thier mouth hole if they don't know how pricing on these kinds of full deployment kits work.

</div></div>

I second that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Plus, like it or not, KAC or anyone else need reasonable economic incentive to do this kind of work. I'm betting that the NET profit margins on the contract actually ended up being a lot slimmer than most people here think EVEN if we make very generous assumptions of as much as 40% gross margin per unit.

</div></div>

To further illustrate this point, Ruger and the Freedom group are sitting at 32.9% and 25.2% gross profit margins, respectively, which are standard for manufacturers. KAC, being a much smaller company, carries a higher unsystematic risk (justifying a higher rate of return), would require even higher margins based on financial theory.

From that gross profit margin, they still have to cover corporate overhead, R&D (non amortized portion - although accounting rules have changed a bit on this over the past few years) and other I/S components including a profit.

Business owners will understand this, based on personal experience...internet mud slingers probably won't.

 

[OverWatch]

Re: M110 replacement?

Interesting post.. Just to set the record straight, the original intent of the M110 was not to replace the M24 it was to support it. Just like with many things a "project" begins at user level and goes up the chain and the user loses the ablility to effect the final product. In the case of the M110 that is exactly what happened. Point and case why the M110 is tan, Maj. ********, from *** ***** *******, thought that is what the sniper community wanted but forgot to double check. At least that is what I "heard". Maybe the biggest reasons the OBR was not considered for the replacement rifle is that it was not ready for production when the requirement brief was sent out.

OW

 

[Tactical]

Re: M110 replacement?

Kevin, I love the M110. Can not wait until I get my very own. Hopefully before the DOJ outlaws every semi auto in Ca?

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

Oddball, looking at your list, minus the Leupold, the most expensive things on their are all produced by KAC. $125 a piece for a magazine??? That's $1,000 in magazines if they are charging anything close to retail (I have to go by retail because I do not have a price break down as given to the government, nor do I have the time to file for a freedom of information release). And their mags suck!! I had to wrap the bottom of all ten of mine in duck tape to keep the bottom end from sliding off. Luckily, we have switched to Pmags which we are getting at $15.00 per mag; that's $110 less for a superior product. Still think that their are no inflated prices?

The truth is that KAC will most likely be awarded the contract. They are already well established in the Government system, and anyone who has ever written a government contract knows how to write it so they can disqualify all other bidders and get exactly what they want.

Fortunately for KAC they have the government to keep buying their products at overinflated prices otherwise they would have to find ways to cut costs in order be competitive on the commercial market like all the other manufacturers have done.

...And according to Kevin, thank goodness we have KAC otherwise all this 118LR we have would go to waste because "your not going to find a gun that can withstand the M118LR shooting schedule..."

 

[poison123]

Re: M110 replacement?

Dude you taking being a Hater to another level.

 

[rchman]

Re: M110 replacement?

Jakhamr:

Retail prices do not apply here. <span style="font-weight: bold">Here's a brief economics lesson:</span>

Company A is producing near capacity (KAC in this example) to fill a contract. For the purpose of this example, let's assume they could produce 10,000 widgets a year with their current equipment and let's say that 9,000 widgets are being allocated to Customer A(i.e. the military).

So, said company has the capacity for 1,000 extra widgets a year; however, demand outside of Customer A is 5,000 units. Since Company A can only meet 1/5th of the demand, what do they do?

They increase their price to a point where it is close to what only 1,000 people are willing to pay (the point at which capacity equals demand at a certain willingness to pay). So, that is why you see Company A (KAC) charging >$100 for a magazine.

D is the demand curve while S is the supply curve. Since the supply curve is limited to 1,000 units, the price is determined by the quantity available (i.e. Q1). Go up the graph and find where it intersects with the demand curve...there is your price.

In KAC's case, quantity is way to the left(due to limitations - capacity or artificial)and thus, price is way up high.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude you taking being a Hater to another level.</div></div>

It's not being a hater, it is just being fed up. I give KAC credit for having a reliable platform, as I stated mine has never had a major malfunction, and the action does feel very smooth compared to my AR10 platform.

You guys can show me all the smoke and mirrors you want, even throw in a bunch of extra crap, but I still feel at the end of the day their are equal if not better platforms out their that can be had for much less.

I hope that for the sake of all our troops that will be deploying with the 110s replacement, that their is an actual fair T&E phase and that the contract is awarded to the best performing platform, and if that happens to be KAC, then so be it.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: M110 replacement?

That "smoke, mirrors, and extra crap" is what we call "business". Its understanding the economics of how to make money doing something for a living.

I agree there are other platforms out there that are equal or better. No doubt about it.

But it remains that there are only a few suppliers who will meet all of the demands of government contracting and... frankly... are willing to put up with the shit.

The government is not an easy customer. Have you ever done direct contracting? Materials contracting has all kinds of test and eval requirements. You have to sink all kinds of money up front to develop and demo the product. THEN you have to give the government pricing equal to or beter than the lowest market price on offer!

(Which by the way can also sometimes explain why military delivered equipment is expensive as hell on the civilian market. If they offer it to you for cheaper even though thier R&D costs were covered in the government order, the government can come back and cry foul because they paid more. The law doesnt care that it cost a vendor millions in R&D and sales and T&E costs that had to be spread into the government unit cost before the development-paid-for units could be offered at a lower price. All it cares is that within X timeframe, you sold the same part for Y less than you charged the government in the initial order. Thus to keep from having to give money back to the government, sometimes prices on the civilian markets still have a seemingly "artificially" high MAP.)

And thats AFTER you prove you can meet the volume and support demands that some staff major doing a tour in a procurement office somewhere has decided models what the vendor should expect - whether that is based on reality or not - etc etc etc.


I agree with your final point. At the end of the day, our troops should ahve the best thing. I think where you and I differ, is that I realize to a certain degree that even organizations like GAP who have no-doubt top-notch, high-quality product cant produce and support on the scale the army needs.

KAC can and did and if they are the best product who was WILLING AND ABLE to do that, then thats the best option -- even if we shooter enthusiasts know that all-up there are options out there we prefer more on the weekend or in smaller-scale organizational buys.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: M110 replacement?

If you guys are really getting this worked up over the cost to the Govt that they pay for a KAC, you need to open your eyes to the outside world......needless spending happens everyday that are far worse than the KAC rifle......how bout a whole Carrier Group for 1 week for a family vacation??????????

 

[jbgleason]

Re: M110 replacement?

OK. Last try here. Does anyone know what the latest on the solicitation, regardless of the cost, is? I missed the small arms briefing at SOFIC and know that this was discussed. As I stated in the original post, it appears that they are looking to either upgrade or replace the current M110. And, please, no more business school graphs. Please, please, please, I got enough of that in my MBA classes and I almost puked on my keyboard when that thing popped up... HaHa.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: M110 replacement?

JB, according to PROCNET no related contract has been awarded and the solicitation for companies closed in april.

Here you can see the interested vendors list:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&...mp;tabmode=list

Pretty much anything beyond that is not in the public view. Remember that it was just a sources sought survey. Not an RFP.