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M14 craving - wanting to build the ultimate sub-moa M14.

T

The_New_Sniper

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Minuteman
Feb 6, 2014
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NJ
I have some stupid on and off relationship with the M14. It just looks beautiful, simplicity in its design. I decided to get over it and actually buy one custom made with sub-moa accuracy (for long range shooting).

I have looked into a lot of details, but there aren't that many people who have good info on building one sub-moa. I have looked into LRB arms, but they're pretty pricey ($4,400, even though I have quite a bit of money to spend, is something I would not rather pay).

I do want it custom built, but I have no idea where to start. Can anyone with some experience with this weapon system help me out? Assume I have a $5,000 budget max for the gun itself.

If anyone could suggest builders that can provide sub-moa M14s (or M1As) would be appreciated.

-Dan
 
I'd talk to Isaac Mccaskil at Cassatt Gunworks. Former 2112 and worked RTE, he knows the 14. I'd check out the m14 forum, there's a few smiths over there that can build a hammer.
 
DEA7E160-4735-4930-BF55-464669A4E246-228-000003A06758152E_zps2879ce72.jpg
 
eodcam said:
I'd talk to Isaac Mccaskil at Cassatt Gunworks. Former 2112 and worked RTE, he knows the 14. I'd check out the m14 forum, there's a few smiths over there that can build a hammer.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I checked out the M14 forums, didn't make an account yet.

mescalito said:
Art Luppino
Click to expand...

Will look into, thank you.
BCP said:
You know that you're asking for a unicorn, right? Anyways I would say buy this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=897649&highlight=m1a

New Krieger barrel, mcmillan stock, scope mount, front rail for bipod. You cannot ask for a better m14 style rifle than that.
Click to expand...

Looking into it, thanks for the link.
 
The_New_Sniper said:
That's one pretty M14 DMR you got there. What kind of scope is on it?
Click to expand...

That looks like a nightforce 5.-22

The stock is a mcmillan, barrel I bet krieger, and a front rail for bipod...just like that rifle I linked....I honestly don't know why that rifle is still for sale other than the fact that Obamanomics have made us all fukn broke.....
 
I read this and an image of someone taking money and lighting it on fire popped in my head. OP you seem to be aware that this is going to be expensive and unless you are in love with the m14 I strongly suggest you take some time to think it over but it's your money
 
OP,

You might want to consider a Springfield Armory Super Match. The Super Match is authorized/compliant with NRA LR Service Rifle Competition rules. Shooting in this sort of competition will promote learning about everything important to good shooting. I would suggest this factory built rifle for many reasons, the first and foremost is you do not now have the capability to appraise your rifle's accuracy. With the Springfield Armory product, you are likely to get a satisfactory rifle, one which will allow you to recognize that when the two firing tasks are executed properly you will indeed hit where aimed. Getting a custom rifle right now might be a problem, first because if it is broken you will not know it; and second, if it's built as well as an M14 can be built, you will not appreciate it. Learning how to shoot the factory match conditioned rifle is therefore a good solution. If you ever learn enough about good shooting to discover that your rifle is limiting results you can have it rebuilt.
 
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Unless Art, Gus or J have gone senile in their old age i doubt they will build a defective weapon. It will cost him out the ass though and i doubt anything he buys will shoot any better than the rifle i linked.
 
Start with a Springfield M1A National Match, like below. Troy Industries stock. This gun is right at 1 MOA with FGGM and would probably do better with load development. It was in a custom glass bedded walnut stock I built, shown on bottom, and that was sub moa.



 
those super accurate M1A are on the shlef between the unicorn penis powder and the hen's teeth, get an AR if you want accuracy that last an an M1A to look at, it'll be cheaper in the long run.
cheers.
 
Yeah I wouldn't spend more than about 2000 on one and it would have be bedded supermatch, nice barrel, nice stock etc.

People who talk 3500, 4000+ I would rather go buy an LMT MWS for 2400 and then find a deal on a used M1A. Best of both worlds.
 
Or even $1,700ish on a Sig716 and get right at MOA or possibly even under. Or spend the same on an M1A and get maybe 3-5 MOA.
 
I can vouch for the super match from Springfield. I have one built by Glen Nelson, and it is a very accurate rifle (1-1.5 MOA consistently). Nobody has mentioned a Springfield White Feather yet. It is one step above a super match.
 
The sub-moa fraternity is a very small group.
(pun intended)
 
Call LRB up and get a M25 barreled action built, call J. Allen and get a JAE-100, (I hear waits on both products are about 6-12 months so order at the same time) and then have John Wolfe or Art Luppino put it together for you and tune it.

Hit up m14forum.com as well. Both of those guys are regulars over there and tbh the community is fantastic.

Not saying a sub MOA M14 is impossible but you're really going to have to work for it.
 
I've had a couple expensive M1As over the years; first was a rear lugged, bedded, and torque screwed Fulton Peerless with a heavy krieger barrel and all USGI components. For the next one I spent a ton of money having Ted Brown build a rear lugged LRB M25 with all TRW USGI parts.

I was happy with both of the rifles until I assembled an AR10. The AR10 I assembled myself using an inexpensive on-sale 24" upper from Armalite outshot both of them for less than 1/2 the price of the cheapest M1A. The GAP10 and JP LRP-07 I now own only widened the accuracy gap-- not to mention the easier cleaning and scope mounting the AR platform offers compared to the M1A.

FYI.... both of my M1As would cost about $4500+/- to build today-- and having put a lot of rounds downrange with each I can state with certainty that neither would meet your sub-MOA requirement. Again, be prepared to spend a lot of money chasing sub-MOA with an M1A but also be prepared for disappointment when the dollars spent don't match the group sizes produced. I'm much happier knocking over steel with the M1As than putting groups on paper. :D

bj1126 said:
call J. Allen and get a JAE-100, (I hear waits on both products are about 6-12 months so order at the same time) and then have John Wolfe or Art Luppino put it together for you and tune it.
Click to expand...

6-12 months? Great! Please call JAE for me and tell them to hurry up, I'm currently on month 31 of the quoted 6-9 month wait for my JAE Gen 3. My Ted Brown M25 build has been sitting in the safe now without a stock for almost two years since I sold the Gen 1 JAE.
 
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Just buy a whitefeather springfield they usally shoot .6-.8 at 100 with fgmm. They have fair resell that you might not get with a custom
 
31 months for a JAE stock talk about patience lol....

Mine is like lenyos only with a medium barrel and leupold 10x scope so a couple pounds lighter and still feels like a boat anchor if I'm hiking around with it slung. Taking the platform any farther than that is kind of silly. The cost to performance curve is not in your favor and after dumping 4000+ into one it still won't keep up with a factory savage or remington.

Let the M1A be the 2MOA battle rifle that it wants to be and pour your money into something else for 'sub moa' long distance blah blah shooter stuff....you and your wallet will both be happier............
 
BCP said:
31 months for a JAE stock talk about patience lol....

Let the M1A be the 2MOA battle rifle that it wants to be and pour your money into something else for 'sub moa' long distance blah blah shooter stuff....you and your wallet will both be happier............
Click to expand...

True, you'll save yourself lots of money and frustration if you don't try to turn the M1A into something it's not-- but it usually takes someone one or two builds until they reach that conclusion on their own and realize that everyone they asked before starting the build was right. That's how it worked with me anyways... but I won't stop the OP from trying to achieve the dream of a consistent "all day long sub-MOA M1A." :)

Regarding the JAE... yeah, 31 months is a long wait. However during that time I've picked up both a GAP-10 and a JP LRP-07 and honestly haven't missed the M25 at all. After selling the Gen 1 JAE about 2 years ago I put the action in the back of the safe and kind of forgot about it. To add further insult the GAP10 and JP were cheaper than the M25 build and both easily outshoot it by a wide margin. Honestly, once the JAE Gen 3 comes in I may take the M25 to the range once just to test it and then sell the thing-- when I want to shoot a semi auto I can't see myself passing over the GAP10 or JP to grab the M25 out of the safe. It's a nice rifle for sure and Ted did very nice work but when it comes down to it the GAP10 & JP do everything better IMO. The only real advantage to the M25 is being in California the M25 is considered a "featureless" build and I can use my old 20 round mags with it unlike my GAP10 & JP which are stuck with 10 round mags and a bullet button.
 
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Cali laws were the driving for behind my getting an M1A as well. I got a used mcmillan, unitized the gas cylinder, all the work done by myself. Now that I am all done I realize that I'm an idiot and probably should have left it alone but it does look cool...I can only imagine the feeling you get when you open the safe and look at that LRB action sitting there...
 
It is a little irritating to see it just sitting there. Lisa called me about 3 weeks ago and said my stock was going into paint and should be shipping in 3-4 weeks and asked for the balance due. Coming up on 4 weeks since the phone call and haven't seen a shipping notice yet.

I can't knock their quality (their stocks are impeccably made) but they really need to either state realistic delivery times or add some significant production capacity to get the long lead times down to something more reasonable. To paraphrase someone on the M14forum, "I could have made 3 kids in the time it took JAE to make my stock." ;)

Scoping an M1A is a big exercise in frustration IMO as optics all too easily show the limitations of the platform especially if you have very high expectations of accuracy. I am considering selling the JAE (which is really intended for optics) and bedding the M25 into a NM-style McMillan and just going back to the NM iron sights. A couple of times a year I get an itch to go bang steel with iron sights and I no longer have a rifle for that-- I sold my Fulton Peerless a while back which was in a beautiful NM walnut stock with NM iron sights. I really had fun with the Peerless with irons at the steel range. When I had Ted build the M25 I used a rear lugged receiver... the rear lug doesn't do anything in the JAE but I knew that if I ever chose to restock the gun in a McMillan or similar in the future I wanted a rear lug & torque screw for stability and bedding longevity.
 
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I like the scope I have on mine. 10x, light weight, big eyebox, and a BDC knob that matches up pretty close to the handloads I'm using right now. But yes "shows the limitations" is exactly how it is with a scoped m14 type. Shitty cheekweld, 2" groups, wandering point of impact. When I shoot mine I rarely shoot for groups because even when it does well I am still pissed off.
 
I have a sub moa 14, barreled action was done by Ted brown, was bedded and toyed with by art luppino.

It's not sub moa with just any ammo-I have to hand load for it and I have yet to find a consistent higher velocity loaf that shoots as well as the good load.

The rifle seems to like 2550 fps w 168 bullets and faster powders

Seen several other sub moa 14s, usually in the hands of people who shoot the 14 regularly.

Mine is not scoped
yqerutu4.jpg


This was after being pulled out of the stock after 1yr/2k rounds. Paster was a pair of sighters.

This rifle was built using the crappiest cmp parts kit I had of 5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Have you posted int he 1.5moa challenge thread neltus?

I believe one of the guys in the 1.5MOA challenge thread on m14forum managed .8MOA average with a springfield m21 and federal gold medal match. The question is do you really want to take the platform that far? The springfield m21 model in that big wood stock weighs something like 15lbs unloaded unscoped. Scoped, loaded out, you are talking a near 20lb rifle.
 
neiltus said:
I have a sub moa 14, barreled action was done by Ted brown, was bedded and toyed with by art luppino.

It's not sub moa with just any ammo-I have to hand load for it and I have yet to find a consistent higher velocity loaf that shoots as well as the good load.

The rifle seems to like 2550 fps w 168 bullets and faster powders

Seen several other sub moa 14s, usually in the hands of people who shoot the 14 regularly.

Mine is not scoped


This was after being pulled out of the stock after 1yr/2k rounds. Paster was a pair of sighters.

This rifle was built using the crappiest cmp parts kit I had of 5.
Click to expand...

That's a keeper.

My Fulton Peerless would produce similar groups and usually hover right around 1-1.2 MOA for several 5 shot groups with the NM iron sights at 100Y. Sometimes it would dip into the .8-.9 range but averaging out all the days it I could count on it being a solid 1.0-1.2 MOA rifle.

The rifle's favorite load was very similar to yours, 168 sierras over H4895 at about 2560. 4064 grouped well too.

The Fulton was more consistent and grouped better than my Ted Brown built M25 but I attribute a lot of the inconsistency the M25 exhibited to the stock. The Gen 1 JAE the rifle was originally in didn't even touch the front ferrule at the gas cylinder and the POI would wander quite a bit from lack of ferrule tension. I'm hoping the Gen 3 with the adjustable barrel tensioner makes it more consistent-- if it settles in about 1.0-1.2 MOA like the Fulton I'd be happy.

Ted did tell me more than once that if I wanted best accuracy out of the rifle to bed it into a McMillan, but I had to have the JAE because it "looked cool"... LOL. Live and learn. Didn't learn too well obviously since I have a JAE Gen 3 on order. ;)
 
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BCP-I am on M14forum as well under the same screen name. I am going to try for the challenge, but have not been to the range in a couple weeks without 40mph gusts-not even going to attempt that in messy winds.

I have another rifle-springfield loaded, 1989 rifle, with a TRW barrel on it. The barrel is in decent shape, but it does not shoot anything like my other rifle. Have a Wolfe Medium Weight in route to go on that rifle when I visit Mr. Luppino at the end of the month.

Kiba-I have tried both versions of 4895 in the rifle and they don't work as well as what I am using, they are good, but not great. Lots of people have great results with that powder though.

Here is where the rifle was shooting before pulling it out of the stock...

CA644F1F-D5CC-45E7-A612-56CB8EFD9400-587-000000E334C16E02_zps28e63595.jpg

Here is the rifle that the targets are off of during a visit to Bandera...

shot2of3_zps09dbfb89.jpg

The 21 that is getting a new barrel...scope is no longer on there.

123A6F85-D05E-4568-AE7A-30E4759DBE63-1915-000001A57F21886F_zps244dbd35.jpg
 
I've seen a guy on M14 Forum with a JAE stock in an LRB M25 that has 3 shots at 100 yards that can fit under a dime. Might have been a one time thing but it was impressive none the less. Of course he had almost $6k into the gun alone and I hate to think how many hours tuning it and working up the load he used.
 
buffalowinter said:
Start with a Springfield M1A National Match, like below. Troy Industries stock. This gun is right at 1 MOA with FGGM and would probably do better with load development. It was in a custom glass bedded walnut stock I built, shown on bottom, and that was sub moa.



Click to expand...

How do you like the Troy setup? How hard was it to put your rifle in it? I am seriously considering a second m1a set up like yours. Obama's policies haven't made everyone poor.
 
Sgt.Henry said:
No matter what a stripper tells you. There's no sex in the champaign room.
Click to expand...

This.

You can take one of these rifles, throw a couple thousand dollars' at it and not get what you want. If you are lucky it will hold an average of 1.5MOA for a string. That is why I think it's insane to spend big money on an M1A. I see guys selling national match M1As used online for 1500-1700 dollars that is all the M1A you'll ever need. Good iron sights, medium barrel 11 twist, epoxy bedded in a walnut stock. M1A perfection.

If you want a gas gun to invest money in, especially if you really plan on shooting it a lot, get a GOOD 308 AR with a GOOD scope.
 
I have a Supermatch out of the box that will do want you want, most will, that would be the cheapest route.

My latest I just received this week, just finished mounting the optics.
LRB M25, Kreiger heavy contour 1-10 twist, all NOS TRW trigger group, oprod, bolt, everything else Sadlak or USGI. Bobro bidpod, pillar bedded stock. NF ATACR MOAR.

 
The Troy stock wins lots of "cool points". On the plus side, it is very well made and finished. It is not terribly expensive if you shop around, cheaper than a Sage. You can mount a collapsible buttstock buffer tube and any AR15 collapsible stock can be put on it...or a rifle tube with any AR15 rifle stock. Any AR pistol grip will work. It is not hard to put on but "drop in" is probably an overstatement. There are four set screws that raise or lower the trigger group and determine how much pressure the trigger group "clamps" with to the action...this is a "trial and error" procedure. The top part of the Troy chassis fits over the top of the action...I had to do some filing on the upper part of the chassis to allow it to fit over the action. The front sight must be removed to fit the upper chassis. I have heard of some improvement in accuracy from installing the chassis...mine probably opened up a bit...but it was in a custom glassed stock beforehand and was shooting sub moa. It opened up to about 1moa using FGGM. FGGM is my "go to" ammo but is probably not optimal for the M1A...in other words, I can probably get back to sub moa if I tried. I'm like the original poster in that I just wanted an M1A. The M1A is disappointing for pure precision shooting...but it is an M1A...a piece of history...and with a Troy stock it's flat out wicked awesome super bad-ass.
 
BCP said:
Have you posted int he 1.5moa challenge thread neltus?
I believe one of the guys in the 1.5MOA challenge thread on m14forum managed .8MOA average with a springfield m21 and federal gold medal match. The question is do you really want to take the platform that far? The springfield m21 model in that big wood stock weighs something like 15lbs unloaded unscoped. Scoped, loaded out, you are talking a near 20lb rifle.
Click to expand...

I'm the other guy who made the boards over on the 1.5 MOA challenge with all 4 groups under 1.5 MOA. I also put my M21 (heavy Bushie scope, sling, magazine w/heavy adjustable walnut stock = 15.2 lbs.) on the boards here on the Hide in the 300 yard semi-auto shootout, just barely averaging under MOA - the best I've done. Even so, I'd never call my rifle sub-MOA. I regularly shoot sub MOA groups - BUT never 3 in a row yet. Most will tell you that the M14/M1A platform becomes very twitchy as the barrel heats up during a couple of strings. Sometimes it influences POI, but most often affects groups size. Figuring out when that's happening and when it's not is always an issue. Interesting to note that out of a buttload of great shooters, the only 4 sub MOA semi-auto averages for .308 here on the Hide's FOUR 100 yard shootouts were from a GAP 10 and 2 other AR platforms. How come no M14/M1As?

That should tell you how difficult it is to find a real sub MOA semi in .308, much less a "sub-MOA" M14/M1A battle rifle. Not saying it can't happen. I guess somewhere there's an M14/M1A that will out shoot a GAP 10. I just don't agree that they are as abundant as some say. Expect to spend a lot of dough, time, experimenting, and training on the platform. That said, I love shooting my M21. It's a great rifle that is a consistent shooter out to the farthest I've taken it (600 yards). True "on demand" 5 shot groups are around the 1.5 MOA average - give or take a pinch.
 
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Smcarroll said:
Wicked awesome super bad ass. Check. I want to scope a m1a and really don't want to molest my national match.
Click to expand...

Get a Bassett mount.
Scope on / scope off and nothing to molest parts wise ( to add or remove ).





 
buffalowinter said:
The Troy stock wins lots of "cool points".
Click to expand...


The only down side of the Troy chassis is you loose the best iron sights ever placed on a service rifle.
A SAGE chassis allows the iron sights retention and use of the iron sights if that is a desired option.
 
bluto51 said:
I'm the other guy who made the boards over on the 1.5 MOA challenge with all 4 groups under 1.5 MOA.
Click to expand...

I am in there as well. Honestly I thought when I bought this rifle that I was gonna be the smart one and accurize it myself, that I was gonna get tight groups etc. Well a mcmillan stock, a unitized gas system, 2 different scope mounts, 3 scopes and 1500 rounds later I am still 1.5MOA on a good day, and 2MOA when I am sloppy.

That's not to say I don't like the platform. If I didn't like it I would have junked it for something else. It's just not that precise.
 
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