- Thread starter SkyScrapin
- Start date
As of each week for the past few weeks, we have been been validating the June delivery date. It's still holding accurate per Envision, though as with any delivery, let's assume end of June and be happy if they show up sooner.
Looking forward to getting these in our customers hands.
Looking forward to getting these in our customers hands.
So we're getting a few dozen of these MARS units each quarter. Call the first batch "end of q2" ... so the second will be "end of q3" etc. A few dozen in each batch.
Well the first batch is almost sold out, less than the fingers on one hand remain uncommitted. So if you want one before Sept (ETA for batch 02) then contact @SkyScrapin or myself ASAP !!
strictlyoffensivekit.com
Well the first batch is almost sold out, less than the fingers on one hand remain uncommitted. So if you want one before Sept (ETA for batch 02) then contact @SkyScrapin or myself ASAP !!
Envision Technology
The worlds most trusted source for your night vision and thermal needs.
strictlyoffensivekit.com I reject this reality and would like mine hand-delivered on or before 1 AM on the 1st.
A quantity are going out Monday.
We are shipping weekly now.
We are shipping weekly now.
I just got mine; I need to get some time behind it.
*Disregard the last remark, as the beam does seem to be around 1mil. I must have been shaking or something on the first test. I will test some more and let you all know. Interestingly enough, the unit seems unable to pull wind in from a kestrel. That might be good, as most ballistic calculators reference wind via DOF, which works OK until you have an RF hooked and change your target direction.
*Disregard the last remark, as the beam does seem to be around 1mil. I must have been shaking or something on the first test. I will test some more and let you all know. Interestingly enough, the unit seems unable to pull wind in from a kestrel. That might be good, as most ballistic calculators reference wind via DOF, which works OK until you have an RF hooked and change your target direction.
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I got my unit today, and it does not pull wind information from a Kestrel, and I don't see where it says it does in the manual. So far, the unit can pull only the essential environment data from the Kestrel (which it can do via internal sensors) and upload guns. Maybe I'm missing something straightforward. When set to "live Kestel", it will pull the environment data in real-time; if you hit lock on the Kestrel, it will not update until you click unlock. The wind never changes, though. One issue with the Kestrel is the "wind direction" is referenced via DOF, not North, so this can cause some confusion on uploads unless you have DOF set to North.
Newest update, I've been unable to get the unit to update the wind based on DOF.
I get the same hold regardless of DOF.
I get the same hold regardless of DOF.
Does a raptar update windage based upon DOF?
I've never used one. I know the Kestrel will do it with a handheld laser, although a little funky in how it calculates it.
I’m curious to hear the answer to this. Any Raptar users that can chime in on DoF wind updates?
Without it, the whole system seems pointless, I'd rather have it feed range to the Kestrel and be a remote display. Or at least have the option
If anyone wants to know the level of support you will get after buying a 10k MARS from Envision-Tek. It's nonexistent, after three days they can't even acknowledge an email about the basic functionality of the unit.
Sounds similar to my eotech clip irlr thermal experience. I am hoping to run these two units in tandem.
Yes, the Mil version has an IR pointer and flood. It's in the manual.
Do you expect it to feed the range data to the Clip?
Is the wind changing DOF something that was promised by by the manufacturer, or something that you just hoped you would find within the unit as an unadvertised bonus?
No, I'll just read my holds off the mars display and use my reticle in the darkness, dial in daylight.
Something the vendor said worked earlier in this thread and one of the key reasons I purchased it
Thanks fellas. I'll be following to see how the vendor and manufacturer resolve this.
I did receive confirmation from Envision that the beam is, in fact, elliptical and taller than it is wide. Wind cannot be pulled from a Kestrel, and wind input is based on DOF. So a 5MPH wind is always "from the right, regardless of where the rifle is pointed.
This is functioning as expected so I don't see them doing anything to improve its functionality for match shooters.
This is functioning as expected so I don't see them doing anything to improve its functionality for match shooters.
I going to sleep on it over the weekend, but I think this unit is going back. To make the dope useful, you would need to turn off the aerodynamic jump and spindrift. Then calculate the angle changes on the fly.
If shooting a .308 @ 700 yards in a 15MPH wind, at best, it would result in a .2 mil elevation error and .25 mil wind error. This might be OK for MOA of bad guy, inside 500, or large game shots. Certainly not competitive in a field match.
It seems like an easy step in the right direction is to allow wind inputs based on azimuth and calculate the crosswind value based on DOF. That would at least allow crosswind value, jump, and spindrift to be part of the calc, without needing to pull from the kestrel.
If shooting a .308 @ 700 yards in a 15MPH wind, at best, it would result in a .2 mil elevation error and .25 mil wind error. This might be OK for MOA of bad guy, inside 500, or large game shots. Certainly not competitive in a field match.
It seems like an easy step in the right direction is to allow wind inputs based on azimuth and calculate the crosswind value based on DOF. That would at least allow crosswind value, jump, and spindrift to be part of the calc, without needing to pull from the kestrel.
I think you're overthinking it a bit for a field match stage. While the feature might be nice to adjust for DoF, I don't know of any of the others doing it in that regard either (Wilcox, L3, RPAL). Even if it would update based on DoF, the lasers are not easy to update for velocity/direction changes that are still the basis for a DoF induced wind adjustment. Basically, working the wind in a dynamic, multi-direction engagement is nearly impossible to get hyper-accurate via the laser in a short amount of time with any of them.
Generally speaking, I like to set up a fixed number like 4-5 mph from a full value left or right, and make adjustments based on that base number. If I'm changing directions, I'm factoring the wind change as I go, also modifying my wind based on previous shots.
Generally speaking, I like to set up a fixed number like 4-5 mph from a full value left or right, and make adjustments based on that base number. If I'm changing directions, I'm factoring the wind change as I go, also modifying my wind based on previous shots.
I will be testing targets for you all when I can move... My back is locked up currently, so it's on hold. My plan is to see if I can hit MOA steel set 25 feet in front of a berm in 200-yard increments. I might make a yote target with a fur blanket and see how it does with it too.
Of note, a shift of "boresight retention" of .5Mil is in spec and called out in the manual.
Of note, a shift of "boresight retention" of .5Mil is in spec and called out in the manual.
I might be but I have more than a few match wins under my belt and sent my 10k based on the feature working as listed. If it was posted, it does not pull wind from a kestrel or update crosswind value based on DOF, I would not be disappointed. I don't want people dropping 10K for advertised features that are not intended to work. I realize for some people, 10k is nothing, but for others, spending 10k on something is a huge investment, and we should have products accurately represented.
Another option for match shooters would be to send the range data to a kestrel.
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Shawn,
As I've never used a Wilcox MRF, reading the manual, wind streaming is supported and "stream ballistics" directly from a Kestrel, too. Are you saying that the manual is wrong?
As I've never used a Wilcox MRF, reading the manual, wind streaming is supported and "stream ballistics" directly from a Kestrel, too. Are you saying that the manual is wrong?
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The Raptar does pull live wind data from a Kestrel on a vane mount and update holds IIRC. I can’t recall if it calculates firing windage based on wind direction + DoF, but I can’t for the life of me understand why the MARS wouldn’t do that as a product developed a decade later with AB’s solver being completely capable of doing so. The Raptar does detect DoF as it supposedly should update the coriolis effect depending on your DoF.
"Diving Boards" - Solutions or More Problems (WM-LRF)?
"RAPTARs on MARS" - Weighing System Complexity vs. Workflow Simplification [Scope + Weapon Mounted LRF] vs [BinoLRF + RDS] (integrated azimuth/bearing to reduce glass (bino->scope) transition time?) ---------- RAPTARs et al. look cool for sure, adds weight but not too much - probably not...
www.snipershide.com compass/DoF isn't going to be very accurate regardless if its included or not (#5, #9 -JustSendIt); so your better off doing wind calls from an armband. Plus wind doesn't just blow straight, you have to make an educated guess to get the [mean angle]. so your wind values would be changing constantly- are you any better off guessing which value to use from a weather vane or from assessing with the eye?
But if you were sold on the DoF part and it doesn't work right or wasn't included (and its a 10k unit) then I hear ya.
But its still a state of the art unit.
Ranging performance test, I will say it's much easier to range with more power. Seemed to be better results than a Newcon 3500BT even though it has a better laser due to the power. The PLRF had a ranging advantage as it will feed you three ranges but no dope obviously.
Set up an 8” circle and 12” wide IPSC 25 yards in front of a berm.
400 yards
Mars-LC will range them all when set to BEST with 100% accuracy
600 yards
Only ranged the IPSC on BEST with a 100% fail on the circle target.
When set to FIRST, ranged all targets with 100% accuracy
700 yards
MARS could no longer range IPSC on BEST
When set to FIRST, ranged all targets with 100% accuracy
900 yards
Only ranged targets when set to FIRST, at 100% accuracy.
Seems to need roughly 2MOA for BEST to work on steel.
Some hunting real-life tests.
Left the unit on FIRST and ranged some deer at 750 with a 200-yard cresting hill in front of them The unit struggled as it returned the grass at 200 vs. the deer. Switching to BEST solved the issue but is not exactly something you can do quickly when hunting.
Set up an 8” circle and 12” wide IPSC 25 yards in front of a berm.
400 yards
Mars-LC will range them all when set to BEST with 100% accuracy
600 yards
Only ranged the IPSC on BEST with a 100% fail on the circle target.
When set to FIRST, ranged all targets with 100% accuracy
700 yards
MARS could no longer range IPSC on BEST
When set to FIRST, ranged all targets with 100% accuracy
900 yards
Only ranged targets when set to FIRST, at 100% accuracy.
Seems to need roughly 2MOA for BEST to work on steel.
Some hunting real-life tests.
Left the unit on FIRST and ranged some deer at 750 with a 200-yard cresting hill in front of them The unit struggled as it returned the grass at 200 vs. the deer. Switching to BEST solved the issue but is not exactly something you can do quickly when hunting.
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I think getting dof right is key for the unit to be fast and accurate. +\- 10 degrees is still more accurate than an armband and allows you to use jump and spin drift."Diving Boards" - Solutions or More Problems (WM-LRF)?
"RAPTARs on MARS" - Weighing System Complexity vs. Workflow Simplification [Scope + Weapon Mounted LRF] vs [BinoLRF + RDS] (integrated azimuth/bearing to reduce glass (bino->scope) transition time?) ---------- RAPTARs et al. look cool for sure, adds weight but not too much - probably not...
compass/DoF isn't going to be very accurate regardless if its included or not (#5, #9 -JustSendIt); so your better off doing wind calls from an armband. Plus wind doesn't just blow straight, you have to make an educated guess to get the [mean angle]. so your wind values would be changing constantly- are you any better off guessing which value to use from a weather vane or from assessing with the eye?
But if you were sold on the DoF part and it doesn't work right or wasn't included (and its a 10k unit) then I hear ya.
But its still a state of the art unit.
If you are shooting on a square range, no big deal, shooing 180 degree range really big deal, hunting at night with thermal bigger deal to me.
I had the same vision you are depicting. In the end I found it easier and quicker for me to:
turn off coriollis/AJ/SD in Kestrel and then DOPE rifle so its all incorporated already
work 1 target completely start to finish at a time insted of trying to do wind for every steel cuz it'll likely change by the time you get past T2
*how would you point the MARS in the direction of the wind btw (flagging ppl)? otherwise you are using a wind vane and thats cumbersome. plus then theres the whole spot wind issue - maybe all that info is exact...but its not a true representation of the bullets actual 'experience.'
So I made my own wind rose that I find easiest and most helpful starting point; my preference.
turn off coriollis/AJ/SD in Kestrel and then DOPE rifle so its all incorporated already
work 1 target completely start to finish at a time insted of trying to do wind for every steel cuz it'll likely change by the time you get past T2
*how would you point the MARS in the direction of the wind btw (flagging ppl)? otherwise you are using a wind vane and thats cumbersome. plus then theres the whole spot wind issue - maybe all that info is exact...but its not a true representation of the bullets actual 'experience.'
So I made my own wind rose that I find easiest and most helpful starting point; my preference.
But I will say Im not doing the same stuff for inclination/dec - have you tested the functionality of the MARS regarding incorporating inclination correctly when 'lazing' a certain target?
From a match point of view, the way I believe it should work. Let's say the wind is averaging 7MPH from the east. You would put in 7MPH @ 90 (azimuth). Then, when you walk up to the blind hunter stage. Your first target is north, the MARS should set the wind at a full 7MPH from the right. Say the next target is East, the MARS should say it is a 7MPH direct headwind. I don't expect it to be perfect, but for blind stages, it's a lot closer than other options. The same applies to hunting.
While I'm not the best shooter, I happen to be the 2019 PRS TAC champion with a few 308 finish in the top 20 overall. As well as a few open wins over the years. You can't do that without understanding the wind and DOPE.
I have not, plan to do a lot more testing. Just got in from calling coyotes, not much moving with this TX heat right now but will say that using FIRST with tall grass and brush does not work well. I do think it might be the way to go for a lot of matches.
I decided to keep the unit although currently, I believe the MRF is a better value based on the specs. Hopefully, Envision gets some better code in the future.
When I got my Raptar S 2 years ago, I emailed Kestrel on questions with the Raptar. For me, most of my shooting is stationary at a range. So I told them sometimes I’d like to use the Kestrel on a vane mount. So I asked what‘s the recommended procedure. And in doing so, it’s been effective with first round hits most of the times. From Kestrel support. Hopefully you’ll find some answers you looking for. And I’m sure the MARS would be the same.
From Kestrel Support team,
1) On the Kestrel, go to Wind... and press the center button. Then go to WD...and press the center button. Change WD Chg from Manual to "w/ DOF". Then back out to the main ballistics screen with gear button. This will make sure the WD changes with the DOF the Raptar provides.
2) Go down to Enviro and set to Live. Wave in the air for 15 to 30 seconds to capture the environment, then turn it to Lock. You can do this every 30 mins or so (or if conditions change drastically)
3) Pair the Kestrel to your Wilcox Raptar.
4) Go back to the main ballistic screen. Highlight Wind again and press the RED button. Wind should turn into W->. Put the unit in the weather vane. This will give you live wind updates.
5) Lase targets with the Raptar and the solutions will be updated in the rangefinder.
thank you for posting. That’s basically how it works with other range finders I’ve used.The MAarS does not sync wind at all and it’s not supported.
I still don’t understand how these dudes could put out a device that has fewer ballistic calculation capabilities than their main competition which is a decade old. 
Do I always use my Raptar with a vane-mounted Kestrel? Of course not. Do I want that ability if I drop $10k on a ballistic computer? Absofuckinglutely. I have found it helpful on days with switching winds or changing DOF when I am shooting from a static position. Just set the vane on an extension above my spotting scope and the Kestrel sits up there giving me wind holds every time I lase a target. It’s not perfect but it has improved my hit percentage especially in unfamiliar areas or shooting conditions where I may be less accurate with my wind reads.
Do I always use my Raptar with a vane-mounted Kestrel? Of course not. Do I want that ability if I drop $10k on a ballistic computer? Absofuckinglutely. I have found it helpful on days with switching winds or changing DOF when I am shooting from a static position. Just set the vane on an extension above my spotting scope and the Kestrel sits up there giving me wind holds every time I lase a target. It’s not perfect but it has improved my hit percentage especially in unfamiliar areas or shooting conditions where I may be less accurate with my wind reads.
Hmmm feel like I'm buying overhyped under delivering new tech that's already outdated by old tech? Such a strange feeling......
If anyone regrets being on the preorder list for these, hit me up (before you take delivery).
I’m a hunter and I hike. I will never setup a tripod for a kestrel with a wind vane and fiddle fart with getting everything perfect before a shot. I’m not downplaying anyone’s concerns, but I don’t believe they apply to most real world use cases. Definitely not mine.
I’m a hunter and I hike. I will never setup a tripod for a kestrel with a wind vane and fiddle fart with getting everything perfect before a shot. I’m not downplaying anyone’s concerns, but I don’t believe they apply to most real world use cases. Definitely not mine.
what would inspire you to buy the MARS over the MRFxe? The MRF has the same rangefinder, established brand, and is lighter. Plus if you add a fixed 5mph wind in the box and turn 180 degrees hunting it will update a left vs. right hold.
As a guy with a MARS in hand, I’m really curious. I didn’t know the MRF was sold to civilians and did not like the size of the Raptor.
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Wind Call - RAGS/10A
6mph Gun# values Multiply value most resembling actual wind speed and angle by range to target and you have your wind solution!
www.snipershide.com (#1 & #11 - I prefer #11 for ease of use)
Wind Call - RAGS/10A
6mph Gun# values Multiply value most resembling actual wind speed and angle by range to target and you have your wind solution!
(#1 & #11 - I prefer #11 for ease of use)
Out of curiosity, have you used this method to win a national-level PRS or Hunter match?
Wind at shooter is one of prob at least 5 different wind speed and vectors downrange between muzzle and target. Unfortunately it's the one that we can gauge most accurately without very expensive tech that reads wind flow down range. So thats what we gotta go off of. Now combine that data with experience of terrain affecting flow, a guy should be able to make a close call within +- 0.2 mil. That's all the electronics is gonna give you anyways, wind at shooter. Rarely a pure present condition entire way down range.
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