Muzzle velocity has a lot less to do with it than bullet efficiency.
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
- Start date
Anybody tried one of the Lage uppers on a M10 or M11? The dudes at InRangeTV said the slow-fire upper that runs Suomi mags turns a crappy machine pistol into one a the best SMG's in the world as far as function and putting bursts on target with retarded ease..
http://max-11.com/
http://max-11.com/
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@sirhrmechanic - don't you have a Lewis gun? Those are super interesting as well IMO, kinda paved the way as one of the first good LMGs..
Any clue for the reasoning behind the Brits ditching the Lewis for the Bren?
Any clue for the reasoning behind the Brits ditching the Lewis for the Bren?
Nope... I want a pair of twin Lewis guns rather muchly!
They didn’t ditch Lewis for Bren. Bren was like a BAR. A light mg. They ditched the Lewis for the vickers. But they ditched nothing in ww2. When the Lewis was obsolete in aircraft, they strapped them into Jeeps, ships, landing craft, aa installations. But as a squad support MG, the Bren Ruled.
Cheers, Sirhr
They didn’t ditch Lewis for Bren. Bren was like a BAR. A light mg. They ditched the Lewis for the vickers. But they ditched nothing in ww2. When the Lewis was obsolete in aircraft, they strapped them into Jeeps, ships, landing craft, aa installations. But as a squad support MG, the Bren Ruled.
Cheers, Sirhr
Pretty good comparison of WW1 LMG's/MMG's... the Lewis kinda cleaned house.
Cool.... yeah. Literally and figuratively. This is my next project. But I need to sell the Mutt for space to build it. Too many toys. Note the twin Lewis guns. And the third on the drivers fender. And the Ma Deuce. That's a ww2 Jeep... for those unfamiliar, not much bigger than a modern ATV. A LOT smaller than a current Wrangler.
So if you have a need for a very cool Mutt with all the gear (minus my live .50) let me know and I'll make you a deal!
That way I can build this and Buffalowinter and I can play ww2.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. Back in the late 1990's, I owned one of these. A real one. 10FG42. Not sure where it is now. But a whole lot of fun and firepower! But I really want to do a Jeep now!
Awesome. They should seriously start incorporating something like that in 2/3 gun and precision rifle matches: manning a MG on a vehicle and taking out as many targets as possible or something like that.
When you figure out the logistics on that one let me know and I'll incorporate it.
A better competition would be carrying the gun and tripod and digging a fighting position without having a stroke.
Or even shooting from a vehicle with your rifle.. would ranges allow that?
If so thatd be awesome. Just keep it simple, say have a driver get the vehicle going at a constant 30mph, with a row of targets set at 50yd or something like that.
Every range is different when it comes to what you can get away with. But its been done. It fits better in fun matches than more professional type matches because it can be difficult to maintain consistency for competitive equity.
Here's a match in my neighborhood that did it.
We did a competition a number of years ago down south and it involved using a cruiser as cover. And because the competition involved teams from all over the country, the sheriff wanted his shiniest, best newest cruiser so all the photos and videos would show off his best equipment.
Now enter 50’ two man teams. Quite a few of whom are running Atlas bipods with either spike feet or claw feet. Run from behind a berm... get cover behind engine block or rear end. Take shots all timed.
Think anyone stopped to remove their claws before planting the rifle on the hood of the cruiser? Not a one... by the time that stage was over, the hood, trunk and roof of that Crown Vic looked like a roadmap of Argentina.
Beware what you want to do with vehicles! Shooting inside them moving is not commensurate with effectiveness, Arnold movies to the contrary. If you don’t have heating protection, you will blow out eardrums. And if you fire a big enough round, you blow out the glass anyway.
Military units aside, where volume matters more than precision, shooting from vehicles is a waste of time.
Shooting from cover... learning to use a vehicle as a defensive or offensive weapon... very valuable. Training to get out of cruiser “ready to fight” should be part of standard basic knowledge and muscle memory. But even setting up a sniper hide in a car or suv... is a last resort thing.
Sirhr
Now enter 50’ two man teams. Quite a few of whom are running Atlas bipods with either spike feet or claw feet. Run from behind a berm... get cover behind engine block or rear end. Take shots all timed.
Think anyone stopped to remove their claws before planting the rifle on the hood of the cruiser? Not a one... by the time that stage was over, the hood, trunk and roof of that Crown Vic looked like a roadmap of Argentina.
Beware what you want to do with vehicles! Shooting inside them moving is not commensurate with effectiveness, Arnold movies to the contrary. If you don’t have heating protection, you will blow out eardrums. And if you fire a big enough round, you blow out the glass anyway.
Military units aside, where volume matters more than precision, shooting from vehicles is a waste of time.
Shooting from cover... learning to use a vehicle as a defensive or offensive weapon... very valuable. Training to get out of cruiser “ready to fight” should be part of standard basic knowledge and muscle memory. But even setting up a sniper hide in a car or suv... is a last resort thing.
Sirhr
What about shooting into a car then shooting from it?
What did the sheriff say when you handed the car back
I was a competitor, not an organizer.... He was watching the whole time!
Though I admit to being one of the shooters having a set of Atlas Claw feet and actually feeling bad about his poor cruiser! But by the time I was up to shoot, it already looked pretty bad!
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS: Found the pictures from the comp. They don't show the damage unfortunately! But this is my partner and I running past the berm down to the 'cruiser' cover shoot.
And here we are shooting. He's in the foreground and that's my lard-ass in the back shooting off the trunk.
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Y’all seemed to have forgotten about the shrike?
Nice
OT but whats your favorite bolt rifle for comps sirh?
Sako trg 22. Not just comps it was
My duty rifle for 8 years.
I was gonna say Winchester 51?
@TonyTheTiger - do you think you'd feel much benefit on a semi auto AR running the Surefire bcg you mentioned a while back that in effect imitates constant recoil?
I'm guessing a JP LMOS + the correct/perfect gas setting would give just as much if not more recoil reduction tho..??
I'm guessing a JP LMOS + the correct/perfect gas setting would give just as much if not more recoil reduction tho..??
I don't know, good question. I can't see a two way suspended weight quite replicating what my understanding of a constant recoil system feels like.
It kinda runs contrary to everything guys are trying to do when setting up for minimum recoil, that is we try to go as light as possible but keep the bolt unlock under control by using less gas. You end up with a very fast cycle speed still but there's so little mass bottoming out against your shoulder that you dont feel anything and the muzzle doesn't move much. Then when the bolt slams forward the low mass and light springs don't dip the muzzle at all. You don't feel all the different recoil impulses an AR has, its more like a bolt gun in that the whole show is over instantly.
Anytime I've felt a tuned heavy system it really stretches the recoil impulse out over a long time. It may feel relatively soft but you can watch the dot jitter as each stage of cycling happens. I'd guess the sliding weight takes away some of the individual stages jitters and turns it into more of a single drawn out impulse. This is all conjecture on my part though, if you buy a Surefire and send it to me I'd be happy to test it for you!
Obviously full auto is best left to the open bolt MG's, and the AR is best suited to more precise semi auto fire.. but what would your ideal full auto AR build look like components-wise? Have you tried out the surefire quad stack mag?
Like the -A2 but with a better brake.
I don't know enough about the workings of a select fire AR to suggest any significant changes to the operating system, I'm sure Stoner knew more than I ever will about that. Like sandwarrior said, a good brake, and a well tuned gas/buffer system.
That said I've been lucky enough to shoot a select fire AR a couple times and its cool but beyond 30-40 yards or so I can put more rounds near center mass a lot faster with a semi auto, and be a lot more efficient with ammo use while I'm at it.
Right when I got into 3 gun was when everyone was throwing the last of their Surefire 60's in the trash. I saw enough trainwrecks caused by them that I've taken hats off prize tables instead of them. A couple guys swear by them, but those guys also sprinkle graphite powder in while loading them and a bunch of other voodoo stuff that isn't worth the trouble. The Magpul D60 makes the Surefire even more irrelevant.
But, for my work, we only are required to do 3 shot groups on the tombstones. Does that count?
Anybody here gotta Lage upper for the MAC M10/M11/etc? Looks like it really transforms those machine pistols into something useful.
I'd like to test these https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/pike
Yep; have one for my M10/45 along with their collapsing stock and while making it heavier than the stock configuration it makes it so much more controllable.
Nice. Got any pics?
They gotta 5.56 upper as well now I wonder what the quality on those is like..
No pics, but it looks like the standard M10/45 with the Lage upper and the fat two stage Sionics suppressor.
I love the Lage upper for real shooting, but there is something stupid fun about running the bullet hose factory upper with the can. That said, the .45ACP MACs are the slowest RPM-wise.
Nah. It Chauchat itself after two rounds.
Maybe you don’t understand tactics?
Of course I understand tactics. I’ve been playing the whole call of duty series since it came out, and counter strike before it.
Well, I guess that would qualify...
All a cool read! Nice to see this stuff talked about for a change!
I’ve personally have owned a MG34 and have got to fire a MG42. Both cool guns. My 34 always ran like a watch. That thing didn’t skip a beat. The only time it didn’t fire was because the round didn’t go off from a bad primer. Yes more expensive to make than a 42 and the 42 is most likely more forgiving being dirty but think about this. Even at wars end the Germans had 5 factories making MG34’s. I even made a couple of new barrels for the 34.
The 42/MG3 for the most part is still in use and being made to my knowledge. The main design hasn’t changed and that has to say something for it.
The M60 as I understand it’s existent came from the MG42 and FG42 and used parts from both and that’s how it came about. There is a picture of the prototype from APG in my book on the FG42. From guys that I know that have owned or used M60s that if properly maintained etc...it’s a reliable gun. The biggest thing I’ve always heard is the rails wear/go in the receiver. When the rails go the reliability is gone.
All though not a GPMG the Vickers water cooled is a classic and like my 34 that thing never missed a beat either.
Out of the FA’s that I’ve owned....I miss the 34 the most. My MP43 is the second most missed along with the Swedish Model K subgun.
I’ve personally have owned a MG34 and have got to fire a MG42. Both cool guns. My 34 always ran like a watch. That thing didn’t skip a beat. The only time it didn’t fire was because the round didn’t go off from a bad primer. Yes more expensive to make than a 42 and the 42 is most likely more forgiving being dirty but think about this. Even at wars end the Germans had 5 factories making MG34’s. I even made a couple of new barrels for the 34.
The 42/MG3 for the most part is still in use and being made to my knowledge. The main design hasn’t changed and that has to say something for it.
The M60 as I understand it’s existent came from the MG42 and FG42 and used parts from both and that’s how it came about. There is a picture of the prototype from APG in my book on the FG42. From guys that I know that have owned or used M60s that if properly maintained etc...it’s a reliable gun. The biggest thing I’ve always heard is the rails wear/go in the receiver. When the rails go the reliability is gone.
All though not a GPMG the Vickers water cooled is a classic and like my 34 that thing never missed a beat either.
Out of the FA’s that I’ve owned....I miss the 34 the most. My MP43 is the second most missed along with the Swedish Model K subgun.
@sirhrmechanic who do you go to to work on rare odd stuff? Eg fixing mangled/bent Chauchat mags and stuff like that? Mark @ Anvil Gunsmithing? Or do you do the work yourself..??
The MG34 is a precision weapon. All you say is true, but I’ve got no complaints with shooting it... except that finding ammo, if you don't reload it, can be a challenge.
Love the triggers.
Love the fact that I’ve got a scope and a slights for general purpose slaugher; in otherword, love the fact I can snipe with it or let loose.
Still trying to find the full tripod rig...
Still, its the way to go for a collector. (It was $60,000....)
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Black river militaria. The varsity! Also had Kiwi Restorations do a couple of semi Bren assemblies after I machined the frames.
Cheers, sirhr
Thanks for responding sir. Gonna check their website out when I get home
Frank,
We used the M60 as a machine gun. Due to the volume we put through them I would say very reliable. It took about two years of hard training service to wear them out. That was blank firing every week and an average of a live fire about once a week. Yes, the rails wore. Especially the pivot arm. However, the biggest stoppage I always saw was that people didn’t load it right. Damage was often caused to the pivot arm because the bolt was forward and the feed tray cover was slammed down on it. This misaligns the pivot arm with the cover. They would then attempt to move the bolt to the rear, damaging the rails in the cover as well as the pivot arm. Not to mention a boss on the bolt rides in those rails and can damage the lower rails the bolt rides in. But, they are much more stout.
The upper rails handle the cartridges, the lower rails (body of the gun) handle the bolt.
Well trained gun teams could ‘talk’ to each other with the sixties.
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Im pretty sure its the MG34/MG42 "tripod/mount"(?) thats the one which is ridiculously precise as far as elevation and windage adjustments? Its not like normal tripods tho, and I cant remember the correct terminology for it. Do you know what Im talking about?
Far as MG accuracy... obviously that aint what they're designed for lol, but I definitely wouldn't call it a bad thing either... eg Id rather have a more precise MG than a less precise one.
Anyway, the point Im getting to is that AFAIK the Vickers has a reputation as the most accurate MG. But then the Vickers is a massive SOB and so heavy as to not really be a valid comparison to these others. Ive also heard the Bren has a particularly tight cone of fire.
In the "Project Lightening" WW1 LMG comparison which I posted the 1st episode a little earlier in this thread, the Lewis cleaned house in basically every category: 100yd cone of fire size smoked the others, walking hip fire, and like 3-4 more categories of comparison. It was the Lewis .303 vs the MG08/15 vs Hotchkiss 1914 vs WW1 M1918 BAR vs Chauchat .30-06 vs Chauchat 8mm Lebel vs legit WW1 Austrian 7x57 Madsen.
The Madsen surprisingly didn't do so hot. Ditto the BAR. I thought those 2 would do better than they did.
For those who like this stuff, Id definitely recommend watching it! The test/comparisons is somewhat limited as far as what all comparisons they do. AND the sample size is one of each MG. With that said, I aint seen any other MG comparison anywhere close to even the limited scope of the Project Lightening comparison/test.
It’s called a lafette tripod. They are really hard to find, and when do you... they are crazy expensive.
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Thats the one! Thanks a bunch sir! IIRC the operator aint necessarily expose themselves to enemy fire when using it, correct?
