Mildot in use

[600]

Ok coming from ar15 with T1 red dot only this is my first time with a mildot scope(christmas tree). I have been searching around for how to use the mildot system and in my search I just end up with a bunch of scattered informations.

So in an attempt to gather my info and put it down for practical use I divided up my search results in a chronological way. But I could need some help from guys in here to verify if I truly understand this miliradian system or if Im way off.

Pretending Im in the field here it goes..

Step 1, The back ground understanding

(Mil dot coverage @ a given distance)
Formula
Mil x Distance in m = mm Coverage @ Distance in m

Example
0.37 Mil x 351 m = 130 mm Coverage @ Distance in m


STEP 2, estimating range to target
Formula
Target in mm / Mil = Distance in m away

Example
4000mm / 7.3 mil = 548 m away


STEP 3 , mil hold for bullet frop @ distance
Formula
Bullet drop in mm / Distance in m = Mil hold

Example
2280 mm drop / 548 m = 4.16 Mil hold

The 2280 mm bullet drop @ 548 m is something I got from the back of a 308 ammo package.

 

[DairyDictator]

All that CAN be done. I haven't seen anybody actually doing that ever honestly, but I may not run in those circles. The way I have seen most including myself use it is "My solver tells me 3.0 mils elevation at 500 yards so I'll either hold or dial that into my turrets. Same deal for wind"

There's quite a few rules of thumb that tend to work better in mils than MOA but that's beside the point.

 

[600]

Yeah well of course all the techs are cool. But the idea with me trying a bolt gun with mildot christmas tree was to do it manually not depending on any electronic devices/apps. Yeah that might not be as fast and accurate, but I found it interesting to do it the analogue/mechanical way. Yeah maybe I'm a bit old fashion.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Check out Speed Drop, it doesn't do much for ranging for but it can quickly help you figure out your dope using grade level math. My 6.5CM's Speed Drop number is 2.4 and I can use that to figure out my elevation data within a particular range envelope with +/- .2 mil accuracy, in my 6.5's case it's about 400-900 I think.

It works like this:

Target Range = 860; SD Number = 2.4

8.6 (860 y) - 2.4 = 6.2 mils (Strelek Pro says 6.3)

I can also dial down below my 100 yard zero 2.4 mils and then use the reticle as a BDC so that 4 mils = 400 yards, 5 mils = 500, etc..

 

[600]

Pretty cool with the Speed Drop chart. I just looked it up for 308 based on a 168gr. And backward calculated it and it seems to be the exact same thing like the steps I explained. So it looks like I get the idea

 

[308pirate]

STEP 3 , mil hold for bullet frop @ distance
Formula
Bullet drop in mm / Distance in m = Mil hold

Example
2280 mm drop / 548 m = 4.16 Mil hold

The 2280 mm bullet drop @ 548 m is something I got from the back of a 308 ammo package.

Do not do this. If you know ahead of time what your bullet drop in millimeters is at a certain distance, then you also know ahead of time what bullet drop is in milliradians. Just make a small cheat sheet with drop in mrads for distances in 25 or 50 meter increments to carry in a pocket or taped to some part of the rifle.

Using linear units to describe trajectory is just plain stupid.

Your math is correct in steps 1 and 2 and I welcome you to try. But buy a laser rangefinder anyway. That way you can see for yourself how inaccurate mil-dot ranging is at the distances where you need it the most and then will just use the laser anyway.

 

[600]

Do not do this. If you know ahead of time what your bullet drop in millimeters is at a certain distance, then you also know ahead of time what bullet drop is in milliradians. Just make a small cheat sheet with drop in mrads for distances in 25 or 50 meter increments to carry in a pocket or taped to some part of the rifle.

Using linear units to describe trajectory is just plain stupid.

Your math is correct in steps 1 and 2 and I welcome you to try. But buy a laser rangefinder anyway. That way you can see for yourself how inaccurate mil-dot ranging is at the distances where you need it the most and then will just use the laser anyway.

Thank you for your input

Well I know ahead of time my bullet drop because I looked it up on the back of a ammo pack. But is that information unreliable?

Cheat sheet = Pre calculated distance milestone at 50, 100, 150 etc.? And then translate these distances into mil hold over?

Like 50m = 1click, 100m = 2 click and etc.?? Is that a cheat sheet?

Regarding laser finder, if I can't rely on my mil-dot, how can I feed the laser finder data and make accurate hold over with the same unreliable mildots?? I don't get the logic here. Am I missing out something??

 

[Trigger Monkey]

But is that information unreliable?

Very unreliable, think of it as a guideline and subject to change based on your rifle.

 

[308pirate]

Thank you for your input

You're welcome

Well I know ahead of time my bullet drop because I looked it up on the back of a ammo pack. But is that information unreliable?

Not reliable at all for precision work. To be most accurate you either need to measure your bullet speed with a chronograph, then use that speed (and other data) to enter in a ballistic calculator like this one: https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Alternatively you can use a method like speed drop to get somewhere on target, then make minor elevation adjustments with the scope's elevation knob to get an exact elevation for each distance. Then you write all this down in your log book so you can keep track of changes in bullet trajectory due to atmospheric conditions.

Cheat sheet = Pre calculated distance milestone at 50, 100, 150 etc.? And then translate these distances into mil hold over?

Like 50m = 1click, 100m = 2 click and etc.?? Is that a cheat sheet?

Close but no. Something like this
100 m: .2 mrad
200 m: .5 mrad
300 m: 1.0 mrad
400 m: 1.7 mrad
500 m: 2.4 mrad
etc

The clicks on your scope could be worth .1 mrad each, or .2, or .05. Always use the angular units so that there is never any confusion about how much a "click" is worth.

Increments of 50 meters works well for most uses. Mine is in increments of 25 yards (since I'm in the USA)

Regarding laser finder, if I can't rely on my mil-dot, how can I feed the laser finder data and make accurate hold over with the same unreliable mildots?? I don't get the logic here. Am I missing out something??

Yes, you're missing experience. A small error in estimating the target height (or width) in millirads will translate into a big error in the distance that you get from the formula. That big error will most likely lead to a miss at distances beyond 600 meters or so. Not only that, you also need to know the target's height or width (whichever you're using) in millimeters (or whatever unit) exactly or you will introduce even more errors in the result (distance to target)

All that error compounding is absent when you get a very accurate distance to target with a laser, read off the bullet drop in mrads from your chart or you ballistic calculator, then put the reticle on target (or just dial up). There will be some approximation error if you use the reticle to hold off but it will be very small compared to the errors that compound each other when calculating distance using mil estimation.

I've done this all before, which is how I know this.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just explaining why things will likely not work out like you think they should.

 

[600]

You're welcome


Not reliable at all for precision work. To be most accurate you either need to measure your bullet speed with a chronograph, then use that speed (and other data) to enter in a ballistic calculator like this one: https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Alternatively you can use a method like speed drop to get somewhere on target, then make minor elevation adjustments with the scope's elevation knob to get an exact elevation for each distance. Then you write all this down in your log book so you can keep track of changes in bullet trajectory due to atmospheric conditions.


Close but no. Something like this
100 m: .2 mrad
200 m: .5 mrad
300 m: 1.0 mrad
400 m: 1.7 mrad
500 m: 2.4 mrad
etc

The clicks on your scope could be worth .1 mrad each, or .2, or .05. Always use the angular units so that there is never any confusion about how much a "click" is worth.

Increments of 50 meters works well for most uses. Mine is in increments of 25 yards (since I'm in the USA)


Yes, you're missing experience. A small error in estimating the target height (or width) in millirads will translate into a big error in the distance that you get from the formula. That big error will most likely lead to a miss at distances beyond 600 meters or so. Not only that, you also need to know the target's height or width (whichever you're using) in millimeters (or whatever unit) exactly or you will introduce even more errors in the result (distance to target)

All that error compounding is absent when you get a very accurate distance to target with a laser, read off the bullet drop in mrads from your chart or you ballistic calculator, then put the reticle on target (or just dial up). There will be some approximation error if you use the reticle to hold off but it will be very small compared to the errors that compound each other when calculating distance using mil estimation.

I've done this all before, which is how I know this.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just explaining why things will likely not work out like you think they should.

Hmm..that sucks that the ammo box can't be trusted

I saw a video of the Speed Drop it looks like a good and fast system. I got 3 questions for you.

1. How did you get the values with the 100m .2 mrad, 200m .5mrad?

2. Below 600m how much of an effect does it have if I'm a bit off?

3. By dialing a little bit too less, you should always be able to see the impact right? Like "an investment round" for second follow up. Is that a good idea?

 

[308pirate]

Hmm..that sucks that the ammo box can't be trusted

That data was not collected using your rifle.

I saw a video of the Speed Drop it looks like a good and fast system. I got 3 questions for you.

1. How did you get the values with the 100m .2 mrad, 200m .5mrad? I made those up, they are an example for you. But they're not far from what my rifle needs

2. Below 600m how much of an effect does it have if I'm a bit off? That's too vague of a question. It's also much more fun when you go shooting and learn these details yourself.

3. By dialing a little bit too less, you should always be able to see the impact right? Like "an investment round" for second follow up. Is that a good idea? No. Dial exactly what you need. If you miss, you will be able to see it anyway.

Answers in red

Anyway, it sounds like you've never really done this before. I strongly recommend that you don't spend too much time trying to learn everything perfectly on paper. Learn the minimum to not be lost, then go shoot. You will learn much more, much more quickly, that way.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

If you range a 12” target at .7 mils the range is 476 yards, if it’s actually .75 the range is 444 yards.

For a .308 175 going 2500, that ranging error equates to a .4 mil difference in trajectory and you're likely just over the plate.

Another 12” target and you ranged it at .5 mil to give a distance of 667 yards. Well it’s actually 605 yards away because the actual mil reading is .55 and that created a 60 yard ranging error. Same .308 as above, that’s a .9 mil error in elevation and a definite miss.

It’s really easy to get a .05 mil ranging error depending on the targets orientation, color, lighting conditions, and the amount of mirage in the air.

Also, depending on what’s around the target you may not see anything. Tall grass, shadows, wet ground, impacts behind the target are all hazards that equate to not seeing impacts to correct off of.

 

[600]

Yes first time. Shooting with scope at longer distances. Totally noob.

 

[spamassassin]

Yeah well of course all the techs are cool. But the idea with me trying a bolt gun with mildot christmas tree was to do it manually not depending on any electronic devices/apps. Yeah that might not be as fast and accurate, but I found it interesting to do it the analogue/mechanical way. Yeah maybe I'm a bit old fashion.

That's not old fashioned. Your preconceived notions are breaking you. What you're doing is being uninformed and thinking that what you expect of a thing, because it can, in theory, be used for what you think it is for, is what that thing is meant for. Nobody, and I mean nobody, does that kind of math in their head while behind a rifle. A scaled reticle is for DOING holdovers/holdoffs and DOING range estimation. Neither of those are anything like using the scaled reticle for doing mathematics on the fly to convert inches or centimeters of drop into mils of hold. The tolerance stacking and probability of serious error is gigantic. Use a ballistics application to generate your drop/drift table like you're meant to do. Attach the table to your rifle like you're meant to do. Refer to it like you're meant to do. Use the reticle to estimate how far the target is and to accomplish rapid multiple target engagements without spinning turrets, like you're meant to do.

Just because you can use a screwdriver to drive a nail doesn't mean you're holding a hammer. It just means you don't know how to use either.

There are myriad apps for your phone for ballistics or you can use a spreadsheet like this one (scroll down until you see ballisticxlr v10.5) that's meant to be used to print tables out. The sooner you start using the right tool for the job the sooner you'll find yourself bored with using anything under a quarter mile away as a target.

 

[600]

Ok! Just browsed for a BC Calculator and end up installing the Hornady 4DOF/General BC calc. So after putting in metric setting, muzzle velocity, twist rate, altitude etc. I can see its pretty easy to just roll the distance coupled with wind.

So when you guys have found an ammo your rifle likes, you simply make a paper card with say 25 to 50m intervals, roll the app calc and write it down for that particular ammo?? Is that how people do it?? Hence a "cheat paper"?

If yes, then there is no real math involved behind the rifle as I first thought! Just glance at the cheating paper and hold over?

 

[600]

That Hornady App is a keeper then!
anyone know what the G1, G2 and Ammo tab means?

Again thank you all for the valuable inputs that refined my understanding of this subject and its implememtation in real life. Priceless! It has been a steep learning curve going from an Aimpoint to MRAD scope in few days! Thank you all so much. Now Im gonna go out and shoot

 

[45-90]

Without a range finder a Mil-Dot Master will be a helpful tool...its like a slide rule for ranging targets. But accuracy depends on accurate input of your breaking down fractions of a mil and height of the target...old school tool, that offers some decent ranging accuracy.

 

[600]

Without a range finder a Mil-Dot Master will be a helpful tool...its like a slide rule for ranging targets. But accuracy depends on accurate input of your breaking down fractions of a mil and height of the target...old school tool, that offers some decent ranging accuracy.

So is that like an old school "app"?

 

[brianf]

All advice above has been really good but unless I missed it..

You will need to know what type of scope you are buying.

Is it first or second focal plane.

there are many threads about it on the site but if you buy a second focal plane scope there can be many more calculations to do because the mildot math in the manual is only accurate for one magnification.

If you haven’t bought a scope you do yourself a favor and get a second focal plane scope. It will make you life ALOT easier.

If you already have a second focal plane scope, it’s still works perfectly it’s just a little more time consuming in calculations

 

[600]

All advice above has been really good but unless I missed it..

You will need to know what type of scope you are buying.

Is it first or second focal plane.

there are many threads about it on the site but if you buy a second focal plane scope there can be many more calculations to do because the mildot math in the manual is only accurate for one magnification.

If you haven’t bought a scope you do yourself a favor and get a second focal plane scope. It will make you life ALOT easier.

If you already have a second focal plane scope, it’s still works perfectly it’s just a little more time consuming in calculations

I was focusing on FFP only.

 

[45-90]

All advice above has been really good but unless I missed it..

You will need to know what type of scope you are buying.

Is it first or second focal plane.

there are many threads about it on the site but if you buy a second focal plane scope there can be many more calculations to do because the mildot math in the manual is only accurate for one magnification.

If you haven’t bought a scope you do yourself a favor and get a second focal plane scope. It will make you life ALOT easier.

If you already have a second focal plane scope, it’s still works perfectly it’s just a little more time consuming in calculations

I used 2nd focal plane scope for many years before LR shooting became a popular thing. There is no disadvantage if you practice with it, even converting mils to moa.
I use both today... but prefer 2nd focal plane for serious work, hunting or killing field work, for general survival. Your biggest threat will be up close and personal, where the 2nd focal plane 3X gives you fast acquisition you need to survive.. or make a fast running kill shot. And prefer the unsophisticated Leupold 3-10X Mark 4 USMC 3/4 mildot, used back in the day out to 1400 yds on any target that presents itself...for a general purpose carry rifle with maximum effective range for the 308 Win caliber, with components available then...the scope is still use it today. Good eyesight is the key and the 25 plus X scopes help bad or aging eyes...
Eyesight and experience, in Vietnam Hathcock killed an enemy at 2500 yds with 8X, most were 3-9X ...shooting a sniper out of a tree at 900 yds from a moving river patrol boat, on the Delta. Serious LR work with 2nd focal plane scopes of low power or straight power 10X or less making LR shots for very many years...no problem with good eyesight.
When the lights go out and no batteries available your 2nd FP, low powerd, mildot scope and old slide rule mil dot master still work, just memorize your enemies or targets measurements, & heights, like the height of common wheels on his vehicles, etc. Just like bracket the standing man reticle...or ya know its a 10" steel target, same deal. And being accurate for ranging on the highest power of 10x is no big deal, cause that's where its always at, unless you're on the move then it's 3X for a close fast engagement with a big reticle image in the scope, and knowing the range is of no consideration.

 

[brianf]

I used 2nd focal plane scope for many years before LR shooting became a popular thing. There is no disadvantage if you practice with it, even converting mils to moa.
I use both today... but prefer 2nd focal plane for serious work, hunting or killing field work, for general survival. Your biggest threat will be up close and personal, where the 2nd focal plane 3X gives you fast acquisition you need to survive.. or make a fast running kill shot. And prefer the unsophisticated Leupold 3-10X Mark 4 USMC 3/4 mildot, used back in the day out to 1400 yds on any target that presents itself...for a general purpose carry rifle with maximum effective range for the 308 Win caliber, with components available then...the scope is still use it today. Good eyesight is the key and the 25 plus X scopes help bad or aging eyes...
Eyesight and experience, in Vietnam Hathcock killed an enemy at 2500 yds with 8X, most were 3-9X ...shooting a sniper out of a tree at 900 yds from a moving river patrol boat, on the Delta. Serious LR work with 2nd focal plane scopes of low power or straight power 10X or less making LR shots for very many years...no problem with good eyesight.
When the lights go out and no batteries available your 2nd FP, low powerd, mildot scope and old slide rule mil dot master still work, just memorize your enemies or targets measurements, & heights, like the height of common wheels on his vehicles, etc. Just like bracket the standing man reticle...or ya know its a 10" steel target, same deal. And being accurate for ranging on the highest power of 10x is no big deal, cause that's where its always at, unless you're on the move then it's 3X for a close fast engagement with a big reticle image in the scope, and knowing the range is of no consideration.

Yes they both work as stated.

Sorry to say but people were shooting”LR” before you did. We’re you at camp perry before there was color TV ..lol

Unless you need a veerrrrry fine point to aim with like f-class second focal plane is just not as user friendly especially to beginners. Never mind older SFP that had mil dots and turrets in Moa like the stuff that I first bought..that’s just a retarded design.

Yes things have been shot with both and we used sharp sticks and lived in caves but we’ve moved on. We used drop charts and moved to ballistic apps.

It’s just a natural progression.

Op, up to you. Like most things use is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[FatBoy]

OP,

I like your headspace. If you have the time, money for ammo and patience to learn how to use your equipment analog, in my opinion you will be better off in the long run as you actually understand the why and how. Is it easy, no. But that’s not really the point is it?

As has been stated numerous times, getting a good muzzle velocity of your ammo lot and a good zero is going to be crucial for input into any ballistic program. Don’t guess if you can avoid it.

If you don’t have a chronograph, you can go out, zero at 100, then come up to 600 and see what the come up is and back calculate with a Ballistic computer (I use JBM) but it’s still just a guess and to be honest, if you’re already there and shooting at distance you might just as well forget all that shit and just write down your actual DOPE. Then you have real world, no shit data for your kit. Not just a computers guess that you’re going to have to validate anyway.

Whatever scope you choose, done forget to do a tall target test, maybe a box test to ensure your clicks are true and repeatable as well as your mounted plumb.

There are a lot of hacks to make this stuff easier. Most are very good but having the base understanding of how to Mil a target, how to develop DOPE and why things both work and fail is never going to put you at a disadvantage, especially if your fancy shit breaks or you can’t charge it.

In the end, IMO, this is all academic. If you absolutely, positively must execute a perfect shot on something, get closer.

Remember, this is supposed to be fun.

Chris

 

[308pirate]

I was focusing on FFP only.

Yes. Ignore any suggestions to buy a SFP scope. They have their place, just not in practical precision shooting.

 

[308pirate]

I used 2nd focal plane scope for many years before LR shooting became a popular thing. There is no disadvantage if you practice with it, even converting mils to moa.
I use both today... but prefer 2nd focal plane for serious work, hunting or killing field work, for general survival. Your biggest threat will be up close and personal, where the 2nd focal plane 3X gives you fast acquisition you need to survive.. or make a fast running kill shot. And prefer the unsophisticated Leupold 3-10X Mark 4 USMC 3/4 mildot, used back in the day out to 1400 yds on any target that presents itself...for a general purpose carry rifle with maximum effective range for the 308 Win caliber, with components available then...the scope is still use it today. Good eyesight is the key and the 25 plus X scopes help bad or aging eyes...
Eyesight and experience, in Vietnam Hathcock killed an enemy at 2500 yds with 8X, most were 3-9X ...shooting a sniper out of a tree at 900 yds from a moving river patrol boat, on the Delta. Serious LR work with 2nd focal plane scopes of low power or straight power 10X or less making LR shots for very many years...no problem with good eyesight.
When the lights go out and no batteries available your 2nd FP, low powerd, mildot scope and old slide rule mil dot master still work, just memorize your enemies or targets measurements, & heights, like the height of common wheels on his vehicles, etc. Just like bracket the standing man reticle...or ya know its a 10" steel target, same deal. And being accurate for ranging on the highest power of 10x is no big deal, cause that's where its always at, unless you're on the move then it's 3X for a close fast engagement with a big reticle image in the scope, and knowing the range is of no consideration.

This is like insisting on shooting pistols with a weaver stance and grip instead of using a modern isoceles stance and thumbs fwd, locked wrists grip.

 

[45-90]

Yes they both work as stated.

Sorry to say but people were shooting”LR” before you did. We’re you at camp perry before there was color TV ..lol

Unless you need a veerrrrry fine point to aim with like f-class second focal plane is just not as user friendly especially to beginners. Never mind older SFP that had mil dots and turrets in Moa like the stuff that I first bought..that’s just a retarded design.

Yes things have been shot with both and we used sharp sticks and lived in caves but we’ve moved on. We used drop charts and moved to ballistic apps.

It’s just a natural progression.

Op, up to you. Like most things use is in the eye of the beholder.

I did not state I was the first to shoot LR, that is false to say I did. Military and Buffalo hunters have been shooting LR with black powder. Like Sandy Hook US Government trials in 1879 45-70 500, Springfield Armory shooting 3500, 2500, yards in testing the open sight 45-70, and declared it good for trooper engagements to 1900 yds in 1879. The old military rifles with ladder sights to 2000 meters at the turn of the last century. And ladder sights on Winchester lever 44-40s for LR engagement.
Yes you can shoot eggs at 1000 yds with 10X 2nd focal plane...the Mark 4 mil dot had fine crosshairs dropping off from heavy crosshairs, and pop cans at 1400 yds.
There is a difference between gaming and real world engagement, where you may have to defend yourself with a sniper rifle, at close range.
I would agree for the beginner or anyone else that best application of FFP is for gaming... and mils mils or moa moa turrents and reticle match it's just easier... and either is good I have both, for that purpose. But personally prefer 2nd focal plane 3-10X on a serious encounter rifle...where 10 yds or 1400 yds is quick and easily doable with plenty of precision...if you have good eyes, for longer ranges, and ya don't need a spotter, and don't have the heat wave problem, plus taking out an enemy or bear that happens on ya at 30 yds moving. Each has a place I choose mine according to use. My Dasher has a big FFP 27X so does one 30" 308 but they are very heavy and not for packing around in the woods...they barely shoot smaller groups than a good clear 10X on average.

 

[45-90]

This is like insisting on shooting pistols with a weaver stance and grip instead of using a modern isoceles stance and thumbs fwd, locked wrists grip.

A scope and gripping a pistol have nothing in common...like your hair cut and your dick,...
at least they both can be stroked..

 

[brianf]

I did not state I was the first to shoot LR, that is false to say I did. Military and Buffalo hunters have been shooting LR with black powder. Like Sandy Hook US Government trials in 1879 45-70 500, Springfield Armory shooting 3500, 2500, yards in testing the open sight 45-70, and declared it good for trooper engagements to 1900 yds in 1879. The old military rifles with ladder sights to 2000 meters at the turn of the last century. And ladder sights on Winchester lever 44-40s for LR engagement.
Yes you can shoot eggs at 1000 yds with 10X 2nd focal plane...the Mark 4 mil dot had fine crosshairs dropping off from heavy crosshairs, and pop cans at 1400 yds.
There is a difference between gaming and real world engagement, where you may have to defend yourself with a sniper rifle, at close range.
I would agree for the beginner or anyone else that best application of FFP is for gaming... and mils mils or moa moa turrents and reticle match it's just easier... and either is good I have both, for that purpose. But personally prefer 2nd focal plane 3-10X on a serious encounter rifle...where 10 yds or 1400 yds is quick and easily doable with plenty of precision...if you have good eyes, for longer ranges, and ya don't need a spotter, and don't have the heat wave problem, plus taking out an enemy or bear that happens on ya at 30 yds moving. Each has a place I choose mine according to use. My Dasher has a big FFP 27X so does one 30" 308 but they are very heavy and not for packing around in the woods...they barely shoot smaller groups than a good clear 10X on average.

All joking aside you just totally incorrect.

Put your ffp 3-10x on approx 6x because mirage is rough that day and tell me how to mil and hold when the mfg states that “a mil is a mil at 10x”

Tell me how to accurately range a target that is supposed to be approx 30” while on 6x…I’ll wait …because it will take forever if someone even knows how to do it.

Then tell me how you know it’s 6 not 6.2 because it’s a rotating dial with out detents. Because that will mess up the math which messes up the dope.

Additionally anyone who thinks milling past 800 is a guarantee is living in fantasy world.

How about when the target is bright or its darker..can you get a clear edge ..no

How about it not perfectly square in front of you and it’s partially turned away…do you know the angle and what the math is

Milling is the last resort if all other equipment goes to shit. Ask some of the guys on this site who were in the desert for real not shooting at the range how many times they actually ranged with a ret…..if it’s 1-2% I’d say your lucky.

And if there is a fantasy fast engagement at 1400, then it’s moving and your not hitting it anyway. Snap shots at 1400 are for movies.

 

[45-90]

So is that like an old school "app?"
This is the Mil Dot Master, go to YouTube to learn how to use it ... it's old school but works without batteries, with less cost. See if it might be useful to you. Will convert mils to moa instantly, if ya have a mis matched setup, with reticle and turrent, also yards or meters, your choice. Does incline estimates. A helpful little tool for a beginner who doesn't have a bunch of money to spend. Accurately range with mil dots, shoot the yardage without a chronograph...record the drop, repeat for each yardage measured in mils, and build a drop chart table for that particular ammo. Carry it with you.
The chronograph & laser range finder is better, the chronograph tells the consistency and the velocity of your ammo...but you can start this way with just a decent mil dot scope, and a mildot master.

 

[FatBoy]

....Is this some airsoft LARP shit or are you being serious?...

When have you ever had to defend yourself at close range with a 'sniper rifle' ?...hell, when has ANYONE?

If I'm out hunting and I stumble upon a bear or moose.....I have a handgun.....

If someone is actually deployed and doing "sniper shit with actual sniper rifles"......they also have a handgun...if not also an M4( or at least the option to carry one).....aaaand a spotter.

And likely rear security.

Ahh the mildot master. Still have mine. Holding up well after 22 years. Thanks, Nick.

 

[45-90]

All joking aside you just totally incorrect.

Put your ffp 3-10x on approx 6x because mirage is rough that day and tell me how to mil and hold when the mfg states that “a mil is a mil at 10x”

Tell me how to accurately range a target that is supposed to be approx 30” while on 6x…I’ll wait …because it will take forever if someone even knows how to do it.

Then tell me how you know it’s 6 not 6.2 because it’s a rotating dial with out detents. Because that will mess up the math which messes up the dope.

Additionally anyone who thinks milling past 800 is a guarantee is living in fantasy world.

How about when the target is bright or its darker..can you get a clear edge ..no

How about it not perfectly square in front of you and it’s partially turned away…do you know the angle and what the math is

Milling is the last resort if all other equipment goes to shit. Ask some of the guys on this site who were in the desert for real not shooting at the range how many times they actually ranged with a ret…..if it’s 1-2% I’d say your lucky.

And if there is a fantasy fast engagement at 1400, then it’s moving and your not hitting it anyway. Snap shots at 1400 are for movies.

You like to make up things I never said...I can tell you haven’t a clue, but want to push your expertise but showing the lack thereof...Who said anything about changing scope power to 6X, "fast" engagement at 1400yds? Can you read? I said 30 yds...
or the limited accuracy of any system...which is present in everything involved...all the time. And miling is just a simple tool, to get a range estimate...even stated the laser range finder is better, but if ya don't have one, you can still do informal shooting better than guessing for the person just starting out, with little expense, was the point. Not that it's better, but might be helpful, something to checkout for the beginner with little resources to spend on this endevor and most likely not be shooting as far as you experts to begin with ...Can you read? Evidently not...Parrott.

 

[brianf]

I

You like to make up things I never said...I can tell you haven’t a clue, but want to push your expertise but showing the lack thereof...Who said anything about changing scope power to 6X, "fast" engagement at 1400yds? Can you read? I said 30 yds...
or the limited accuracy of any system...which is present in everything involved...all the time. And miling is just a simple tool, to get a range estimate...even stated the laser range finder is better, but if ya don't have one, you can still do informal shooting better than guessing for the person just starting out, with little expense, was the point. Not that it's better, but might be helpful, something to checkout for the beginner with little resources to spend on this endevor and most likely not be shooting as far as you experts to begin with ...Can you read? Evidently not...Parrott.

Yes I can read your just making up fantasy situations to try and prove that old tech is just as good as new tech for the same market price.

Just say I like old out of date equipment yet it still out rounds in target.

But let it be known that newer tech and accessories can be had at the same or cheaper price and be more effective.

If you playing arm chair prepper put a cheap red dot on a 45 degree mount…or just buy a AR and be done with it

If your not going to ever change the power on a scope why buy a variable? Or that’s only for home defense in the living room?

So you only shoot at 10x your entire life?

I’ll bow out, to much knowledge for me to compete with

 

[308pirate]

A scope and gripping a pistol have nothing in common...like your hair cut and your dick,...
at least they both can be stroked..

You're too dumb to attempt to have a discussion with, if that's what you thought I was saying.

Go back to watching Red Dawn

 

[308pirate]

I did not state I was the first to shoot LR, that is false to say I did. Military and Buffalo hunters have been shooting LR with black powder. Like Sandy Hook US Government trials in 1879 45-70 500, Springfield Armory shooting 3500, 2500, yards in testing the open sight 45-70, and declared it good for trooper engagements to 1900 yds in 1879. The old military rifles with ladder sights to 2000 meters at the turn of the last century. And ladder sights on Winchester lever 44-40s for LR engagement.
Yes you can shoot eggs at 1000 yds with 10X 2nd focal plane...the Mark 4 mil dot had fine crosshairs dropping off from heavy crosshairs, and pop cans at 1400 yds.
There is a difference between gaming and real world engagement, where you may have to defend yourself with a sniper rifle, at close range.
I would agree for the beginner or anyone else that best application of FFP is for gaming... and mils mils or moa moa turrents and reticle match it's just easier... and either is good I have both, for that purpose. But personally prefer 2nd focal plane 3-10X on a serious encounter rifle...where 10 yds or 1400 yds is quick and easily doable with plenty of precision...if you have good eyes, for longer ranges, and ya don't need a spotter, and don't have the heat wave problem, plus taking out an enemy or bear that happens on ya at 30 yds moving. Each has a place I choose mine according to use. My Dasher has a big FFP 27X so does one 30" 308 but they are very heavy and not for packing around in the woods...they barely shoot smaller groups than a good clear 10X on average.

Straight up bullshit

I would agree for the beginner or anyone else that best application of FFP is for gaming

You should tell these guys that

 

[brianf]

You're too dumb to attempt to have a discussion with, if that's what you thought I was saying.

Go back to watching Red Dawn

Have to admit I love red dawn..the original not that commi knock off 10 years ago

 

[45-90]

Straight up bullshit

You should tell these guys that

But it took these guys fourty yrs to catch up...using the best electronic equipment, available today, including satellites...and most still can't do it. Total LOL.

 

[brianf]

But it took these guys fourty yrs to catch up...using the best electronic equipment, available today, including satellites...and most still can't do it. Total LOL.

Tell me your spirit animal is the old guy from the movie shooter or this is a AI algorithm.

Someone please make it stop

 

[308pirate]

But it took these guys fourty yrs to catch up...using the best electronic equipment, available today, including satellites...and most still can't do it. Total LOL.

Very nice

Troll level 11/10

 

[45-90]

Tell me your spirit animal is the old guy from the movie shooter or this is a AI algorithm.

Someone please make it stop

"You can't handle the truth!"....as you fall to the floor screaming and kicking clutching your pussy hat, for comfort. ..no, no..
Even when it's gone, it's still there ...the haunting realization, the pain, that you are totally irrelevant,...void of original thought fading like a dim candle into the vast emptiness of space where eternity and the black hole, awaits... finally realizing, no one cares.

 

[brianf]

hold on, hes just about to tell us about how he used a 360 no scope to kill osama bin laden.

"You can't handle the truth!"....as you fall to the floor screaming and kicking clutching your pussy hat, for comfort. ..no, no..
Even when it's gone, it's still there ...the haunting realization, the pain, that you are totally irrelevant,...void of original thought fading like a dim candle into the vast emptiness of space where eternity and the black hole, awaits... finally realizing, no one cares.

maybe but I know you’ve read plasters sniper book to many times.

Next you’ll be telling us how a robar is the best rifle

how a 168smk drops to the ground at 662 yards

along with every other piece of past it’s prime info from 1992

…I bet with your 270 you held the tip of the nose at a full speed run at 400 and DRT

h waiting for the tiny 3 shot group picture you shot in 2004 with a savage because customs aren’t worth the money

Sorry OP didn’t want to derail the thread, but all joking aside dont take this guys advice.

It’s not all wrong just 30 years out of date.

You could do better …not saying I’m right

 

[spamassassin]

Gotta give @600 some kudos. He came in with head up ass, got corrected and then immediately took the correction to heart and moved forward without drama. Takes a proper grown up for that to happen. You'll go far, man.

 

[308pirate]

Gotta give @600 some kudos. He came in with head up ass, got corrected and then immediately took the correction to heart and moved forward without drama. Takes a proper grown up for that to happen. You'll go far, man.

And then what was shaping up to be an excellent thread got crapped on massively by a dumbass

 

[600]

Well, thank you all for your valuable inputs. I appreaciate it.

c",)

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Here's how it works in the real world in real conditions:

You have:

-FFP optic (domestic LE may opt for SFP, but that's a different application as distances are very short usually)
- at least one laser rangefinder. many times you'll have a backup
- kestrel or other such computer
- analog back up dope/da charts
- analog "cheat sheet" made for your intended prey/target

You'll use the electronics to range. Then either use your analog arm board or software to give you the firing solution.

If for some reason you are unable to range via laser, you will move to your "cheat sheet." This analog data will already have pre-solved ranges with the size of your intended prey/target in mils (or moa if you're one of the rare people still using that).

I.E. if you're hunting whitetail, you'll already have the math pre-solved. You measure from bottom of chest to top of back in your optic, see that its X mils tall....find that amount of mils in your cheat sheet and you get Y yards for the range. No math done in the field. Just a measurement in reticle and cross reference your cheat sheet.

You can do this with the average or known height or width of common things like doors and windows. Any other thing that has a fairly standard height or width.


That's it. There is no math done in the field under time/pressure. Anyone saying otherwise is a tactical Timmy like above.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Also, reticle ranging is only practically effective to 600yds or so.

Past that, the human ability to correctly mil precise enough to be inside the danger space of the cartridge is near impossible. Add in some mirage or odd angles of what you're trying to measure.....and it becomes impossible.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I used 2nd focal plane scope for many years before LR shooting became a popular thing. There is no disadvantage if you practice with it, even converting mils to moa.
I use both today... but prefer 2nd focal plane for serious work, hunting or killing field work, for general survival. Your biggest threat will be up close and personal, where the 2nd focal plane 3X gives you fast acquisition you need to survive.. or make a fast running kill shot. And prefer the unsophisticated Leupold 3-10X Mark 4 USMC 3/4 mildot, used back in the day out to 1400 yds on any target that presents itself...for a general purpose carry rifle with maximum effective range for the 308 Win caliber, with components available then...the scope is still use it today. Good eyesight is the key and the 25 plus X scopes help bad or aging eyes...
Eyesight and experience, in Vietnam Hathcock killed an enemy at 2500 yds with 8X, most were 3-9X ...shooting a sniper out of a tree at 900 yds from a moving river patrol boat, on the Delta. Serious LR work with 2nd focal plane scopes of low power or straight power 10X or less making LR shots for very many years...no problem with good eyesight.
When the lights go out and no batteries available your 2nd FP, low powerd, mildot scope and old slide rule mil dot master still work, just memorize your enemies or targets measurements, & heights, like the height of common wheels on his vehicles, etc. Just like bracket the standing man reticle...or ya know its a 10" steel target, same deal. And being accurate for ranging on the highest power of 10x is no big deal, cause that's where its always at, unless you're on the move then it's 3X for a close fast engagement with a big reticle image in the scope, and knowing the range is of no consideration.

In the real world, you're not moving around with a scoped LR weapon as your primary when your threat is in a cqb environment.

Someone has been watching Gunny Beckett a bit too much this week.

 

[600]

Here's how it works in the real world in real conditions:

You have:

-FFP optic (domestic LE may opt for SFP, but that's a different application as distances are very short usually)
- at least one laser rangefinder. many times you'll have a backup
- kestrel or other such computer
- analog back up dope/da charts
- analog "cheat sheet" made for your intended prey/target

You'll use the electronics to range. Then either use your analog arm board or software to give you the firing solution.

If for some reason you are unable to range via laser, you will move to your "cheat sheet." This analog data will already have pre-solved ranges with the size of your intended prey/target in mils (or moa if you're one of the rare people still using that).

I.E. if you're hunting whitetail, you'll already have the math pre-solved. You measure from bottom of chest to top of back in your optic, see that its X mils tall....find that amount of mils in your cheat sheet and you get Y yards for the range. No math done in the field. Just a measurement in reticle and cross reference your cheat sheet.

You can do this with the average or known height or width of common things like doors and windows. Any other thing that has a fairly standard height or width.


That's it. There is no math done in the field under time/pressure. Anyone saying otherwise is a tactical Timmy like above.

Thanks a lot for the step by step procedure.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Thanks a lot for the step by step procedure.

It's the same thing when you arrive at a stand/hide. You start making a range chart with your laser. Making mental and actual notes. Like "single tree is X yards. Brushline is Y hards....etc, etc." Along with the solution next to each.

Then you only have to reference the range card when a target presents itself. Target steps out of the brush line, you look at your range card which has your dope/firing solution ready for you to use.


Point being, you do as much work as you can off the clock/not under pressure. When it's time to shoot, you only have to worry about applying the dope/solution, and making a good, fundamentally sound shot.

 

[FatBoy]

It's the same thing when you arrive at a stand/hide. You start making a range chart with your laser. Making mental and actual notes. Like "single tree is X yards. Brushline is Y hards....etc, etc." Along with the solution next to each.

Then you only have to reference the range card when a target presents itself. Target steps out of the brush line, you look at your range card which has your dope/firing solution ready for you to use.


Point being, you do as much work as you can off the clock/not under pressure. When it's time to shoot, you only have to worry about applying the dope/solution, and making a good, fundamentally sound shot.

A skill from the past I still used for all of my stand hunting, especially Bow hunting when my shoulders allows me to
draw. Every stand and box I used has(had) a range card with set TRPs. Wasn’t really necessary with black powder or rifle in Mid-TN. About 150y was as good as you getting in most wooded areas. Still, a very good practice, especially in short exposure lanes.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

A skill from the past I still used for all of my stand hunting, especially Bow hunting when my shoulders allows me to
draw. Every stand and box I used has(had) a range card with set TRPs. Wasn’t really necessary with black powder or rifle in Mid-TN. About 150y was as good as you getting in most wooded areas. Still, a very good practice, especially in short exposure lanes.

Agreed. This is one that isn't a "legacy" skill. This is still done in professional environments (and obviously in hunting as well).