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My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Also, The comment about me saying the trigger pull was 3 lbs and now 5.

3 lbs was just an estimation.
Upon measuring the trigger pull it was around 5 pounds.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I meant explain what you're talking about.
Making vague comments isnt very helpful. </div></div>

I was far from vague in my post...and as someone else used to like to say, you've been led to water.

In all honesty I was avoiding hurting your feelers with a scope quality comment. You seem pretty proud of it, but you have to realize it may in fact BE the main problem. I don't own one of them and that's likely on purpose.

What I told you here is what I've done for many years now on run of the mill hunting rifles, that with a tuned handload, will shoot circles around your rifle right now in it's present condition. It works for me to go to those minor efforts.

Take it or leave it, your choice.

It's my belief based on what you've said that you have within your system a series of compounding errors ranging from your ability, to the rifle's current state of mechanical rightousness, to the glass itself. One or two or three small things are making something else look worse. It is unlikely you will find the one single fix-all to yeild what you are looking for. Changing ammo is a good place to start, but if the rest of it is sub-par then you are still pissing up a rope. Torquing the base screws is just as important as torqing the rings. Your base looks like an EGW in the pic, they come with torque specs for a reason. An unbedded (read not mated correctly to the receiver) and loose base kills "accuracy" just as fast as bad ammo. You may think it's tight, but if it's not torqued to spec then you can't know for sure. Those base screws are the precise connection between the scope and rifle, the foundation...get it? Torque 'em and remove that possible variable. Feel free to omit anything you can't bear to try, it's your rifle and I've wasted enough time on it.

Remember you came on here asking about your shitty shooting rifle...my rifles all shoot just fine, and that's on purpose too.

Peace out pup......
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

^^^ you ask you shall receive....
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I meant explain what you're talking about.
Making vague comments isnt very helpful. </div></div>

I was far from vague in my post...and as someone else used to like to say, you've been led to water.

In all honesty I was avoiding hurting your feelers with a scope quality comment. You seem pretty proud of it, but you have to realize it may in fact BE the main problem. I don't own one of them and that's likely on purpose.

What I told you here is what I've done for many years now on run of the mill hunting rifles, that with a tuned handload, will shoot circles around your rifle right now in it's present condition. It works for me to go to those minor efforts.

Take it or leave it, your choice.

It's my belief based on what you've said that you have within your system a series of compounding errors ranging from your ability, to the rifle's current state of mechanical rightousness, to the glass itself. One or two or three small things are making something else look worse. It is unlikely you will find the one single fix-all to yeild what you are looking for. Changing ammo is a good place to start, but if the rest of it is sub-par then you are still pissing up a rope. Torquing the base screws is just as important as torqing the rings. Your base looks like an EGW in the pic, they come with torque specs for a reason. An unbedded (read not mated correctly to the receiver) and loose base kills "accuracy" just as fast as bad ammo. You may think it's tight, but if it's not torqued to spec then you can't know for sure. Those base screws are the precise connection between the scope and rifle, the foundation...get it? Torque 'em and remove that possible variable. Feel free to omit anything you can't bear to try, it's your rifle and I've wasted enough time on it.

Remember you came on here asking about your shitty shooting rifle...my rifles all shoot just fine, and that's on purpose too.

Peace out pup...... </div></div>

The glass? Yeah im proud of it, because its so far, the first thing i can say is "mine." I worked hard for the money i earned to pay for it, the rifle, the parts, etc. Managing work, school, and family its difficult to fiddle with this, and the ideal solution for anyone is something quick, simple and effective. Im sure i do have a large amount of errors in my system, But at least im asking for help. And you've got to learn somewhere, and you sure has hell cant learn without making alot of mistakes along the way. Yeah, i've made mistakes, and no i dont want to fuck with the base, because like ive said, we have hunting rifles, that shoots hand loads, that shoot circles around most rifles, including mine. Did we torque the base down? No. Did we Torque the screws down? No.
That being said, i was looking for other possibilities other than the base screws, which is going to be a pain to get out, due to them being lock tightened. And since it has never been an issue with our other rifles i overlook it. But since the possibilities are winding down to a few key things, ive got to start taking yours and others word for it.
Im not going to apologize at the fact that i dont have 1,000+ dollars to spend on a leupold or Nightforce, and in my current position i cant see myself spending more than what i did on a scope. Would it be worth the money? Yeah im sure its top notch quality, but for my uses i doubt it would be worth wild. And from the reviews i've read, people i've talked to etc the vortex viper is one of the best scopes for the price.
Now you, being an older guy, no offense. Have been around alot longer than i have, and have learned from experience. My dad scoffed at me when i was getting a rifle, and that the scope i was looking at is 500 dollars, and the stock is 500 etc. He shoots a 7mm mag, handloads, and a decent nikon scope. We both have shot this rifle and it consistently hold 1/2" groups, which is plenty good enough for him.

So I guess I'll end this little spiel on this note. I apologize for stubbornness, ignorance, blatant disregard to seemingly obvious information for the experienced shooter. I have forgotten that the majority of people on this site are more experienced than me. So i'll buy a torque driver, tear everything down, Re assemble every thing including the base/action/rings to spec. Check for scope alignment and lap the rings if need be. I could polish a turd and keep the SPS-V stock with the effort and money spent into that, but im planning on upgrading anyways, so a B&C will be in my sights.. With the money/time spent into this rifle, i mind as well take the time to do it right, rather than rush it to try and see results.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

I'm very interested to see what comes of using a torque wrench to try to improve accuracy. I guess it could make a difference but I've personally NEVER used a torque wrench to assemble or re-assemble anything on a rifle and I've never had accuracy issues because of it. I've been shooting for over 30 years and I'm still waiting to see some sort of "'before and after" proof of torque making a difference. It's not that hard of an experiment. I've done it with my bolt-guns and haven't seen a difference.

I hate to go against another member's recommendation like this and I truly hope using a torque wrench makes it all better. I just wanted you hear the flip-side in case it doesn't make it all better. That said, you gotta at least try it so you can check it off the list. FWIW...
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

Take it to a good gun smith and have the trigger adjusted to 2.5 lbs this will cost around 55 to 65$. If this does not help then go after the stock. Which I don't disagree with anybody by saying changing the stock will help a lot but the trigger may help more than you would think. I think midway usa has the 700p stock on sale for $289.00. Hope this helps you out.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm very interested to see what comes of using a torque wrench to try to improve accuracy.... </div></div>

Can't speak for others but I'm at a minimum trying to dance around this kids' tender feelers...he's already stated he was offended in this thread by someone telling him raw truth for advice. Not recommending "torque" for the sake of torquing screws...I think his base is fucking loose, among other small things that I would normally address as normal gun set-up, and affecting his POI. He's not grasping how a minuscule random recoil-driven shift of his scope mounting system can throw his hits around his POA. Personally I wouldn't bother torquing the base without first bedding it to the reciever. Torquing to spec is insurance against "not tight enough"....that's why threaded fasteners world round are torqued in the first place.

This isn't rocket science.....
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm very interested to see what comes of using a torque wrench to try to improve accuracy.... </div></div>

Can't speak for others but I'm at a minimum trying to dance around this kids' tender feelers...he's already stated he was offended in this thread by someone telling him raw truth for advice. Not recommending "torque" for the sake of torquing screws...I think his base is fucking loose, among other small things that I would normally address as normal gun set-up, and affecting his POI. He's not grasping how a minuscule random recoil-driven shift of his scope mounting system can throw his hits around his POA. Personally I wouldn't bother torquing the base without first bedding it to the reciever. Torquing to spec is insurance against "not tight enough"....that's why threaded fasteners world round are torqued in the first place.

This isn't rocket science.....
</div></div>

Please by all means, dont hold back. I highly doubt its loose, but for the sake of argument ill try it
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The glass? Yeah im proud of it, because its so far, the first thing i can say is "mine." I worked hard for the money i earned to pay for it, the rifle, the parts, etc.</div></div>

That may be the case but it doesn't ensure the scope is without fault. Suck up your pride and try another scope that is proven and rule out that issue. That's what a true rifle looney would do. I bought a ford truck one time that I was proud as hell of. Cool looking, jacked up 4X4, V8, mud slingin' tires...turned out to be a huge pile of crap that I had to put a lot more money into to get it right. My pride started to wane a little after the new short block was ordered. There's been a woman or two as well that I was pretty proud of....in the beginning....and more money never did fix them.

Etc........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Managing work, school, and family its difficult to fiddle with this, and the ideal solution for anyone is something quick, simple and effective.
</div></div>

I wish I was your age again...life was so much more easy and uncomplicated. Regarding the rifle, you need to realize that you have to rule out things and fix that which isn't right. You are from what I call "The Me, Now" generation, always looking for the quick/easy way out of a problem. Most of the time that's not going to apply to accuracy issues in a rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Im sure i do have a large amount of errors in my system, But at least im asking for help. And you've got to learn somewhere, and you sure has hell cant learn without making alot of mistakes along the way.
</div></div>

Arguing with the advice/answers you get isn't going to fix your rifle......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yeah, i've made mistakes, and no i dont want to fuck with the base, because like ive said, we have hunting rifles, that shoots hand loads, that shoot circles around most rifles, including mine. Did we torque the base down? No. Did we Torque the screws down? No.
</div></div>

Each rifle is an individual, remember? THIS one might benefit from making sure the base is tight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That being said, i was looking for other possibilities other than the base screws, which is going to be a pain to get out, due to them being lock tightened.
</div></div>

Can you get your hands on a soldering iron? Loc-tite is a NON ISSUE with heat applied to the screw head. That said, I never loc-tite a base screw, torquing to spec is sufficient for what I shoot....just sayin'.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Im not going to apologize at the fact that i dont have 1,000+ dollars to spend on a leupold or Nightforce, and in my current position i cant see myself spending more than what i did on a scope. Would it be worth the money? Yeah im sure its top notch quality, but for my uses i doubt it would be worth wild. And from the reviews i've read, people i've talked to etc the vortex viper is one of the best scopes for the price.
</div></div>

You don't need thousands of dollars to make a rifle shoot, which is the ENTIRE point of my first post on this thread. Make a few things right and rule out the possibilities. Regarding your choice of vortex scope, a buddy of mine jumped on that bandwagon and tried two of them, both failed and he now has Leups back on his rifles. I've never had an issue with a leupold, personally, and I'd be more inclined to purchase a used one before I'd purchase a new vortex....but that's just me. I also do not own a NF, but would like to someday. Until then I tend to go with what has never failed me, leupold. My kid has a $200 leupold VX1, which I had M1 turrets installed, on his .308....plenty of scope for a hunting rifle and it does fine for him. Just sayin'......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now you, being an older guy, no offense. Have been around alot longer than i have, and have learned from experience. My dad scoffed at me when i was getting a rifle, and that the scope i was looking at is 500 dollars, and the stock is 500 etc. He shoots a 7mm mag, handloads, and a decent nikon scope. We both have shot this rifle and it consistently hold 1/2" groups, which is plenty good enough for him.</div></div>

My dad owns three firearms; an ancient mossberg smoothbore bolt action 20 gauge shotgun that he deer hunted with, a marlin 69A .22, and a S&W .22 revolver...Needless to say he was never that much into shooting. I didn't get much from him in my youth per shooting, or per firearms. Consider yourself blessed with your dad scoffing at you. I had to learn everything from trial and error, and I'm quite sure the trials and errors are not over yet because I'm still here on this planet.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So I guess I'll end this little spiel on this note. I apologize for stubbornness, ignorance, blatant disregard to seemingly obvious information for the experienced shooter. I have forgotten that the majority of people on this site are more experienced than me. So i'll buy a torque driver, tear everything down, Re assemble every thing including the base/action/rings to spec. Check for scope alignment and lap the rings if need be. I could polish a turd and keep the SPS-V stock with the effort and money spent into that, but im planning on upgrading anyways, so a B&C will be in my sights.. With the money/time spent into this rifle, i mind as well take the time to do it right, rather than rush it to try and see results. </div></div>

I simply told you what I would do if it were mine. Do as you wish, but if you are going to do anything, start at the foundation of it all. You got a little improvment with an ammo change, but in my opinion it should do MUCH better than 1 MOA @ 100 yards...because I've been right where you are a few times. Most of it is just spending a little time checking things out and looking for problems. Learn how to bed the base onto the reciever. It's a Rem 700, chances are it is bowing and shifting a little, bedding and torqing it will rule it out, trust me. Seriously, check out the mag box and see if it is binding the action, if it doesn't wiggle a little with the stock bolts tight then it needs to be made a little looser in the stock. Binding that mag box WILL bow the action and cause you problems.

With the random POI shifts that you describe the things that immediately jump out at me is/are; barrel contact in the stock, poor action to stock fit, loose action, mag box binding, loose base, bad trigger, a problem with the scope, bad ammo, shooter error, etc. Change one thing at a time if you want to LEARN what the problem is. It may not be just one thing and changing several things one at a time will show improvement as you go along. If you want to just fix it as fast as possible then make the system as rightous as possible and then look for an improvement.

Wish it weren't near freezing rain here, I'd go shooting today instead of typing on the damn internet..........
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

Before you shoot, get a paint-pen and mark the action and scope ring screws. Also, mark the scope just in front of the rings. The idea: you'll immediately notice any movement between components via the witness marks, and it won't cost you $80 for a torque wrench.

If you're seeing zero movement and still can't figure it out, PM me. We live in the same town, and I'll help you sort out your rifle if necessary.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazlo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you're seeing zero movement and still can't figure it out, PM me. We live in the same town, and I'll help you sort out your rifle if necessary. </div></div>

An offer that likely shouldn't be refused.....
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

Just because the scope is new, doesn't mean it's not a lemon. I've had brand new shit fail on me before, it's annoying as hell to figure out. See if you can nab the scope off your dad's rifle for an afternoon to check.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

I would just go ahead and get a torque wrench, it will pay for itself in the future even if it isn't the solution to this particular issue. I picked up the Wheeler and discovered a lot of action screws among my rifles that had gotten loosened up over time. I think some rifles are very sensitive to proper torque values on the action screws. Plus, if you're mounting your own optics you don't want to take a risk and screw up an expensive scope by guessing and over-tightening your rings.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PoniesWhee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just go ahead and get a torque wrench, it will pay for itself in the future even if it isn't the solution to this particular issue. I picked up the Wheeler and discovered a lot of action screws among my rifles that had gotten loosened up over time. I think some rifles are very sensitive to proper torque values on the action screws. Plus, if you're mounting your own optics you don't want to take a risk and screw up an expensive scope by guessing and over-tightening your rings. </div></div>

Exactly...

IMHO, a torque wrench is a must have tool.

Lots here that is/are "affordable"..........
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

When you get one, you will find 1001 uses for it around the house/shop. In a few months everything in your house will be torqued to the proper spec!! lol

Seriously though, I had people give me shit because I spent a few dollars on the Wheeler FAT wrench because "they never needed one in their day and they did just fine". Well, what they fail to mention is how many times they chased down a problem with a base or scope and ended up changing it out, blaming the component and unknowingly fixing the problem in the process of remounting the scope. So they spent much more money replacing a "bad" optic, "shitty" rings or a "crooked-ass" base because they were too stubborn to pay attention to torque specs. They are also the guys that could shoot 1/2" groups all day long and used their rifle once or twice a year to shoot a deer "at least 500 yards away". It is a GREAT investment, and will take a variable out of the equation when dealing with problems like the ones you are experiencing.

Don't forget when dealing with ring caps, if you have them out of whack to badly, they could bend your main tube and trash your brand new scope. That is a big reason to make sure they are torqued down evenly with a precision tool.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

Lots of really good suggestions have been made here. If you use all the suggestions, I'm sure the rifle will shoot better, but you won't know which change made the difference unless you try only one thing at a time.

I think the comment about scopes is something to think about. It isn't the cost of the scope that makes a difference. Some times scopes just have odd problems..even new ones. I had one scope that was supposed to be really good, and ended up returning it for a refund after trying 3 replacements from the company.

In most scopes I can see the reticle move a bit when either the rifle fires, or when working the bolt, or resetting the trigger on an AR. In the scopes I ended up returning, I couldn't see any problem, but the rifle just wouldn't hold zero...much like yours.

My suggestion would be to see if the relative whose rifle shoots quarter inch groups will be kind enough to let you try out his scope. You know that the scope works, or he couldn't shoot quarter inch groups. Whether the scope changes how your rifle shoots or not will give you lots of information.

Torque is important, as is bedding, free floating, and trigger adjustment. So is how the rifle is held, or braced between shots. Any change in anything will effect the shot.

My suggestion is try correcting one variable at a time. Continue going through variables until the rifle shoots, or you send it back for repair:

1. insure all screws are correctly tightened (stock,base, rings, scope)
2. insure the magazine system isn't binding and putting stress on the action
3. use really good ammo
4. bed the rifle
5. free float the barrel
6. clean the barrel down to bare metal, then give it a chance to foul before testing
7. adjust the trigger down to a light pull
8. change how you brace the rifle on the bench
9. try a different scope
10. let another proven shooter try the rifle
11. make sure it isn't wind causing the shift in impact
12. make sure you don't change ANYTHING from shot to shot
13. work on flinch/blinking. Dummy rounds are great for that
14. work on follow through. This applies to holding the rifle, pulling the trigger, and keeping things steady until well AFTER the shot has gone off. It isn't good enough to follow through up to the time when you pull the trigger.
16. check the crown of the muzzle for nicks or defects
17. make sure there isn't any junk in the bolt lug recesses, and that the chamber
is really clean
18. check any scope you use for parallax at the distance you are shooting, as it makes a huge difference
19. make sure you don't ever have any crescent shaped shadow inside the scope when you shoot. An ill fitting stock tends to cause people to have shadow in the scope, and if you are really tall and the stock doesn't fit you right, shadow may be creeping into your rifle
20. make sure the stock fits your face as well as shoulder. You shouldn't have to feel like you are squirming around to get a full circle of light in the scope.

That oughta keep you busy for a while. Hopefully, you will eventually find the cause. Statistically speaking, the chances of it being a defective rifle and not one of the above variables is pretty small.

Good luck, and Merry Christmas to all.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazlo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're seeing zero movement and still can't figure it out, PM me. We live in the same town, and I'll help you sort out your rifle if necessary. </div></div>

What Tripwire said, times eleventybillion.

There are also two ways of looking at this ENTIRE post.

#1. You came here looking for help. Help has been offered...a lot. Even a lot of the same advice has been offered more than once.

#2. If you are going to disregard advice, why ask in the first place?

That aside, from a mechanics point of view, please bear with me.
If you do not know for exact certain that something is exactly within spec, and you don't know if that is or is NOT the problem, just fix it. That will make sure that it IS NOT a problem. Just throwing money at something that people say is a problem may not be that at all. I have replaced MANY computers in cars that turned out to be a .49 cent sensor that had a melted wire. I am just saying.

Start from scratch. Make sure barrel is not touching anything but the receiver, bed the receiver, make sure bottom metal/mag is not binding in the stock, remove scope, rings and base then bed the base and torque, mount rings and make sure you have good contact (by lapping if you can find the tool), torque the bottom rings down where they belong, mount scope and torque properly to spec.

Also, you said you were tall (dont remember figure), but make sure that the stock fits correctly. Read this article: Fitting the rifle stock

If the stock is a problem, get it fixed first. No point in going to TONS of work on a stock that is not going to fit you. It matters. Trust me. Trust others on this site.

Make sure you have good cheek weld in ALL positions (prone, sitting, standing, benchrest...everything). Adjust parallax also matters. Trust me. It WILL throw shots 7 to 8 inches all over the place. I can not remember what scope you have, but please check this out.

I dont know what other advice to offer.

OGRE
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

Thanks for the advice.
As for the Lazlo's post, it will not be.
As for unknown's post I will grab my uncle or dads scope soon.
And follow your list.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

My vote is to dremel the contact point from inside the barrel channel.

Pull the stock off, grind down the tab, and replace the stock.

I don't have a torque wrench for in/lbs (one is on the list of things to get) but I have pulled the stock off several of my rifles and put them back on and as long as they were tight they would not give me any troubles like you are having.

snug the stock up front screw first and as you tighten the rear screw hold the action to the stock with your other hand and try to feel if the action pulls into the stock. if it does then the action is flexing and could be your problem.

If you can shoot a 7mm Mag and get under an inch then I'm not going to say you are pulling the shots on a 308......so thats a moot point and done deal as far as i'm concerned!

Then the man can shoot and he is not pulling the shots 5"! to the right! (If you want to argue this please re-read above paragraph!)

I would suspect the stock.....double check everything....Bases, rings, scope from another rifle, action screws..etc. I know this is a pain in the ass, but if you want it to shoot well it is all worth it in the end....trust me
wink.gif


the dremel (or hell a razor blade) and about 15-20min COULD solve your problem and is worth a shot....try it!

I'm done
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Togeneral99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My vote is to dremel the contact point from inside the barrel channel.

Pull the stock off, grind down the tab, and replace the stock.

I don't have a torque wrench for in/lbs (one is on the list of things to get) but I have pulled the stock off several of my rifles and put them back on and as long as they were tight they would not give me any troubles like you are having.

snug the stock up front screw first and as you tighten the rear screw hold the action to the stock with your other hand and try to feel if the action pulls into the stock. if it does then the action is flexing and could be your problem.

If you can shoot a 7mm Mag and get under an inch then I'm not going to say you are pulling the shots on a 308......so thats a moot point and done deal as far as i'm concerned!

Then the man can shoot and he is not pulling the shots 5"! to the right! (If you want to argue this please re-read above paragraph!)

I would suspect the stock.....double check everything....Bases, rings, scope from another rifle, action screws..etc. I know this is a pain in the ass, but if you want it to shoot well it is all worth it in the end....trust me
wink.gif


the dremel (or hell a razor blade) and about 15-20min COULD solve your problem and is worth a shot....try it!

I'm done </div></div>

Thanks for the tip!
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

I agree with most, I have shot some power points just to see how they grouped and I had the same results
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crawdad1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with most, I have shot some power points just to see how they grouped and I had the same results </div></div>

The very first group i shot that day was with Power Points
They were 1/2 to inch groups. I was tickled so i shot the Hornady, they were 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Then as i shot more the POI shifted to the right about 3 inches, then further to the right about 6-7 inches from POA.
Still wont be shooting them anymore
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Once again I'm going to strongly suspect that the stock might be at fault here.

My old 700 had the same style stock, and while it didn't have this obvious of a shift, the stock simply couldn't ever be made to properly free-float. Gouging out the entire channel and then filling in every honeycomb in the forend with epoxy still wasn't enough to prevent flex in the stock just in front of the recoil lug recess. It might've helped a bit, but it wasn't much of a fix. I can't say that the groups were screamingly horrible, but they certainly didn't come close to the potential of a decent 700 with match ammo. If you do the work yourself and don't spend anything on supplies then I suppose it can't hurt to try it on your rifle, but it may damage the already-minimal resale value of the stock if you do start modifying the forend.

It's easy to tell someone to go try a dozen different ideas, from bedding the rifle to buying a new trigger or a new scope, but if you don't have money none of those suggestions have any real bearing. The big obvious problems (like shooting 150gr Power Point) are the ones that need to be addressed first, and it sounds like that's exactly what's being done. With a several thousand dollar budget, the problems can undoubtedly be trouble-shooted out within a few days by replacing everything but the action, but barring that all you can do is carefully inspect the system and take things one step at a time.

Given the financial limitations in play, I'd recommend trying to borrow components and narrow down the issue that way first. See if you can swap scopes from someone else's rifle (perhaps your uncle's?) for a day, and see if that shows the same problem. Check around if anyone in your area has an AICS or similar stock that you might be able to drop your rifle in temporarily, and then go on from there.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackside</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Save for an AICS.. </div></div>

Oh if i could only justify spending that much on a stock.

As for swapping the scope, I'll run it by my uncle, if he's not up for it then i'll snatch my dads scope for a day. As for the stock. I dont know any shooters with an AICS or similar stock.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackside</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Save for an AICS.. </div></div>

SRT should donate one
laugh.gif
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MAGUA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackside</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Save for an AICS.. </div></div>

SRT should donate one
laugh.gif
</div></div>

Im up for that
smile.gif
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

For what its worth, Every time i shoot i adjusted parallax to near perfection. I followed the fundamentals, took my time and folloiwed through. Yeah i still blinked but from what i could see it had no major effect on my groups. My uncled performed equally with the rifle and he is a proven shooter. The 1st weekend i shot with the new scope, i zeroed it, groups were good in the beginning, and then spread out and to the right. I hadnt messed with the scope, everything was the same the following weekend i went shooting except for the ammo. First groups were with the power points, .5 inch groups. Then with the A-MAX's. 1/2 or so groups. The gun was still on zero. If the gun shifted 6-7 inches the first weekend and then came back to zero, then shifted 7 inches from zero the following weekend i dont believe its the scope or a screw, may be though. Im going to retorque all screws and remount the base to spec..If it doesnt improve i'll send it off to Remington.

I talked to a rep at remington and he said it sounds like a barrel issue and hasnt heard of anything before my rifle. And recommended sending the rifle in with pics of the targets and a write up of the problem. I dont plan on messing with the stock at the moment, because it will void the warranty.
I called remington today, and they said even with the possibility of a bad scope, and poor mounting, the rifle wouldnt likely return to zero as it does. If they cant figure out the issue ill either get a new stock, or free float and bed this one.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

If you are going to return it to Remington, you are smart to NOT do anything that might void the warranty. Most companies are pretty good, but every once in a while you get someone just looking for a way to not fix things because you voided the warranty. Like you, I would be cautious about doing things that might void the warranty.

Doing all the testing and adjusting costs time, and money for ammo. I would evaluate whether it is worth it to continue messing with it yourself vs just returning it to Remington and have them sort it out using their ammo, time, staff, while you just have a cold one..

If you ask really nice, they might even send you a call tag that would save you the cost of shipping it back. FN did that for me a couple of times, and I really appreciated them being willing to save me the $30-40 bucks in shipping.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to return it to Remington, you are smart to NOT do anything that might void the warranty. Most companies are pretty good, but every once in a while you get someone just looking for a way to not fix things because you voided the warranty. Like you, I would be cautious about doing things that might void the warranty.

Doing all the testing and adjusting costs time, and money for ammo. I would evaluate whether it is worth it to continue messing with it yourself vs just returning it to Remington and have them sort it out using their ammo, time, staff, while you just have a cold one..

If you ask really nice, they might even send you a call tag that would save you the cost of shipping it back. FN did that for me a couple of times, and I really appreciated them being willing to save me the $30-40 bucks in shipping. </div></div>

Thanks for the heads up, im contemplating sending it off to them.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

hey bud am feeling your pain.

just bought a rem 700 .308 sf, after getting a mate to set up for me and load some rounds on the weekend was getting the same kinds of problems with groups even at 50 yards.

in my case i can rule out...
ammo - was loaded for me using quality components
torque settings - was torqed to spec using a torq wrench

so far am leaning towards a problem with stock as it does seem to have a lot of flex in it.

fortunately i have a friend with a spare 700p stock sitting around that i may be able to test out on my rifle on the next visit to the range. hopefully this will fix the problem until i get my manners t5a stock which is on order. will let you know how i go after my next visit to the range if you haven't already sorted your problem.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

There's a lot of good advice here from guys shooting the same gun and ammo that you are.

All I'd like to add is that you should focus on one issue at a time and try to assess/eliminate that as a contributory factor or source of the problem.

And track/note the changes you make....

Otherwise, if you change a whole bunch of things at once, you won't know what change had what effect.....you'll be chasing you tail from now until hell freezes over

It is never easy when you are on a limited budget - we'd all like McM or AICS, S&B/Zeiss glass and a never ending supply of FGMM.

It's great to see your pride in your gear and I understand that you are proud at having worked hard to buy it. I respect that.

But if I've learned one thing in my shooting experience, it is that the search for perfection, whether it is gear or technique, never stops and those bills just keep coming!

Wish you good luck with it and hope you get it straightened out!
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

Have you checked around here for an HS 700P take off stock? They are pretty common and are usually sold for around $200.
 
Re: My Rifle - UPDATED 12-11-10 (Pics)

I say it again its the stock, do what the guy at the range said, if you take apart your rifle you will see where its contacting, remington has put 2 small blocks at the end of the stock that contact the barrel, if you don't believe me try the dollar bill test, try sliding a bill down between the barrel and the sock then shoot it a few times and try it again Im betting you wont be able to get it thru.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Tripwire and others gave you good advice.Lazlo made you a good offer,you should consider it.You need to decide if you will send your rifle back to Remington,or not.If so,don't work on it.If not,refer to Tripwire and others.As for buying tools:If you remain interested in this game you will use them over and over.Consider them an investment.If you were near me,I would help you fix your rifle. Good Luck, Pete
Edit to add,I do most of this stuff to a new rifle before it ever sees the range for the first time.IT WORKS!
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Well its going on week four, the rifles at Remington, i called and they said its still on the work bench. Eager to get it back and get back to shooting!
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Interesting thread so far, seems as if ha;f the folks here are talking to you like a three year old. Just because you are young doesn't mean you are an idiot. While I agree it may be a problem with the stock, that would be pretty drastic results for a stock issue. I am starting to think the barrel may not have been prpoerly stress relieved from the factory. With even a mild amount of heat introduced from shooting, it starts wandering pretty far. I hope Remington takes care if it and gets you a rifle that shoots. I appreciate you at your age getting into shooting as a hobby instead of dicking all your money away on something that won't benefit you in 5 years. I'm also suprised nobody has offered you a deal or a freebie HS Precision take off stock. If I had one, it would be on it's way to you. Keep us updated when you get your rifle back.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)


I'll put a small wager on the fact that you have a stock that was warped at some point in the molding process. You have all the earmarks of a stock problem and after having just taken off my SPS-V's stock, I can say with some comfort, that it's a flaming chunk of crap.

The other thing I'd suggest is running a trigger gauge and looking to see how yours is behaving. I finally ditched mine and went with a Timney because I couldn't get the factory trigger to any sort of consistency. I'd weigh it at 3 pounds, then 5.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

A 3 pound trigger pull makes it challening to shoot small groups too. Atleast it does for me.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How far forward is your Bipod? If you load the bipod and the stock flexes a little the barrel could be touching it when it's fired. Floated barrel touching stock when fired... Bad JuJu...</div></div>

This is mostly likely a factor...I have one of these guns just like the one you have in that picture...and when I have my gun resting on my bi-pod the stock touches the barrel.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Its the stock. For example my father bought a 270 winchester with a Mcgowen barrel, Timneey trigger that had been trued. The guy he bought it from boasted on how accurate it was. But he switched out the stock on it and sold it with a crappy Ramline plastic stock. So I loaded some stuff up and took it out. It was very inconsistant just like your rifle. Needless to say I was pissed. So I took it home and cleaned it then orded a Bell and Carlson stock with the aluminum bedding block. Took it out last weeked and all 3 shots were touching at 100 yards.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting thread so far, seems as if ha;f the folks here are talking to you like a three year old. Just because you are young doesn't mean you are an idiot. While I agree it may be a problem with the stock, that would be pretty drastic results for a stock issue. I am starting to think the barrel may not have been prpoerly stress relieved from the factory. With even a mild amount of heat introduced from shooting, it starts wandering pretty far. I hope Remington takes care if it and gets you a rifle that shoots. I appreciate you at your age getting into shooting as a hobby instead of dicking all your money away on something that won't benefit you in 5 years. I'm also suprised nobody has offered you a deal or a freebie HS Precision take off stock. If I had one, it would be on it's way to you. Keep us updated when you get your rifle back. </div></div>

Yeah thats the reason why i was getting offended, but whatever.
Ill report back with this thread when i get it back
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Did I miss something?

Did you get it back from Remington? Or are they doing this work?
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seekers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did I miss something?

Did you get it back from Remington? Or are they doing this work?

</div></div>

+ 1
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seekers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did I miss something?

Did you get it back from Remington? Or are they doing this work?

</div></div>

Sorry, i meant to upload the pics but i didnt.
They sent the rifle back, with a cutout of two targets, showing a 1/2" group with 168gr bullets at 100 yards, and about a 3/4" group at 100 yards with 180gr bullets i believe. Anyways, no return letter, email or anything. Took it to Steve Nicholas, a former Army Guard Marksman Team coach and long time competition shooter,(30+ years) he said before trashing the stock and stuff, have it worked on, its cheaper than buying a new stock. So, the gun club has a very talented gun smith, who is a good friend of my uncles, who is willing to work on the rifle for a small fee. Steve said to get back with him when the work is complete, and he will teach me everything he knows about shooting. We took the gun out of the stock, noticed a collar near the end of the stock that is rubbing on the barrel, The bolt face is worn on one side, so I might have it trued up/refaced, but thats minuscule. And the action bedded with the stock, just past the recoil lug. This should fix the problems, if not, we will mount a proven scope on the rifle and test from there. Everything will be mounted to exact spec. and 100% correctly.
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

Where you unable to duplicate the groups achieved by Remington of .50 and .75?
These seem to be pretty respectable groups that most would be happy to get from this stock, non-bedded rifle.

Seekers
 
Re: My Rifle - Whats wrong with my groups? (Pics)

When i shot the rifle with Hornady match ammo it would hold 1/2", maybe less groups, but after 10 rounds, it would drastically shift to the right, by about 7 inches.
In the letter i sent with my rifle to remington, i asked them to shoot a target consecutively past 10-15 rounds, of course they didnt though.
The barrel is contacting on the left part of the stock pretty badly though. So im hoping thats the main problem
 
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