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Range Report Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

srt1302

srt1302

TX LEO
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2005
35
0
Van Alstyne, TX
My PD currently issues LC 55 FMJ ammo for duty ammo. We used to carry Horandy TAP 55gr up until about 4 years ago. Some us went to a patrol rifle class and the instructors recommended FMJ for 2 reasons: cost and the military uses it. They showed ballistic tables showing the effect of FMJ vs the other ammo out there. Honestly the FMJ performed better than most of the ammo it went up against.

The admin has come to me and asked me to get more info on the subject. I have tried to locate as much info as I can and just can't find what I need.

Can someone email ([email protected]) me any documents they have from your agency so that I can submit it.

Thanks,
srt205
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: srt205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...instructors recommended FMJ for 2 reasons: cost and the military uses it. They showed ballistic tables showing the effect of FMJ vs the other ammo out there. Honestly the FMJ performed better than most of the ammo it went up against.</div></div>I take it this is .223 ammo you are talking about, in which case the type of ammo, even the type of FMJ ammo, makes a big difference with regard to its application.

That, and of course military needs are different from LE needs, so if the instructors are not differentiating between the two either they aren't willing to do the mental math or they don't know the difference.

In what way did the FMJ ammo perform better? Ballistics tables had FMJ military ammo performing better than 69gr or 77gr SMK? Really?

And what do you mean by FMJ ammo performed better than other ammo it went up against? On what targets? Do you mean terminal ballistics? If so, at what velocity? Are these short-barreled carbines you are using or precision rifles? For what application of the rifle? Do you mean better performance on hard targets or soft targets? What did the ammo go up against and how did it go up against it?

I'd love to help, but I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage after reading your post.....
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

Sorry, our ammo is 5.56. We are looking at hard or soft targets. I am not comparing the 55gr to 69gr SMK or 75gr SMK ammo since that is not an option for our patrol rifles. I now the match ammo is going to do better but I have to convince the admin of using better ammo rather than using something because it is cheaper.

I don't remember exactly what the performace was in the class. I remember them comparing the 55gr FMJ to Hornady 55gr TAP, Win 55gr Ballistic silver tip, and I think 55gr SP. The FMJ was more versitle for our needs if I remember right.

The concern that came up was over penatration with the FMJ.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

OK. So they're patrol rifles. But what are your needs, exactly? What's the patrol territory: city patrols mostly, or county?

You might find that FMJ over-penetrates at under 2500fps, but fragments at velocities above that. Of course, it all depends on what it hits first. Why do they want 55gr ammo instead of 45gr or 77gr? What's the barrel twist on the rifles?
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

we have both city and county areas. we help the county a lot. The place we by the ammo from offers 55gr, 62gr, 69gr and 75gr. the rifles are 1-9 twist.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

First, don't limit your ammo choice based on what your supplier sells. Can you defend your choice of ammo outside your department, to a third party, based on the answer "That's what he sells us"? I doubt it. Derive a legally defensible relevant reason for the choice of ammo.

For that, you need to look at your department policy regarding use of the rifles, and the training brief for those qualified and capable to have them in the cars. The ammo should then be chosen to best fit that projected use of the platform.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

I use a 1-9 twist and shoot the 75grn A-Max with match winning results, I would think you could go to the 69's without any problem.

We carry m-14's so I don't have anything first hand, but I would contact TAP and see what they say, maybe they have a presentation of sorts that you can take from to put something together.

We rarely if ever have to engage a hard target, and it's usually glass, (windshield, window), but over penetration is ALWAYS a concern. The trade off is a no brainer to me and therefore should stay away from a FMJ...

I would get on the phone and get in contact with these ammo makers and find out what will work for you. You don't want a frangible round but you also don't want a multiple wall punching FMJ. Hell even a hunting round - soft tip is close to that.

Train with FMJ, but really on something that's made for the task...
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunman_7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a 1-9 twist and shoot the 75grn A-Max with match winning results...We rarely if ever have to engage a hard target, and it's usually glass, (windshield, window), but over penetration is ALWAYS a concern. The trade off is a no brainer to me and therefore should stay away from a FMJ...You don't want a frangible round but you also don't want a multiple wall punching FMJ....Train with FMJ, but really on something that's made for the task...</div></div>1 in 9 won't always stabilize the 75's. .223 is notoriously bad at penetrating glass. FMJ over-penetration, without qualifying the statement, is a myth; penetration is dependent on velocity and bullet construction, even and especially when talking about FMJ. And it's a mistake, on so many levels, to train with ammo that you don't use.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

Click on this link, then click on the lower left hand corner where it says, "Ammunition Test Report & Application Guide"......it is a downloadable file in which you can provide ballistic testing from Hornady to your administration that compares the TAP ammo to other types......

http://www.hornadyle.com/
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

A 55 gr.tap round is what you want, but be warned that if you hit some one with this round in the vitals they probably won't servile the hit.So check with the department lawyers frist.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim Schiavi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 55 gr.tap round is what you want, but be warned that if you hit some one with this round in the vitals they probably won't servile the hit.So check with the department lawyers frist. </div></div>OK. But Why? Why? Why? and Why?

Why does he want that round? Why won't someone survive when hit with it? Why does this mean he has to check with lawyers? And why does his department have lawyers?
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty am

Look, it's easy...

1) Your in LE, so you need a round for your Patrol Officer's to shoot through their Patrol Rifles....

2) This round needs to have the ability to expand & fragment quickly in the human body instead of over-penetrating....

3) Several companies make this type of round.....check out that Hornady Report....

4) If you need a better penetrating round like a FMJ, then notate the reason for it & the circumstances where it will be needed through a Dept. policy.

5) Document....document.....document.....

When I first came to our Dept. rifles were not allowed to be carried by any Patrol Officer.....Even our top Firearms Training Officer (who was trainied as an instructor in rifles...)was forbidden to carry an AR15 in his trunk because our City Council were morons....

Then in a span of 9 months, we had two major shootings during the weekday in broad daylight. In each shooting more than 50+ rounds were fired. In the second shooting, the threat was ended when a Deputy showed up & fired only 4 rounds from his AR15 & ended the gun fight.

Our Chief used this to convince the City Council that the rifles were a much needed tool in protecting our Citizens through the use of a more accurate weapon system......

We started carrying rifles that same year.....document....document....document.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

we had a similar ammo confusion at my dept. we use match ammo with sierra hpbt. same as our sniper rifles FGM . surprising that our cheep , I mean chief went for that
eek.gif
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

The current .223 ammo we carry is either the Federal 62 grain tactical or the Winchester 60 gr That what the DEA is issuing us for our 14" Rock River Carbines. We practice with Federal 62 Eagle FMJ.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

Lake City 55 gr 5.56 is not a terrible choice.
At typical LE engagement distances it will fragment. Overpenetration is not a huge problem.

NO 5.56 made is good through glass or auto bodies.
To get reasonable performance, you must get a bonded core bullet.

For an entry team I would rather see 69 or 75 grain HPBT match bullets. The 55 grain 5.56 equivalent will work here also but is not the best answer.

For a patrol type environment, where you may encounter intermediate barriers like auto glass etc... the 64 grain power point, 64 grain gold dot or similar loads would work better.

Read here:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

Our duty ammo is Win 50grn ballistic silvertip. We train with 55 grn fmj. The 50 is a little lighter than I would prefer, but overall a good round for our AO. Contact Texagator here on the hide. He might be able to assist you. Also, you could almost throw a rock from your city limits and hit my house.....

Bill
Plano PD
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

We also use the Lake City 55 gr. ammo works good for what we use it for.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

I think this has already been said but check with your Dept lawyers.We had TAP rounds issued.(admin was ok with the cost) Then the lawyers told us they carried too much liability. SO we are back to FMJ for the cars and TAP rounds on the range...go figure???
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

I am curious about why the lawyers saw more liability in TAP.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

We use Winchester Ballistic Tip in our patrol program. I believe there are over 500+ rifles in use at this time. I'll see if I can dig up something but penetration was a big deterimining factor. With the WBST the round fragments and develops seperate wound cavities once it hits tough tissue or bone. It isn't recommended for shooting through barriers such as glass because of that property but will get the job done. You just have to be cognisant of the surroundings and background. Another reason we don't use FMJ is it tends to poke holes and not expand. We also use this in our SWAT entry weapons in 55 grain and a 62 grain Federal Tactical Bonded for barriers. In our precision rifles we use the 168 grain WBST and go to the 165 grain Federal Tactical Bonded for barriers. We have had numerous shootings with the patrol rifles and they all performed well. Our last one was with the WBST through annealed glass and then through acrylic and into the suspect.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BULLET SPONGE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the lawyers told us they carried too much liability. SO we are back to FMJ for the cars and TAP rounds on the range...</div></div>

You have got to be kidding...

Tell those lawyers to crawl back into their hole and that you'll rattle their cage if and when you need them... if you listen to those idiots you'll soon be unarmed lest you hurt someone.

Heaven forbid that the justification to use, what's that term, DEADLY FORCE might actually lead to some perp dying of a gunshot wound ! Mercy me...

Christ... WTF are those guys thinking you do for a living ? If you haven't figured out as a lawyer that sometimes good guys gotta shoot bad guys, and sometimes they die and that's OK, you need to return to your home planet before you get some poor Copper or crime victim killed. These fools actually think that you'd get in trouble for offing some ass clown in a situation where the shoot is justified based on what ammo you use ?

Better hope you don't carry any of that dangerous buckshot or shotgun slug ammo... and better shit can that OC and Taser because they too might be lethal in certain situations. WTF is the definition of "too lethal" anyway... you supposed to shoot to scare ?


Amazing... ef'n lawyer land lunacy.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parallax</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BULLET SPONGE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the lawyers told us they carried too much liability. SO we are back to FMJ for the cars and TAP rounds on the range...</div></div>

You have got to be kidding...

Tell those lawyers to crawl back into their hole and that you'll rattle their cage if and when you need them... if you listen to those idiots you'll soon be unarmed lest you hurt someone.

Heaven forbid that the justification to use, what's that term, DEADLY FORCE might actually lead to some perp dying of a gunshot wound ! Mercy me...

Christ... WTF are those guys thinking you do for a living ? If you haven't figured out as a lawyer that sometimes good guys gotta shoot bad guys, and sometimes they die and that's OK, you need to return to your home planet before you get some poor Copper or crime victim killed. These fools actually think that you'd get in trouble for offing some ass clown in a situation where the shoot is justified based on what ammo you use ?

Better hope you don't carry any of that dangerous buckshot or shotgun slug ammo... and better shit can that OC and Taser because they too might be lethal in certain situations. WTF is the definition of "too lethal" anyway... you supposed to shoot to scare ?


Amazing... ef'n lawyer land lunacy. </div></div>

Welcome to NY!! land of the free..but only if your lawyer says so.

Ohh we can't carry tasers! OC only. The people might have a heart attack from the shock.

You want to here a good one!!! They are "descussing" removing the "P.I.T" bars because they are too dangerous!!!
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim Schiavi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 55 gr.tap round is what you want, but be warned that if you hit some one with this round in the vitals they probably won't servile the hit.So check with the department lawyers frist. </div></div>

WTF! so much bullshit in here.


***********************************
<span style="color: #FF0000">THIS is THE place for the information the OP NEEDS http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91</span>
DocGKR is the guy you need to focus on.


TF used to be the place...
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

Both Hornady and Federal have reams of info on the performance of their LE ammo.

In addition you may want to look up anything written by Dr. Gary Roberts on terminal effects.

55gr FMJ is NOT what the military uses and is NOT what you want to use for so many different reasons.

We currently use Federal TRU223E which is a 55gr BTHP. It has provided one shot stops on both OIS that we have had where the rifle was used. One was a headshot and the suspect lived. One was a COM shot and the suspect was DRT. I would prefer that we used the Hornady 62gr TAP since it will stabilize in the 1:9 barrels that many of our guys use, but still give superior barrier performance compared to the 55gr Federal we use.

I realize that this is really anecdotal, but the amount of data that is out there is staggering. Don't buy into the hype. Do your own research and then do your own test-shoot's to back it up. Depending on the size of your agency some ammo companies may be happy to come out and do a demo for your brass.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: froggy2229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am curious about why the lawyers saw more liability in TAP.</div></div>

I'm curious too, I'd want the least penetration possible (TAP/Vmax) to limit collateral damage to unsuspecting bystanders.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

our pd uses FGMM ammo 168gr. in our bolt guns as well as a federal bonded bullet for glass penetration in bolt guns. in our ar platforms we use a federal bonded tactical bullet, it has preformed best for us and with the bonded bullet you get less bullet seperation through most media that a police officer would shoot through. in our duty pistols we use speer gold dot. 40caliber.

if you would like specific info shoot me an email and I'll be more than happy to get you all or our t/e info.

[email protected]
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GCMxVeGeTa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: froggy2229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am curious about why the lawyers saw more liability in TAP.</div></div>

I'm curious too, I'd want the least penetration possible (TAP/Vmax) to limit collateral damage to unsuspecting bystanders. </div></div>

Ohh its easy! Statistics state that suspects die more often when shot with TAP rounds rather than FMJ.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BULLET SPONGE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GCMxVeGeTa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: froggy2229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am curious about why the lawyers saw more liability in TAP.</div></div>

I'm curious too, I'd want the least penetration possible (TAP/Vmax) to limit collateral damage to unsuspecting bystanders. </div></div>

Ohh its easy! Statistics state that suspects die more often when shot with TAP rounds rather than FMJ. </div></div>

I guess they give new meaning to <span style="font-weight: bold">deadly</span> force.
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both Hornady and Federal have reams of info on the performance of their LE ammo.

In addition you may want to look up anything written by Dr. Gary Roberts on terminal effects.
</div></div>

He's moved. See my post
smile.gif
 
Re: Need some fellow LEO opinions on rifle duty ammo!!

Look at the Federal "Tactical" line of ammunition. It has gone through all of the FBI LE tests and the results are all documented with photographs and measurements. It penetrates glass and other materials that LE might encounter and passes with flying colors. The photo's of the penetration in gelatin blocks show the performance and clear comparison with other brands and bullet types. You will be very disappointed in results of FMJ ammunition as it fragments and has little penetration in these tests.

The tactical line is carried by many in my area and performed well in field conditions. This ammunition is sold in 55 and 62 grain and is currently backordered like all of the other ammunition.

It is sold only to LE and it is not inexpensive. This is not what you want to use for common practice but the price is cheap when it is needed.

This line is also manufactured in handgun ammunition and it also performs very well. I have carried it for years and have great confidence in it's ability.
 
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