PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[Rugster]

Where did I say anything about everything being a match DQ? An ND should be a match DQ no question. I believe there are different levels of severity as far as infractions and some warrant stage DQ and some warrant match DQ. Not sure if you’re addressing me with those comments but I haven’t said anything to the contrary.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No one gets a DQ for forgetting to leave the bolt back. Stop using that as an example.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, no one is getting DQ’d for suitcase carry unless they have been warned multiple times.

Stop using examples that don’t matter.

An ND is a match DQ for anyone regardless of skill level.

The 4 safety rules of firearms are known to all. Break them, and gtfo until next time. It’s covered in the safety brief.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No one has said “any violation” is a match Dq.

The only two that are:

Flagging

ND’s

Beginners know not to point their muzzle at someone. And they know the gun should only go off when they tell it to.

I don’t care if you just started shooting yesterday. Do either of those and fuck you until next match. Call it whatever you want.

Again, if your kid gets shot because a beginner had an ND, you won’t be stepping up to defend them.

 

[stevenc23]

The solution to the problem is easy IMO.

Implementing the solution on the other hand is another story.

Safety needs to become the number one priority to all shooters. All shooters need to feel obligated AND to comfortable point out any and all safety concerns REAL TIME.

The aviation industry learned this years ago and others organizations followed. The results speak for themselves. Industries that have embraced the safety culture have seen dramatic drop in injuries and accidents. Look up “high reliability organization”.

What they found was that for a very high percentage of the accidents/injuries was that there were red flags that people saw people were afraid to speak up for whatever reason. Once they were able to create an environment where anyone from the new guy on his first day on the job to the CEO could call a “cease fire” without fear of retribution the rate of accidents and injuries dropped. Anyone on the production line is obligated to stop the line if they see anything that is wrong.

Right now the majority of the shooters are either afraid or unwilling to call a cease-fire if they see something that might be wrong. This has to change and it has to come from the top.

DQ’ ing a shooter here or there won’t make things any safer in the long run (not saying shooters shouldn’t be DQ for safety violations).

If anyone sees anything potentially unsafe they should immediately call a cease-fire. This would probably necessitate a rule that if everything were found to be safe the shooter would have the choice of picking up the stage where they left off or starting the stage over.

Bottom line, Everyone has to buy in to the safety culture.

 

[LawnMM]

Also, no one is getting DQ’d for suitcase carry unless they have been warned multiple times.

Stop using examples that don’t matter.

An ND is a match DQ for anyone regardless of skill level.

The 4 safety rules of firearms are known to all. Break them, and gtfo until next time. It’s covered in the safety brief.

You should be getting DQ'd for suitcase carry, that's way more dangerous than some of the other offenses we're discussing.

Examples that don't matter, who decides that? You? I must have missed your election as the topics Lord and moderator.

No one has said “any violation” is a match Dq.

The only two that are:

Flagging

ND’s

Beginners know not to point their muzzle at someone. And they know the gun should only go off when they tell it to.

I don’t care if you just started shooting yesterday. Do either of those and fuck you until next match. Call it whatever you want.

Again, if your kid gets shot because a beginner had an ND, you won’t be stepping up to defend them.

Ruebenski made the argument that stage DQs don't make sense for safety violations, sounds to me like advocating match DQs for those offenses, not to mention the rest of the "one and done" crowd that's weighed in on this.

You just said nobody gets DQ'd for suitcase carry, which is flagging, then said anybody flagging gets the fuck you until next match, right? So which is it?

If you're unsafe on a stage, you're unsafe for the entire match. Stage DQs don't make any sense for safety violations

 

[LawnMM]

The solution to the problem is easy IMO.

Implementing the solution on the other hand is another story.

Safety needs to become the number one priority to all shooters. All shooters need to feel obligated AND to comfortable point out any and all safety concerns REAL TIME.

The aviation industry learned this years ago and others organizations followed. The results speak for themselves. Industries that have embraced the safety culture have seen dramatic drop in injuries and accidents. Look up “high reliability organization”.

What they found was that for a very high percentage of the accidents/injuries was that there were red flags that people saw people were afraid to speak up for whatever reason. Once they were able to create an environment where anyone from the new guy on his first day on the job to the CEO could call a “cease fire” without fear of retribution the rate of accidents and injuries dropped. Anyone on the production line is obligated to stop the line if they see anything that is wrong.

Right now the majority of the shooters are either afraid or unwilling to call a cease-fire if they see something that might be wrong. This has to change and it has to come from the top.

DQ’ ing a shooter here or there won’t make things any safer in the long run (not saying shooters shouldn’t be DQ for safety violations).

If anyone sees anything potentially unsafe they should immediately call a cease-fire. This would probably necessitate a rule that if everything were found to be safe the shooter would have the choice of picking up the stage where they left off or starting the stage over.

Bottom line, Everyone has to buy in to the safety culture.

Excellent point, I think it also highlights why maybe focusing the RO on safety instead of spotting or scoring makes sense.

If you rotate who's spotting, who's scoring, who's shooting, etc. it makes it difficult for people who are friends to bump each others scores, which is a concern.

If you aren't always scoring or spotting when buddy shoots, hard to give him a consistent leg up. If we outsource spotting/scoring to the squad it frees up the RO to watch ONLY for safety issues.

It's also been my experience that people are more incensed by anything amounting to cheating than a safety issue. There's been a cheating discussion or two over the years and it gets people fired up more than safety violations.

I think that also argues in favor of making ROs safety guys only and letting the squad rotate the other duties. If you aren't spotting for your buddy, you can't bump his score anyway, if you're scoring then somebody else is watching the shots, the constant rotating duties add some security for honest scoring.

I think everyone agrees we'd rather have the RO focusing on safety. If people are nervous about speaking up on a safety issue we need to fix it. If we put the RO on safety exclusively then we have at least one person dedicated to what's important, and if people try to game the scoring they're more likely to be called out for that than safety. Might be a better approach.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You should be getting DQ'd for suitcase carry, that's way more dangerous than some of the other offenses we're discussing.

Examples that don't matter, who decides that? You? I must have missed your election as the topics Lord and moderator.



Ruebenski made the argument that stage DQs don't make sense for safety violations, sounds to me like advocating match DQs for those offenses, not to mention the rest of the "one and done" crowd that's weighed in on this.

You just said nobody gets DQ'd for suitcase carry, which is flagging, then said anybody flagging gets the fuck you until next match, right? So which is it?

I’m done with you as well. Keep arguing for the sake of arguing.

When people see you attempt to suitcase carry, they tell you not to. If you’re an asshole and do it anyway, you’re gonna get a DQ.

When you forget to open a bolt, you get told to open the bolt and you open it.. Happens all day, everyday.

Again, like rubenski that you keep quoting, you’re arguing to be a dickhead at this point.

Go take the clock away, make every stage the same, and keep your 4oz tiggers. Let’s turn this into standing benchrest.

 

[pewpewfever]

As others seem to have mentioned already, a trigger pull weight regulation is not going to put a stop to negligent discharges in a shooting sport that puts shooters under time pressure and has them changing positions and targets. The club matches I attend require bolt back until sighted on target, and that should prevent negligent discharges in theory, but people make mistakes.

 

[Dthomas3523]

As others seem to have mentioned already, a trigger pull weight regulation is not going to put a stop to negligent discharges in a shooting sport that puts shooters under time pressure and has them changing positions and targets. The club matches I attend require bolt back until sighted on target, and that should prevent negligent discharges in theory, but people make mistakes.

By this theory, ND’s must happen while hunting or in combat all the time.

But this rarely happens. The timer doesn’t hold a gun to your head and make you pull that trigger.

Look at the video several times. The shooter was barely touching trigger when it went off each time.

Obviously he should have kept his finger away from trigger, but either a 2 stage or a heavier single stage would have made this much, much harder to make that ND.

 

[Dthomas3523]

There’s also a reason combat and hunting triggers are 1.5lb and above. It’s for this exact situation.

This game is supposed to mimic hunting and combat. That was the whole purpose.

What we are seeing is benchrest style parts being added to an action game. It’s not going to end well.

 

[LawnMM]

When people see you attempt to suitcase carry, they tell you not to. If you’re an asshole and do it anyway, you’re gonna get a DQ.

Again, like rubenski that you keep quoting, you’re arguing to be a dickhead at this point.

Go take the clock away, make every stage the same, and keep your 4oz tiggers. Let’s turn this into standing benchrest.

If you can't handle a grown up conversation without whining and name calling go sit at the kids table.

 

[HogsLife]

I think at this point, as Ruebenski has stated, we’re all on here “violently” agreeing with each other lol. I think for the post part we’re all pretty much on the same page.

1. Safety should be priority #1.

2. Honor System should be reserved for scoring, not safety. Individuals are more likely to call someone on cheating than they are on safety.

3. RO’s / RSO’s primary duty is safety

4. Have shooters handle spotting / scoring to free up RO’s to monitor safety.

5. IMO the folllowing should be match DQ’s.

- ND’s
-Flagging
-leaving the line with a rifle in anything other than Condition 4.
-dropping your rifle (whether or not it breaks 180 or not) .
-integrity violations

Other offenses can be warnings, stage DQ’s, points reductions, etc. whatever the MD decides.

I really don’t see how this is such a big deal. Pretty simple really.

EDIT : MD designates a weapon staging area for each stage in a location in which muzzles are down range, and shooters do not have to walk on front of rifles. This area is also designated to do rifle / scope maintenance.

Shooter get his rifle from the staging area in condition 4 and walks to COF staging area muzzle up and down range.

Once at FP, inserts magazine, goes Condition 1 and shoots course of fire.

Once COF is complete, unload show clear command is gives. RO inspects rifle to ensure it’s in Condition 4 and inserts chamber flag.

Shooter picks up rifle, muzzle up, carry’s it to rifle staging area and stages his rifle.

Not understanding why that is so difficult to implement........

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think at this point, as Ruebenski has stated, we’re all on here “violently” agreeing with each other lol. I think for the post part we’re all pretty much on the same page.

1. Safety should be priority #1.

2. Honor System should be reserved for scoring, not safety. Individuals are more likely to call someone on cheating than they are on safety.

3. RO’s / RSO’s primary duty is safety

4. Have shooter handle spotting / scoring to free up RO’s to monitor safety.

5. IMO the folllowing should be match DQ’s.

- ND’s
-Flagging
-leaving the line with a rifle in anything other than Condition 4.
-dropping your rifle (whether or not it breaks 180 or not) .

Other offenses can be warnings, stage DQ’s, points reductions, etc. whatever the MD decides.

Agreed.

Everyone is so focused on the game (points) for a hobby that is never going to be a full time job.

When in reality, it’s just a rifle match. No one is going to give a shit tomorrow who won. In reality, we should be competing against ourselves. Did I miss a shot today? Yes. Well, I obviously have things to work on. If I hadn’t have missed, no one could beat me.

Instead, people are clawing and fighting for every point.

Make the RO’s responsible for running the stage and safety. If there are enough RO’s, they can spot. If not, it’s on the squad.

Does that open up the door for more cheating? Yes it does. But I’d rather someone go home as a cheater with no integrity, than to not go home at all.

 

[LawnMM]

I think at this point, as Ruebenski has stated, we’re all on here “violently” agreeing with each other lol. I think for the post part we’re all pretty much on the same page.

1. Safety should be priority #1.

2. Honor System should be reserved for scoring, not safety. Individuals are more likely to call someone on cheating than they are on safety.

3. RO’s / RSO’s primary duty is safety

4. Have shooters handle spotting / scoring to free up RO’s to monitor safety.

5. IMO the folllowing should be match DQ’s.

- ND’s
-Flagging
-leaving the line with a rifle in anything other than Condition 4.
-dropping your rifle (whether or not it breaks 180 or not) .
-integrity violations

Other offenses can be warnings, stage DQ’s, points reductions, etc. whatever the MD decides.

I really don’t see how this is such a big deal. Pretty simple really.

Shooter get his rifle from the rack in condition 4 and walks to staging area muzzle up and down range.

Once at FP, inserts magazine, goes Condition 1 and shoots course of fire.

Once COF is complete, unload show clear command is gives. RO inspects rifle to ensure it’s in Condition 4 and inserts chamber flag.

Shooter picks up rifle, muzzle up, carry’s it to rifle staging area and stores his rifle, muzzle up.

Not understanding why that is so difficult to implement........

I think that's a damn nice summary of the positive ideas coming out of this. Except staging rifles muzzle up, most places don't have the racks or the means to transport them out to all the firing points.

I'd settle for grounding them in a safe direction, maybe marked with tape so no ambiguity.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

@Dthomas3523 you have totally fucked this thread up over what amounts to simple safety rules. You can't just tell someone you are done with them in the middle of a simple debate you have motherfucked. Show a little respect and know your audience. The bottom line if a particular discipline in the shooting sports isn't safe than stay away from it for your own safety. That is rule #1. People that keep going back think it is going to happen to the other guy. To keep going back sort of makes you responsible too. After all, you are informed and aware of the danger.

 

[Dthomas3523]

@Dthomas3523 you have totally fucked this thread up over what amounts to simple safety rules. You can't just tell someone you are done with them in the middle of a simple debate you have motherfucked. Show a little respect and know your audience. The bottom line if a particular discipline in the shooting sports isn't safe than stay away from it for your own safety. That is rule #1. People that keep going back think it is going to happen to the other guy. To keep going back sort of makes you responsible too. After all, you are informed and aware of the danger.

Guess what, done with you too.

Guys want to keep “what iffing” things to death. And I’m not going to keep arguing. Simply going to block them so I don’t have to see this shit in my feed.

“What if suitcase”

“What If bolt not back”

“What is shirt catches trigger”

“What if guy is new”

“What if I’m on target but a bomb goes off and I touch the trigger off.”

“What if mechanical failure”

“What if he’s a nice guy and didn’t mean to.”

Safety is safety and not up for nitpicky bullshit debate.

 

[HogsLife]

I think that's a damn nice summary of the positive ideas coming out of this. Except staging rifles muzzle up, most places don't have the racks or the means to transport them out to all the firing points.

I'd settle for grounding them in a safe direction, maybe marked with tape so no ambiguity.

I agree, so long as that area is in a location with muzzles pointed down range, and so as shooters don’t have to constantly walk in front of them. That location can also be used to do any types of “maintenance” to their rifle / scope during the match.

 

[ForgeValley]

I think at this point, as Ruebenski has stated, we’re all on here “violently” agreeing with each other lol. I think for the post part we’re all pretty much on the same page.

1. Safety should be priority #1.

2. Honor System should be reserved for scoring, not safety. Individuals are more likely to call someone on cheating than they are on safety.

3. RO’s / RSO’s primary duty is safety

4. Have shooters handle spotting / scoring to free up RO’s to monitor safety.

5. IMO the folllowing should be match DQ’s.

- ND’s
-Flagging
-leaving the line with a rifle in anything other than Condition 4.
-dropping your rifle (whether or not it breaks 180 or not) .
-integrity violations

Other offenses can be warnings, stage DQ’s, points reductions, etc. whatever the MD decides.

I really don’t see how this is such a big deal. Pretty simple really.

Shooter get his rifle from the rack in condition 4 and walks to staging area muzzle up and down range.

Once at FP, inserts magazine, goes Condition 1 and shoots course of fire.

Once COF is complete, unload show clear command is gives. RO inspects rifle to ensure it’s in Condition 4 and inserts chamber flag.

Shooter picks up rifle, muzzle up, carry’s it to rifle staging area and stores his rifle, muzzle up.

Not understanding why that is so difficult to implement........

And this summary should end this thread. With the exception as stated above, muzzles down range. I don't really want to go back to stacking swivels.

 

[HogsLife]

And this summary should end this thread. With the exception as stated above, muzzles down range. I don't really want to go back to stacking swivels.

I agree, and edited the post to reflect. ??

 

[Inline6]

You touched on something there, it's part of the problem, we're lumping EVERYBODY into the same category/skill level.

I think we need three "classes" with different entry fees, time limits, and expectations. For example new guy forgets to pull bolt back before transitioning, coach him to do it right and expect to have to watch him closer.

Jersey shooter does the same thing? Stage DQ, higher expectations for more experienced guys. I keep hearing some of the Jerseys complain about payouts and shit, fine, you're a "pro" now, if you win it's a $2k payday, so the entry fee is $500 for "Pro" class. Say $250 for intermediate/sport/semi pro whatever you want to call it, $100 for new/amateur shooters.

Maybe let amateur/sport do the prize table and pro is payout only. He who dares, wins. $500 entry fee and payouts for top ten only. Might eliminate some of the prize table drama.

When I first got into this game...which doesn't feel like that long ago but looking back it's been a while. The ratio of experienced shooters to new shooters was probably 20 to 1. The experienced guys would help the new guy sort their shit out. It was that camaraderie that pulled me into this sport. Everyone for the most part was always willing to give advice and help you along the way. What the sport should be about IMO.

Now fast forward to the PRS, one of the rules were you could not help each other out. I had a long conversation with Rich (incase those that don't know he and Kevin were the original founders of the PRS). I told him that I did not like that rule, if I could not help others get to the same place I was I did not want to be part of the sport. Turned out it was bad wording and should have said no coaching while on the line.

With all the new shooters and everyone worried about points for the series the camaraderie is not what it once was. The sport is definitely not the same.

I know what the hell does any of that have to do with safety.... if you have 100 friends at a match instead of 100 people you are a more careful about what you do. Kind of like working for a small company vs a big one where you are just a number.

I have said enough about safety in the other threads just want throw this out there.

 

[Colt45irish]

I’m just struggling to see the the conflict here. Every other shooting “ sport” or event has a zero tolerance policy on NDs and blatant safety violations. Classes included. Shit happens because people are human. Avoiding accidents and negligence with proper safety rules that are enforced is the ONLY way. If you don’t get that then you ARE the problem.

 

[Tree]

I do find some of the comments interesting... Mainly because other sports I have participated in (IDPA, USPSA, 3-gun) have the same rules for everyone. ND equals Match DQ no matter if it safely hits berm or not, sweep yourself or others DQ, manipulate firearms outside designated areas DQ, have magazine or ammo in those designated safe areas DQ. Move between positions with finger in trigger 1 warning second time DQ (this one could be how bolt back infractions are handled). The rules apply to all from new shooter to the best shooters. In those sports there are 2 type of people those that have been DQd and those that will be.

The sport needs designated ROs for safety infractions and the squad can score and call shots.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

NDs happen but what matters is the ramifications. Is it the same across the board? Safe to say no.
1. Some people don’t know their weapon system and are a potato with respect to handling.
2. Either enforce rules uniformly or don’t have them.
3. Stage design doesn’t factor into it be it a single rope or level concrete pad. You own your weapon system and should know how to maneuver it.

 

[harleytuner]

2 RO's per stage minimum. One on glass, one on the shooter. They need to know thre rules and enforce them. Sometine back on page brought up NFL refs. Thr difference here is the NFL reps are paid professionals. maybe it's time for PRS, the MD's and the range owners to come off a little money and start paying for qualified RO's and not rely on volunteers.

 

[silhouette]

Yes the shooter knew that something went wrong but was he not aiming down range where targets were? was he not on the glass looking through the optic AT said targets?

I think he pulled his shot way earlier but he didn't sent a round in the wrong direction.

I think of a match were it was a timed event and the whole team had to have their shots off in a certain time. If you couldn't find the targets fast enough you just sent them down range at whatever you could find. Was this reason to be sent home? Shooting at the dirt as fast as you can because you screwed the pooch and lost your target through the scope and wanted your team to be able to make up the points. Or should you just burn up all the time by searching for the correct target?

Different opinion of what is the correct answer I imagine. I do agree however he should not have taken the point in no way shape or form. One thing I do appreciate about this sport and all shooting sports for the most part is people are honest. I would have said no call and I know I pulled the shot and not center punched it.

Hard to center punch it when you hold left edge ALL day.

I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.

The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.

 

[Cjwise5]

I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.

The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.

Unfortunately for your point of view, the PRS rules are written clearly, and this is an ND. The question is not whether it is or isn’t, the question is what do we do about these types of safety issues?

 

[ForgeValley]

I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.

The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.

You clearly don't understand what an ND is.

 

[Inline6]

I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.

The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.

What the Fuck are you talking about... no one that's correct no one can account for that round and you call that a miss. You sir are a big part of the problem.

That is the fucking problem, this is not paintball we are playing.

I have said it before look it up, this sport as a whole, we are lucky no one has been killed with attitudes like this it's not a matter of if. It is when someone gets killed. The lawyers will have a field day. Look at all the ammo that has been given.

Wake up people before it's too late.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.

The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.

I thought I was done with this thread.

You sir are a dangerous fuck.

Find another hobby.

 

[HogsLife]

I haven't read through the whole thread, only the 1st page and honestly, I agree with this ^^^.
The shooter in position and running through the stage. That "ND" is nothing more than a miss. If a miss down range is dangerous, then its the range setup/safety template that is needs correction, not the shooter.
If he was standing at port arms and it went off then both the shooter AND RO need a kick in the bum.

The only questionable thing on that video is his integrity for accepting the point.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Let’s what if a little for safety discussion.

Say the shooter was on target and meant to pull trigger.

If I’m behind glass and there is no reason (heavy foliage, brush, grass, etc) I cant see your impacts. After 1-3 (situation depending) no calls, I’m telling you to check your dope. If you yell back it’s good, and another no call......I’m stopping you.

Depending on rules and such, we can check your zero and dope or you’re done. Just depends on rules and situation.

No accountability for rounds = not worth the risk. We take a training time out and fix it.

 

[ForgeValley]

Wait, I've been wanting to use this one...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Point being. In a safe world, there needs to be more DQs (when warranted) and even more pauses or time outs. Stop clock, figure it out. And then resume/restart/stop accordingly.

 

[LawnMM]

You are right. I guess I didn't think that thru or really articulate my meaning. I guess I meant, if someone was unsafe enough to stop them in a stage and tell them to unload and show clear for the purpose of a stage DQ, then that should be a match DQ. Obviously if it's an ND, it's a no-brainer.

We just executed our club match today. I had to remind several new guys to watch their muzzles as they were beginning to point in the wrong direction. I had to ask folks to move their rifles in the staging area farther forward to the firing line bc a new guy got tempted to walk in front of them to move to the firing point. Someone got reminded to remove their mag before leaving the shooters box. We emphazised a member of the squad watching the shooter instead of keeping time, scoring, or spotting. This resulted in a cease fire call when one of the more expienced shooters spread the legs of his CkyePod out low and was borderline clearing the bullets path of a 6x6 tie embedded in the ground at the firing line. He knew he was good bc he'd shot from that position many times but he got up and moved in good spirits and thanked folks for watching for safety. I started a stage without ear pro and fired one round (it was a hit on a 1.5moa target at 615 from a rooftop) and stopped & cleared my rifle; asked my squad mates if they would be okay with allowing me to reshoot after I put foamies in. They we're fine with it. Of course, I missed the first round that time. We didn't coach each other for wind or impacts but we watched each other for follow thru and gave reminders to ride the trigger thru recoil while shooting. Several of the new guys came up after the match and thanked us for helping, coaching, and running the squad.



I really don't see these problems where I shoot. I don't think we're in some sort of disagreement gridlock. One of my buddies brought this thread up to me this morning before the safety brief. We chatted about it. He shoots more national matches than I do. We both agreed that issues tend to get blown up on Snipers Hide.

This video is a perfect example. It captured a really bad example. And it captured the incident not getting reported. Now it gets posted. Now there's nothing any of us can do about it to "right the wrong". Who is reporting it in that club in TX that it occurred? Is that shooter now DQ'd for safety and integrity because it was brought up to that local MD? If it did then it's a done issue, right? The correct actions took place by others even if that shooter didn't. If not, did it just get straight plastered on the internet to be feasted upon and as "Evidence exhibit A" for all the bad that is in the world? I don't know man. In my circle of shooters it wouldn't even occur to us to not take action then and there but rather post it on the internet later, even if we didn't discover it until the next day. The first people to know about it and be informed would be our loose collection of rotating match directors. In order to determine if we would let that guy shoot again. But then again, we haven't had that issue either. The core group of experienced shooters rotate MD duties, set up & tear down. We squad-mom every match. We run practice sessions for new folks that want to try the sport out in which we don't shoot; we teach the stages and skills required to shoot them. We have loaner gear donated by all the usual companies for new guys to try gear for a match before buying. I brought my second comp rifle with my .223 trainer barrel and 100rds to the match and offered it up for anyone that was having rifle issues. Reading this stuff on SH actually makes me pretty grateful for the group we have.

Ya, thanks Dave Thomas. I guess I'm a dickhead....

Sounds like a squared away club, wish ya'll were in Colorado! Even if you are a dickhead ?

 

[Mech_eng]

“Depending on the weapon used, an ND can either create or destroy a family” - mech eng

In all seriousness:
I’m late to the party but wanted to provide my useless input.. So Im an engineer who fabricates offshore oil rigs for a living, sometimes we work over 100k man hours per week(back when oil was high at least)! We are lieneant on some safety issues but some are immediate grounds for termination. One example is working at heights without being tied off. Why do we fire so many people for not tying off? Maybe because it’s one of the top causes of construction deaths each year? Or maybe it’s because the consequences are so grave. We have a saying at work: “i would rather see you unemployed than dead”. I think this type of commitment to safety needs to and should be applied to firearms. A line has to be drawn somewhere, why not on the conservative side?

 

[Diver160651]

I totally missed the part here about the team firing shots.

Again, easy answer here. You find your targets properly, and engage them.

You don’t just send rounds downrange for the shit of it.

The timer isn’t holding a gun to your head. Not all stages are intended to be cleaned within the allotted time.

If I’m on glass and people are obviously just slinging let when they are “kinda” on target trying to score lucky point, best case is I’m stopping timer, giving warning, and letting them pick back up. If attitude is given, stage or match DQ.

This is just as unsafe as other violations. If you’re moving the rifle fast and just trying to get lucky points, you could easily slip

2 brief thoughts-

1. I would venture to say a number of the folks who are very boisterous in this thread regarding safety do not carry medical in their pack. If you are one of those people, this is your wake up call.
2. It was mentioned to treat safety differently based on jersey vs new shooter. I vehemently disagree with this. Safety (a high level) should be expected from all shooters.

I do..

Although PB rifle round is going to be worse than Quick Clot or a tourniquet is going to fix.. maybe better putting it around the injured’s neck at that point.

 

[silhouette]

Unfortunately for your point of view, the PRS rules are written clearly, and this is an ND. The question is not whether it is or isn’t, the question is what do we do about these types of safety issues?

Yes there should be penalties for ND's and there can be no grey areas. But was that particular one less safe than a missed target?

What the Fuck are you talking about... no one that's correct no one can account for that round and you call that a miss. You sir are a big part of the problem.

That is the fucking problem, this is not paintball we are playing.

I have said it before look it up, this sport as a whole, we are lucky no one has been killed with attitudes like this it's not a matter of if. It is when someone gets killed. The lawyers will have a field day. Look at all the ammo that has been given.

Wake up people before it's too late.

Referring only to the example in the video, given that the rifle was pointed down range, if that projectile landed anywhere "unsafe" then the range safety template is not big enough. I stand by that comment.

I thought I was done with this thread.

You sir are a dangerous fuck.

Find another hobby.

There's really no need for name calling. Surely we are all above that. Let's keep it a civilized discussion.

 

[Tree]

An ND is an ND regardless of where it impacts. It’s that way in other sports why would this one be the exception. There are no safe NDs.

 

[LawnMM]

I do..

Although PB rifle round is going to be worse than Quick Clot or a tourniquet is going to fix.. maybe better putting it around the injured’s neck at that point.

If it's an extremity wound there's a lot of data that supports you're likely to survive if it's tied off quickly and they get you to a hospital for surgery.

Take one in a juncture area or the torso and you're pretty much fucked if you don't fall on an operating table after you get hit. You can pack it but I don't think that's going to be enough.

Always happy when MDs have coordinates for a life flight landing and let local dispatch centers know the when/where of the match just in case.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yes there should be penalties for ND's and there can be no grey areas. But was that particular one less safe than a missed target?

Referring only to the example in the video, given that the rifle was pointed down range, if that projectile landed anywhere "unsafe" then the range safety template is not big enough. I stand by that comment.

There's really no need for name calling. Surely we are all above that. Let's keep it a civilized discussion.

No, you’re an idiot if you’re arguing this.

You can call it name calling. I call it being honest.

There’s stupid people in the world. It’s a real thing. You’re one of them.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You have no idea where that round went. You have no idea if the rifle slipped down 2” and launched that round over the berm and out the range.

You’re defending the defenseless and you are part of the problem.

 

[Bender]

Hey, after we cover NDs, can we talk about muzzle discipline? Last match I ROed a guy was driving around the match with a rifle on his four wheeler front rack horizontally with bungee cords AND a closed chamber. Drove up a hill passing 20-30 guys and muzzled every one of them on the way by, I took him to the side to explain how unwise that was, in so many words....

And he was a MD.....

 

[Niles Coyote]

"It only takes one. You own it till it stops" Frank.

 

[Dthomas3523]

View attachment 7061538

Pointed down range. Same as a miss.

 

[silhouette]

You have no idea where that round went. You have no idea if the rifle slipped down 2” and launched that round over the berm and out the range.

You’re defending the defenseless and you are part of the problem.

Do your ranges not have a safety zone beyond the berm? I know they do here and it would take a guided missile to get outside that.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Do your ranges not have a safety zone beyond the berm? I know they do here and it would take a guided missile to get outside that.

So it’s the range’s fault now??

Many ranges around the country have houses within a couple miles. Do the math.

Let’s teach people that safety doesn’t matter because there’s a safe zone behind the berm??

What in the fucking fuck are you speaking of?

This stuff carries over into real life. There’s no safety zone when you’re in the woods hunting or what not.

You put this kind of shit in people’s heads and they aren’t going to respect firearms safety.

What is your background with firearms? Prior or current mil/le? Have you ever hunted before? Have you ever, in real life, seen what a rifle round does to a person or animal???

 

[Dthomas3523]

Let’s get real. Here’s a coyote at about 980 yds with a .338 lapua. (Not mine)

 

[Niles Coyote]

Do your ranges not have a safety zone beyond the berm? I know they do here and it would take a guided missile to get outside that.

Out of the dozen or so locations I've shot matches only one didn't have houses within range behind the back stop and that one still had an occasional boat or USCG helo that would occasionally wonder through.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here’s a decent pic in which you can see the small entrance would on the left. Exit wound is slightly larger. The leg in the right also has several entry wounds from the shrapnel of the bullet.