F T/R Competition New F-Class Division

[jrbet83]

I think you just made XTR's point for him.

The intended purpose of that dragster is to reach the maximum speed possible from a standing start inside one quarter mile. I believe there are multiple classes in the pursuit of this goal but none of them involve the family minivan, which would be impractical for that purpose.

The intended purpose of that rock crawler (whatever its name,) is to get through impassable terrain. Once again, the family sedan would be impractical for that purpose.

A top-end F-Class rifle is designed to produce a high score on a miniature target at very long distances with a large amount of shots. This is something that is not practical with the family hunting or tactical rifle.

The prone on bone atop stones crowd use rifles that have very long barrels and fancy sights while bunched up in tailor-made leather jackets and super-tight slings. This equipment is designed to also produce high scores at long distance with a large amount of shot. I would say those rifles and the ancillary equipment are totally impractical for hunting of tactical purposes.

If I said the earth was round, would you argue that point with me too.

Just cause something is built for an intended purpose, doesn't make it partical. But I appreciate you making our point with the nhra analogy. There are multiple classes, allowing more cars the opportunity to race. Exactly like we'd like to see another class added to F Class, so more rifles can compete. Thank you Denys for that anology.

 

[Al_Ski]

As long as they are competing against each other, who cares what targets they use? Brad Sauve won with a tactical rifle. Was his rifle impractical? Was it just luck? Tactical rifles can do fine at 1k, it just takes better wind skills than current TR rifles.

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Back then Brad was shooting 175gr SMK's and they used the Helen Keller targets. F-Class has evolved since then.

I'll let him know you have a man-crush on him when I shoot with him Saturday.

 

[wwrhodes91]

Back then Brad was shooting 175gr SMK's and they used the Helen Keller targets. F-Class has evolved since then.

I'll let him know you have a man-crush on him when I shoot with him Saturday.

Not sure what your point is. Maybe some people like what F class was back then more

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[lash]

If I said the earth was round, would you argue that point with me too.

Just cause something is built for an intended purpose, doesn't make it partical. But I appreciate you making our point with the nhra analogy. There are multiple classes, allowing more cars the opportunity to race. Exactly like we'd like to see another class added to F Class, so more rifles can compete. Thank you Denys for that anology.

Except that you can't race your family car in top fuel drag racing division, just like you won't win shooting your one rifle does all in F-Class (even though they will let you shoot it). The NHRA is an organization, just like the NRA is. Top Fuel Drag Racing is a specific division of racing supported by the NHRA, just like F-Class is a specific division of long range shooting supported by the NRA.

Analogy complete.

As said many times before, if you have a specific division of long range shooting you would like to see; then create it and start your own thing. If it's as big as you think it will be, then it will be a hit and you're golden. Just don't think that it should be called F-Class just because you want to hang on those apron strings. Do your thing and be happy, but don't expect that others should embrace your thing as theirs just because you want it to be so.

For the record, I do not shoot F-class and have no other reason to point out these obvious truths except that it seems like a bunch of whining from those who don't want to play in the reindeer games by the rules that are already in place and instead want the rules bent for their specific version/vision. I wish you good luck in your endeavors, but your arguments seem petty from an outsider's point of view.

 

[wwrhodes91]

Breathing, really? I gather you are self taught? Where are you now in your shooting journey? Do you have any mentors or coaching from anyone?

Partially. I had coaching when I competed in air rifle and trap shooting. Where I am now is I compete monthly in F class and IDPA. When I say breathing, I'm also including everything involved in the focus and holding the max stability before the shot. This becomes subconscious and a non issue for experienced shooters, but it causes problems for new shooters

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[wwrhodes91]

Except that you can't race your family car in top fuel drag racing division, just like you won't win shooting your one rifle does all in F-Class (even though they will let you shoot it). The NHRA is an organization, just like the NRA is. Top Fuel Drag Racing is a specific division of racing supported by the NHRA, just like F-Class is a specific division of long range shooting supported by the NRA.

Analogy complete.

As said many times before, if you have a specific division of long range shooting you would like to see; then create it and start your own thing. If it's as big as you think it will be, then it will be a hit and you're golden. Just don't think that it should be called F-Class just because you want to hang on those apron strings. Do your thing and be happy, but don't expect that others should embrace your thing as theirs just because you want it to be so.

For the record, I do not shoot F-class and have no other reason to point out these obvious truths except that it seems like a bunch of whining from those who don't want to play in the reindeer games by the rules that are already in place and instead want the rules bent for their specific version/vision. I wish you good luck in your endeavors, but your arguments seem petty from an outsider's point of view.

To add to your analogy though... Imagine if over 50% of the cars that "compete" against the dragsters are mustangs. AND it used to be all mustangs 10 years ago. It isn't unreasonable for there to be a mustang division.

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[damoncali]

Does anyone here who wants a separate division care if it's inside of F class, or just another High Power division? Would anyone object to it being called "G class"? I find this idea that people want it specifically to be called "F class" very strange - it's all NRA High Power. Who cares what it's called?

 

[wwrhodes91]

Does anyone here who wants a separate division care if it's inside of F class, or just another High Power division? Would anyone object to it being called "G class"? I find this idea that people want it specifically to be called "F class" very strange - it's all NRA High Power. Who cares what it's called?

I don't care what it is called. What I'm concerned with is if it will be held monthly with the F class matches.

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[lash]

So if there are all those 'mustangs' just pushing at the gas to compete in their own class, it certainly isn't Top Fuel, so you missed the true analogy and are twisting it for the sake of pure argument and for the desire to win at all costs. Shouldn't and wouldn't those mustangs be happy to be in their own division, since they would not be, by any stretch, top fuel dragsters? Call the division MURA (Mustang Rod Association), or similarly call your dream rifle division LRTR (Long Range Tactical Rifle) or TRLR ( you get the picture). Nobody is stopping you.

Instead you would, to drag (pun intended) the analogy agonizingly along, make Top Fuel include a (not top fuel) mustang division just because you want to be part of the big dog division without actually being one of them. There's wannabe smeared all over this isn't there?

 

[wwrhodes91]

So if there are all those 'mustangs' just pushing at the gas to compete in their own class, it certainly isn't Top Fuel, so you missed the true analogy and are twisting it for the sake of pure argument and for the desire to win at all costs. Shouldn't and wouldn't those mustangs be happy to be in their own division, since they would not be, by any stretch, top fuel dragsters? Call the division MURA (Mustang Rod Association), or similarly call your dream rifle division LRTR (Long Range Tactical Rifle) or TRLR ( you get the picture). Nobody is stopping you.

Instead you would, to drag (pun intended) the analogy agonizingly along, make Top Fuel include a (not top fuel) mustang division just because you want to be part of the big dog division without actually being one of them. There's wannabe smeared all over this isn't there?

I'm not twisting anything. You made a bad analogy. F class didn't start out with the rifles that are used now. I don't care what you call the "mustang" division. My point is they are so close in what they do, that a new division is more appropriate than a new event altogether. Either way, I don't care. I just want to compete against other tactical rifles in an F class like format

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[Al_Ski]

Not sure what your point is. Maybe some people like what F class was back then more

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You keep referring to Brad's win as if it's the holy grail of F Class. It is ancient history...

 

[wwrhodes91]

You keep referring to Brad's win as if it's the holy grail of F Class. It is ancient history...

I've mentioned it twice. It is a relevant thing to bring up when people say that tactical rifles have no place in F class.

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[jrbet83]

just like you won't win shooting your one rifle does all in F-Class (even though they will let you shoot it).

BINGO! That's the entire point of this thread. You nailed it. With the popularity of the tac rifle, the interest in it getting shot in F Class (they keep saying this gets brought up every few months), it would be nice to discuss the pro's and con's of having a class/division built for it. Just like in NHRA, they recognized that the door slammers far out number the top fuel dragsters, so they developed classes to allow those cars the opportunity to compete. But then again, maybe thats just the NHRA is actually interested in getting more people involved and expanding the sport.

 

[jrbet83]

So if there are all those 'mustangs' just pushing at the gas to compete in their own class, it certainly isn't Top Fuel, so you missed the true analogy and are twisting it for the sake of pure argument and for the desire to win at all costs. Shouldn't and wouldn't those mustangs be happy to be in their own division, since they would not be, by any stretch, top fuel dragsters? Call the division MURA (Mustang Rod Association), or similarly call your dream rifle division LRTR (Long Range Tactical Rifle) or TRLR ( you get the picture). Nobody is stopping you.

F Class isn't the rifles. F Class is the courses of fire and the procedural way the matches are set up and shot. That's why the interest in being apart of F Class.

Instead you would, to drag (pun intended) the analogy agonizingly along, make Top Fuel include a (not top fuel) mustang division just because you want to be part of the big dog division without actually being one of them. There's wannabe smeared all over this isn't there?

Top fuel isn't drag racing, it's a class that drag races. Just because I want to drag race my mustang, doesn't mean I want to be apart of top fuel. And in this case, we absolutely don't want to be apart of open......that's the whole point! Not sure how that comes across as being a wanna be. Personally I think it's the exact opposite. It would be a wanna be if I just shot my rifle in open, even though in terms of equipment it couldn't compete.

As I said before, a Tac division would actually be harder to shoot, then open. It has nothing to do with being a wanna be, but more about competing against other shooters, rather then other rifles/rests. It also has nothing to do with money, as most custom tac rifles have as much if not more (added cost of bottom metal, detachable mags and tactical scope costs) money into them as a tr or open rifle (minus the front rest costs).

 

[wwrhodes91]

F Class isn't the rifles. F Class is the courses of fire and the procedural way the matches are set up and shot. That's why the interest in being apart of F Class.




Top fuel isn't drag racing, it's a class that drag races. Just because I want to drag race my mustang, doesn't mean I want to be apart of top fuel. And in this case, we absolutely don't want to be apart of open......that's the whole point! Not sure how that comes across as being a wanna be. Personally I think it's the exact opposite. It would be a wanna be if I just shot my rifle in open, even though in terms of equipment it couldn't compete.

As I said before, a Tac division would actually be harder to shoot, then open. It has nothing to do with being a wanna be, but more about competing against other shooters, rather then other rifles/rests. It also has nothing to do with money, as most custom tac rifles have as much if not more (added cost of bottom metal, detachable mags and tactical scope costs) money into them as a tr or open rifle (minus the front rest costs).

His analogy is just so off. It is like saying that mustangs aren't allowed to ever drag race because they aren't top fuel dragsters. Maybe if F class was named "No tactical, only belly benchrest" he would be closer. But he is equivocating the exclusive naming of "top fuel" with an inclusive name of "F-class" that encompasses various rifle types.

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[JBD56]

I don't care what it is called. What I'm concerned with is if it will be held monthly with the F class matches.

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Most F-class shooters I know would enjoy having other participants shoot with them on league nights or matches as long as the muzzle brakes are removed, or you shoot on your own relay. We have had a few show up on league nights that were able to be squaded at the end of the firing line away from other shooters or they removed the brakes. The biggest complaint I have is these participants thinking the rules for prep and sequence of fire don't apply to them (we had two individuals at our matches last Sunday that had to be reminded to load one round at a time). Take the time to learn or ask questions so you can be part of the solution instead of pissing off the people you want to play with.

 

[wwrhodes91]

Most F-class shooters I know would enjoy having other participants shoot with them on league nights or matches as long as the muzzle brakes are removed, or you shoot on your own relay. We have had a few show up on league nights that were able to be squaded at the end of the firing line away from other shooters or they removed the brakes. The biggest complaint I have is these participants thinking the rules for prep and sequence of fire don't apply to them (we had two individuals at our matches last Sunday that had to be reminded to load one round at a time). Take the time to learn or ask questions so you can be part of the solution instead of pissing off the people you want to play with.

I shoot F-class and they allow brakes at the matches I go to. I've never seen anyone try to load from a magazine even though 90% of the field uses rifles with mags.

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[memilanuk]

F Class isn't the rifles. F Class is the courses of fire and the procedural way the matches are set up and shot.

Actually... I'd have to say thats just about completely backwards and wrong. High Power Rifle - i.e. Prone and /or Fullbore - is the courses of fire and procedural way the matches are set up and shot. F-Class *is* the rifles and the rests/bipods/bags - hence section 22 - 'F-Class' describing the rifles and related equipment, and not much else (target dimensions / classification percentages). Everything else - and I mean *everything* else - comes from the rule book for the parent discipline, whether its NRA High Power Rifle or NRA International Fullbore Prone.

That's why the interest in being apart of F Class.

Wanting to get out and shoot is all well and good, and I support that. Wanting to change the categories or further splinter them so that people who spent their time and $$$ to set up their guns specifically for one venue don't get their feelings hurt when competing directly against people who have spent their time and $$$ setting their guns up specifically for a given discipline... I have less empathy for. Less, but not 'none'.

Still, it makes about as much sense as it would me complaining about tac matches having rapid-fire bolt drills so that you *have* to have a DBM, and pretty much *have* to have a brake to be able to spot (and correct) your own shots, or *need* a scope with some kind of hash-marks for hold-off or ranging, etc. If I started complaining about how those kind of matches 'excluded' people like me with my single-shot target rifle... I'd get laughed out of town, and told to buck up and use the right tool for the right job, and that its my responsibility, and no one else's. Expecting another sport to change to accommodate your rifle you built for another sport... just strikes me as more than a little presumptuous.

Like I said earlier... if you really want the trigger time and the practice... get out there to the matches. If you have to unscrew the brake or can, or get squadded separately if you can't... thats life right now. Expecting things to change *before* the people running the matches see enough interest - as in people showing up to shoot (and help), not just people makin' noise - is probably not gonna happen.

 

[asbestosglove]

This^^^^^

 

[Denys]

I'm not twisting anything. You made a bad analogy. F class didn't start out with the rifles that are used now. ...

Actually, it pretty much did, especially for F-TR. Remembering that TR stands for Target Rifle, those long-barreled jobbies with expensive sextant-like sights on them, George Farquharson pulled off those sights, slapped on a scope and hung a bipod underneath and continued to compete alongside other Target Rifles, with the long barrels and the sights.

 

[Denys]

I've mentioned it twice. It is a relevant thing to bring up when people say that tactical rifles have no place in F class.

Nobody said that tactical rifles have no place in F-Class. Make sure the brake or the suppressor is removed, load one at a time, get squadded according to the caliber used in your rifle and have at it. I have never turned anyone away who comes to shoot and follows these rules.


I did not see Brad shoot a tactical rifle when I saw him at the last 3 Nationals and the last Worlds. Why do you think that is? Would it have anything to do with the size of the targets?

 

[JBD56]

I shoot F-class and they allow brakes at the matches I go to. I've never seen anyone try to load from a magazine even though 90% of the field uses rifles with mags.

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You would never be allowed to shoot with a brake at a sanctioned NRA regional or State match where I live. The MD's at these matches are coat and sling guys that still don't recognize F-class as legit.

 

[jrbet83]

Actually... I'd have to say thats just about completely backwards and wrong.

So shooting this rifle

at steel at 500 yards is considered more of an F Class match,


then shooting this rifle

20 shots in 30 minutes at a LRF target at a 1000yards?

Apparently I shoot F Class Open, quite a bit then. Since my tac rifle is considered an Open class rifle, and F Class is the rifle not the course of fire/procedure, every time I pull the trigger......I'm an F Classer. Damn it feels good to be apart of the club! You wanna be's need to go find your own discipline to shoot in and quit trying to change my F Class. You guys will never understand. I've been shooting F Class open for going on 20 years.....so I know what I'm talking about.

 

[memilanuk]

That's pretty clearly not what I said. But nice try...

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[jrbet83]

F-Class *is* the rifles and the rests/bipods/bags -

Not sure why your getting mad at me, I'm one of you know. I was just confused is all. See when I use to hear people say they were going to go shoot an F Class match, I figured they were going to shoot the multiple strings of 20rds in 30min at LRF target at 1000 yards (for a 1000yard match) etc etc. That's why I said "F Class isn't the rifles. F Class is the courses of fire and the procedural way the matches are set up and shot." But as you put it, I was completely wrong. You even put *'s around the "F-Class *is* the rifles and the rests/bipods/bags"

 

[XTR]

Actually, This rifle:

Won a gold medal in the 3rd match of the FCNC in 2012.

 

[Denys]

It sure did. And it's tactical; see the paint job!

 

[alpine44]

In shooting sports people pick a discipline/class/division that fits their skills and their wallet and then claim that this discipline/class/division is the purest contest of "marksmanship" and that the rest is just "gaming".

In reality, guns are tools developed for two main purposes: to put food on the table and to prevent "bad guys" to take that food and/or your life.

My personal criteria for being interested in a sport shooting discipline/class/division is determined by how much my investment of time and money benefits my skills for the "raw" use of guns. A lot of IDPA, USPSA, IPSC, FN 3Gun events meet these criteria in my opinion. NRA HP and it's descendants - not so much.

Engaging targets at 1000 yards is impressive but can you identify with your open sights the correct target when the targets do not wear numbers and mill around like in real life - even if they are the size of a french door. When was the last time you filled your freezer or defended your life or country while shooting with a shooters coat, a joystick bipod, or a free recoiling gun?

F/TR was a step in the right direction but why is the use of more appropriate calibers verboten? If 1000 yards is the norm and not an exception then why require calibers that run out of steam at about that distance. Just because it is "tacticool" when the military makes do with what NATO has compromised on? Who in his right mind hunts in the mountains or in wide open spaces with a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO?

After having fulfilled the German Army draft as a mountain infantry DM (Gebirgsjägerscharfschütze), having participated in countless civilian long range shooting events from Italy to Finland, having hunted for nearly three decades in the German and Austrian Alps, and with all due respect to the country I have choose to be my current home, I find arguments for the practical value of the current NRA High Power, F, and F/TR rules simply amusing. I do not expect anyone to create a match class for my skills and skill development needs but let's be realistic when promoting our pet discipline.

To those who still claim that esoteric and impractical equipment is not a dominant factor in the current NRA HP, F, or F/TR events I offer the following contest:
You invite me to your favorite match and bring your usual tools and I bring mine (a rucksack, a spotting scope, and a light hunting tack driver in 6.5x55). But before we engage the targets we step on a cinder block for two hundred times with all (!) the gear we intend to set up on the firing line. We keep score by counting the rings and the combined time for cinder block stepping and target engagement. If that is too boring, we can up the ante by engaging targets at unknown distances. Then, let's have this discussion again.

 

[damoncali]

I find arguments for the practical value of the current NRA High Power, F, and F/TR rules simply amusing.

I don't think anyone is mistaking NRA HP as Special Recon Ranger Forces™ training. It's known distance position target shooting and everything that implies. If you don't enjoy it, don't shoot it. It's a great way to learn and reinforce the fundamentals if you ask me.

 

[wwrhodes91]

In shooting sports people pick a discipline/class/division that fits their skills and their wallet and then claim that this discipline/class/division is the purest contest of "marksmanship" and that the rest is just "gaming".

In reality, guns are tools developed for two main purposes: to put food on the table and to prevent "bad guys" to take that food and/or your life.

My personal criteria for being interested in a sport shooting discipline/class/division is determined by how much my investment of time and money benefits my skills for the "raw" use of guns. A lot of IDPA, USPSA, IPSC, FN 3Gun events meet these criteria in my opinion. NRA HP and it's descendants - not so much.

Engaging targets at 1000 yards is impressive but can you identify with your open sights the correct target when the targets do not wear numbers and mill around like in real life - even if they are the size of a french door. When was the last time you filled your freezer or defended your life or country while shooting with a shooters coat, a joystick bipod, or a free recoiling gun?

F/TR was a step in the right direction but why is the use of more appropriate calibers verboten? If 1000 yards is the norm and not an exception then why require calibers that run out of steam at about that distance. Just because it is "tacticool" when the military makes do with what NATO has compromised on? Who in his right mind hunts in the mountains or in wide open spaces with a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO?

After having fulfilled the German Army draft as a mountain infantry DM (Gebirgsjägerscharfschütze), having participated in countless civilian long range shooting events from Italy to Finland, having hunted for nearly three decades in the German and Austrian Alps, and with all due respect to the country I have choose to be my current home, I find arguments for the practical value of the current NRA High Power, F, and F/TR rules simply amusing. I do not expect anyone to create a match class for my skills and skill development needs but let's be realistic when promoting our pet discipline.

To those who still claim that esoteric and impractical equipment is not a dominant factor in the current NRA HP, F, or F/TR events I offer the following contest:
You invite me to your favorite match and bring your usual tools and I bring mine (a rucksack, a spotting scope, and a light hunting tack driver in 6.5x55). But before we engage the targets we step on a cinder block for two hundred times with all (!) the gear we intend to set up on the firing line. We keep score by counting the rings and the combined time for cinder block stepping and target engagement. If that is too boring, we can up the ante by engaging targets at unknown distances. Then, let's have this discussion again.

Maybe people realize that neither F-class nor tactical matches really provide any benefit other than in the sport

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[alpine44]

I don't think anyone is mistaking NRA HP as Special Recon Ranger Forces™ training. It's known distance position target shooting and everything that implies. If you don't enjoy it, don't shoot it. It's a great way to learn and reinforce the fundamentals if you ask me.

"If you don't enjoy it, don't shoot it" is not that simple here on the East Coast. We cannot drive in the desert for some informal long range plinking and the few ranges where you can deal with wind are occupied by the NRA events.

Theoretically, you could show up with any rifle at these events but according to the "When in Rome..." rule I do not want to give the serious folks the impression that I am mocking them nor do I want to be categorized as some hillbilly idiot who does not have the sense or money to get the right tools for their (!) discipline.

I understood the intent of the OP as a suggestion to create events where you are welcome and sufficiently equipped with an accurate hunting or tactical rifle that you would carry during a hunt or the the occasional Zombie Apocalypse

Luckily, I live within driving distance of Peacemaker, WV which is a great place for practical rifle shooting but others may have only the ranges where the "Big Boys with the Big (heavy and expensive) Toys" run the show on weekends.

For those that are the pickle of finding anything else to do other than punching hole in hole at 100 yards, Appleseed may be a possibility. The 25 yard COF on tiny targets addresses the fundamentals and sometimes they offer 100+ yards on the second day. Nobody there looks down his nose if you are a masochist and shoot the 25 yards with centerfire and the 100 yards with rimfire on a windy day.

 

[damoncali]

"If you don't enjoy it, don't shoot it" is not that simple here on the East Coast.

I feel your pain on that. I left the east coast years ago and you couldn't pay me enough to go back.

 

[anon]

alpine44 is a perfect candidate for an F-Open Bipod. There are plenty more just like him.

 

[wwrhodes91]

"If you don't enjoy it, don't shoot it" is not that simple here on the East Coast. We cannot drive in the desert for some informal long range plinking and the few ranges where you can deal with wind are occupied by the NRA events.

Theoretically, you could show up with any rifle at these events but according to the "When in Rome..." rule I do not want to give the serious folks the impression that I am mocking them nor do I want to be categorized as some hillbilly idiot who does not have the sense or money to get the right tools for their (!) discipline.

I understood the intent of the OP as a suggestion to create events where you are welcome and sufficiently equipped with an accurate hunting or tactical rifle that you would carry during a hunt or the the occasional Zombie Apocalypse

Luckily, I live within driving distance of Peacemaker, WV which is a great place for practical rifle shooting but others may have only the ranges where the "Big Boys with the Big (heavy and expensive) Toys" run the show on weekends.

For those that are the pickle of finding anything else to do than punching hole in hole at 100 yards, Appleseed may be a possibility. The 25 yard COF on tiny targets addresses the fundamentals and sometimes they offer 100+ yards on the second day. Nobody there looks down his nose if you are a masochist and shoot the 25 yards with centerfire and the 100 yards with rimfire on a windy day.

Many states in the South are similar. There's only one range within 300 miles of me that goes to 1k and it is only open to civilians for NRA highpower matches.

 

[jim_k]

Denys, you seem to be referring to the "any-any" class for elbow shooters at high-power mid-range (300-600 yards), who shoot on the High Power target, which is much easier to score on. I shoot on it at our home range at 300 yards with my "real" F/TR set-up, and the goal is to get all X's (I haven't done it yet, to be honest), which is roughly equivalent to a clean (all 10's) with an F-Class target. We happen not to have any F-class targets. As you mention, the people who don't have full-on F-class equipment are going to be hard pressed to score at 1,000 yards. They might do better to work up to that distance at NRA Mid-Range Any-Any contests (they run at Bayou in conjunction with the State Mid-Range Championship), and maybe later they'll want to get equipment upgrades and try 1,000 yards. Again, Bayou's got it, and if they're on their elbows in a sling, they can shoot OK on that target, which is the High-Power target, maybe even without the equipment upgrade. At least good enough to be proud of it, and have fun.?
Jim

 

[jrbet83]

Actually, This rifle:

Won a gold medal in the 3rd match of the FCNC in 2012.

What caliber?

 

[Denys]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Nothing is more tactical that shooting your tactical rifle with a tactical sling, don't you think? And the regular Highpower target is just the ticket for this. I also believe there is no caliber restriction in Any/Any or as we call them at Bayou "Optical Sights Match Rifles." I've shot a few of those with my .223 F-TR rifle but that sucker was so heavy I could barely support it and I didn't do so well. I put together another rifle just for that and I'm hoping to try it out soon.

We do not currently shoot OSMR LR at Bayou, but if/when people want to try it, I'll be happy to squad them accordingly, on the braille targets.

 

[XTR]

What caliber?

308

 

[jrbet83]

308

Ding ding ding ding. It was actually a rhetorical question, because I knew that was a tr rifle. Obviously your new to this thread, so I'll catch you up. The issue is that same exact rifle chambered in any caliber other than 308, has to shoot open. That's what this entire thread is about.

If I could shoot my bipoded gun, against other bipoded guns.....this thread would be over

 

[SWRichmond]

I don't want to shoot anywhere near anyone who is using a muzzle brake. Doing so for me would require plugs and muffs, which interferes with my cheek weld.

I am shooting FTR LR off a Harris bipod and brick bag, 26" bbl. This is how I want to do it. It's actually going quite well, thanks for asking. I am accomplishing what I set out to do: shooting, which I love to do; learning to read the wind using mirage (the flags are wrong more often than not; mirage almost always shows changes many seconds before the flags do); improving and learning constantly. I've been working at this hard for several years. I have not "won" any matches but I am seeing many other indicators of competitive progress. I am having a blast learning, and you guys should take the brakes off your 6.5mm wonder guns and come shoot. I haven't had this much fun in too many years. You can compare your scores if you want to others who are doing the same thing you are and with comparable equipment. I'm not beating most of the FO guys, either, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

If, of course, you're already a master at reading the wind, especially when it is constantly changing, and can still reliably place shots in a 10" circle from 1000 yards, then you probably don't need the experience and should save your money and stay home.

If you wanna get on the effing stair master first, be my guest. If I bothered to get a backpack I could easily carry all my stuff from the car to the line in one trip. I won't be toting a spotting scope and shooting mat around during the Apocalypse.

 

[SWRichmond]

If I could shoot my bipoded gun, against other bipoded guns.....this thread would be over

Unless it has a muzzle brake, sir, you CAN. What exactly is stopping you?

You can go to a match right now and shoot, put up a score, and tell yourself that you beat all the bipoded FTR guns. But you won't be PUBLICLY RECOGNIZED for it. So is it shooting you seek, or the recognition?

 

[Erud]

To those who still claim that esoteric and impractical equipment is not a dominant factor in the current NRA HP, F, or F/TR events I offer the following contest:
You invite me to your favorite match and bring your usual tools and I bring mine (a rucksack, a spotting scope, and a light hunting tack driver in 6.5x55). But before we engage the targets we step on a cinder block for two hundred times with all (!) the gear we intend to set up on the firing line. We keep score by counting the rings and the combined time for cinder block stepping and target engagement. If that is too boring, we can up the ante by engaging targets at unknown distances. Then, let's have this discussion again.

Ok, I'll bite - why? Are we going to have a shooting contest, or do some kind of weird bavarian cardio-commando thing? Do you pose this same challenge to people who partake in other hobbies? "Hey pal, you think you're a pretty good bowler, so why don't you invite me to your local bowling alley and we'll run around the block 5 times in our bowling shoes with our balls, do 50 pushups, and then roll a few frames to see how tough you really are?" Personally, I got into the shooting sports because I really like shooting.

 

[jrbet83]

Unless it has a muzzle brake, sir, you CAN. What exactly is stopping you?

You can go to a match right now and shoot, put up a score, and tell yourself that you beat all the bipoded FTR guns. But you won't be PUBLICLY RECOGNIZED for it. So is it shooting you seek, or the recognition?

The point of competing, is competing. It adds to the experience. Otherwise, why even keep score at any match. For thar matter, why even have matches? We'll start calling them "shooting get togethers"

Could also say the same thing to the tr crowd, for not letting us shoot in their division. They would still get to shoot, so is it about shooting, or getting public recognition?

You make it seem like it's a bad thing to want to compete against similar equipment.

 

[XTR]

Ding ding ding ding. It was actually a rhetorical question, because I knew that was a tr rifle. Obviously your new to this thread, so I'll catch you up. The issue is that same exact rifle chambered in any caliber other than 308, has to shoot open. That's what this entire thread is about.

If I could shoot my bipoded gun, against other bipoded guns.....this thread would be over

OK, one last time, lets just suspend reality and everyone on this site agrees with you.

Now what are you going to do? Are you going to do the work to get the class approved or are you going to sit behind your computer like some little entitled brat and scream that someone needs to go do the work to get it approved.

Which leads back to my post from pages ago. Get off your keyboard and get it approved. Nobody here has shit to say about what the NRA does. Only Tactical is even on one of the US F class teams. (and trust me, I've talked to enough team members, they don't get much input)

For all your bitchin' and whining, didn't VU send your dream class up the line already in the Field Precision Rifle class? Did you bother to read that part?

WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO?

 

[Denys]

My, those crickets are loud, aren't they?

 

[alpine44]

Ok, I'll bite - why? Are we going to have a shooting contest, or do some kind of weird bavarian cardio-commando thing? Do you pose this same challenge to people who partake in other hobbies? "Hey pal, you think you're a pretty good bowler, so why don't you invite me to your local bowling alley and we'll run around the block 5 times in our bowling shoes with our balls, do 50 pushups, and then roll a few frames to see how tough you really are?" Personally, I got into the shooting sports because I really like shooting.

A more correct analogy would be to mention a bowler who uses a joy stick controlled floor jack for his open competition (bowling) balls. Interestingly, one posters here mentioned that even his F-TR .223 "mouse gun" is already too heavy for shooting standing or sitting.

If we look at the long range hunting crowd we find very accurate rifles that you can not just shoot from any position but that you can actually carry for days. The latest/greatest calibers in F-O have been filling freezers and winning matches in slightly different dimension for over two centuries in Europe.

Why do we have to choose in this day and age between using NATO calibers that are ballistically marginal for the distances in F-TR or competing in F-O with shoulder-fired artillery pieces weighing 22 pounds and requiring the sale of your firstborn?

I think that was the question the OP raised and I just wanted to point out how heavily F-TR and F-O relies on esoteric - and IMO impractical - equipment by making people imagine to actually hump all this stuff into action for a few hundred steps.

I guess my "Don't carry what you cannot shoot and don't shoot what you cannot carry" rule is too practical for some shooting sports. Luckily this problem does not exist in practical handgun disciplines if you stay out of the open classes and there are other venues to build or hone rifle skills. It would be nice though if the NRA long gunners would consider taking the caliber constraint out of F-TR (and maybe reduce the max weight to a practical precision hunting rifle, which would free up a slot in my overcrowded safe.)

 

[Denys]

Could you try to explain what you just wrote above?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3.

 

[jrbet83]

My, those crickets are loud, aren't they?

What crickets? Because someone didn't respond in 13 minutes.

XTR, to respond, Im just going to sit here and bitch and whine and hope this thread gets to 10 pages. That's my ultimate goal at this point.

 

[anon]

Ding ding ding ding. It was actually a rhetorical question, because I knew that was a tr rifle. Obviously your new to this thread, so I'll catch you up. The issue is that same exact rifle chambered in any caliber other than 308, has to shoot open. That's what this entire thread is about.

If I could shoot my bipoded gun, against other bipoded guns.....this thread would be over

Actually, I have been shooting a Savage 223 FTR in that class, on a Harris bipod to boot. Spending my money on components and shooting, you know.

 

[Erud]

A more correct analogy would be to mention a bowler who uses a joy stick controlled floor jack for his open competition (bowling) balls. Interestingly, one posters here mentioned that even his F-TR .223 "mouse gun" is already too heavy for shooting standing or sitting.

If we look at the long range hunting crowd we find very accurate rifles that you can not just shoot from any position but that you can actually carry for days. The latest/greatest calibers in F-O have been filling freezers and winning matches in slightly different dimension for over two centuries in Europe.

Why do we have to choose in this day and age between using NATO calibers that are ballistically marginal for the distances in F-TR or competing in F-O with shoulder-fired artillery pieces weighing 22 pounds and requiring the sale of your firstborn?

I think that was the question the OP raised and I just wanted to point out how heavily F-TR and F-O relies on esoteric - and IMO impractical - equipment by making people imagine to actually hump all this stuff into action for a few hundred steps.

I guess my "Don't carry what you cannot shoot and don't shoot what you cannot carry" rule is too practical for some shooting sports. Luckily this problem does not exist in practical handgun disciplines if you stay out of the open classes and there are other venues to build or hone rifle skills. It would be nice though if the NRA long gunners would consider taking the caliber constraint out of F-TR (and maybe reduce the max weight to a practical precision hunting rifle, which would free up a slot in my overcrowded safe.)

Your last paragraph sums it up. F-Class is not a practical shooting sport. It's a game of shooting stationary, known-size targets at known distances. Some people get really good at it and some people spend a lot of money on it. Some of those people are the same people. It has nothing to do with hunting, stalking, hiking, sniping, or the Apocolypse. It's just a game.