F T/R Competition New F-Class Division

[Denys]

What crickets? Because someone didn't respond in 13 minutes.

XTR, to respond, Im just going to sit here and bitch and whine and hope this thread gets to 10 pages. That's my ultimate goal at this point.

My comment has nothing to do with response time. It has everything to do with the content of any eventual response. What will YOU do to further your 'concept'? Answer: Not a thing.

Instead, you'll just keep harping as you just stated.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3.

 

[Denys]

Your last paragraph sums it up. F-Class is not a practical shooting sport. It's a game of shooting stationary, known-size targets at known distances. Some people get really good at it and some people spend a lot of money on it. Some of those people are the same people. It has nothing to do with hunting, stalking, hiking, sniping, or the Apocolypse. It's just a game.

And that's a difficult concept to grasp for some Sniper's Hide denizens. F-Class is F-Class.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3.

 

[jrbet83]

My comment has nothing to do with response time. It has everything to do with the content of any eventual response. What will YOU do to further your 'concept'? Answer: Not a thing.

Instead, you'll just keep harping as you just stated.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3.

7......almost there

 

[alpine44]

Your last paragraph sums it up. F-Class is not a practical shooting sport. It's a game of shooting stationary, known-size targets at known distances. Some people get really good at it and some people spend a lot of money on it. Some of those people are the same people. It has nothing to do with hunting, stalking, hiking, sniping, or the Apocolypse. It's just a game.

Thanks to you and everyone else for clarifying what this sport is about and what it is not so people can "adjust their sights" accordingly.

 

[Tactical]

To add to your analogy though... Imagine if over 50% of the cars that "compete" against the dragsters are mustangs. AND it used to be all mustangs 10 years ago. It isn't unreasonable for there to be a mustang division.

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That is exactly what has happened and I agree with making the division. I used to shoot a straight up tactical rifle and it was more fun back then.


Out in Sacramento, Jim Oconnell who is a better shooter than anyone on here, runs many matches and sets up a special Tactical Class to shoot with F Class. It uses same F Class Targets and causes no problems. Vu worked with Jim to get that going.

Now since I was one of the very first US F TR Team Members and helped set the fng thing up, went to Two World Championships and did OK I find it crummy that other F Class Shooters are shitting on guys who are attempting to get a division for Tactical Shooters. We should be helping that to get going. Because it will add more shooters to the shooting sports and strengthen our base. This elite Golf Club Members only mentality is pure crap

The frame work was done by Vu, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just tweak it. Get rid of bullet length restriction for tactical class. Just use Over All Caliber length of 2.8". That can be checked with gauge on line and Darrell ( Last two cycles Team Captain" and I I ( Last Vice Captain" did so several times. Use a rod for barrel length and your done.

 

[SWRichmond]

I note with some interest that they do not wish to be included in F open where they know they are unlikely to win, but rather in FTR where they know their rifles give them a substantial ballistic advantage over the 308- and 223-only shooters, meaning they will not only be able to compete but would be likely to win.

= "Thanks for creating this awesome sport that is growing extremely rapidly. We are all very interested. Please let us in your ballistically disadvantaged division so we can s*** all over you. If you'd like to keep competing with us then you must buy all new equipment. we are happy that we can use the equipment we have already purchased."

I don't think anyone can really blame FTR shooters for not embracing this concept.

 

[damoncali]

I note with some interest that they do not wish to be included in F open where they know they are unlikely to win, but rather in FTR where they know their rifles give them a substantial ballistic advantage over the 308- and 223-only shooters, meaning they will not only be able to compete but would be likely to win.

= "Thanks for creating this awesome sport that is growing extremely rapidly. We are all very interested. Please let us in your ballistically disadvantaged division so we can s*** all over you. If you'd like to keep competing with us then you must buy all new equipment. we are happy that we can use the equipment we have already purchased."

I don't think anyone can really blame FTR shooters for not embracing this concept.

I don't think that's what people are suggesting at all. People want a third, separate division. Judging by this thread, some want a "TR limited" sort of class - .308/.223 but with reasonable bipods, fieldable barrel lengths, etc. Others seem to want a second bipod only class for rifles of any caliber. Others don't seem to know what they want.

I like the idea of the first option, a distinct, third military-flavored, caliber-limited "tactical" class. Use whatever targets are necessary. But there are so many of those shooters at our events that it makes sense to accommodate them in their own class. It's not just a few guys. I bet it's 2/3 or more of the current TR shooters.

 

[memilanuk]

In the past... what SWRichmond mentioned was pretty much what was being asked - people who built rigs to take advantage of or 'game' the tactical venue general lack of rules to give them an edge in wind reading and range estimation didn't like finding themselves on the wrong side of the differential when they looked at F-Class and found themselves thrown in with the wolves in F-Open - people who had built rigs specifically to take advantage of the rules in that category. They thought they should be in the FTR division because they shot off a bipod - and because they'd be back at the top of the food chain in terms of ballistics again. Didn't go over well with the FTR crowd, obviously.

This time 'round... I think what was asked was a little more reasonable. I disagree with the 2/3 or more, though... based on what I see, maybe 1/4 or less - probably varies somewhat with region, etc.

I do think that the set of rules that Vu set up for FPR would work reasonably well for both groups... I've even put it out there to the local 'tactical' crowd in this state via the SHWW thread a couple times that if they will show up, they can shoot under those rules. The caveats being... it *is* an NRA match, so 'Match Winner' is restricted to NRA sanctioned categories, and there must be at least three people in a category for cash awards - same rules as apply for Any Rifle, FTR, F-Open, etc. Had a number of people respond enthusiastically online - 'Yeah! Yeah! We'll be there!'

Guess how many have *ever* shown up to put their money where their mouth is...? One, maybe two. I get more attendance from the occasional hunter or general LR enthusiast (who would more or less fall under the FPR 'unlimited' group) than I ever see from the tactical crowd.

Again, for the people who think this is a grand idea - get out there and shoot. Don't just tell people you want it - show us.

 

[XTR]

milanuk reminds me of one of the points that has been missed here. Want to guess how many matches in the last 3 yrs I've been grouped with F-Open because either F-Open or F-TR didn't have enough shooters to constitute a separate class? (Ive lost count) The point being that at local matches, if you are splitting the pool you are still going to be looking at match results with "Match Winner" next to the name of the guy shooting the Open gun more often that you realize.

 

[wwrhodes91]

I don't think that's what people are suggesting at all. People want a third, separate division. Judging by this thread, some want a "TR limited" sort of class - .308/.223 but with reasonable bipods, fieldable barrel lengths, etc. Others seem to want a second bipod only class for rifles of any caliber. Others don't seem to know what they want.

I like the idea of the first option, a distinct, third military-flavored, caliber-limited "tactical" class. Use whatever targets are necessary. But there are so many of those shooters at our events that it makes sense to accommodate them in their own class. It's not just a few guys. I bet it's 2/3 or more of the current TR shooters.

Exactly

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[damoncali]

This time 'round... I think what was asked was a little more reasonable. I disagree with the 2/3 or more, though... based on what I see, maybe 1/4 or less - probably varies somewhat with region, etc.

I agree - I was referring to my particular club's local matches. Typically 60/40 TR/Open, and of the TR, I would guess 2/3 would be in a Tactical class. Now that I think about it, that might be a high estimate. Maybe 1/3 to 1/2. Still, a significant number for us at least. I'm curious now, so I'm going to count next week. We tend to pull about 30-32 shooters total for a match, for what its worth.

I bet half the Open competitors at any given match are using "no chance of winning" gear - .22-250's with 55 grain bullets, 6.5 Grendel AR's on bipods, etc. Nobody seems to care. We all have fun.

But the tactical rifles do form a noticeable bloc of shooters. Are they "tactical guys"? I don't know. They have "tactical rifles". There's a difference. If NRA High Power isn't your game, no amount of reclassification is going to bring you in to shoot. But for High Power guys with "tactical rifles" I think a separate division makes sense, and in my admittedly limited (to F class at least) experience, there are more than a few of them. A good parallel is service rifle XTC.

 

[jrbet83]

milanuk reminds me of one of the points that has been missed here. Want to guess how many matches in the last 3 yrs I've been grouped with F-Open because either F-Open or F-TR didn't have enough shooters to constitute a separate class? (Ive lost count) The point being that at local matches, if you are splitting the pool you are still going to be looking at match results with "Match Winner" next to the name of the guy shooting the Open gun more often that you realize.

And what's the point?

 

[Denys]

Now since I was one of the very first US F TR Team Members and helped set the fng thing up, went to Two World Championships and did OK I find it crummy that other F Class Shooters are shitting on guys who are attempting to get a division for Tactical Shooters. We should be helping that to get going. Because it will add more shooters to the shooting sports and strengthen our base. This elite Golf Club Members only mentality is pure crap

The frame work was done by Vu, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just tweak it. Get rid of bullet length restriction for tactical class. Just use Over All Caliber length of 2.8". That can be checked with gauge on line and Darrell ( Last two cycles Team Captain" and I I ( Last Vice Captain" did so several times. Use a rod for barrel length and your done.

To say that I am befuddled by the highlighted statement is putting it mildly. I do not remember any F Class shooters on this thread shitting on people attempting to get a division. There was some push back at the idea of wanting to change the existing rules of F-TR to make it easier for "tactical rigs" to be competitive. But I don't remember anyone saying "don't even think of starting a grass roots movement, of setting a framework of rules, of finding like-minded shooters who would come out and compete and build from there and then take it to the NRA for approval." I would have to reread the whole thread again, but I'm fairly confident that I won't find that sentiment in the posts.

What I do remember is a lot of people saying, "get off the keyboard, and start working it. And, oh by the way, here are some issues to consider while you're making up the rules. And, oh by the way (2), there has already been some approach made to the NRA about this concept, maybe you should research it, get the proposal and start assembling shooters to compete under these rules and see where it goes."


If some people show up at our monthly LR match and want to play under FPR rules, I will have no problem accommodating them, and the club will take their money. They will have to follow the no-brake/no-suppressor NRA rule.

Now, I know that a lot of you think classification is all bunk. And in many cases, I agree with you, but only up to a point. There is quite a bit of competition going on at the various classification levels at our club, and people seem happy with that. The HMs in F-Open and Match Rifles have their matches going on and it's fun to watch. The masters in those two division always like to throw in a curve and win a match or two. We have quite a few experts in F-TR and that's been fairly rambunctious there too. I just got kicked out of that classification so now, I'll be alone for a while or playing with whichever F-open master drifts over for a match. This rivalry is throughout the classifications and people love it when they get classified and get away from the Master/Unclassified thing and start having fun in Marksman and Sharpshooter.

But also, when someone gets bumped up in classification, that shows progress and people enjoy that. It's an achievement and I think many people are proud of their achievements; not everyone gets to go to the big matches or the Nationals or the Worlds. What makes a local club strong is having people come back again and grow.

So when these FRP folks sign up they will see that there is no classification for them since FRP is not recognized or tracked by the NRA. You all think it's not an issue but you're not the one getting the evil eye from these shooters. And who's to say what the rules are going to be if and when the NRA finally sanctions this division. So if they shoot a .308 and they want some type of classification, they should shoot in F-TR hoping that whatever classification they achieve if and when FRP is sanctioned would apply just as currently whatever you achieve in F-Open or F-TR is your F-class classification. If they shoot other than .223 or .308 they can shoot in F-Open and they can keep track of how they score one against the other. If there are enough of them, we could score them against each other and report back the scores to the NRA in F-Open or F-TR.

If and when the NRA sanctions the division, I will have ended my penance as Match Director years ago.

 

[Tactical]

Deny, I don't know if we have met or not and I thank you for running matches and helping this sport grow.

My comment about F classers shitting on guys is just how I have read these threads and seen in person while shooting matches. The net in written form is often misunderstood but I remember how many of the F Classers acted when I showed up with a Tactical Rifle.