New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variable?

[Snakum]

I must be going nuts. I bought two boxes of PMC Bronze FMJ-BT in .308 from AmmoToGo when I was first trying to find decent practice ammo. And even before I floated and stiffened the weapon the PMC would hold close to MOA all the way out to 300 yards without sorting it by weight and OAL. The cases were nice and shiny just like any factory Match ammo. Nicely polished, no discoloration nor tool marks.

Now I just got a new batch of it from ATG and the cases have a greyish tint down to about 1/8 inch below the shoulder (wish I had a camera). There are no ridges nor tool marks of any kind, just the discoloration. But this batch patterns like a shotgun. I mean this crap WILL NOT EVEN GROUP at 100 yards. I literally thought my rifle or scope was broken. I checked all my screws and mounts (they were fine) and adjusted my elevation and went back to the Silver Bear to see if I was going nuts. The Silver Bear shot fine. So I adjusted back the "PMC Bronze Zero" and I could not even get a pattern. One round would land 2" right and 5" low and the next would hit 4" high and 10" left and then the next wouldn't even hit the paper! Unbelievable, considering how well the first batch of it shot.

So my questions are ...

Has PMC always been this variable, or is this just a really bad batch?

And just for shitzandgiggles ... if this new lot of ammo shows the discoloration in every single box but no tool marks from over-seating/over-crimping, why would the first batch look perfectly fine all the way up and down the case? And is whatever caused the discoloration likely contributing to the horrid accuracy?

Danke schon meine herren!

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variable?

I've never know PMC as precision ammo... just for plinking stuff. I'd go get some black hills, corbon or FGMM if you want cloverleaves.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variable?

Not sure what PMC normally looks like because I haven't used it but I can tell you that all of the Lake City MATCH ammo I've used has that same discoloration on the neck and shoulders. Did you change bullet weights or anything else about the ammo? Or is it EXACTLY the same ammo you've always used? That's strange that it would look different. I've never heard of one batch looking so different from another. Then again, I'm certainly NOT the most knowledgeable guy here!

 

[Snakum]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variable?

No, this last PMC order was the exact same specs as the first. The discoloration is the same as that seen in the picture of ATI (Turkish) .308 FMJ on the ATG site. Was just curious if it might have anything to do with the horrible accuracy. I guess that discoloration is pretty common then, I'd just never seen it. The first batch of PMC was pretty awesome practice ammo. Shame it varies so much.

About FGMM ... I separate my needs as Practice Hunting Ammo and Real Hunting Ammo. And Practice Target Ammo and Competition Target Ammo. FGMM is my Competition Target Ammo but I can't afford to use it for practice because I shoot a LOT. I have my practice hunting ammo and real hunting ammo covered, as well (Silver Bear/Federal Fusion or PowerShok). Now I just need some accurate but inexpensive practice target ammo. Hopefully the Georgia Arms BTHP will get here soon and prove accurate enough for practice. I thought about trying HSM BTHP but SC makes you send a signed notorized copy of your birth certificate and six personal references in order to buy it. Screw that.

 

[tikkafan]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variable?

That discoloration is case annealing. It's completely cosmetic and non-functional. More expensive brands tumble the brass to polish that off.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ty the Sako Guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That discoloration is case annealing. It's completely cosmetic and non-functional. More expensive brands tumble the brass to polish that off. </div></div>

Are you saying that annealing is cosmetic!?

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ty the Sako Guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That discoloration is case annealing. It's completely cosmetic and non-functional. More expensive brands tumble the brass to polish that off. </div></div>

Actually the annealing is quite functional - it gives the brass case a specific hardness in the shoulder and neck area per the specifications of the loaded round.

Try breaking down a few rounds, then weigh the powder and projectile. If the powder loads are reasonably consistent then stuff a match bullet back in or a Hornady 3037 bullet and see how it shoots.

 

[i_Adam_i18]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ty the Sako Guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That discoloration is case annealing. It's completely cosmetic and non-functional. More expensive brands tumble the brass to polish that off. </div></div>

Are you saying that annealing is cosmetic!? </div></div>

I was thinking the same thing. Annealing is to re-soften the case neck so it doesn't get brittle after repeated firings from what I've heard. That seems functional to me, at least if you plan on reloading.

ETA: apparently it provides consistent neck tension as well, which would increase accuracy.

 

[salmonaxe]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

Back when the PMC .223 came in the white box, it shot great in my AR-15's. Roughly MOA. Now the case of PMC bronze I recently shot through would only get about 3MOA. I ended up shooting it mainly offhand at a shorter range tactical competition instead.

I ended up buying some S&B at the time to see how that shot and it held MOA. I was surprised by that.

Anyway, I'm guessing that the .308 PMC is suffering the same as the .223 stuffs.

 

[Snakum]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

Ahhh ... that makes sense.

Hopefully I'll find I got a bad box and the rest will be ok. It's raining and blowing snow right now but I think I can set up a 100 yard shot from my daughter's bedroom window, and as soon as I get the rifle back together I'll try a couple from each of the boxes.

(The wife and kids are out of town this week so I won't be blowing anyone's eardrums out.

)

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually the annealing is quite functional - it gives the brass case a specific hardness in the shoulder and neck area per the specifications of the loaded round.
</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">Annealing</span> is functional, but the <span style="font-weight: bold">appearance</span> of annealed brass (ie, discolored neck and shoulder) is purely cosmetic. Most manufacturers polish their brass up first to remove those discolorations before selling it commercially; for the military (and certain other commercial destinations) manufacturers simply omit the polishing to save time and/or money.

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

FWIW I had a lot of PMC .45acp that produced 6 squibs. I haven't bought any since. This was about 3 years ago.

 

[Snakum]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

I started on a new box of the PMC today and wouldn't ya know it ... it shot fine. Shot very well, in fact. I guess I got almost a full box fulla lemons and the rest is ok. We had no-wind conditions today and everything on the weapon was tightened up and I started with a completely clean bore. One very odd thing though, the PMC Bronze FMJBT becomes MORE accurate at longer ranges than at 100 and 150. Never seen that before with any ammo in any of my weapons.

I'm still surprised at the Silver Bear soft points. I shot thru my data card with those today too before the wind started kicking up, and it was shooting almost MOA out to 300 yards. Niiiice ... for $7 a box.

 

[km71107]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

I've tried their 45/70, 300Winmag & 22lr. It was all crap. 8 rounds out of a box of 45/70 would not fire. The 300 & 22 fired fine but wouldn't group worth a damn. I'll never waste my money on PMC again.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: km71107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've tried their 45/70, 300Winmag & 22lr. It was all crap. 8 rounds out of a box of 45/70 would not fire. The 300 & 22 fired fine but wouldn't group worth a damn. I'll never waste my money on PMC again.</div></div>

Err, huh?

I'm fairly certain you're thinking of another brand (unless this was a really long time ago?). PMC doesn't make .45/70, .300 Win Mag, or .22 LR ammunition.

http://www.pmcammo.com/pdf/2010-PMC-Catalog.pdf

 

[RADcustom]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: km71107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've tried their 45/70, 300Winmag & 22lr. It was all crap. 8 rounds out of a box of 45/70 would not fire. The 300 & 22 fired fine but wouldn't group worth a damn. I'll never waste my money on PMC again.</div></div>

Err, huh?

I'm fairly certain you're thinking of another brand (unless this was a really long time ago?). PMC doesn't make .45/70, .300 Win Mag, or .22 LR ammunition.

http://www.pmcammo.com/pdf/2010-PMC-Catalog.pdf </div></div>


Think again.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=255765
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=362657

PMC may not catalog it anymore, but it wasn't that long ago that they did.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: km71107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've tried their 45/70, 300Winmag & 22lr. It was all crap. 8 rounds out of a box of 45/70 would not fire. The 300 & 22 fired fine but wouldn't group worth a damn. I'll never waste my money on PMC again.</div></div>

Err, huh?

I'm fairly certain you're thinking of another brand (unless this was a really long time ago?). PMC doesn't make .45/70, .300 Win Mag, or .22 LR ammunition.

http://www.pmcammo.com/pdf/2010-PMC-Catalog.pdf </div></div>


Think again.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=255765
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=362657

PMC may not catalog it anymore, but it wasn't that long ago that they did.</div></div>

My mistake, you are correct.

It does appear however that the issues with older PMC may have been associated with their American subsidiary/partner's ammo production, rather than the current Korean plants.

 

[Snakum]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

I bought two boxes of Federal match and ran thru a box of it today. In my little sporter it shot under 1 MOA out to 500 yards and went about 6 and an eighth at 600 yards. If it shoots consistently under MOA at these intermediate ranges, is that good enough for local tactical comps that run 600 yards or less? Assuming everything else is up to snuff of course - reading wind, making the times, etc. I don't expect to actually place in any competition, just want to learn from the experience without being completely embarrassed. Would you spend $400 on a mil dot scope and the $50 entry fee with only a .85 MOA weapon? Or wait till you could afford a 10fcp or 700P?

I read these guys getting .25 groups so I'm not sure mine would even be worth scoping at three times that.

 

[medbill]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

I need some decent practice ammo for my .308 as well, what do you guys recommend? My favorite is FGMM but I just can't afford to practice with it. Hunting I like Federal Vital Shock, would be nice to have a decent affordable .308 round to use.

 

[vmts4me]

Re: New PMC is bad. Has it always been this variab

In 2005 I got some PMC factory ammo with 69gr SMK's. Shot excellant in 2 different Rock River uppers, hvy bbls, 20" and 24", both were 1-8, both from rbprecision.com Wish I still had the case of ammo and the RR's.