Gunsmithing New Project rifle, for school

[Keith Johns]

Here's my new project rifle for gunsmithing school. I am going to document as best as I can, all my work done to this rifle over the next year or so.

For now, just a new bolt knob, aluminum firing pin shaft and SS pin, upgraded spring, and aluminum anodized shroud.

Base rifle, got for $350

Upgraded firing pin, shaft, spring, and aluminum shroud

Bolt knob prep

10-32 hardened steel stud installed

My sako extractor jig I made.

Phoenix 4 groove knob, not tapped and screwed on yet

Next will be a Sako style extractor, then blasting and Cerakote

Total price so far: $351

Hope you enjoy this project as it comes along.

 

[embalmer883]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I'm sure we will. I wish I was to where I could do what your doing. (going to gunsmithing school) Good luck! if your work so far is any indication I bet it's gonna be an interesting build!

 

[300sniper]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

that's cool. i didn't realize you were installing a stud in your bolt handles. i thought you were threading them. i think the stud is probably a better way. thanks for sharing the pictures of you fixtures.

good luck with your school and rifle build.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

tag, this will be enjoyable and educational to watch.

Thanks for doing this. You get extra credit for it?

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Do you have a final design yet or work in progress?

 

[858]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I have reservations about the thread inserts strength.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Thanks!

Yea I started out threading the handles to 5/16x24tpi like many others do. However, after getting some advice from a gentleman on here, I decided to try the 10-32 stud method. I tested the strength of the studs and was very happy with the test results. It would be next to impossible to brake in the field. The silver solder would probably brake before the stud would since you have far more leverage over the solder.
I will post a pic today of the last 6 or 7 factory handle balls I've cut off. They each have a void in the very center where the stud goes. So, drilling it out for a stud releaves me of this void I find in almost every bolt handle.
I also make 6061 aluminum sleeves that are 5/16x24 OD and 10-32 ID. So, I can apply the 10-32 stud method to badger knobs(or any 5/16x24 knob)

No, no extra credit. This is an assignment. We need a barreled action first semester for stock making, then Ill get to work on it more second semester when we have to do $7k in gunwork in 9 weeks. We get nice discounts on everything from barrels to bluing, so I should be able to build a nice ass 6br or whatever I decide for under 1500.
No design decisions yet. I'll decide as I go along

Thanks guys. As soon as my extractor gets here Ill give it a try and post pics

 

[CDiPrecision]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

a 10-32 setscrew will fail alot more easily than you may think. There's guys on this site that have torn the whole arm off Rem 700 bolts, and they required re-brazing.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

What school are you going to?

Hopefully these words dont come back to haunt you...lol

"It would be next to impossible to brake in the field"

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I guess anything *can* brake in the field. I've never personally ripped a bolt handle off the body, but I hear people that claim to have before.
If one of my studs brakes due to machining or defects, I will gladly fix it.

Here's a picture of the voids that are in almost every handle I cut. Threading 5/16x24 leaves this void in there, right in the center. Replacing the void with a stud removes it

Using the studs, for me, works far better. I'm very glad someone was cool enough to lend me that bit of advice.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Yavapai, in Prescott, AZ. It's a 2 year, 7 hour a day, small gunsmithing class. I checked out the shop in person and talked to the head instructor in person. Everything seems great. I think it will be the perfect next step.

 

[Hateca]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CDiPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a 10-32 setscrew will fail alot more easily than you may think. There's guys on this site that have torn the whole arm off Rem 700 bolts, and they required re-brazing. </div></div>

Boltripper dosen't count.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have reservations about the thread inserts strength.

</div></div>

Have this happen a few times and you won't have any more reservations.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Listen to Randy... he's is one of the pros who knows.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Listen to Randy... he's is one of the pros who knows. </div></div>

+1!

Helpful as always Randy, thank you

 

[xtremerange]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Does using the stud mean you might be able to do Win/FN M70 bolt handles now?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I have thought about it. I'm worried the diameter of the handle just before the factory ball is too small. I don't own a M70 to try it on. Plus, I'd need to make a jig for that bolt in both RH and LH.

It will happen in the future

 

[nutzo396]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I don't pretend to be a Gsmith but an easy and cheap way to make a fixture for holding differnt bolts would be to use a hard neoprene.All you do is roughly trace it on both sides of the neoprene and start to hollow it out a bit by hand without taking it to full depth. clamp it up in your vice and you're all set. I've done it at work when trying to hold an object with lots of shape and it works well. By the way, I like your idea of tapping the bolt rather than trying to thread it.If it does snap off for some odd reason, It would be a WHOLE lot cheaper to fix.
Cheers!

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Jigs like this must be very rigid. Unless I'm mistaken, neoprene is much too soft for use as a jig. If it's not VERY rigid, it defeats the whole purpose of the jig.

 

[nutzo396]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

There are all different grades of neoprene. The stuff that I've used is very rigid ( you can't compress it with your finger at all.)If I think about it, I'll try to throw something in a bridgeport and take a pic of what I'm talking about at work and get back to you. It should work great for facing the end off and tapping the bolt.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I just worry about rigidity while drilling with a 5/32" end mill. If it(bolt handle) moves even a few thou, it can break the end mill. Then I'm screwed. Even aluminum is soft in terms of a jig. Steel with a brass or aluminum lining would probably be best. Stiffer = better.
That said, I've seen video of people that just clamp the bolt in the mill vise

. But as you can see, I take a little more care than that

If you work on a Bridgeport at work than shiit you probably work on a better mill than I.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CDiPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a 10-32 setscrew will fail alot more easily than you may think. There's guys on this site that have torn the whole arm off Rem 700 bolts, and they required re-brazing. </div></div>

Boltripper dosen't count.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have reservations about the thread inserts strength.

</div></div>

Have this happen a few times and you won't have any more reservations.

</div></div>




I guarentee I have installed more knobs then everyone on this site combined 10,000+ , I have seen two break like Randy's picture, both were being beat on when it happened. The 10-32 stud method is easier and why some have switched to it. PLAIN AND SIMPLE

 

[Hateca]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

George is correct in that most that I have seen can be directly attributed to beating on the bolt handle. A few were attributed to leaving the bolt in the rifle inside a closed case. I have only seen one that came off in someone’s hand but if the bolt handle had been abused in the past this could have been the reason.

Most bolt handle that separate at the weld joint from the bolt body most likely fall into this category as well, abused in the past and got away with it only to have it come off in your hand at some other time.

I have seen one bolt handle that I was installing a Badger knob on that the void was close to the surface that the machined shaft snapped off during the machining process before the threads were even cut.

Both methods for the most part are just fine and will give trouble free service, it's just another way of doing it.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

So we can agree it's a matter of preference?

If you run a CNC mill, the 5/16x24 method is easy as hell because you don't have to do anything besides run computer programs.

If you run a manual mill, I think the 10-32 stud method is easier to do.

As far as strength, I never said one was weaker than another. I'm the last person to ever worry about breaking bolt handles off. I'm no "bolt ripper" and taking a 2x4 to my rifle just doesn't make sense to me like it does other people...

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you run a CNC mill, the 5/16x24 method is easy as hell because you don't have to do anything besides run computer programs.
</div></div>

Your showing your age and lack of knoledge.

1. CNC's dont run themselves.
2. Its takes someone schooled in g-code programing to write the program. 1 -2 years minimum to be good at it.
3. Make the fixture, one that will last and is easy to part change.
4. Dont forget buying the $50,000 machine to begin with. (alot of hard work to get to that point)
5. Tooling.

12 years ago there was no-one doing this. Myself and Marty from Badger together came up with the Idea after shooting a Styer SSG69. The first knobs were made just like Keiths one at a time, the second batch a local machine shop made us (100) I still see these come in on rifles for there 3rd barrel functioning flawlessly for 12 years. Badger took over making them for me in 2000, Badger added it as a product in 2001. Now there are 50+ guys making the "tactical knob" and hundreds installing them, and some are now quick to call their way better. I call B.S. Only one way has stood the test of time. Others have time to catch up. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but dont knock what others have been doing long before you Keith.

 

[wi50]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I have a question and without stepping on anyone's toes, but why would one go through all the damn work of fixing the rem handle? They aren't quite timed or located right to begin with in many cases.

By the time one fixes them, does this mod or that mod, gets it fastened to the bolt body it just seams easier to get a new handle and tig weld it on. I've done it and it's a snap. A little pissing around on the location and timeing but for those who do it on a regular basis it's much easier. Unless you have the machine and fixtrue that GAP has, it's (in my opinion) cheapier and easier to just take and have a new handle put on a bolt. And it functions and extracts way better than the original.

 

[Hunt]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

You hit the nail on the head....Don't need a hurst shifter unless receiver is trued and handle is timed. Why go half-ass and just true receiver?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wi50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question and without stepping on anyone's toes, but why would one go through all the damn work of fixing the rem handle? They aren't quite timed or located right to begin with in many cases.

By the time one fixes them, does this mod or that mod, gets it fastened to the bolt body it just seams easier to get a new handle and tig weld it on. I've done it and it's a snap. A little pissing around on the location and timeing but for those who do it on a regular basis it's much easier. Unless you have the machine and fixtrue that GAP has, it's (in my opinion) cheapier and easier to just take and have a new handle put on a bolt. And it functions and extracts way better than the original. </div></div>

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

George I didn't say either way is better. And I'm not saying what you do every day is unskillful or undeserving of the credit you get. On the contrary I greatly respect what you do and how well you do it.
Your CNC mill takes 2 minutes to contour the bolt handle right? That's all I'm saying. It helps to do 10,000 of them if you can prep it in 2 minutes.
I don't think you realize how much I respect your work George.

I didn't put down anyones method of doing this, and I haven't put anyone down ever, period.

I started this thread to show my rifle project as it goes along, it's kinda steering off course...

 

[Blackburn]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Just thought I would throw my $.02 in here. I personally know both Keith and his father, Brad. Both are topnotch people. Keith and I have talked many times as he has started his business. He has the utmost respect for the talented 'smiths on this site. I know that he has talked to more than one from here because he wanted to pick the brains of the best. He has also expressed his desire to do the best work that he possibly can. And in time, his work will only get better as he has a strong desire to learn. Just thought I would throw this out there as it is easy to take somthing the wrong way that is said on the www.

 

[Brandon972]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guarentee I have installed more knobs then everyone on this site combined 10,000+ </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your showing your age and lack of knoledge !</div></div>

Wow where did that come from ? I didnt see anything that he said theat would warrant that hate !?!? Everyone has to start somewhere even you.

 

[Tactical]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I have broken two handles like Randy showed. No doubt the handle creates more torque on the joint than a stock bolt does but its a trade off as no way I can run a stock bolt as fast as I can one with a bolt handle.

Now I have seen several bolt knob designs and several ways of the install. I am not metal expert but I prefer having the shaft welded up for strength for peace of mind.

Understand I have been running bolt knob mods since 2001 on most of my rifles, with only the two problems

 

[Mike]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon972</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guarentee I have installed more knobs then everyone on this site combined 10,000+ Your showing your age and lack of knoledge ! </div></div>

Wow where did that come from ? I didnt see anything that he said theat would warrant that hate !?!? Everyone has to start somewhere even you.</div></div>

First Brandon,

Do not combine quotes. It makes you appear to have an agenda.

So to break the quotes down, let's look at the "hate" (thin skinned BS word) that one of the most accomplished gunsmiths in the world is saying.

This first quote that George said:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guarentee I have installed more knobs then everyone on this site combined 10,000+ </div></div>

This shows that George is by far the leading authority when it comes to experience installing these bolt knobs. I would be surprised if anyone could match him by half.

Now the second part of your misquote.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your showing your age and lack of knoledge ! </div></div>

What he is saying here is that when AZPrecision opens his mouth and makes blanket statements such as this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you run a CNC mill, the 5/16x24 method is easy as hell because you don't have to do anything besides run computer programs. If you run a manual mill, I think the 10-32 stud method is easier to do.</div></div>

It shows he does not know what he is talking about. This, along with the fact that when he introduced himself he admitted he was<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline"> young and inexperienced</span></span>, warrants an experienced gunsmith such as George to correct him. Yes, even George started at with no knowledge, however I guarantee he didn't go around making blanket incorrect machining statements.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Again, what I said was NOT a shot at anyone. I was referring to the fact that bolt prep on a CNC mill takes 2 minutes, and it takes(me) an hour on a manual. That's 30x longer for me.
I should have defined what I meant by "easy" so as to not offend anyone. But then again I never thought anyone would be offended by that.

It was said above that the 10-32 stud method is easier... no one got offended by that.


I respect everyone on this site, ESPECIALLY the professional gunsmiths and people who run this site(moderators). Please, don't ever get that confused.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CDiPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a 10-32 setscrew will fail alot more easily than you may think. There's guys on this site that have torn the whole arm off Rem 700 bolts, and they required re-brazing. </div></div>

Boltripper dosen't count.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have reservations about the thread inserts strength.

</div></div>

Have this happen a few times and you won't have any more reservations.

</div></div>

Wow, is this how Bolt Ripper got his name?

 

[Pok]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I think everyone is too sensitive, I didnt see AZ saying anything insulting. Maybe people are looking to hard for insults.

I dont think his use of the word "easy" was meant to be a slap at anyone.

 

[Bryan27]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I'd like to see this thread get back on track, it could be an interesting thread. I also don't think that AZ was shorting anyone by saying that doing the machine work on a CNC is easier than his method.....it probably is. The work that you did to be able to afford that CNC is what allowed you to get to that point in your career and the CNC allows you to do it more efficiently now. When AZ gets to that level in his career I'm sure he will do the same.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Whether success or failure, I'll post pics of my Sako extractor installation as soon as I do it. It will be my first time on a real bolt(I've been practicing on a .75" bar of 4140)

Should be tomorrow

 

[Brandon972]

Re: New Project rifle, for school


I have no agenda just thought the two statements where uncalled for. I think anyone who reads this thread can see that. But whatever.LOL

 

[m1k3]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I don't see what the point was to the comments that followed the pics but I'm looking foward to see more pics and instructions on how you do what you do. Keep the pics coming.

Thanks!

Mike

 

[Pennzoil]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Thanks for sharing the pictures of your build Keith. I'm interested in seeing the Sako installation and Cerakote as I want this done to my 700 in the future.

Also, If you get any free time maybe I'll make a road trip and we can go shooting.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Lets get this post back on track, I am not throwing punches, I am only defending the way we have installed bolt knobs for years. I have no problem with the way Randy and Keith are doing it. If you read the entire post, Someone posted concerns about their method not being sound. Keith and Randy fired back with Pictures of broken parts without a story of how they broke. leading anyone to believe that it just fell off. I defended that just, as they did prior, My post to Keith about his age is between myself and him, he has been offered aprenticeship here after he finishs school. Keith and his Father have been customers for some time and the comment was purly educational for Keith as he delves into CNC machines he will find that there is nothing "Easy" about them. Fast yes, not easy.

Also , Randy and I are freinds and we help each other on projects all the time. I know he is not butt hurt by any comments I made. Im sure from the outside looking in I look like some kind of asshole in this thread, Thats not the case I like and respect both Randy and Keith and Im pretty sure they know it.

Keith , I hope your thread is back on topic now. Lets see the sako extractor cut!!

 

[PCR]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

George has gone way out of his way to help Keith and I from the first time we called him with a bad chamber in an HD rifle back in 2003. Fixed it and had it back to us in a week or 2. Didn't hardly charge us for it either.

We've had no less than great experiences with George and GAP ever since. GAP is building me a 7wsm right now.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Sorry for any misunderstanding. I didn't use the right word choice, and it wasn't really what I meant.


No package from Brownells today. Hopefully I'll get the extractor tomorrow. I'm starting to wonder how much harder the bolt body will be than the bar I've played around with. How many variences of "4140" are there?

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No package from Brownells today. Hopefully I'll get the extractor tomorrow. I'm starting to wonder how much harder the bolt body will be than the bar I've played around with. How many variences of "4140" are there? </div></div>

Its not hard, Carbide endmills are worth the $$ though. Run them fast and cut slow.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

I was told my mill cant use Carbide. not rigid enough...
Haven't tried yet.

If you saw what I've been working on... I've had to make it work. And it has

Once school is over there will be much better machines at my dad house. We'll both know how to use them by then. And I could do a lot more even now if I wasn't held back by my machines(money). When I have some decent machines it will really get fun. Or be moving on to a shop with better machines than I could buy

 

[300sniper]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

what milling machine are you using now?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

It's an ACRA... weighs about 550lbs dirty

I'll show photos of it and my lathe when I post more pics of the build. I'll start the extractor install tomorrow if it gets here but I want to order new end mills before cutting the spring hole, or plunging the hole at the rear of the slot for the tail of the extractor(its the tubb2000 extractor kit).
I've seen a Badger and how they function, but I've never seen the other style like the Tubb. The Badger pivots on a crosspin, which this one doesn't.... right?

 

[JimT]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Randy's method of putting on the bolt handles is quick and simple. He did one while we were chatting in his shop. It's not as sexy as George's CNC mill, but it works well with Randy's Bridgeport.

I am going to use Randy's method, as I am CNC-less also. It will work well in my shop.

As I am learning, there are many ways to do the same task in the machining world. As long as the finished product is in spec and the customer is happy, then I think you are good to go.

Randy is a wealth of info, and a great guy. He turns out a great product. I have one of George's rifles, which has spoiled me for life. George is a good guy too.

Lots of good folks here, and some great smiths.

 

[nutzo396]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

As long as you're not feeding it really hard you really are not putting any more stress on your mill. For your money, carbide will outlast any high speed endmill you can get.

 

[JJones75]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wi50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question and without stepping on anyone's toes, but why would one go through all the damn work of fixing the rem handle? They aren't quite timed or located right to begin with in many cases.

By the time one fixes them, does this mod or that mod, gets it fastened to the bolt body it just seams easier to get a new handle and tig weld it on. I've done it and it's a snap. A little pissing around on the location and timeing but for those who do it on a regular basis it's much easier. Unless you have the machine and fixtrue that GAP has, it's (in my opinion) cheapier and easier to just take and have a new handle put on a bolt. And it functions and extracts way better than the original. </div></div>

I agree , this is the method I rather use these days , TIG one of these on and your done , break it or rip it off you will have ruined the bolt

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: New Project rifle, for school

Ya I've thought about using new handles that are machined from solid pieces of steel. But welding on the bolt body just isn't something I wanted to add to the process. It would make each job more expensive, plus not everyone has a tig welder.
A solid machined handle like that is nice though