• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Night Vision Night Vision or Thermal? The real questions answered

Victor-TNVC

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Aug 5, 2007
    1,982
    558
    USA
    www.tnvc.com
    Currently I see many "trends" with thermal and more hitting the market for lower pricing. Fancy videos downrange with thermal hunters and dealers debating technically this and that which thermal can do best for their hog hunting a .5x vs. 1x vs. this resolution vs. this FOV is all great for hunting bragging rights and placing feathers in their hats of who is the most internet forum saavy on these devices. I sit and watch all the debate and vids with lot's of hog meat piling up which is great for those activities.

    While most know TNVC's core is still LE and Mil education/training, but it still stands true for the hunting crowd as well. The simple answer to this debate of NV vs. thermal? Identification is still KING and always will be.

    In the hunting world, shooting a small calf instead of that thermal viewed hog would be hard on ones wallet. In the human world without ID (like the most recent hunting accident in the news, it was pure tragedy). Range and performance of both NV and thermal technologies will also play an important role down range on what you detect and ID. This is also a very critical component.

    For the LE person, ID is always king especially in a shoot/no shoot scenario. Things can get collectively very busy on a perimeter dark house watching your team make entry and people start to come out the back of the house. Once again ID is king and a white light fight may be in order but your environment and safety will dictate that. What if that fight on the back of the house stays dark? Once again, having true ID has to be the #1 priority and every thermal device under 25K out there available I've worked with for LE folks will not suffice for this critical ID of shoot/no shoot for human targets. If it ain't good for true ID'ing a calf or a hog at 75 yards or even questionable, almost good enough ID, it's NEVER good enough. Some folks may say, "well Vic the guys running out the back I observed with my Vanadium Oxide, Uncooled Microbolometer, 640 x 480, .17 micron, 1 million hertz clip on thermal was not in any armor, vest, helmet etc. and was running with a gun." What the good guy shooter did NOT TRULY SEE in his internet lore 1 million hertz thermal was that undercover DEA agent with long hair, badge exposed, under armor and that large glint POLICE placard on his jacket. Understand, it's what you the shooter cannot see is the devil in disguise.

    Training is obviously HUGE in all scenarios. Working with both NV and thermal and understanding what you can and cannot truly see is also paramount at different ranges and environments. This goes true for hunters as well. Ask yourself, when you first got your new NV or thermal device. Did you all look at many different critters through that device at different ranges and environments to see what you can REALLY see before you went on an actual hunt and pressed the trigger? Did you REALLY do this? (Please ask yourself this).

    For the LE folks again and also the home defender, ID obviously is also just as critically important in the court room when Mr. defense attorney wants to know what did his client look like and posts pictures he took of his client through his own crude thermal or NV device. Believe me I've seen all the tactics they use as well. I've been on that exact hot seat when they've asked me, "can you ID my client in these pictures"? I then see 5 or 6 pictures of different peoples faces on an overhead projector obviously taken with a crude thermal device. This actual scenario from a search, seizure drug buy arrest of a perp witnessed on a surveillance detail and apprehended hiding in a open field with lots of brush. Both NV and thermal were used in the apprehension.

    In closing, while I see the trend of thermal devices gaining more momentum with lesser pricing with a bit more resolution for hunting bragging rights. ID is still king out there when you're about to press the trigger whether he/she is LE or hunter. Most all of us heard about the recent night hunting accident based on some sort of "illuminator" used. I will not Monday night QB that incident because I do not know all the facts of the whole incident. One thing is unfortunately true... TRUE identification of the target was not obtained and a tragedy occurred.

    Stay safe out there!

    Vic Di Cosola
     
    Last edited:
    How true, we have taken a few people out with us that never got an invite to return, safety is absolute first and foremost night hunting in the woods.

    DETECT -> POSITIVE ID -> TARGET, it really is straightforward simple.

    NO POSITIVE ID = NO TARGET or lots and lots of trouble and a good cry.

    Be safe out there so you can come home and share the good times with your friends and family.
     
    will be working on some video that will demonstrate the difficulties in making positive ID with thermal and even with gen 3 NV, many times viewing through a 8-10 degree device something catches your eye on the left side of the pasture and when you scan back to the right after a few minutes you have a heat source or eyes lite up in the IR round head 24" off the ground, pointy ears looking like a bobcat or coyote and it turns out to be a large Owl.

    I have called in ranch hands during the day and followed movement in the brush only to have a human emerge on the other side.

    Positive ID is required before you go hot as in safety off finger on trigger
     
    Im not going to lie, it makes a man feel a little naked not having thermal AND I2!
     
    Calf vs. pig mixup would have to take a special Ed shooter. If you have any expirience at all in the field you can use thermal and identify just about any creature out there pretty quick. I'm with ya on the I2 part but thermal does the job.

    Even with a raggedy ass ps-24 I can tell a coyote from a fawn white tail at a pretty fair distance by the way it walks and runs. Hogs can't raise their head up to look around like a cow because they basically have no neck! A operator with common sense can identify animals with no problem. I'm not talking about human identification. I'm pretty sure most of us on here don't kill enough people to need to identify anyone with thermal for our bragging rights. If someone can't tell a human from a hog in thermal hopefully they don't own any guns...... As for incidents/accidents at night I believe in IR beacons when using I2. Safety should always be #1!
     
    watched a what I thought was a hog in a wallow for several minutes with two thermals 32-64 short snout, no neck, pointy ears, went to d760 on the gun and still thought hog till it turned it head and I saw the tag in the ear was a large bull 2/3 in the water. it can happen even to someone with hundred of hours behind thermal.
     
    so the moral to a guy that's interested in stepping into the NV or Therm - easier ID with NV or Therm?

    sure it is usually easier to spot / pickup the bright color as the heat source, which is the potential target, but positively IDing it once located is better with NV?
     
    IMHO thermal is for locating, primarly and NV is for positive target ID. As far as the hunting tragedy that Vic mentioned, to use the brightness of the eyes as an identifier is just so wrong. Poorly planned night OP.
     
    IMHO thermal is for locating, primarly and NV is for positive target ID. As far as the hunting tragedy that Vic mentioned, to use the brightness of the eyes as an identifier is just so wrong. Poorly planned night OP.

    And I don't think they were using night vision but rather ND3 type lights from what I gathered reading the articles. However, but, therefore, I am a proponent of using strobes with NV. With thermal, just ask yourself, should I really be pointing my weapons mounted thermal at this guy while I am out hunting in a field in Texas?
     
    watched a what I thought was a hog in a wallow for several minutes with two thermals 32-64 short snout, no neck, pointy ears, went to d760 on the gun and still thought hog till it turned it head and I saw the tag in the ear was a large bull 2/3 in the water. it can happen even to someone with hundred of hours behind thermal.

    How do you know it wasn't a steer? ;)
     
    While I agree with the OP's Identification aspect 100%, there's always a but .
    Most hunting accidents happen in the daytime, so you can't blame the scope being used for what the human does with it.
    If I can't identify the target, I don't shoot. Same as when I'm hunting in the daytime.
    Having hunted with thermal long before thermal was in, I can say that I can identify the animal targets I'm hunting without the need of NV.
    Not just by the shape, but also by it's movements and mannerisms. Even female animals move differently than their male counterparts.
    Usually my shots are under 100yds, and target ID is very easy at that range with any decent thermal optic.
    I started with NV and still have a rig setup with a digital scope and monocular, but thermal is my first choice always.
    I didn't hear of the hunting accident, so I'll have to use the Google to get the specifics.
    I know I can tell the difference between a human and an animal with a thermal optic at almost any shooting distance, not so with NV.
     
    I don't know how many fawns and deer sleeping on the ground that I have stalked with thermal thinking they were hogs or coyote, but it has been dozens.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
     
    My experience. Thermal imaging requires lots of time learning how to interpret the data I.e. The image . . . . to get good at accurate interpretations.

    Thermal has found heist sources that looked like hogs at 200 yards in high gras . . . Only to be ID'd as deer by the D740.

    You must have a positive ID before you put your finger on the trigger. True for the LE warfighter and the Hunter.
     
    IMHO thermal is for locating, primarly and NV is for positive target ID. As far as the hunting tragedy that Vic mentioned, to use the brightness of the eyes as an identifier is just so wrong. Poorly planned night OP.

    Guess we agree on the something else for only the 2nd time. :D
     
    Calf vs. pig mixup would have to take a special Ed shooter. If you have any expirience at all in the field you can use thermal and identify just about any creature out there pretty quick. I'm with ya on the I2 part but thermal does the job.

    Even with a raggedy ass ps-24 I can tell a coyote from a fawn white tail at a pretty fair distance by the way it walks and runs. Hogs can't raise their head up to look around like a cow because they basically have no neck! A operator with common sense can identify animals with no problem. I'm not talking about human identification. I'm pretty sure most of us on here don't kill enough people to need to identify anyone with thermal for our bragging rights. If someone can't tell a human from a hog in thermal hopefully they don't own any guns...... As for incidents/accidents at night I believe in IR beacons when using I2. Safety should always be #1!

    I had to laugh at the Special Ed comment. LoL. I would have to disagree somewhat in my experience on some hunts. A few years back, I was at Wild River Ranch looking down a 25 yard wide path crossing. At approx. 100 yards I see a HUGE what appeared to be a cow, but maybe a hog slowly walking across this opening. I am using a clip-on thermal along with Guy Blocker also with a T-60 right next to me. I was kneeling with Chris Lucci also on my left where I kept whispering, ID Chris, ID as Chris had the famed HILGA out looking through a D-760. He finally said "take em" but the ass end out of that huge hog disappeared into the heavy brush.

    My point is plainly a reminder to many LE folks who also read these forums that ID is still king even with all these thermal sights hitting the market at lowers costs. All these threads about hunting hogs can and do give some a false expectation of these devices for true ID aspects. Unfortunately these lower priced thermal pieces still do not give the personal identification (PID) as does standard Gen 3 devices do for this line of work. It's funny but I will be out tomorrow night with a local agency for some training with a CNVD-LR and CNVD-T3 and they will see some crucial identifiers or lack thereof with thermal vs. LR. Now with that said the newest A-Duns Hybrid along with their new cooled array HISS system released can give this PID at loooong ranges, but your talking 30-50K+ for these systems which is priced way above 95% of the Dept's budgets out there. Hope this helps. :)
     


    one of two, of last night coyotes, located with FLIR LS64 all looked good for the shot had them pretty much I'd as coyotes in thermal by their mannerisms, got on the D760 and found I had a wall of brush between us had to squeak them in to in front of the brush for the shot, missed a third trying to thread the shot between branches. had I been suing thermal only may have taken the shot earlier and miss.

    just a note thermal is not the end all
     
    Thermal really stands out in LE/ Fire/Medic Search and Rescue!

    FLIR%20Man%20Drowning.jpg
     
    Good thread.

    I'm coming from the perspective of someone that has been guiding professionally using thermal and NV for 10 years now. I have hunted and trained with some very experienced military, LE and hunting personnel, and its my opinion you that if you have never hesitated to ID after seeing a heat signature on thermal, then you are incredibly lucky never to have shot a calf, or worse. The "average" hunter or shooter, using today's most widely available thermal technology SHOULD hesitate and ID positively with I2 whenever there is the slightest doubt.

    WRR surpassed its 2000th hog this year. I knock on wood as I say this but we nave never killed one of our cows or calves, while night hunting. If you watch the video on wildriverranch.net, you will see that often, pigs actually "hide" amongst the cows, knowing full well they provide cover from detection. Don't believe me? Go see for yourself. Come hunt with us and you will experience first, hand, having to snipe a hog out from a small group of cows. Thermal makes them all run together and you simply can't trust it 100% in those situations.

    I can also recount times, when we were on the 4th hour of a hunt, had not shot a pig, and I saw a heat signature that immediately made me think of a hog. The animal was moving and pacing, like a hog, it was darting in and out of cover like a hog, and I WANTED so badly for it to be a hog. We had maybe 3 or 4 minutes to size it up but it kept sneaking back into the mesquite thicket. The hunter (not Vic) said "its got to be a hog, Chris, I can see its black, and its right at the edge of the brush." I said "wait, I can't positively ID yet." I heard the safety disengaged. At that moment, I put IR light on it and said "no shoot, its a calf..." He had his finger on the trigger and said "shit, I was waiting and I thought for sure....." "Engage the safety....we don't want to make that mistake, and you just learned something really important." We talked about what was a close call, but we never lost the last safety in the chain, and that was a 100% PID.

    Imagine another scenario: We are walking down a caliche road, totally blacked out, expecting hogs to be hundreds of yards ahead, at our known ambush points. I always remind hunters "they could pop out anywhere between here and there, so stay alert, and don't get out of the formation" (which is designed for safety in case we do have to take a snap shot). Lo and behold there appeasrs a huge black shape, only 50 yards, out. We're walking, and it jumps out on to the road. Hogs are shifty, flighty bastards and this one, breaks the cover, realizes something is badly wrong, and suddenly picks up his pace, finally disappearing into the brush on the other side. Sometimes, we have 1-2 seconds to see, and then PID the target. Thermal tells you its there, but it doesn't always tell you its a pig or a calf or even a deer. If that animal is walking straight away with its head down, you won't see the neck!

    The more time I spend walking around in total black out, the more I recognize just how many scenarios there are where you could become slightly disoriented and misjudge with thermal. What you are doing with the added step of using I^2 is giving yourself one last chance not to really fuck something up. I think that's well worth the slight delay, and so what if we lose hog every once in a while?

    Vic has a great point.

    I built HELGA and use it on every single hunt; it may look a little silly, but its what gets us results. I think I need to have both thermal and I^2 because I owe it to my neighbors not to kill their livestock, and its good business to be recognized as being safe / dependable when dealing with borrowed, leased or co-op land.


    FLIR M24, 640 X 480, NEPVS14, with 3X magnifier, and Torch Pro, which I can focus with the fingers of my left hand while viewing.

     
    Last edited:


    Chirs do hogs really run with cattle?

    use to run a large caller on the dog till I shot this coyote with a thick main in July, now run a Kevlar hog vest for better ID
    <a href="http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/theimpactzone/media/impact%20predator%20and%20hog%20control/gunner2144x81_zpsa6f5393b.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t520/theimpactzone/impact%20predator%20and%20hog%20control/th_gunner2144x81_zpsa6f5393b.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo gunner2144x81_zpsa6f5393b.jpg" style=""></a>

    Gunner owner Tony Tebbe NM with vest one
     
    Last edited:


    Chirs do hogs really run with cattle?

    use to run a large caller on the dog till I shot this coyote with a thick main in July, now run a Kevlar hog vest for better ID
    <a href="http://s1063.photobucket.com/user/theimpactzone/media/impact%20predator%20and%20hog%20control/gunner2144x81_zpsa6f5393b.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t520/theimpactzone/impact%20predator%20and%20hog%20control/th_gunner2144x81_zpsa6f5393b.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo gunner2144x81_zpsa6f5393b.jpg" style=""></a>

    Gunner owner Tony Tebbe NM with vest one


    Great example, Phil. To those of you that say thermal is just fine for ID, maybe you have not actually hunted hogs in that scenario. If you had, I think you would see that waiting on PID from the guys with I^2, using your own I^2 device to do so, or shooting with I^2 is preferable to shooting a calf or a cow laying down. This is why we always have and use both, and why I don't expect clients to shoot using thermal.
     
    This is a good educational thread and so true how hard it is to have identification with thermal. Thermal is even more trouble in the summer desert areas when the sun goes down and everything is still blazing hot. I wish I could travel out to punch holes in hogs. You guys have some fun.
     
    I agree with Vic that you can ID better with I^2 but I took and see this whole thread different I guess. Maybe I'm wrong... Hopefully I am!

    This is how I see it.

    Flir has a new series of thermal that everyone is excited about along with several others. Not to mention the prices aren't way out of hand for them, they are actually affordable. TNVC feels "out of the spot light" so to speak because they didnt wow the crowd like the thermal stuff at shot. So Vic says they are no good In a way and says the thermal is a "trend" and they are just for feathers in hats.... I don't know anyone that's ever mowed down a herd of cows. If you just walk around without thermal half the time you won't have to ID anything because you will walk right by it and never see it to get the chance. Thermal is great! High res thermal is even better.
     
    I agree with Vic that you can ID better with I^2 but I took and see this whole thread different I guess. Maybe I'm wrong... Hopefully I am!

    This is how I see it.

    Flir has a new series of thermal that everyone is excited about along with several others. Not to mention the prices aren't way out of hand for them, they are actually affordable. TNVC feels "out of the spot light" so to speak because they didnt wow the crowd like the thermal stuff at shot. So Vic says they are no good In a way and says the thermal is a "trend" and they are just for feathers in hats.... I don't know anyone that's ever mowed down a herd of cows. If you just walk around without thermal half the time you won't have to ID anything because you will walk right by it and never see it to get the chance. Thermal is great! High res thermal is even better.

    LOL, nothing could be further from the truth....hahaaaaaa
     
    Surgeon_shooter, I was at shot show and FLIR was across the isle from TNVC and have a pretty long standing working relationship from what I understand and Vic being a FLIR distributer what ever is good for FLIR is good for Vic.

    Vic's, OP was more of a PSA (Public Service Announcement) after several negligent shootings at night (none with NV or thermal) but just the same and with the amount of low cost low performance thermal and NV gear on the market from Wallmart to Bass Pro and any knuckle head with the money can buy a unit not knowing the limitations and be the next YouTube sensation killing hogs or anything else that moves, buy a thermal and NV and your a hog hunting guide! soon it will be as bad as the gunshow gunsmith slapping AR parts kits together and calling it custom

    .

    Vic and TNVC have always been a source of information and education first then a source of product. I see the OP as a chance to educate people looking at making the jump to thermal or I2
     
    I agree with Vic that you can ID better with I^2 but I took and see this whole thread different I guess. Maybe I'm wrong... Hopefully I am!

    This is how I see it.

    Flir has a new series of thermal that everyone is excited about along with several others. Not to mention the prices aren't way out of hand for them, they are actually affordable. TNVC feels "out of the spot light" so to speak because they didnt wow the crowd like the thermal stuff at shot. So Vic says they are no good In a way and says the thermal is a "trend" and they are just for feathers in hats.... I don't know anyone that's ever mowed down a herd of cows. If you just walk around without thermal half the time you won't have to ID anything because you will walk right by it and never see it to get the chance. Thermal is great! High res thermal is even better.

    Not sure I am getting any of this? Not being a smart ass here, not sure what this means? What does wow the crowd mean? We were one of just a few showing off the RS series. We were the very first to actually get the first proto RS unit with an ARMS mount. (Mark Larue must of hated our initial pics Clasky took, we now have to re-shoot). We were the first to have pricing, specs etc. we only were allowed to release on that Monday before the show. We also were the first folks to show the new dual use N-Vision thermal clip-on/dedicated scope! We were all wowed about these units and that I could get 8x out of our S&B scope with virtually no pixelation! This system may be the game changer in which many others follow!

    I specifically wrote this for the LE person FIRST (non hunting) in active shooter engagements, and no one else as I stated many LE folks visit this site. Many of these Dept's only have budget for only ONE device at times and we listen very carefully to what exactly they need for their tasks at hand. Thermal is great for the LE doing search and rescue, and for others just searching for suspects in fields. In fact thermal is paramount for those rural LEO's who have to search in the middle of the night for a suspect that just bailed into a dark field and thermal can be a paramount officer safety tool for these mission environments. (Maybe I could have said this in the original text but once again, I wrote this for the active LE shooter first and foremost).

    Hope this clarifies what is really being discussed here.

    Vic
     
    Last edited:
    I agree with Vic that you can ID better with I^2 but I took and see this whole thread different I guess. Maybe I'm wrong... Hopefully I am!

    This is how I see it.

    Flir has a new series of thermal that everyone is excited about along with several others. Not to mention the prices aren't way out of hand for them, they are actually affordable. TNVC feels "out of the spot light" so to speak because they didnt wow the crowd like the thermal stuff at shot. So Vic says they are no good In a way and says the thermal is a "trend" and they are just for feathers in hats.... I don't know anyone that's ever mowed down a herd of cows. If you just walk around without thermal half the time you won't have to ID anything because you will walk right by it and never see it to get the chance. Thermal is great! High res thermal is even better.


    If its possible to shoot a cow, unwittingly (you will just have to trust me that it is), then its also possible to accidentally shoot a person, either not knowing it was a person, or the wrong person, using thermal only. Granted, the guys (and you might be one of them) that have hundreds of hours behind thermal, usually do know, with 95% accuracy what they are seeing, but sooooo many more thermal users don't have that experience, whether its because of training budget limitations, or older series issued units.

    Thermal is great. It increased our harvest on feral hogs by 100%, and I find it indispensable. However, this is also why we started the idea of doing "hunting and outdoor tactics training," at WRR. We are about to finalize our night time scrambler course, with thermal shoot and no-shoot targets, so we can show hunters (most of whom also happen to be LE and /or active or ex mil) just how thermal works and when its not the right tool for the job.

    I've known Vic and the FLIR crew for years, and even when we hunted together, we all saw, and agreed that having both was better than having just thermal alone. It might change when we see the next generation of cores and screens to the point that you can see equal detail, but until then, its probably best to train the average shooter to use both, and PID.
     
    One other note, for the guys reading this as an educational thread:

    One reason I choose to shoot with I^2 ( I use dedicated 4X magnified scopes), is that I like to place a bullet precisely in a hog. I look for anatomic lines, details and creases or folds, which show me where the diaphragm divides the thorax, or where the brainstem is . You don't see these with most thermal devices in common use, at ranges beyond 50 yards, or so, at least not to the extent you can with magnified I^2 devices.

    If you can't see anatomic features, then you probably can't see clothing or facial details, on people, either. Sure, with more and more resolution coming, we are going to see more detail, and with the inevitable fusion devices, this might become moot. That said, I have looked through enough fusion technology know to know that with overlaid images, this will involve even more training, not less.
     
    Totally agree in every aspect of what Vic,Skypup,HTR707 are explaining.
    A few things that really have challenged me out here in the wide open sage brush west,is the perception of an object(unknown distance) of a target.When its completely black,judgement of range to the human eye is nonexistent.(Duh)
    The signature is out there,now is it a rabbit at 50 yards or a small deer at 200?
    Being places I have hunted in the day,are a whole other animal when the lights go out.
    Huge learning curve for me with my LS64 and getting the "feel" for critter movement and size.
    Once something is made aware with my 64,one look through my clip on NV and its an instant range estimation with the scope and positive ID.No brainer in my book.
    One other thing I will add, that also has become more apparent is the value of a 2 man team and literally doing a "mock" stand during the day.At our current ability there is only ONE shooter allowed.Rolling solo is a challenge to say the least..Thermal for location,NV for elimination.
     
    I mean wow the crowd as in have one of the most wanted new products at shot that has your name on it.

    Last year we had the WASP. Ahhhh how excited we all were! If you google TNVC all kinds of stuff pops up about the wasp. That thing was huge and you were the talk of the town. This year maybe your not the hot thing and it made you feel left out. Seems like you saw all the thermal stuff going good so you took a swing at it to make it seem not so good. I don't know maybe not its just how I took it as soon as I read it. I have spent a pile of money with you Vic and I don't mean any disrespect by anything I said. But that's just what I saw.

    On a 2nd note, I know PID is better with I^2. I have anvis 9's,pvs-14 and pvs-22 and I've been behind all of them a good bit. The thing is this. Mistaking a cow for a hog is one thing. Actually firing and killing the cow is another. If you are not 110% sure what you are shooting then don't shoot! Never! If there is any doubt the the rifle should never be taken off of safety.

    Common sense helps a lot with thermal. Ground checking heat signatures is a terrible idea! Lol
     
    Just not part of the WOW crowd. Never felt left out, but thanks for asking or thinking that, but that's not me why I think a few above who know me and/or met me laughed a bit at your opinion. It's not about ME or being the hot thing, my wife don't think that either! LoL

    The thermal thing IS going good which we are just a part of like anyone else, THUS what had got me thinking for awhile now that some or our LE gents may get the wrong sense of security in their specific environments...But I just said that earlier.

    Thank you for your business and support. We will keep plugging away.

    Vic
     
    Long time listener ... first time caller.

    I've been reading these posts for months and months, learning and trying to figure out what I need to save my money for. Thanks to you guys, I've learned Thermal is for detection and NV is for identification. So .. last month my LS64 Thermal came to the house as part of my first piece of equipment. I've also learned that some of you guys don't get along or agree on things.

    I am the LE Officer you guys and Vic keep talking about trying to educate. There are not many of us on this website but for those of us that care enough to try and learn please keep up the posts. As a LE for 28 years (I'm at the end of my tour), it would have been nice to have this information and equipment back in the 80's when I started. We are almost a 300 person department and have approximately two sets of thermal and NV. Sad.

    I would love someone to start another thread on NV clip on stuff. More up to date information. After the LS64 my pocket book is telling me Gen 2+ clip on. I'd appreciate any information you guys can give me. I'm probably 8 weeks away from taking the NV plunge.
     
    Shurt, good to see your type. My entire technical staff is made up from LE/Mil community and many still hold a badge.

    We understand all too well about budgets and what departments can and cannot get with the bean counters priority lists, sad indeed.

    Be glad to go over several devices you may seek. Give me an email victor at tnvc dot com or PM here. Be happy to get you my other contact info. Thanks Brother.

    Vic
     
    Last edited: