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PH M85

molonlave

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Jun 2, 2009
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From Parker Hale records:
This Parker Hale M85 was completed on the 27th April 1987, and built by Eddie Taff Chief Engineer.
It fired a 14.5mm group @100 yards with 10 rounds.
No scope was ordered or fitted with this order.

It was built into a GREEN NATO stock and sold to the German Army under contract 10682 with 4 other M85 rifles.......232F/259F/281F/275F all were supplied without scopes fitted.
 
Very nice, and I never seen one with that stock. Is that privately owned now or in a museum?
 
For your viewing pleasureView attachment 7108434

From Parker Hale records:
This Parker Hale M85 was completed on the 27th April 1987, and built by Eddie Taff Chief Engineer.
It fired a 14.5mm group @100 yards with 10 rounds.
No scope was ordered or fitted with this order.

It was built into a GREEN NATO stock and sold to the German Army under contract 10682 with 4 other M85 rifles.......232F/259F/281F/275F all were supplied without scopes fitted.
That’s pretty cool you found the contract. The only units I could find who openly used them were the Malaysian Paskal and the Brazilian Marines. There are “hints” but no proof that several special ops units, I.e. SAS and GSG9 but nothing I’ve seen in the way of pics or contracts. How did you find the contract? Provenance with the rifle?

Added: https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=1019

Note that the stock pretty much looks the same. ChrisF’s pics looked like it but had camo painted on.
 
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For your viewing pleasureView attachment 7108434

From Parker Hale records:
This Parker Hale M85 was completed on the 27th April 1987, and built by Eddie Taff Chief Engineer.
It fired a 14.5mm group @100 yards with 10 rounds.
No scope was ordered or fitted with this order.

It was built into a GREEN NATO stock and sold to the German Army under contract 10682 with 4 other M85 rifles.......232F/259F/281F/275F all were supplied without scopes fitted.
Wow I would love to have one of these
 
For your viewing pleasureView attachment 7108434

From Parker Hale records:
This Parker Hale M85 was completed on the 27th April 1987, and built by Eddie Taff Chief Engineer.
It fired a 14.5mm group @100 yards with 10 rounds.
No scope was ordered or fitted with this order.

It was built into a GREEN NATO stock and sold to the German Army under contract 10682 with 4 other M85 rifles.......232F/259F/281F/275F all were supplied without scopes fitted.
I had to note the group size as being exceptional! Of the several Mauser "precision" rifles I've had made, this is right up there with them. They may not be record setters, or even contenders for that, but they are very capable of half moa when built to do so. These were built to do so, as well as be very ergonomic in the field. IMO, one of the best sniper rifles of all time.
 
There is a great thread on milsurps.com that delves into the AI vs. PH M85 trials. Definitely worth a read.

 
There is a great thread on milsurps.com that delves into the AI vs. PH M85 trials. Definitely worth a read.

I saw the post last week but was on my phone. So, it was hard to read. I finally remembered to go back and look at it when I got on the home computer.
 
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Kahles ZF84 and ZF95 in both 6x42 and 10x42, but most british M85s have been seen with S&B PM1 6x42. Rings where Parker hale 1 piece and 2 piece.
 
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What rings and scope mount was used on the M85?
Neat rifle!
It was it's own deal. Like the M87/C3A1 it has a contour all it's own and it's a one piece.

As far as the Schmidt & Bender, if it was, it was the 6 X42 in all probability. The rifle has been "on the way out" for a while and I doubt they would upgrade the scopes when they are wanting a new rifle.

I finally went back and read that whole thread. Would love to talk to some of the guys on that thread. Interesting in the trials how stuff got full of dirt, wore out. Scope rings leaving divots? (did they tighten them??)
There is a great thread on milsurps.com that delves into the AI vs. PH M85 trials. Definitely worth a read.

 
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One of the hardest pieces to find is the rear sight: Added- PH-5B?
1598196878472.png


It actually looks pretty simple to make. You just have to have the right increments in the threads and markings for the elevation. No windage on this sight as I recall.

Added II- The website where I found this:
 
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I wonder if you could make one from a Lee Enfield sight or something similar.
I think you could just make one. Of course, it takes skills ...and maybe a machine or two.

On the Lee Enfields, the elevation screw is on one side. On the M85 it's centered. You could still make one work maybe if you could offset the front sight, just that little amount.
 
Good luck finding the appropriate S&B scope for the M85, I think that's a tough one here in the USA...but hopefully you'll get lucky and find one.

I'd love to see what the final deciding factors were in the choice.
There is a great thread on milsurps.com that delves into the AI vs. PH M85 trials. Definitely worth a read.

Speaking of which, if anybody really wants to read a reference book on the PH 85 vs AI PM military trials, or is interested in any aspect of the UK's military sniping history, I recommend Steve Houghton's excellent book, The British Sniper: A Century of Evolution (a few more are available directly form him in the UK. My copy from this summer is #1627 of 2000 that were printed). Here's page 206 from this book, which noted that both rifles were accurate enough, but the AI won due "to its usability by the sniper in the field and the logistical elements that would have to support it keeping it front line and serviceable." Houghton states:

"The Accuracy International approach had the M85 beat by firstly building a chassis based rifle, groundbreaking at the time in comparison to the M85 which was a continuation of nineteenth century technology.The provision of four very basic tools as part of the L96 kit fit its collection of bolt-on parts; no specialist skill was needed to change defective parts which meant if the unit armorer was not available the sniper could do it himself. Reducing the weapon to five major components, chassis, barrel, receiver, trigger and scope made for an unprecedented level of versatility. The knock-on effect was an unserviceable weapon that may have had a basic fault spent minimal time being unserviceable, reducing the need to pack a rifle up in its chest with is complete CES (Complete Equipment Schedule) and send it to a command workshop for repair by a skilled armorer as was the case with the L42A1, a practice which would have continued with the M85 had it been adopted.

Fans of the M85 will still fiercely debate today as to why the M85 should have had its place in British sniping history which in some ways it does, however the M85 did not die after the MoD trial; in fact around 800 examples were produced by Parker-Hale assembled by Eddy Taff, Parker-Hale's principal armourer, and Bill Smallwood. Limited numbers of the M85 did in fact see service with the British Army as it is confirmed the SAS purchased several as well as the Parachute Regiment, particularly the second battalion who had several in their armoury.....the vast majority of the 800 examples produced were supplied to organizations such as the UK police constabularies as the Enfield Enforcer's replacement as well as the Falkland Islands defense force and several foreign armed forces elsewhere around the world..."


Attached are 4 pics from Houghtons' excellent book. Pic #2 shows the 4 small tools included with the rifle that allow a sniper in the field to easily and relatively quickly dissemble all of its components except the barrel from the receiver. (ie, if the trigger developed an issue, it could be removed by the sniper in about a minute and swapped, etc) The M85 simply did not have that level of user serviceability - and thus logistically it lost the competition to the much more innovative AI chassis-based system. Last picture shows an interesting factoid re the AI PM/L96 system - if the side panels are damaged or otherwise destroyed in combat or a parachute drop, the rifle can still be operated and will be accurate, assuming the sniper can figure out the sub optimal grip/ergonomic issues. Again, the M85 was/is a much more traditional system and didn't have this level of serviceability/survivability.

The last attachment is an except from page 187 of Houghtons' book, which notes that British Special Forces (SBS and SAS) were unhappy with the old L42A1, and used their own funds to buy the new AI Precision Marksman (PM) rifle back in 1984/85. At that time it was not yet officially adopted as the L96 rifle, but given that the SAS apparently replaced all or most of their L42s with 32 of the new AI PM rifles in 1985, all suggests that they really did prefer that new chassis-based system.

Bottomline: I like the historical M85 and wished I owned one too, however, the historical record is pretty clear about why the British adopted the AI rifle over the P-H M85: Superior logistical support and field serviceability by the sniper, and thus the L96 did not require shipping the complete rifle back to a specialist armorer for repairs (which was considered a logical problem with the old L42A1 at the time, and as Broughton notes, that constraint would have continued with the M85, had it been adopted). Today, its hard to underestimate how truly innovative the AI chassis system was when it formerly evaluated 35 years ago...my 2cts.
 

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I gotta say one reason I do like the AI is it had room to grow, where the M85 does not. Sure it can take a 30-06 sized cartridge, but not with a long, heavy for caliber bullet and still fit it into a magazine.

The modularity of the AI was what sold it, even if it wasn't ready to be supported when it was adopted. Support can come if the plans are there. At the time of adoption, there was no serious conflict that the UK was in, so really a good time to move in that direction.
 
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I have read that several scopes have been seen on these
Kahles ZF84
Swarovski ZFM 84 6x42
S&B 6x42 (same as L96a1 scope only in black)
Pecar 4-10x45

I'll try to get some reticle pictures through the Kahles and S&B when I return in a few weeks.
 
Always loved the PH rifles. I sold someone here an M87 in great shape and all my M85 parts and recievers. I think I have a one piece mount and a new ejector box if anyone needs them.
 
That sounds great, in both responses.. !

I had somehow the impression that in this case there "must" be still some guys left which know the answer.. Intuition, something a good resource..

Thank you. Yes please. Now I am excited :) Especially because of the first 3 scope-types...

PM85_vs_AI_pg207.jpg
 
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The M85s were apparently often sold without optics, with the end customer supplying them. Some of the ZF84 and ZF95 Kalhes scopes I have seen used the 104 reticle shown below.

IMG_0564.jpeg

…one day I hope to use my spare ZF95 on either an SSG-69, or preferably an Parker-Hale-ish M85. It has a Mil-Dot reticle, which seems a little unusual for these scopes. (Note the typo “MILL” DOT).
IMG_3293.jpeg


I found a neat original M85 stock, but unfortunately it was never milled for the action and its going to be hard to find someone who can properly mill it….

IMG_1940.jpeg


IMG_1941.jpeg

….yep, I’m in way over my head w/ this project.
 
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I had somehow the impression that in this case there "must" be still some guys left which know the answer.. Intuition, something a good resource..
I should note that the 6x S&B L13A1 scope seen on that M85 in your post likely has the below reticle (thin horizontal line with thick post on the bottom). Again, this is what the British used, but M85s purchased by Brazil, Malaysia or Germany might have used different scopes & reticles.

IMG_3294.jpeg
 
Here's what I found regarding the reticle.
According to Kahles:
"The reticle is the reticle 111 which was made solely for the US Army and for snipers. Zero in at 500 yards, one click equals ¼ MOA (minute of angle).
The distance between the stadia lines are 19 inches at that particular distance which correspond more or less the width of a man’s shoulders.
The horizontal tic marks on the center crosswires are equivalent to 6 inches wide at that particular distance.

• The BDC is made for .308 168gr 10,9g”

Apparently, this reticle is considered a rare offering. I have no idea which reticle would have been issued with the M85. I presume it was whatever suited the individual or unit.
 
Truly (y)-info, molonlave !

I realize clearly now I have been asking this questions at the wrong place resp. the wrong people before... .

I knew since many years that Kahles made truly independent and interesting Sniperscopes. And the same goes for Pecar and Schmidt-und Bender. The history of the Parker-Hale M82/M85 and Enfield Enforcer/-Enfield Envoy-Rifles proves it.

More later. Have all a good afternoon !

BR
 
Apparently, this reticle is considered a rare offering. I have no idea which reticle would have been issued with the M85. I presume it was whatever suited the individual or unit.
Back in the mid-1980s Leupold learned that the US Army was looking for a replacement sniper rifle (to replace the old M21 and it's antiquated ART II scope). This lead them to develop three new tactical scopes with the then brand-new 30mm tube diameter. The M1 Ultra, M2 Ultra, and M3 Ultra. They gave these gratis scopes to the US military in the mid-1980s and asked the military to test and provide feedback on how to improve their new tactical scopes. The odd-ball M2 Ultra had the funny range-finding reticle, and here's some more info regarding that mid-1980s reticle.
"No doubt they are rarely seen; I posted on one f/s here a year or two ago. Copyright 1986 Leupold Law Enforcement products literature indicate "friction type" 70 min wind/ 70 min elev, 3/4 min adjustment resolution. The reticle ( 41261 ) was developed for use with the 7.62 Nato National match ammo; the M2 is factory focused ( parallax ) at 500 meters. I hope this helps----joe

Leupold_10X_Ultra_M2A_reticle.jpg


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Leupold_10X_Ultra_M2A_marking.jpg


Big Army tested a bunch these gratis Leupold scopes that came in 6x, 10x, 16x and even a few 20x scopes, and by about 1987 they settled on the 10x M3 Ultra - but they requested 1/2 MOA windage clicks instead of 1" windage clicks. This resulted in the M3A Ultra, with the Mil-Dot reticle, chosen to go with the new Remington M24 rifle. The M2 Ultra with its odd-ball "V" shaped range estimation reticle was relegated to the dust bin of history by about 1987, with the Mil-Dot becoming standard for most military and LE customers.

I had no idea that Kahles made a scope in that era for with that odd-ball reticle, but perhaps they were competing with Leupold on the M24 optic contract competition? I suspect that Kahles scope on the M85 is exceptionally rare - thanks for the pics.
 
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I have owned several M85's since the late 80's. They were freely available in the UK from PARKER HALE. PH would sell them to firearms dealers for £750 at the time (The £ was $1.70 at the time)

I bought a cased version, with an S&B 12x42 PM1 scope for £1250 in 1990.

They came with whatever scope you wanted. PH would put a scope on if required, or the dealer did. There was no standard scope.

I bought one about 6 years ago, it cost £5500.00 GBP, cased with a 6x42 S&B PM1 scope in black.

Now they are selling for anything from £10k to £16k in the UK, cased and scoped. In fact, prices have rocketed.

I don't think they are now unreasonable, I just think they took their time to catch up to where they should be. They were a future classic waiting to happen, and now it has happened.

In comparison, an AI PM (Precision Marksman) (L96A1 - Police version. The military ones having been cut up) will cost anything from £25k to £75k depending on accessories, provenance and buyer at this time. £25k is more realistic, £75k is someone with the money and a must have need at the time.

An M85 is due to come up for Auction in June at Southams Auctioneers in the UK.

Lovely rifles, extremely accurate and comfortable to shoot.

So comfortable I got a McMillan McHale flat top stock (as used in the M85) and had an AI action inletted.

The original PARKER HALE bipod used on the M85 was a smaller copy of the BREN bipod. Copied later by VERSAPOD.
 
The V-reticle was "prototyped" in the cheap German ZF4 scope in ww2.
There is a pic of the reticle in Peter Senich's book "The German Sniper 1914 -1945".

I ordered spare Pecar reticles i the 80'ies that had ballistic dots like the old silhouette reticles.
The bdc dots started with the centre dot at 300m and dots for each 50m to 800m, max range for Raufoss 147gr ball. Each dot matched a Russian helmet at respective range in the ffp Pecar. Shot a lot on military ranges with pop up targets out to 7 - 800m. With target display time set to 3 - 5 seconds, on unknown ranges, nothing could touch this scope. Match dot with head, drop dot to center mass, bang.
The reticle also had side posts to ease shooting i low light.

The old Pecar 4-10x45 had a huge field of view, 4.9m@100m@10x.

I could move the reticles between the 4-10x45 and later target scopes with higher magnification.

I really miss the option of ordering your own custom reticles, get them in the mailbox after 6 weeks and install them yourself.
 
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There were at least two tests in some german Gun-Magazines "a while back". I could buy all the two. One in the VISIER and the second in a DWJ: Deutscher Waffen-Journal/German Arms-Journal, simply translated - by the system - not by me, of course :p;)

The one in the DWJ from around 1988 or so containted as test-ammo the MEN 168 grs- and also the MEN 190 grs-Match. It reached with the first a 18 mm-group for 5 shots at 100 m and 40 mm with the 2. load, as i remember. The other test-loads i cant remember now, unfortunately.
This groups were a reason for the tester to qualify the PH M85-accuracy as rather unsufficient.. . :rolleyes: That is a possibility, too.. . Oh yes.. .

Perhaps I find the whole article within a reasonable period of time.
 

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The V-reticle was "prototyped" in the cheap German ZF4 scope in ww2.
There is a pic of the reticle in Peter Senich's book "The German Sniper 1914 -1945".

I ordered spare Pecar reticles i the 80'ies that had ballistic dots like the old silhouette reticles.
The bdc dots started with the centre dot at 300m and dots for each 50m to 800m, max range for Raufoss 147gr ball. Each dot matched a Russian helmet at respective range in the ffp Pecar. Shot a lot on military ranges with pop up targets out to 7 - 800m. With target display time set to 3 - 5 seconds, on unknown ranges, nothing could touch this scope. Match dot with head, drop dot to center mass, bang.
The reticle also had side posts to ease shooting i low light.

The old Pecar 4-10x45 had a huge field of view, 4.9m@100m@10x.

I could move the reticles between the 4-10x45 and later target scopes with higher magnification.

I really miss the option of ordering your own custom reticles, get them in the mailbox after 6 weeks and install them yourself.
Truly informative, TorF.

That is remembering me the Pecar-Reticle No. 15 a, a bit.. . But that would have far to few dots, ultimately.

Which number or name had this reticle ? A pic, please :) ?
 

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