plane crash in China

[KYAggie]

I’d put my money on a mismanaged abnormal situation. They are a very rote people, when things go outside of the path of day to day chinese tend to not do well, especially in things that are not as part of their culture like flying.

This is where I would put my money as well, for the same reasons. That, or the mechanics screwed something up that led to a major problem structurally either directly due to their screw up or because the pilots mishandled their screw up. Those 737-800‘s are very reliable planes as long as you don’t get too far outside the design envelope.

You might be able to fly with a good portion of your vertical stabilizer missing, but you can’t fly without your horizontal stabilizer. No horizontal stab = a wild ride to impact. If that photo is legit, there’s definitely something wrong with the tail, both verticals and horizontal stab.

Hopefully they can get the flight recorders as I doubt the moment by moment by moment telemetry of a Chinese airliner is being monitored like ours are on the newer planes. A rudder or yaw damper malfunction could cause this if it went full rudder deflection back and forth a couple times; the vertical stab would depart the plane and they would likely loose control in a way that could over stress the horizontal stab. That would be similar to the American 587 crash except American was closer to the ground and the tail coming off was pilot induced out of ignorance and a lack of training.

 

[BoilerUP]

I believe the winglets are an option. Kind of like on the 747-400... Lots around the world with no winglets.

737 Classics certainly didn't come with winglets...but I thought all the NGs (600-900) came standard with APIs.

 

[KYAggie]

China Eastern 737-800 Crashes With 132 Onboard | Aviation Week Network

A China Eastern Airlines Boeing 737-800 123 passengers and nine crew members has crashed into the mountains near Wuzhou, southern China; the airline is reportedly grounding its fleet of 75 737-800 aircraft.

aviationweek.com

This shows a picture of their -800’s and they have winglets and a paint scheme that does not look like the plane in that blurry photo.

 

[7.62willdo]

This is where I would put my money as well, for the same reasons. That, or the mechanics screwed something up that led to a major problem structurally either directly due to their screw up or because the pilots mishandled their screw up. Those 737-800‘s are very reliable planes as long as you don’t get too far outside the design envelope.

You might be able to fly with a good portion of your vertical stabilizer missing, but you can’t fly without your horizontal stabilizer. No horizontal stab = a wild ride to impact. If that photo is legit, there’s definitely something wrong with the tail, both verticals and horizontal stab.

Hopefully they can get the flight recorders as I doubt the moment by moment by moment telemetry of a Chinese airliner is being monitored like ours are on the newer planes. A rudder or yaw damper malfunction could cause this if it went full rudder deflection back and forth a couple times; the vertical stab would depart the plane and they would likely loose control in a way that could over stress the horizontal stab. That would be similar to the American 587 crash except American was closer to the ground and the tail coming off was pilot induced out of ignorance and a lack of training.

Your wrong

 

[earthquake]

Another MCAS screw up?

 

[rjacobs]

Another MCAS screw up?

NG doesnt have "mcas"... well it sort of does, but not in the sense that the Max has MCAS...

 

[rjacobs]

737 Classics certainly didn't come with winglets...but I thought all the NGs (600-900) came standard with APIs.

Maybe. I was under the impression that they COULD be removed, but I dont know.

 

[Im2bent]

That B52 still has horizontal stab.

 

[Davo308]

Please tell me this is a joke...

 

[NoDopes]

That looks like a GTA snipit.

I read the plane regained 1000ft before plummetting again, so the stress theory may have merit. I also read one black box was recovered so far but was damaged badly.

 

[montigre]

Hard to tell but looks like its missing bits of the tail.

At the speed and angle of this descent, the plane would likely have been tearing itself apart.

 

[DocRDS]

Hard to tell but looks like its missing bits of the tail.

also wanted for questioning: the other engine....

 

[NoDopes]

I see two engines..

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I think it was snakes. Mother Fucking snakes.

Rip to the poor souls on board. At least it was quick, but must’ve been pure terror on the way in.

 

[BoilerUP]

Go to :33 and see if anything looks familiar

 

[TicTacTex]

 

[308pirate]

Even if the a/c lost all hydraulics, you still have control tabs on the flight control surfaces that would move them(mechanically) enough to provide some amount of axis control. Maybe...suicidal pilot(s)??
Mac

I seriously doubt that trim tabs have enough authority to cancel out the primary flight control that they trim when that control is near its motion limits.

 

[308pirate]

No, it wouldn’t…….

View attachment 7833206
My guess is she shed her tail feathers in the drop..

If that 52 lost enough of its HORIZONTAL stabilizer, it would lawn dart immediately.

The wing's center of lift is never in line with the axial location of the center of gravity. The downforce (or lift) of the HS is what balances everything about the pitch axis.

 

[308pirate]

yeah, we’ll per the pusher issue (not likely here) there is a reason none of those crashes occurred in North America.

The only reason the 737 Max didn't crash in NA before they were grounded worldwide is pure fucking luck.

You know less than nothing about this.

 

[308pirate]

Your wrong

About what? About a 737 being able to maintain controlled flight with significant portions of its horizontal stabilizer missing?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

The only reason the 737 Max didn't crash in NA before they were grounded worldwide is pure fucking luck.

You know less than nothing about this.

Few things led to those max crashes.

1. The Airline choose to buy models with only one aoa sensor. Boeing offered with a back up sensor but was done as a cost savings measure from a cheapo airline.

2. After the first crash boeing issued a statement about the issue and how to disable the system. Literally flip a switch.

3. Both Aircraft that crashed had low hr pilots in the MAX at the controls. Around 100 hrs.

Notably before the lion air crash, on its previous flight the same issue occurred and a pilot made the right call and disabled the system. The incident was reported to maintenance but nothing was done. It crashed the next flight because the pilots didn’t make the right call.

I personally think the grounding and all the bad press was a bit over done. More of an attack on Boeing than a serious design flaw.

 

[308pirate]

Few things led to those max crashes.

1. The Airline choose to buy models with only one aoa sensor. Boeing offered with a back up sensor but was done as a cost savings measure from a cheapo airline.

2. After the first crash boeing issued a statement about the issue and how to disable the system. Literally flip a switch.

3. Both Aircraft that crashed had low hr pilots in the MAX at the controls. Around 100 hrs.

Notably before the lion air crash, on its previous flight the same issue occurred and a pilot made the right call and disabled the system. The incident was reported to maintenance but nothing was done. It crashed the next flight because the pilots didn’t make the right call.

I personally think the grounding and all the bad press was a bit over done. More of an attack on Boeing than a serious design flaw.

I'd like some evidence, other than your own words, that #1 is a fact. And even if that is a fact, it would not have been had Boeing not lied to the FAA about the exact function of the MCAS because the FAA would not have granted an airworthiness certificate with a single point of failure in that system.

The "literally flip a switch" didn't work for Ethiopian Airlines. The first officer did exactly that. What Boeing didn't say is that you have less than 10 seconds to diagnose the problem correctly and take the (bandaid) remedial action before the plane became uncontrollable.

The saying used to be "I ain't going if it ain't a Boeing". It's now become "I ain't getting on a Boeing" or "If it's a Boeing, I ain't going".

 

[10ring'r]

I seriously doubt that trim tabs have enough authority to cancel out the primary flight control that they trim when that control is near its motion limits.

Agreed. Mil. a/c have control tabs, that are designed into the trim tabs, that work thru the pilot/co-pilot yokes. Don't know if comm. a/c have any redundancy in their design. Not knowing the attitude of the a/c, or a particular control surface, when the a/c nosed over, would determine the amount of force needed to move that particular flight control surface(elevator/rudder/ail.). Horiz. stab.'s. are operated by hydra./elec. jackscrews, so, no control tabs are involved. But, not knowing the airframe, I'm just guessing/speculating. I still say it was a suicidal pilot(s). Mac

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I'd like some evidence, other than your own words, that #1 is a fact. And even if that is a fact, it would not have been had Boeing not lied to the FAA about the exact function of the MCAS because the FAA would not have granted an airworthiness certificate with a single point of failure in that system.

The "literally flip a switch" didn't work for Ethiopian Airlines. The first officer did exactly that. What Boeing didn't say is that you have less than 10 seconds to diagnose the problem correctly and take the (bandaid) remedial action before the plane became uncontrollable.

The saying used to be "I ain't going if it ain't a Boeing". It's now become "I ain't getting on a Boeing" or "If it's a Boeing, I ain't going".

It didn’t work in Ethiopia because they were doing around 400 knots as they left the engines at full power. But when they disable the system it did disable the root problem. The high-speed created another.

I did research of this when it all happened you don’t have to take my word for it on the dual aoa but its true. I would have to go digging for it.

The FAA doesn’t regulate overseas airlines unless they fly inside the United States. Both of these crashes happened outside of FAA jurisdiction.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

It’s been a few years since I’ve looked at the data and I actually said it wrong about the AOA sensors it was a system that would let the pilots know that there was a disagreement between the two sensors. Because overseas airlines are not heavily regulated they did not purchase them. As I stated above the FAA does not regulate Ethiopia.

This is why I believe that grounding them in the US which was actually done by Trump not the FAA was a massive mistake and an attack on Boeing. As it’s cause was from the airline cheaping out, lack of regulation and low our pilots making mistakes.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[acudaowner]

It's what happens in china when they tell you to land now you do it or they shoot you down guess he did not land fast enough .

 

[308pirate]

The FAA doesn’t regulate overseas airlines unless they fly inside the United States. Both of these crashes happened outside of FAA jurisdiction.

No but they regulate the airworthiness of US made aircraft and any foreign aircraft that is to be sold here.

 

[308pirate]

It’s been a few years since I’ve looked at the data and I actually said it wrong about the AOA sensors it was a system that would let the pilots know that there was a disagreement between the two sensors. Because overseas airlines are not heavily regulated they did not purchase them. As I stated above the FAA does not regulate Ethiopia.

View attachment 7834659
This is why I believe that grounding them in the US which was actually done by Trump not the FAA was a massive mistake and an attack on Boeing. As it’s cause was from the airline cheaping out, lack of regulation and low our pilots making mistakes.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

You're not picking up what I'm putting down. The FAA would have never certified the 737 Max with an MCAS system that relied on only one AOA input if Boeing had disclosed the true nature and function of the system.

This has zero, nothing, fuck all to do with the nationality of any customer buying the aircraft.

Bottom line: Boeing lied and people died.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

You're not picking up what I'm putting down. The FAA would have never certified the 737 Max with an MCAS system that relied on only one AOA input if Boeing had disclosed the true nature and function of the system.

This has zero, nothing, fuck all to do with the nationality of any customer buying the aircraft.

Bottom line: Boeing lied and people died.

They have two on the aircraft. They had a system to warn the pilots of a disagreement between them. Cheapo airlines decided not to invest in that system.

Thats your bottom line. Not mine.

 

[eflyguy]

The aircraft in this accident was not a "max", MCAS does not even apply. The 800NG does not have it.

The 737 is the most prevalent, and reliable, commercial airliner of all time. The A320 is close behind, both over 14,000 sold. At the time of this post, there are 286 737s in-flight, the vast majority on US short-haul flights (Flightaware). The A320 is more popular outside the US.

.. and as much as we might like to hate on the country, they actually are amongst the top in terms of safety for well over a decade.

There was also no significant weather in the area at the time.

 

[RUTGERS95]

sooooooooo what do we know here, they know anything more than speculation at this time?

 

[eflyguy]

sooooooooo what do we know here, they know anything more than speculation at this time?

Correct, if they can access the data on the recovered data recorder, we might know more. Everything else is speculation at this time.

 

[Jigstick]

Pilot was probably getting toe curling head…and lost control as he “went”

 

[GreenGO Juan]

The Capitan had 6,700 hrs and the 1st officer nearly 32,000. This was an experienced crew. I don’t think it was blow job related

 

[NoDopes]

The recording material from the first black box, found on Wednesday, appeared to have survived the impact of Monday's crash in relatively good shape, a Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) official said

China examines cockpit voice recorder from crashed airliner

Chinese investigators began examining the cockpit voice recorder from a China Eastern Airlines jet that plunged into mountainside with 132 people on board as recovery crews searched muddy fields on Thursday for a second black box.

www.reuters.com

We may get some decent answers as long as China doesn't want to hide them.

 

[Im2bent]

One of my favorite shows is Air Disasters on Smithsonian channel. The shit they reveal would make most people stop flying.
Remember Air France 447 that "disappeared in the Atlantic? Read this if you dare. And this was Air France a first world airline.

Air France Flight 447 Crashed Into the Atlantic in 2009. It’s Still One of Aviation’s Greatest Mysteries

Black-box revelations from the June 2009 crash paint a surprising picture of the chaos in the cockpit that led to one of aviation’s greatest mysteries.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[eflyguy]

Commercial airliners (and many general aviation aircraft) are rarely flown by hand beyond takeoff and landing. This one was at a steady and stable cruising altitude for about an hour.

My "speculation" is a massive structural failure, which is pretty inconceivable for this aircraft in any conditions (I've been thru them!), or deliberate pilot action.

It's all a great unknown at this point.

 

[Mr.Kirk]

Bummer

 

[TurboTrout]

The only reason the 737 Max didn't crash in NA before they were grounded worldwide is pure fucking luck.

You know less than nothing about this.

No.

There is a huuuuuuuge difference in reliance with automation and working your way from shitty planes up into the big 121 stuff in America, and the zero to hero in eastern cultures.

How many aircraft with a pusher have you flown?

Shit how many with a even a AoA?

 

[308pirate]

They have two on the aircraft. They had a system to warn the pilots of a disagreement between them. Cheapo airlines decided not to invest in that system.

Thats your bottom line. Not mine.

Are you a pilot?

 

[TurboTrout]

Are you a pilot?

Yes

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Are you a pilot?

No. I have flown small single engine aircraft from the right seat, I have around 50hrs in a cockpit in the air flying with a licensed pilot. I understand flight and am around and was raised by people who are.

 

[7.62willdo]

Then shut the fuck up

 

[NoDopes]

No.

There is a huuuuuuuge difference in reliance with automation and working your way from shitty planes up into the big 121 stuff in America, and the zero to hero in eastern cultures.

How many aircraft with a pusher have you flown?

Shit how many with a even a AoA?

My understanding is that once the AOA sensor failed like it did, there is nothing the pilot could do to overcome the incorrect adjustment by MAX autopilot assist nor disengage it?

 

[BoilerUP]

My understanding is that once the AOA sensor failed like it did, there is nothing the pilot could do to overcome the incorrect adjustment by MAX autopilot assist nor disengage it?

Comply with the Runaway Stabilizer memory item and move the Stab Trim switches to Cut Out...

 

[Maggot]

One of my favorite shows is Air Disasters on Smithsonian channel. The shit they reveal would make most people stop flying.
Remember Air France 447 that "disappeared in the Atlantic? Read this if you dare. And this was Air France a first world airline.

Air France Flight 447 Crashed Into the Atlantic in 2009. It’s Still One of Aviation’s Greatest Mysteries

Black-box revelations from the June 2009 crash paint a surprising picture of the chaos in the cockpit that led to one of aviation’s greatest mysteries.

www.popularmechanics.com

I grew up on airplanes, Dad was a captain with TWA, until I was 21 I had a pass and could fly for free. Loved to fly.

When I heard the reason the crash (below) happened somethin inside me changed and Ive not gotten on another commercial plane since. I try to make myself reason through it but something in my gut holds me back.

One of the theories is that apparently someone got in a hurry and they used a forklift to change the engine rather than a chain hoist. Cracked two to the three already stressed fatigued bolts holding the engine on the wing and it came off during take off. All those people died because someone was in a hurry.

www.washingtonpost.com › archive › politicsDC10 Bolt Broke After Other Failure - The Washington Post​

Jun 01, 1979 · June 1, 1979 National Transportation Safety Board experts established yesterday that the broken bolt widely blamed for last Friday's DC10 jumbo jet crash that killed 274 persons in

 

[308pirate]

They have two on the aircraft. They had a system to warn the pilots of a disagreement between them. Cheapo airlines decided not to invest in that system.

Thats your bottom line. Not mine.

Your lack of understanding of what I am saying is really displaying your subject matter ignorance.

But hey, it's the internet.

 

[308pirate]

Comply with the Runaway Stabilizer memory item and move the Stab Trim switches to Cut Out...

If I remember from the Netflix documentary on this, that's exactly what the Ethiopian crew did but by the time they took that action the aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces were too much to overcome.

Basically what the APA reps on the show were saying: you have less than 10 sec to figure this out before it becomes an unrecoverable problem.

Is that how you see it or is there something else?

 

[BoilerUP]

If I remember from the Netflix documentary on this, that's exactly what the Ethiopian crew did but by the time they took that action the aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces were too much to overcome.

Basically what the APA reps on the show were saying: you have less than 10 sec to figure this out before it becomes an unrecoverable problem.

Is that how you see it or is there something else?

I have not seen Downfall.

The Ethiopian crew had a pretty experienced Captain and as I recall a relatively green First Officer. What they failed to do as a crew, however, was SLOW THE JET DOWN. That's Pilot Shit 101 for flight control issues right back to Cessna 150s...reduce airspeed to lighten aerodynamic loads. When you're at TOGA or climb thrust down low and your airspeed goes to the moon, you're gonna struggle to spin that trim wheel.

I'll concede they had their hands full...but that's what two people are up there for. It also is a memory item, as in this procedure is important enough to commit to memory lest doing it slowly could cause loss of the aircraft.

Pull power
Stab Trim Switches - Cut Off
Stabilize airspeed somewhere at or just above min speed for the configuration
Manually adjust stab trim to better regain aircraft pitch control

I won't solely blame the crew, as I think the engineering behind a single AoA input was beyond ridiculous...but their actions certainly *did not* do them any favors for regaining positive control of the aircraft.

 

[Tempest 455]

I grew up on airplanes, Dad was a captain with TWA, until I was 21 I had a pass and could fly for free. Loved to fly.

When I heard the reason the crash (below) happened somethin inside me changed and Ive not gotten on another commercial plane since. I try to make myself reason through it but something in my gut holds me back.

One of the theories is that apparently someone got in a hurry and they used a forklift to change the engine rather than a chain hoist. Cracked two to the three already stressed fatigued bolts holding the engine on the wing and it came off during take off. All those people died because someone was in a hurry.

www.washingtonpost.com › archive › politicsDC10 Bolt Broke After Other Failure - The Washington Post​

Jun 01, 1979 · June 1, 1979 National Transportation Safety Board experts established yesterday that the broken bolt widely blamed for last Friday's DC10 jumbo jet crash that killed 274 persons in

I remember that crash. I was living in Milwaukee at the time. Flew out of Chicago often.