Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

[dlc356]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hilbillee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Marlin looks good. What caliber is it? </div></div>

Thanks Hilbillee, it's a .30-30.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NukeMMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Folks just need to learn that there are some remarkable marksmen out there that have earned the respect for some of us to just shut up and listen. If you don't believe what they say, just nod your head, remain shut up and go away.</div></div>
Yup.

 

[Hummer]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Rifle came w/ plastic stock as youth model 700 in 308. Found this stock on ebay. Already beat up but pillar bedded up well after I shortened stock to fit. Now 7/08.

 

[Graham]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Is that a scope mount on the barrel?

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I see this thread is about " You know you are a red neck when "
you build a gun like this, and want to shoot long range with it!

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

Now I could probably make some money with a gun like that.

But I still wouldn't suggest a new shooter learn on one.

It's kind of like showing up when the boys are struggling to get their scoped deer rifles sighted in from the bench and you break out a M1 and a sling and tear up the gongs. It's just fun to shoot an underdog sometimes.

 

[Victory]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Its interesting, thats for sure.

 

[sharac]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I really don't understand why the need for such an apparatus (can't call it a rifle sorry). I agree (and most here also) that shooting is not about equipment and that major factor is still the shooter but going to this extreme? Maybe the whole point of this is to show armchair ninjas that top of the line gear is for those who really need it (i.e. running around with rifles and actually using them for primary purpose - warmaking) and that those of us shooting at paper can easily do with much less and that best equipment doesn't equal good score. So yeah if your intention is to make people look into mirror and work on their beer belly, heart rate and lifestyle in general and make them practice more with less ok but you can't be serious that this contraption works better than most out of the box combos most stores sell nowadays.

 

[HunterBear71]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

I like it. It must be fun to embarrass the gadget guys with it.

 

[m48shooter]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

cliff huston and his son are my "local cottage gunsmiths" down here in fl. found out about him from a friend of a friend... he re-bbl my mauser w a 2 groove 03 bbl.... i knew he was a name in the high power world, and the his son had shot along side david tubbs... it sure is a small world... that "charactor" very well could talk to a telephone pole and leave it smiling... we had a great talk ref boattails, and flat bottoms.... i need to call him, havn't talked to him for some time...

 

[Graham]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Real radicals don't come up with new schemes, they think about old ideas in new ways. I have an opinion, but I'll leave it up to the members here to determine for themselves what's going on above.

 

[mgd45]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Hummer,

I always thought it was a "no-no" to mount stuff on the barrel. I can only assume that since you've done it, you haven't seen any measurable decrease in accuracy.....or have you seen an increase over mounting it on the receiver?

 

[Hummer]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Had a long talk with John Unertl about this back in 90s and he had a Phd in optics and he said he had heard all the arguements and the theory behind it but that no one had ever been able to demonstrate it to him.
He said he made them both ways because people asked for both.
It is kind of like global warming. If you have to have a justification for it you have to say it over and over and over and as I think it was Hitler??? Goebbles??? who said a lie told repeatedly becomes the truth.
He obviously could have anything he wanted and he used the long scopes.
Now I understand there was a arguement between Unertl Senior and Fecker whether to move the center lens or the objective lens to attain best focus characteristics and they broke up over it and Fecker made his center adjust and Unertl kept on with objective adjust.

I do know I have seen alot of internal adjustment scopes not take a change until a couple rounds jarred it enough to move the internal mechanism.

It is also known to shoot long range you need a ramped base to take care of the elevation as it is limited in internal adjustment scopes and the ramps I have seen run like 200.00.

Also when the internal scopes get to the top of their adjustment range the windage adjustments get less.

Some of the internal adjustment jobs are more rugged than external but do they repeat as well as external?

Seems I wrote how to check scopes for repeatability. Same test can be done for iron sights.

So I guess it is up to the guy with the money. All I know is Unertls now sell for six times more than they cost new and the internals go down in price but then again I am keeping the long ones.

I have a Unertl with TK Lee Range reticle in a 14X 1 1/4" target scope. Somewhere I have a Lyman Super with Lee 3 dot reticle. My Dad used it very effectively shooting hawks, buzzards etc. I saw him drop a hawk out at 415 yards first shot once with a 220 Wilson Arrow.

For those that don't know, TK made the reticles for bomb sights during the war.

 

[mgd45]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Hummer,

Thanks for the response......but my question to you was....


"Did you notice an increase in accuracy by moving the scope onto the barrel as compared to the mount not touching the barrel"

I think a lot of people are surprised to see it touching the barrel.

 

[dlc356]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

My rifle's a little different the XS Scout mount uses the rear dovetail in the barrel and forward screw holes in the receiver.

Didn't Jeff Cooper mount his optic on the Cooper Scout rifle to the barrel?

 

[Hummer]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

Yeah I have a couple mounts like that, one a Burris and a couple are Square D????

Insofar as seeing a change in accuracy from receiver mount to barrel mount with this rifle, one is a 2 1/2X with heavy cross hairs and other is a 20X Unertl with fine cross hairs so the aiming error shooting at 300 is reduced significantly with higher magnification. The only way to shoot with the 2 1/2X is to use a large aiming point and try to center jumbo cross hairs in it. The cross hairs cover up five inch steel target discs at 300 and the 20X can look inside 2" black dot at 300.
As the movie line goes "aim small miss small, aim big miss big" or something to that effect.

TK Lee told my Dad he couldn't see why guys paid to buy a high X scope with small cross hairs for a fine aim point and then send it to him to have dots put in that destroyed the fine aim point. He was in it for the money and the customer is always right.

In my opinion the biggest improvement in accuracy over the years is from barrel quality, bullet quality, propellent quality going up significantly. The long external scopes ceased about 2000 so only short scopes are out there now
so we have the chicken or the egg question. Did the good barrels, bullets, propellant make the big difference or was it the scopes. My money is on the barrels, bullets, propellants.

Dave Lyman (whose ancestors started Lyman Gunsight Corp) is a good friend and can buy anything he wants and he is buying all the old Lyman Super Targetspots he can find.

Most of the high power shooters have gone wild over Kowa scopes. You have to look at one real hard at long range before buying one and that came from a Kowa distributor lips.

I went to Perry about 03 I guess and did not plan to shoot the long range team matches and as it turned out I was asked to shoot by friends but alas no ammo. They asked me to coach. I showed up with my B&L Balscope 60 and the team captain wanted me to use his new Kowa. I set them up at 1000 side by side and looked through both. I called him up to have a looksee and he picked his up and walked off looking at it shaking his head.
I own three Kowa scopes, two have Bushnell name plates on them and one has a Tasco name plate but they were made by Kowa. Exact same scope with Kowa name sells for four times as much. I also have three Balscope Seniors, one NIB. Also have a Steiner 24X I just sent off to have it sold. Good scope but over rated and over powered for long range use. It can't be fixed like I would want it so it is going. I have had two Unertl spotting scopes and traded them off in 80s knowing I could get more from John at 25% off. Now they are bringing a mint on ebay. Oh well.

For long range use now I use 15X eyepiece on B&L Balscope Senior and 15X eyepiece on Bushnell No 5 45 degree scopes.

My buddy from England who was on the Brit 300 Meter Squad used to visit me on the way to Perry each for ten years before he died. I got him a bank account/VISA card over here and about two months before he arrived I started getting boxes in for him. He got a brand new 45 angle Kowa with big eyepiece and we set them up on my range at 600 yards and neither of us could see anything like bullet holes the other could not see. We both agreed the Kowa with jumbo objective was about 5% brighter but insofar as seeing there was no advantage in either save for fact my scope sold for 90.00 new and his was like 800.00.

I have Lyman,Unertl external barrel mounts and Leupold,Burris,Weaver internals. For target work I will stay with externals but if I get into tactical game I will use my Leupold Mildots.

If for some unforseen reason I wind up with property behind me and can get 1800 yards it will be the external barrel mounts only and then I will barrel up 338 Lapua. Guy only wants about 1.5 mil for it and I am 1.6 mil short haha. I am ready, I have a backhoe just in case I hit the lottery we can get moving quick haha. My buddy has a track hoe and between us we can put up a hell of a backstop.

Any of yawl rich boys that wants a 1800 yard range without having to cut one tree I know where it is. Be advised the mirage here is a pure bitch in the middle of the day but in the winter when it is overcast and no wind it is like shooting indoors.

 

[Red_SC]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range applicati

FWIW, I've gotten some backchannel info about Hummer from a guy I know well and trust. He probably knows a thing or two more than most people, if not everyone, in this thread. He's no know-it-all rookie.

 

[sharac]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range applicati

I don't know anyone here nor pretend i do. I find it funny how some start to bash on people's opinion if they find they are not veteran/pro shooter/whatever gets you hard once it turns out one is a someone of those his words are holy grail. That aside i could not agree with mr. Hummer more in what he tries to convey. See the thread about cost of modern scopes...

But i still think that reasonably well made scope will be better that those barrel mounted cheapos atleast when rifle is being abused (and not stroked more than ones wifes...).
But i agree most of the stuff build today is of lesser quality and spending money in optics is all well and dandy to certain point and after that its waste of money (unless paying for ones ego/penis enlargement).

 

[Hummer]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range applicati

I totally agree the new scopes at least some of them are rugged. Even heard about a guy pounding a tent stake in with one but if you look at some of the Marine Corps snipers in South Pacific and Korea they were using barrel mount 8X Unertls. They were also issued in Nam. Same scopes made it in three wars.

Personally I never thought a scope was something to be abused and used for target practice with cleaning rods.

Col Bill Williams USMC retired told me Marines were like this. You could lock two Marines in a room, totally naked with no windows and give them two cannon balls and come back two weeks later they would have lost one and broke the other.

 

[Hummer]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range applicati

My best friend came down for turkey eating yesterday. He is retired multi military, 16 years USMC, 2 yrs. USMCR, six or so years SCNG, Sandbox 1 and we were talking about this thread and I told him about the cleaning rods through rear lens John Unertl told me about.
He rolled laughing and said he was sure it happened numerous times.

He relayed to me another story. They were at Lejeune on a exercise when he was active and the kids had stuck a pick'em up out on the beach that had been churned to hell by the Amtracs and this E5 had directed a trac to back up and was offrealing cable to hook to the pickemup.
This lieutenant tells the E5 he can't pull the pick up out with the Amtrack and the E5 tells the LT, yes sir I can and has the driver of the track take off. Well there was about a hundred feet of cable left in this loop to lay out and by the time the cable was about taught the track was about to approach take off speed and the truck was snatched out, became airborne and in the middle of its flight the front bumper came off the truck.
The LT went ballistic and took this E5 to 05 and told him the E5 had just destroyed the truck. The E5 told the 05 the LT had told him he could not pull the truck out with the track and he proved to the LT it could be done. The 05 dismissed the E5 and told the LT, "You never tell a sergeant he can't do something, you tell him he should not do it in that manner." E5 was not charged.
He has some other great stories that are similar and he completely agreed with the scope story.

Another was he was on radio watch one night and gets call to come to a comvan for a radio repair and when he walks in and he sees this LT screaming into a hand mic trying to raise someone he starts to get chewed out by this LT who basically tells him the gear is shit, his people can't keep the gear working etc etc.

My buddy does not do a thing but go over and pick up the end of the mic cord and plug it back in the radio and says, "Sir, I believe we have a operator malfunction here."

He got another LT who was telling him in front of a 04 and 06 that he "rated respect by enlisted personnel". He promptly told him "Sir, you rate a mechanical compliance with orders, you must earn respect." and said the LT was standing there with his mouth out of gear and the 04 and 06 just stood there and smiled.

 

[Sig685]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range applicati

Many, many years ago, I used three piece cleaning rods and one day, the tip caught in the bore; it simply would not budge. So I kept applying more and more pressure and the cleaning rod, most of which was outside the bore bent and broke at a joint. I went flying forward pushing the rear piece of the cleaning rod like a dagger. I almost fell on top of the rifle but there was no riflescope on this rifle, just an aperture sight and I just went right over it.

The next day I bought a Parker Hale one piece cleaning rod and tossed all the rifle cleaning kits with sectional rods. This was almost 30 years ago and I still look upon sectional cleaning rods with disdain.

I have absolutely no problem believing that cleaning rods can hit and break a riflescope.

 

[Hummer]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range applicati

I did same thing about two weeks ago trying to get a bronze brush down my 7615. Rod joint was just a hair loose and it broke and I went forward. I was lucky that I was able to get out the stub so now is is still a two piece rod and I can still use it in the short barrel.
One piece rods make up the other dozen I have.

 

[NukeMMC]

Re: Poor mans Sniper Scope for mid range application.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The guy I miss the most is Dobber. He was a "real certified card carrying character". I first met him at Perry in 73 which I think was his first trip there. I almost went to Crane. They wanted me to take over all the match weapons supports for all the Navy Teams. Wish I had gone now but Lord had other plans for me and sent me to Aberdeen PG as Small Arms Test Director. My best day there I shot up $63,000.00 in ammo.</div></div>

Back in 91, I helped Dobber build a Trophy MK2-1 (7.62mm M1 Garand) into a full-house NM rifle. Added the 1/2moa sights, trigger work, bedded in Marine-Tex, stripped and Tru-Oil'd the stock. The owner ended up selling me the rifle for my dad, also a former Navy shooter. I just returned from my dad's house in Maine, where I "rescued" the rifle from storage in the garage. Rust on the buttplate and rear sling swivel and a little here and there in other places. I'll fix it back up, may need to refresh the bedding also, and return it to him.....maybe after a few dozen rounds....just to test it.

He also had aColt commercial 1911A1 he bought back in the early 50s. He had F. Bob Chow do a Service Accuracy package to it in 58. A friend of the family had at least one leg on it. I got my first 6 points on it. I had it rebarreled and new Bo-Mars put on it by Paul Taylor....another Navy armorer. It was stolen about 10 years ago. It turned up about 5 or 6 months ago in a gunshop the next county over. When he got it back, it had a standard barrel/bushing, different grip safety, had been stripped of the original 1928 bluing and had no sights on it. Yet another project to try and restore. Only 10 more points to Leg out with the pistol.