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[LuckyLuke80]

Let me preface this with the fact I am not a Catholic, but a Bible believing Christian.



He is probably a Oneness Pentecostal or Apostolic. Either way his heresy is modalism and was condemned at Nicaea in 325 and outright rejected at Constantinople in 381. There are several wrong things have been said so here we go:



First, you are appealing to the fallacy of specificity. Yes the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible, but you know what other word doesn’t? Monotheism. Does that mean that the Christian faith isn’t monotheistic? Absolutely not. What it means is we sometimes give categorical names to theological truths we see in scripture.



Next Nicaea was not called to establish the doctrine of the Trinity, as it has its roots in ancient Judaism and the New Testament. Even the patristic fathers spoke of the Trinity. The counsel was called to address heresies that had popped up, mainly Arianism but also this heresy of modalism. The Nicene Creed was produced to officially codify into writing the long held belief of the Trinity. Ask yourself why would non-trinitarian heresies exist prior to Nicaea if the Trinity was invented at Nicaea? The fact is it goes all the way back to Jesus and had its roots in the Jewish understanding of the “Two powers in heaven” doctrine (go read up on that). Example Gen 19:24 “YHWH God rains down fire from YHWH out of heaven”



This leads to the next point you bring up, the name of Jesus. God already was named in the Old Testament and his name is YHWH (I am that I am). Since I am guessing you are a KJV only person too, everywhere in the OT where it says LORD in all capitals, that is because in Hebrew it is the divine name YHWH.



What’s funny is Jesus in Hebrew is actually Yeshua (יֵשׁוּעַ) or sometimes Yehoshua (יְהוֹשֻׁעַ) which literally means YHWH is salvation. So sorry Jesus isn’t somehow the revealed name of God.



Next let’s touch on some trinitarian Bible verses. Aside from the aforementioned great commission verse in Matthew 28:19, here are some more.



2 Corinthians 13:14. This verse includes a blessing that mentions the "grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit," again explicitly mentioning all three persons.



John 1:1-5 This passage describes Jesus as the Word, stating that "the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse emphasizes Jesus's divine nature and his co-equality with the Father



John 10:30 Jesus declares, "I and the Father are one," further reinforcing the unity of the Godhead and the divine nature of Jesus



Hebrews 1:1-4 This passage emphasizes the supremacy of Jesus, who is the "bright reflection of God's glory and the exact representation of his being



1 Corinthians 8:6 this says there “one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” showing the diversity and unique personhood in the Godhead



And the list goes on and on…

None of those show me how there can be three co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent gods that make up one deity? How can one God have all power but share it equally with two others? How can Jesus pre exist (as trinitarians believe) and still be born of a virgin? “I am God, and beside me there is no other.” Sounds pretty clear to me. He said that no man can see him and live, and He had to fulfill the law and the covenant so made a human body that he put on like a robe and walked this earth for 33 years and died to redeem us from our transgressions. We could get into the discussion on if Jesus could have sinned. I bet that would get entertaining.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

“I am God, and beside me there is no other.” Sounds pretty clear to me.

That is from Isaiah 45:5, written around 700BC and from the old testament, the old covenant with God. And here he was speaking to Cyrus, the only gentile ruler to be anointed by God on the rebuilding of Jerusalem for Israel.

You are taking the verse out of context as to what was going on

Also, I would suggest taking the time to understand the difference between the 2(old and new) as for most of my life I did not grasp the difference and it wasn't until recently a little angle came along and showed me the light.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

That is from Isaiah 45:5, written around 700BC and from the old testament, the old covenant with God. And here he was speaking to Cyrus, the only gentile ruler to be anointed by God on the rebuilding of Jerusalem for Israel.

You are taking the verse out of context as to what was going on

Also, I would suggest taking the time to understand the difference between the 2(old and new) as for most of my life I did not grasp the difference and it wasn't until recently a little angle came along and showed me the light.

The difference between the old and new is easy. Old Testament is God’s extreme feeling about sin. The New Testament is God’s remedy for sin. No I am not taking the verse out of context. Old or New Testament aside, what God says about Himself absolutely matters.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

The difference between the old and new is easy. Old Testament is God’s extreme feeling about sin. The New Testament is God’s remedy for sin. No I am not taking the verse out of context. Old or New Testament aside, what God says about Himself absolutely matters.

My suggestion remains the same.

Edit, I don't believe you grasp the deeper meanings between the two. Check out Romans 8.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

My suggestion remains the same.

Edit, I don't believe you grasp the deeper meanings between the two. Check out Romans 8.

And my answer remains the same. There is no deeper meaning. That is the difference between the two testaments. Catholics are too hung up on the Old Testament laws and ordinances. They are trying to be save through all of these rituals yet Paul said if you offend in one you offend in all.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

And my answer remains the same. There is no deeper meaning. That is the difference between the two testaments. Catholics are too hung up on the Old Testament laws and ordinances. They are trying to be save through all of these rituals yet Paul said if you offend in one you offend in all.

And this answer should show you that I am definitely familiar with Romans 8. There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death…

 

[GreenGO Juan]

And the Spirit and Jesus are part of the Holy Trinity, those mentioned in Romans 8 you claim to know, which you seemed to state in post 501, are not God.

So are you recanting what you said in post 501?

 

[LuckyLuke80]

To whom did Jesus give the keys to the kingdom? Peter. What did Peter say about salvation? Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I’ve yet to have any trinitarian of any flavor anywhere be able to explain this verse

 

[LuckyLuke80]

No I am not recanting. Romans 8 was written to believers, not unbelievers.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

As was already asked by someone else, who is the Father of Jesus? Hint-Luke tells us that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary. So, “god the father” isn’t actually the Father?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

No I am not recanting. Romans 8 was written to believers, not unbelievers.

Its not about who it was written to. It's about what it means.

It was written for all to hear. In my opinon, As a message of hope for those who choose to hear it and a warning for those who do not.

So you say you grasp Romans 8 yet still deny the trinity? Are you saying you are a non believer?

 

[cgbills]

None of those show me how there can be three co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent gods that make up one deity? How can one God have all power but share it equally with two others? How can Jesus pre exist (as trinitarians believe) and still be born of a virgin? “I am God, and beside me there is no other.” Sounds pretty clear to me. He said that no man can see him and live, and He had to fulfill the law and the covenant so made a human body that he put on like a robe and walked this earth for 33 years and died to redeem us from our transgressions. We could get into the discussion on if Jesus could have sinned. I bet that would get entertaining.

Well your first sentence shows you do not understand the trinity. The doctrine of the trinity does not say there are three gods. There is one divine nature God, in three co-equal, co-eternal persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons share one essence or nature, but are distinct in their roles and relationships.

These roles and relationships are what we see directly in the scriptures.



The Father Initiates and directs the plan of salvation, sends the Son and the Holy Spirit, is the source of all things

The Son (Jesus) becomes incarnate and redeems humanity through his life, death, and resurrection, is the Word of God and the means by which creation was made, and Intercedes for humanity.


The Holy Spirit empowers believers to live according to God's will, convicts, teaches, and leads, and sanctifies and dwells within believers.

Additionally in the scriptures we see each person of the trinity is individually given the honors, attributes, names, deeds and seat of God.



Now we as limited humans do not fully understand how this works. We in no way could fully understand how the inner workings of the eternal relationship of the God head. It is rather arrogant to assume that you could fully understand God in that way. There is no logical contradiction that exists and we see the tenants of the Trinity in scripture, so we embrace the mystery.

Now to Jesus. He is the eternal Son who is fully divine. During the incarnation he took on human nature. He is now both fully God and fully man in one person without confusion or separation. This is called Chalcedonian Christology or the hydrostatic union. Without his fully divine nature he could not have lived a sinless life. Without his fully human nature he could not have been our representative, the new Adam, that atoned for all man kind.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Its not about who it was written to. It's about what it means.

It was written for all to hear. In my opinon, As a message of hope for those who choose to hear it and a warning for those who do not.

So you say you grasp Romans 8 yet still deny the trinity? Are you saying you are a non believer?

No. I’m saying since Romans 8 seems to be the whole of the New Testament to you, please explain to me where in Romans 8 that Paul tells us the three headed god exists.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Well your first sentence shows you do not understand the trinity. The doctrine of the trinity does not say there are three gods. There is one divine nature God, in three co-equal, co-eternal persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons share one essence or nature, but are distinct in their roles and relationships.

These roles and relationships are what we see directly in the scriptures.



The Father Initiates and directs the plan of salvation, sends the Son and the Holy Spirit, is the source of all things

The Son (Jesus) becomes incarnate and redeems humanity through his life, death, and resurrection, is the Word of God and the means by which creation was made, and Intercedes for humanity.


The Holy Spirit empowers believers to live according to God's will, convicts, teaches, and leads, and sanctifies and dwells within believers.

Additionally in the scriptures we see each person of the trinity is individually given the honors, attributes, names, deeds and seat of God.



Now we as limited humans do not fully understand how this works. We in no way could fully understand how the inner workings of the eternal relationship of the God head. It is rather arrogant to assume that you could fully understand God in that way. There is no logical contradiction that exists and we see the tenants of the Trinity in scripture, so we embrace the mystery.

Now to Jesus. He is the eternal Son who is fully divine. During the incarnation he took on human nature. He is now both fully God and fully man in one person without confusion or separation. This is called Chalcedonian Christology or the hydrostatic union. Without his fully divine nature he could not have lived a sinless life. Without his fully human nature he could not have been our representative, the new Adam, that atoned for all man kind.

But how can eternal be born? Jesus had a beginning at his physical birth. So was Jesus divine flesh that could do no sin? Was Jesus present at creation? If so then how did he die? Can a God die?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

No. I’m saying since Romans 8 seems to be the whole of the New Testament to you, please explain to me where in Romans 8 that Paul tells us the three headed god exists.

bless your little heart...

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Correct, I do not understand the trinity, because as the Bible clearly states, I am made in the image of God and I am not triune. I am one person. I am a father, I’m a husband, I’m a friend, I’m a truck driver etc. but that doesn’t make me multiples. It means I am one person that is doing different jobs. God does the EXACT same thing. He is the Father. He fathered a son miraculously then he put that flesh on and walked among us. He was hungry, tired, happy, sad, and even tempted. Just like you and I for us to see that we can do it too. I don’t understand the trinity, but I am not confused as to who God is.

 

[cgbills]

But how can eternal be born? Jesus had a beginning at his physical birth. So was Jesus divine flesh that could do no sin? Was Jesus present at creation? If so then how did he die? Can a God die?

No Jesus was not present at creation, the eternal Son was. Jesus is the union of the Nature of the Eternal Son with human nature. Jesus’ death on the cross was physical death, not spiritual death, so no God did not die

 

[LuckyLuke80]

No Jesus was not present at creation, the eternal Son was. Jesus is the union of the Nature of the Eternal Son with human nature. Jesus’ death on the cross was physical death, not spiritual death, so no God did not die

But to be a “son” one must be born…

 

[cgbills]

Correct, I do not understand the trinity, because as the Bible clearly states, I am made in the image of God and I am not triune. I am one person. I am a father, I’m a husband, I’m a friend, I’m a truck driver etc. but that doesn’t make me multiples. It means I am one person that is doing different jobs. God does the EXACT same thing. He is the Father. He fathered a son miraculously then he put that flesh on and walked among us. He was hungry, tired, happy, sad, and even tempted. Just like you and I for us to see that we can do it too. I don’t understand the trinity, but I am not confused as to who God is.

No what you are describing is called modalism and is not what is going on in the Bible. Further you seem to misunderstand what it means to be made in God’s image. That does not mean you somehow have God’s nature, it means you are his representative here as being an image ment in the ancient world.

Also yes you are one person and not multiple, but this is because you are not of a divine nature. You do not have the same attributes or the divine nature

 

[cgbills]

But to be a “son” one must be born…

No son does not mean that. To be a son is a relational thing. How can you call someone who is adopted your son? It’s not that you have birth to him or that he is of your flesh, it is his relationship to you. In the same way, how can we be called sons of God? God does not birth us, rather it is our relationship to him

Also there are spiritual beings that are not born in the OT who are called sons of God. Son-ship does not equal birth

So the eternal Son is not the son because the Father birthed him, the eternal Son is a son because of his relationship to the Father. This language is by Jesus himself to put into human family terms the closeness of the eternal relationship in the Godhead

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Then what about Genesis 1 where God says “let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”?

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Then what about Genesis 1 where God says “let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”?

This is a verse trinitarians like to use, but according to what you’re saying we are not actually in God’s likeness. And yes, we do have His nature in salvation. That is precisely what salvation is. It is us being changed from our “natural” way, or nature, to His nature.

 

[cgbills]

Then what about Genesis 1 where God says “let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”?

Yes we are created in his image after the likeness of what we would call the divine council (I.e. co ruling/ administrating )But this language in the Hebrew and in the context of the ancient world does not mean what we as moderns have assigned to it. It does not mean we somehow have a piece of God’s divine nature. It means we are his representatives or his vice regents here on earth. The same language is used in ancient times to refer to a kings representative

 

[cgbills]

This is a verse trinitarians like to use, but according to what you’re saying we are not actually in God’s likeness. And yes, we do have His nature in salvation. That is precisely what salvation is. It is us being changed from our “natural” way, or nature, to His nature.

I am a Trinitarian and I never would reference this verse to support the trinity. That is because I understand what it meant it in it originally context. Here God is not talking to himself, he is talking to the heavenly hosts/divine council.

Additionally you seem to misunderstand what is meant by nature. Nature is not a reference to our natural way and does not reference behavior. What nature means in this discussion is what we are made of, our substance. We are made of a physical nature. God is made up of an immaterial nature. There are other spiritual beings that have an immaterial nature, but they do not have God’s immaterial nature. So to respond to what you said, no salvation is not us being turned into God’s nature/substance.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

But we are taking on His nature. Repentance is death of our will, or nature. Baptism is the burial of that dead body. And being born again of the spirit through the infilling of the Holy Ghost is our new life.

 

[cgbills]

But we are taking on His nature. Repentance is death of our will, or nature. Baptism is the burial of that dead body. And being born again of the spirit through the infilling of the Holy Ghost is our new life.

2 Peter 1:4 speaks of believers becoming "partakers of the divine nature" through God's promises. We are partakers of the divine nature, not in the sense of becoming literally God, but in becoming more like God in character and way of life. But we are partaking in that Divine nature/substance of God, we are not made God and we do not loose our human nature/substance. God’s divine nature helps us to become our true human nature. Think about it, Adam and Eve were in communion with God in the garden with human nature. Human nature /substance isn’t inherently bad, sin just corrupts

But bringing that back to the trinity discussion, Nature is referring to God’s substance, what he is made up of. You could never hope to describe the infinite Divine nature/substance using the finite human nature/substance as a reference point

 

[cgbills]

But we are taking on His nature. Repentance is death of our will, or nature. Baptism is the burial of that dead body. And being born again of the spirit through the infilling of the Holy Ghost is our new life.

Also you missed one key point of baptism. Yes it represents our death when we go into the waters, but it also represents our resurrection when we come out of the waters. It is symbolism tied to Jesus death and resurrection. Just as Jesus’ body died and was resurrected, so too will ours. Also just as Jesus did not loose his human nature when he was resurrected, neither do we loose ours (again nature in the sense of what we are made up of/substance and not behavior)

Additionally being born of the spirt is symbolically tied to the incarnation of Jesus. Just as the divine nature was tied to the human nature in the incarnation, so to is our human nature connected to the divine (though in a lesser and different way than with Jesus) when we are born of the Spirit. Both baptism and being born of the spirt are directly analogous to Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection and His incarnation (an incarnation that is not possible without a trinitarian understanding)