Prone and pressure

CTPAXA_HET

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Apr 17, 2020
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So, I’ve got a few questions.

I have a T1X 22 in a KRG Bravo Chassis that I really love. However, I am struggling in the consistency department. Sometimes I can stack my shots on top of each other at 50 yards, but most of the time with the same ammo I am closer to 1.5-2 inches. I know I have a consistency problem, because sometimes my groups are dead on, and often they are at 12:00 to 2:00, and sometimes they’re all over the place.

What seems to be my biggest issue is putting pressure on the gun consistently. I have heard that putting as little pressure on the gun as possible will get the best results. That leads me to barely hover my face on the stock and use just my thumb and trigger finger, and I sometimes get good results, although the rifle is rather jumpy for a 22 and I struggle to call shots.

Based on my reading, lots of people say that you should use 3 fingers to pull back on the stock, and rest your head on the stock. When I try that, I get inconsistent pressure and groups open up. My head is pretty heavy.

I also struggle to get good head placement on the stock - I feel like my head is coming at it from the side, I get inconsistent head/eye placement, and eye box issues. I really have to drop my head on it to get things lined up. Feels abnormal.

Does anybody have any tips/resources to set up a rifle and then how to hold the darn thing? Lots of people have described the basics but I don’t get how much or how little I should be on the gun. I am certain this rifle can consistently shoot well, but my technique/body mechanics isn’t helping. If it matters I’m 6’5”, shooting off a bipod (9-13 usually) with a rear bag.
 

Dthomas3523

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    How’s it shoot when on a bench with bipod and bag with as little influence from you as possible?

    It’s a .22, so you can free recoil it without much issue and make sure it’s you. That’s pretty inconsistent. Unless you’re totally fubar on the gun, sounds like an equipment or rifle issue to be that far off.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Though if you’re having trouble seeing shots in a .22, you’ll likely need to have someone take a look at your setup and fix you.

    Should be zero issue keeping a .22 stable and seeing your shots.
     

    Precision Underground

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    If you can’t call your shot with a 22 you are probably blacking out for a split second at the trigger pull. Dry fire every day(make sure no ammo is anywhere near you, do it) and make sure you are staying present and watching what is going on all the way through the trigger pull and the second after. My guess is you’ll have trouble at first not flinching/blacking out even when dry firing. Once you can keep an absolute flatline in your head with zero reaction to the trigger pull start adding a live round every 10 trigger pulls. You have to learn to BE PRESENT and IN CONTROL when the trigger is pulled and beyond. A lot of people have no idea they are blacking out when they pull the trigger. Once you don’t do it you will feel the difference.
     

    Dobbs02si

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    I literally just had this convo with a buddy yesterday about his 338lm. My first rifle was a 7rm...flinch magnet. Took me a while but I got over it after several, several rounds. Same with a pistol when I started shooting. I catch myself trying to blink every now and then still. I just get off the gun, walk around, talk to spotter/shooter, anything to start fresh. Get back on the gun and carry on.

    Most of mine is a noise issue. Under a canopy even a 223 gets to me, but out in the weeds I can shoot a braked mag with little problem...usually.
     

    Jack Master

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    Read Read Read more of this site. Its all here.
    Here are some links. Have you read these?
    fundamentals-of-marksmanship
    question-on-prone-shooting-position
    Sniper's Hide online training is $18 a month. Frank has quite a few videos on rifle set up and fundamentals.

    Here is fitting the rifle to the shooter.
    The proper length of pull is all about being able to efficiently run the rifle (not the optic) correctly in a relaxed un-muscle-ed manor.
    So we have all seen the crook of the elbow to the trigger finger measurement. This is a good starting point. Now we need to get into the prone shooting position (without the scope on the rifle) and start to dry fire. We are looking at 3 things to refine the length of pull.
    1. Placement of the cheek on the cheek riser. We need to make sure we are getting to a comfortable place on the riser. Making sure our face is not hanging off the front or the back is all we are looking for here.
    2. Crook/kink in the firing hand wrist. If the wrist is kinked to much we start to loose dexterity in our fingers, especially our trigger finger. Rolling you thumb to the hand side (rather than wrapping it around the stock or grip) can help this dexterity too. We are looking for easy movement of the fingers and a relaxed, un-muscled wrist position. If our wrist starts to hurt after a few minutes because we are having to wrench it back to get a good grip means our LOP is too short and may need extended.
    3. Running the bolt. Running the bolt is, for me, is the true test of length of pull. We want to be able to run the bolt without fully lifting our elbow off the ground. Some elbow movement is okay but having to lift our elbow to eye level to get enough leverage on the bolt lift means our LOP is too long and needs shortened.
    Finding the sweet spot in these 3 is the key to length of pull.

    Once 1,2 and 3 are comfortable; now mount your scope and set the eye relief to match your position Do not make your body get to the scope, bring the scope to you.


    Head cant and cheek rest height have very little in common. (some but little)
    Cheek rest height has 2 factors. 1. The height of the scope over bore and 2. what type of cheek weld you y have/want (chin, mid cheek, cheek bone) Cheek rest height is all about getting proper eye alignment behind the scope to have proper sight picture.
    Head cant comes from the height of the rifle system from the ground and your body type. In general, the lower you put your rifle to the ground the more your head will role over. The higher you put the rifle will move you head more vertical. I have a bigger frame and bigger body type (starting my diet "next week") so I prefer a higher rifle position. This puts my head in a near vertical position and my body is supported up on my elbows. I have a tall bipod position and tall-ish rear bag to get to this position. If your rifle is too low your head position and neck tension will surly tell you in a hurry. Listen to your neck the most, if its hurting after being in the prone position for 15-20 minutes, you are too low.

    Now, all these items have to come together. (LOP 1-2-3, Cheek height, rifle Height) Changing our rifle height from the ground can change how we can run the bolt because our body and body support is in a different position. This can also change our cheek weld position front to back. Changing our cheek weld type can effect your rifle height and cheek riser height. This will take some time to iron out as you start shooting more and more. Make minor tweaks and adjustments as you go. Once you think your are comfortable with your setup change something slightly like adding or shortening LOP just a bit and see if you like it better. Raise and lower the bipod height to get a feel for what is most comfortable for you.

    Ready, set, go. Good Luck.

    The fundamentals of marksmanship are what likely what need to be refined. Consitency is the key.
    Body position. Cheek weld. Sight picture through the scope(parallax). Grip. Trigger finger placement and trigger control. Rear bag Squeeze. Any one of these done improperly will cause larger groups.

    To set up your cheek weld and cheek pressure we need to decide what placement of the cheek weld will be (chin, mid cheek, cheek bone) and make sure you are repeating that same cheek weld consistently. We need to have good contact with the rifle to have a consistent cheek weld through recoil bu light enough to not influence the rifle too much. Start by setting your cheek riser so you have a lot of head pressure on the rifle to get a perfect sight picture through the scope. Now lower the cheek riser until you start to get a little shadowing in the scope. Now you will need to raise your head or roll you head back just a bit to get a perfect sight picture. This will help control a consistent cheek weld pressure and get perfect sight picture. As you "mount " the rifle allow you head to fully rest on the rifle with bad sight picture then start to slowly release you head pressure until you get perfect sight picture. this is your cheek weld.

    Refine your bipod height. If you are 6-5 don't be afraid to be in a higher position to get a vertical head as stated above attached post on fitting the rifle to the shooter. A taller body position will stop you from laying on your rifle. present the rifle to your collar bone and make sure that is nothing above the top point of the but stock. Get a high enough position to do this.

    Trigger control is HUGE. bad trigger control could open groups
    Parralax can be big. Do you have adjustable parallax on you scope? of Not, and its set at 100 or 150 (standard factory setting) you could be getting groups due to this. To fix this issues, do not break you shooting position in your group. If you lift your head from the scope you'll change the parralax position. Shoot all 5 or 10 group shots without breaking your sight picture.

    Here are more things to read.
    Here is my 2 cents. Take them or leave them. These are all dependent on you and your rifle set up. Since you didnlt share what rifle and stock you are shooting I've made assumptions.

    Your photos make it look like these groups are about 4-5 inches apart. At 500 and 700 yards that is still less than 1 moa. What is the real number?

    Fundamentals checklist
    1. Parallax - Are you shooting a scope with adjustable parrallax? if its not adjusted for the distance this could happen.
    2. Cheek weld - are you picking your head up between shots to run the bolt? If so, don't. Keep your face in the gun.
    3. Sight picture - are you looking straight through the scope every time? if you're breaking your cheek weld you might be changing your sight picture.
    4. Sight alignment - was there any mirage while shooting? could you have been aiming at 2 different spots that looked the same due to mirage? You barrel might be heating up and causing mirage in your scope.
    5. Scope power - are you on max power that could make mirage worse? Dial it back to 10x then shoot.
    6. Bipod load - this can change your POI if you sock has any flex in it. A cheap plastic stock will flex more with more bipod loading, this points the barrel higher in loading and when its suddenly unloaded by firing the rifle the barrel will drop. iF you have a rigid chassis this might not be the case.
    7. Breathing - if 2 shots are taken at the bottom of a breathing cycle and 3 at the top or in the process you could get this to happen.
    8. Trigger control - Are you slapping the trigger? Some people have elevations issues from slapping.
    9. Recoil management - I am assuming these were shot prone - did your shoulder eat the recoil the same way everytime? was your shoulder relaxed for a couple shots then tensed up for a couple as the recoil started to get to you? tense shoulder will send rounds high. is the rifle hopping during recoil and making your should weld different for the next shot (in other words - did the rifle walk away from you )
    10. Recoil management - are your straight behind the rifle with the but stock pulled to the center of your body? my but pad is typically on my collar bone. If you are bladed from the rifle the recoil can cause this, if your out on your deltoid way out in the "shoulder Pocket" you might be handling recoil different.
    10.A - Are Your Flinching!

    Equipment checklist
    11. Something loose - are all of the screws in your scope, mount and rifle tight? I have had this happen then the action screw were not tight to spec.
    11.A. is your scope reticle moving? could a piece of glass be loose in your scope?
    12. Stock - if you have a cheap plastic stock if it flexing under recoil right where your trigger hand grips the rifle? Cheap hollow plastics are notorious for this. - better recoil management can help reduce the effect of this.
    13. Reloads - could slight neck tension differences do this? - Were all the the brass then same brand and water Volume?
    14. Chamber-ing - Did you cook the rounds in the chamber before firing? (heat them up with barrel heat) This can cause high impacts.
    15. Barrel - How many rounds are through the rifle and how long has it been since cleaned? I had a carbon ring build up right in front of the chamber in one of my rifles and I started getting 3 groupings.
    16. Barrel - is this a thin pencil hunting barrel? is it getting hot and walking after 3 rounds?

    Want me to keep going? To get better answers we need better information. Rifle - scope- mount- position - bi-pod bi-pod mount. stock - chassis - time of day - weather - first born's name. To fix most of the issues above is getting experience and maybe taking a class.

    Hope this helps, good luck.
    collective-of-accuracy-reducers
     
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    thestoicmarcusaurelius

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    Sounds like natural point of aim (npa) is an issue. See if you can get Frank’s online training and pay special attention to npa and rifle setup videos.

    You should be able to “get behind the scope” and then put the reticle on the target and then “go to sleep” as in closing your eyes and doing normal breathing for ten or more seconds and the reticle still be really close to where it was when you got on target. If this isn’t happening, it’s a rifle set up issue or a body positioning issue with the way you’re addressing the rifle. You need to be able to feel like the rifle and scope is a natural extension and it point where you’re looking when you’re getting behind the scope and it stay that way comfortably if you’re in a position that doesn’t require a lot of physical exertion to maintain.
     
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    thestoicmarcusaurelius

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    And, this will be different for everyone within reasonable limitations as far as what rifle setup is most comfortable and conducive to a solid natural point of aim. It helps to have someone capture video so you can see what you look like.

    This doesn’t necessarily have to be done at the range. What other people said about practicing getting on and off the rifle is good. I think it can help to sort of close your eyes right at the point where your offhand has secured the rifle and you’re just putting your firing hand on the grip. The rifle should be set up in a way where you can get in a comfortable position with your eyes closed and then open them and you have a full sight picture through the scope without shadowing in a way that you’re not muscling the rifle too much using un needed energy or muscle tension.
     
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    thestoicmarcusaurelius

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    A lot of people think a higher scope mount with a more “straight up” head position feels more natural versus the traditional mount the scope as law as possible approach so you just have to find what works for you and your body.
     
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    CTPAXA_HET

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    Youre not shooting shitty ammo are you?
    A bucket of remington golden bullet wont get you a group like you desire.
    I do think I was expecting too much from my ammo. I took out a dozen varieties of .22 yesterday and really tried to get a feel for what was realistic for the various loads. After working on my shooting and working on rifle fit, I’m getting much more consistent groups. So far, I am getting right in the ballpark of consistent 1 MOA with Gemtech Match, 1-1.5 with CCI standard, and 1.5-2 with most high and hyper velocity stuff, with some lucky groups being much smaller.
     

    CTPAXA_HET

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    Apr 17, 2020
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    This is an awesome post, thank you for the links and the advice. I am definitely going to keep reading, and I’ll see about watching the video lessons. After hitting the range almost every day for the last week and a half, I think I’ve learned a lot just from trial and error.

    I definitely had the wrong cheek weld going on. I was trying to get a higher weld, but I realized that a mid-cheek weld is much more repeatable and requires a lot less pressure for me to keep my eye in the correct position.

    Also I was running the bipod too low. I had the rifle almost 10-11 inches off the ground when I decided it was an optimal fit.

    I’ve still got a lot to work on regarding the trigger. I’ll be looking out for other things that are messing with my accuracy.


    Read Read Read more of this site. Its all here.
    Here are some links. Have you read these?
    fundamentals-of-marksmanship
    question-on-prone-shooting-position
    Sniper's Hide online training is $18 a month. Frank has quite a few videos on rifle set up and fundamentals.

    Here is fitting the rifle to the shooter.



    The fundamentals of marksmanship are what likely what need to be refined. Consitency is the key.
    Body position. Cheek weld. Sight picture through the scope(parallax). Grip. Trigger finger placement and trigger control. Rear bag Squeeze. Any one of these done improperly will cause larger groups.

    To set up your cheek weld and cheek pressure we need to decide what placement of the cheek weld will be (chin, mid cheek, cheek bone) and make sure you are repeating that same cheek weld consistently. We need to have good contact with the rifle to have a consistent cheek weld through recoil bu light enough to not influence the rifle too much. Start by setting your cheek riser so you have a lot of head pressure on the rifle to get a perfect sight picture through the scope. Now lower the cheek riser until you start to get a little shadowing in the scope. Now you will need to raise your head or roll you head back just a bit to get a perfect sight picture. This will help control a consistent cheek weld pressure and get perfect sight picture. As you "mount " the rifle allow you head to fully rest on the rifle with bad sight picture then start to slowly release you head pressure until you get perfect sight picture. this is your cheek weld.

    Refine your bipod height. If you are 6-5 don't be afraid to be in a higher position to get a vertical head as stated above attached post on fitting the rifle to the shooter. A taller body position will stop you from laying on your rifle. present the rifle to your collar bone and make sure that is nothing above the top point of the but stock. Get a high enough position to do this.

    Trigger control is HUGE. bad trigger control could open groups
    Parralax can be big. Do you have adjustable parallax on you scope? of Not, and its set at 100 or 150 (standard factory setting) you could be getting groups due to this. To fix this issues, do not break you shooting position in your group. If you lift your head from the scope you'll change the parralax position. Shoot all 5 or 10 group shots without breaking your sight picture.

    Here are more things to read.


    collective-of-accuracy-reducers
     
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    spife7980

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    I do think I was expecting too much from my ammo. I took out a dozen varieties of .22 yesterday and really tried to get a feel for what was realistic for the various loads. After working on my shooting and working on rifle fit, I’m getting much more consistent groups. So far, I am getting right in the ballpark of consistent 1 MOA with Gemtech Match, 1-1.5 with CCI standard, and 1.5-2 with most high and hyper velocity stuff, with some lucky groups being much smaller.
    That sounds about right to me as far as results go with cheaper ammo.

    If you really want to shoot small groups even better ammo is called for.

    Personally, I like eley match (~30 cents per shot) which is one step down from their best lots which get labeled tenex (~ 40 cents per) in my win52b and annie54 rifles.
    Next up for me is Laupa center x which around 20 cents per shot, which my off hand martini likes just as well as the eley match so I opt for the cheaper option here.

    Eley club is pretty decent at 15 cents per shot, at 100 yards it starts to open up compared to the match so I dont put it in my competition rifles, just plinkers with scopes.

    Lots of people are hopping on the sk ammos with good resutls, I just havent found any in stock to test for myself when Im doing that sort of thing.

    All of my rifles will still shoot the shitty ammo shittily. Good ammo really brings them to life, it just costs as much as shooting 223 bulk ammo.




    I like to order my eley from killough shooting sports as they show you how much of what lot# they have left. Ill buy and test many different lots that are in ample supply so its still available when Im ready to buy again, when I find the winner I order several bricks to last me a year or two.
    1592499379730.png
     
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    Mr. Wolf

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    I’m glad that I came across this post. I am not an expert by any stretch, but here’s what I‘ve discovered while dry-firing My CZ 457 while waiting for the hurricane to pass.

    1. I Placed a shoot and see dot on a fence post in the back yard and stapled it so the rain and wind doesn’t wash it away and started dryfiring.
    2. Every 3rd or so dryfire, I’d see the reticle “twitch” off and go back on target. This was best seen with higher magnification.
    3. I slowly adjusted few of the fundamentals until i had zero “twitch” and center Of the reticle stayed completely still during and after breaking the shot.
    4. For me, I used my index finger and thumb of the support hand on the stock to solidify the Lateral component of the Natural point of aim cant and used the other fingers to squeeze the bag mostly by brining it back into my shoulder to adjust elevation. It aim was too high, I would shift position to get my natural point of aim rather than relaxing the rearward pressure.
    5. I exerted less pressure on the stock with my cheek so that I could to a parallax check “Head nod” without disturbing the scope. This is slightly different than what I am used to doing with my centerfire rifles where I usually try to get a cheek weld.
    6. On the firing hand, I would use my middle, ring and little finger to exert direct backward pressure on the grip towards my shoulder.
    7. I raised the bipod and slightly lowered the comb height to get a fully bright sight picture at a less extreme pupil to ocular Lens angle and got up more on my elbow (like a kid reading a book on the floor.)

    After about 20-30 minutes of practice, I was able to get 5 dryfires in a row without any movement of the reticle.
    I hope my beginner experience translates to range accuracy when the weather clears.

    YMMV, happy shooting.
     
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