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Protecting the border

BAT_Boy

critter_bill
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 1, 2005
390
24
Williamston, SC
A retired Marine friend and I were discussing the US-Mexico border issues recently. We both served in South Korea and realized that if we offered the same protection to our border that we provided to South Korea, 247 men per mile of border , we would have 486,343 men devoted to securing our southern border.

38,000 US service members and 154 miles of DMZ in South Korea versus 1969 miles of US/Mexico border.

We can protect South Korea but we can’t protect ourselves? Just wow!
 
Re: Protecting the border

Putting a half million troops on the border, would cost the tax payers like a billion dollars a week.

I am as frustrated by illegal immigration from Mexico as the next guy, but IMO someone who supports that kind of spending of taxpayer dollars just to keep Mexicans out of the country does so based purely on racism.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Putting a half million troops on the border, would cost the tax payers like a billion dollars a week.

I am as frustrated by illegal immigration from Mexico as the next guy, but <span style="font-weight: bold">IMO someone who supports that kind of spending of taxpayer dollars just to keep Mexicans out of the country does so based purely on racism.</span></div></div>

There ya go...throw that race card! Those who can't form a valid argument frequently throw the race card.

Oh, and how much exactly do you think is being spent per week with our boys over in the worlds largest sandbox?

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Putting a half million troops on the border, would cost the tax payers like a billion dollars a week.

I am as frustrated by illegal immigration from Mexico as the next guy, but IMO someone who supports that kind of spending of taxpayer dollars just to keep Mexicans out of the country does so based purely on racism. </div></div>

Your the one who put the racial connotations into his post.

The OP just stated what it would take to achieve the same level of security at the US Mexico border as the US now affords at the North Korea South Korea border.
 
Re: Protecting the border

OK, fair enough...but instead of getting emtional, why don't you guys explain why it would make financial sense to spend over 50 billion dollars of tax payer dollars per year to guard the Mexican border.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Putting a half million troops on the border, would cost the tax payers like a billion dollars a week.

I am as frustrated by illegal immigration from Mexico as the next guy, but IMO someone who supports that kind of spending of taxpayer dollars just to keep Mexicans out of the country does so based purely on racism. </div></div> <span style="color: red"> what a fool!!!! racist's are people who inject race into a context where it needn't be. you sir took that step </span>

Your the one who put the racial connotations into his post.

The OP just stated what it would take to achieve the same level of security at the US Mexico border as the US now affords at the North Korea South Korea border.
</div></div>


How about we just take all the troops from korea and put 'em on the mexican border, that would save money, not cost more.
 
Re: Protecting the border

I don't think racism has anything to do with it. One of main jobs of the federal government is national security, this includes keeping the borders secure. They are failing, however you are right that currently we cannot afford to put the military on the border, as the country is insolvent. I think one solution might be to let the citizens of this country do it ( with supervision of course)let the people go and spend a week and do their part for the country. I would gladly give a week a year. As for the argument that they are just coming here for work then they should apply and go through proper channels. The same way we as US citizens do when we want something. Instead of turning themselves into criminals by crossing the border ILLEGALLY.
 
Re: Protecting the border

Why does securing the border cost that much. You make it illegal to hire, rent, sell, give welfare to illegals, and if they go to the (emergency) hospital, deport them on release. It they commint any crime, deport them upon release from jail, or if found not guility of that crime, deport them after the trial.

If there is nothing here for them, they'll either go home or stay home.

That leaves are existing resourses to conbat drug runners and such.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, fair enough...but instead of getting emtional, why don't you guys explain why it would make financial sense to spend over 50 billion dollars of tax payer dollars per year to guard the Mexican border. </div></div>

Again, I pose the question; how much do you think the Iraq war is costing us per week, per month, per year?

I would much rather be spending that money protecting our southern border and, no, it wouldn't cost $50B per year because we wouldn't need that many troops on the ground.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How about we just take all the troops from korea and put 'em on the mexican border, that would save money, not cost more. </div></div>

Bring em home, I'm sure the troops would rather serve in Arizona Texas or California, than Korea. Cost's wouldn't be anywhere near the same.
 
Re: Protecting the border

Guys, let me clarify...

My opinion of "racism" was based on people who might support the idea of appx 250 troops per mile, the figure that the OP laid out.

Do you realize howe many that is? That is one troop every 7 yards across the entire border just standing around all day and night. I mean, come on, think about it. One troop every 7 yards across the entire Mexican border? Thats pretty silly to even think about.

And I realize they wouldn't all just be standing there, some would be in vehicles and buildings/shacks, etc., I was demonstarting what an insane amount of people that is for that amount of border.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, let me clarify...

My opinion of "racism" was based on people who might support the idea of appx 250 troops per mile, the figure that the OP laid out.

Do you realize howe many that is? That is one troop every 7 yards across the entire border just standing around all day and night. I mean, come on, think about it. One troop every 7 yards across the entire Mexican border? Thats pretty silly to even think about. </div></div> One soldier every 7 yards is more than needed for sure, but what/how/why does that have anything to do with racism?
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, let me clarify...

My opinion of "racism" was based on people who might support the idea of appx 250 troops per mile, the figure that the OP laid out. </div></div>

Nope, your foot is still solidly in your mouth.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you realize howe many that is? That is one troop every 7 yards across the entire border just standing around all day and night. I mean, come on, think about it. One troop every 7 yards across the entire Mexican border? Thats pretty silly to even think about. </div></div>

Being involved in policing the world via countless wars and countless other actions and getting my shipmates/service-mates killed needlessly, all the while leaving our own boarders open is what is really silly...
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, let me clarify...

My opinion of "racism" was based on people who might support the idea of appx 250 troops per mile, the figure that the OP laid out.

Do you realize howe many that is? That is one troop every 7 yards across the entire border just standing around all day and night. I mean, come on, think about it. One troop every 7 yards across the entire Mexican border? Thats pretty silly to even think about. </div></div> One soldier every 7 yards is more than needed for sure, but what/how/why does that have anything to do with racism? </div></div>

I'll put it like this:

Do you think someone in favor of a troop every 7 yards on the Mexican border and all the tax payer money associated with it, would also support the same thing on the Canadian border? Tons of illegals flood in from the north border too. And I'd bet my bottom dollar more people associated with "terrorism" come in the US across the loosely guarded Canadian border than the already heavily patrolled Mexican border.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'll put it like this:

Do you think someone in favor of a troop every 7 yards on the Mexican border and all the tax payer money associated with it, would also support the same thing on the Canadian border? Tons of illegals flood in from the north border too. And I'd bet my bottom dollar more people associated with "terrorism" come in the US across the loosely guarded Canadian border than the already heavily patrolled Mexican border. </div></div>

I'd take that bet... I would also say that your characterization that "tons of illegals flood in from the north border too" is false. I would bet that the U.S./Canada seeps less than 5% of the total illegals through that boarder. It's a push/pull economic issue, not a race one as you say. NAFTA forced cheap products on Mexico putting Mexican farmers out of business thus the U.S. pulls the jobs up from Mexico... That is not the case with Canada however.
 
Re: Protecting the border

I think our foreign friend could be forgiven his view the mexican border issue is laced with race. (also telling the rather harsh reaction to it, me think some doth protest too much!)

You see our friend across the ocean isn't born with USA blinders on. He sees that damn near EVERY immigration law has been written in racial terms. Entire race/ethnic/national origin groups were out right banned or severely restricted.

So for all we protest, there are many who's first thought when such discussions of 'security' come up the question is, "how dark is the threat?"

Now the few troops we still have left in South Korea wouldn't secure California. The troops we have in the Middle East would make maybe HALF what would be needed to DMZ our southern border. Lets not forget the true terrorists like to slip in on the NORTHERN border.

It doesn't make anymore sense to bankrupt us 'defending' our national interest in the Arizona desert as the Middle East.

But using landmines to blow up women and children or having a police state inplace at all levels of society to check our papers is sensible?

Heck, the British only wanted to quarter troops in private houses to keep us secure from the anarchists.

Somehow DMZ just doesn't spell America for me.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, let me clarify...

My opinion of "racism" was based on people who might support the idea of appx 250 troops per mile, the figure that the OP laid out.

Do you realize howe many that is? That is one troop every 7 yards across the entire border just standing around all day and night. I mean, come on, think about it. One troop every 7 yards across the entire Mexican border? Thats pretty silly to even think about. </div></div> One soldier every 7 yards is more than needed for sure, but what/how/why does that have anything to do with racism? </div></div>

I'll put it like this:

Do you think someone in favor of a troop every 7 yards on the Mexican border and all the tax payer money associated with it, would also support the same thing on the Canadian border? Tons of illegals flood in from the north border too. And I'd bet my bottom dollar more people associated with "terrorism" come in the US across the loosely guarded Canadian border than the already heavily patrolled Mexican border. </div></div>

Again, that has nothing to do with race. It has to do with the perceived invasion. while I'm sure many come in through Canada, there is not the same kind of problem like in the south. If mexican's were mostly white, and Canadians were mostly brown, the south border would still be the problem. Race has nothing to do with it.
 
Re: Protecting the border

Keyser, when I served in Asia for 5 years, I don't recall thinking that I'm doing my part to protect only the white citizens of my country. Then, the enemy were communists. Now China, oddly, is one of our biggest lenders. Are they any less a threat than in the 70s?

Not advocating a DMZ nor 247 troops per mile of border. Just addressing the level of "commitment" to Korea versus our own borders. Having served, I have utmost confidence in our armed forces. A few Special Forces teams (or a few good Marines) with support by conventional troops are more than a match for the cartels. They brutalize unarmed Mexican citizens and poorly armed US ranchers. The Zetas may not fair so well against trained and motivated professionals.

I sure as hell don't have the answers but sitting idly by and wringing hands surely won't get the job done. We live in interesting times.
 
Re: Protecting the border

I don't thank w need to have troops every 21' more like every 200yds or as necessary to see every thing. I am a strong believer in force on force. It is unfortunate that the country to the south dose not play at the same level as the US. Set up some shooters in undisclosed pos. And let the cartels try to play with us then. And by no means is the media allowed to be embedded with the troops.
 
Re: Protecting the border

I (as a Canadian) cannot believe some of the inane, AND insane comments placed here in this thread.

The OP started this, so let's break this down just a bit, from the 'Northern' view.

By all means, you all SHOULD protect your southern border more vigilantly and expeditiously. And YES, in doing so ya'll would SAVE money. I'll repeat the SAVE MONEY again, for those who slept through the first time. Here's how:

The drugs coming up from the south would essentially be stopped. I'm not saying that soldiers would let them through, but there are mistakes made, and I'll grant that "everyone" can make one. But the point here is that almost EVERY SINGLE drug shipment from the south by land wold be stopped.
--ergo, bazillions and bazillions in healthcare, small-crime, court-costs, prison-costs etc. would be realized in a short time.

The human smuggling and coyote'ing and trafficking and whateveritscalled'ing would be essentially stopped. (same disclaimer from above, applies) but so many 'illegal aliens' would be stopped from coming into the country.
--ergo, bazillions and bazillion in healthcare, small-crime, court-costs, prison-costs, etc. would be realized in a short time.

((enter the 'echo'))

And another thing. Up here, us Canuckians ARE ALSO against these things stated above, and do somewhat look out for (said perpetrators) and also we do what we can to protect our border as well. Not saying we're perfect either, but we at least take a vigilant stance (try?). We also have an agreement with the U.S. to have a Predator patrolling your northern border between Wisconsin and Montana, IIRC.
--ergo, not very much is coming in from the north, into your country. There may be some, but not very much, considering. And guess what rocket-surgeon... we're actually doing somewhat of an effort to prevent that crap up here too. AS OPPOSED TO THOSE SOUTH OF YOU, of whom the gov't is allegedly doing what they can to be a part of the problem.

((enter another echo.... just to be sure))

So yeah, play the race card all you want. It's all you got and you're going 'all-in'. I'm cool with that.

At the same time though, you also need to be cool with the fact that all you've done is diminish your position, and extinguish the validity of your opinion. Now move aside, twiddle your thumbs, and let the "citizens who actually care about the northern hemisphere" wax philosophically about what would make our continent better.

Y'dig????

(enter sarcastic laugh. We hope you've enjoyed this week's Saturday commentary, by The Northener)
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why does securing the border cost that much. You make it illegal to hire, rent, sell, give welfare to illegals, and if they go to the (emergency) hospital, deport them on release. It they commint any crime, deport them upon release from jail, or if found not guility of that crime, deport them after the trial.

If there is nothing here for them, they'll either go home or stay home.

That leaves are existing resourses to conbat drug runners and such. </div></div>


The REASON CARD. Well played, Sir. Should be played more often.
 
Re: Protecting the border

Sean-
Your 'saving' money theory was shot down back in the Prohibition days of our nation's history.

This isn't a plumbing problem where the proper valve shuts off the flow of drugs.

I am always amazed how 'simple' the wrong decisions are, in my lifetime, from commies to contras. From oil to taxes. Now a few decades of a war on drugs and so many think the pipeline can just be shut off.

There are a few huge reasons Canada doesn't have a serious drug problem. First your nation has 34 million or so people. That is about the same as California, or 10% of the United States.

You don't have the consumer base to draw a large drug problem to the frozen north. It is alot like being too small a town to justify a Walmart.

Second big reason is with a porous southern border you are not needed by the drug cartels. But if the southern border ever gets sealed up you are in for a shitload of trouble. You will be our next Mexico. You don't seem to understand the drug trade, your nation is just Mexico at a lower temp.

The drug lords will have no problem setting up shop in your country and using the northern border to attempt to satisfy American drug cravings.

Will be odd to see our American TV shows showing ruthless gangsters saying 'eh' at the end of their threat!
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It isn't a south to north thing, it is a suck hole drawing in as much of whatever the hole wants. Be it oil or drugs. Cocaine is the opium of today but with the tremendous success in Afganistan I can see Heroin Chic making a great come back.

With a new overseas connection I can see the pipeline coming through Canada.

Now I have nothing but love for my very blanc northern brothers but you aint seen shit until the southern border closes.

Not that I think any Bullshit machinegun wire mine death strip will stop drugs.

Americans get what they what, as long as people keep taking our IOUs or the gold card holds up.

Good Luck being the next transit nation.



Small
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Putting a half million troops on the border, would cost the tax payers like a billion dollars a week.

I am as frustrated by illegal immigration from Mexico as the next guy, but IMO someone who supports that kind of spending of taxpayer dollars just to keep Mexicans out of the country does so based purely on racism. </div></div>

Oh ... so you'd rather spend $60 BILLION a year on illegal immigrant health care and welfare here in the US? Think about what you're saying. THe average illegal immigrant drains more on the US economy than most people know.

Who pays for the $10,000 birth of a child to an illegal immigrant here in the US? Taxpayers do. Your argument holds no water. Sorry.

The problem lies with the 100k US farmers that support migratory work here in the US! Then the other 200K businesses that hire illegals without the proper documentation. If they can't work ... they go back home.
 
Re: Protecting the border

I always like the PBS response to illegal aliens. We have had 2 primary trauma hospitals close down here locally from illegal aliens taking advantage of not having to pay for anything from trauma to anchor babies. Have a local man who is a millionaire in Mexico who took his daughter to Mercy hospital here in San Diego because of complications. She was instructed how to answer the typical questions and got here $300k delivery for free.
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You would not believe the outbreaks of disease that have for the most part been cured here in America that have had a resurgance like whooping cough and Thousands carry head lice, leprosy, tuberculosis and hepatitis A, B, and C. Locally we have had breakouts of TB that have closed schools. It is more than just money when you have to send YOUR child to the hospital for testing.
 
Re: Protecting the border

We have immigration laws on the books now that the Federal Gov. refuses to enforce and some states have sanctuary cities where illegal's can live and suck the local tax payers dry. Americans have to live by the letter of the law or face the consequences, so why do we have to pay for foreigners to break our laws. North Carolina spends about 2 Billion dollars a year on illegal's. Someone tell me why American tax payers have to pay for others to commit crimes that we would be put in jail for? My sister was informed about a year ago by the Duplin County Sheriff's dept. about attending meetings about how to deal with local Mexican gangs and to avoid being killed by these assholes. I'm getting pretty old now but something just ain't right about this crap.
 
Re: Protecting the border

We need to just shut the borders down and fix our own gov. I don't care if your Mexican, Canadian,Indian or what ever. Fix us first.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 0481</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We need to just shut the borders down and fix our own gov. I don't care if your Mexican, Canadian,Indian or what ever. Fix us first. </div></div>

It's not going to happen anytime soon. At least not while our government is figuring out how to raise the spending limit, and stretch our economy even thinner.

From where I stand, it appears that we would be better off in allowing this "House of Cards" to fall, and rebuilding with a more stable form of currency and banking. I don't know ... maybe ... by using a form of currency that is actually worth something, and backed by a liquid asset. Our form of fiat currency is not worth the paper it's printed on.

As long as the US government is running around like an irresponsible renter or rent day, borrowing from whomever they can to keep them afloat for one more month, we need to face the music and allow our current form of currency to play itself out. However that might happen. Until then ... we are going to have meaningless laws on the books that are unenforced by anyone, and designed to only appease the current legislators, whomever they may be at the time.

Sorry for the rant, but a lot of people do not realize how complex this problem is. There is no simple fix.
 
Re: Protecting the border

Its funny that this topic came up today, my girl and I were just talking about this, check out the picture. I found it while I was looking through google earth. This just absolutely friggin amazing. I thought my head was going to explode when I seen this. next we will provide box lunches for them, my tax dollars at work. WATER
 
Re: Protecting the border

I just think that we should have a pretty badass fence on the border... Then a dead-zone minefield of 15 yards on our side of the fence... If they make it beyond that 15 yards, it's open season to shoot any and every soul who crosses!!!

Illegal crossings of men, women, and child... SHOT DEAD!!!

I don't understand people
 
Re: Protecting the border

I am on the way to the range before it can fry an egg so this will be quick-

Perceived invasion. Like anything else what many people believe is the truth is often times clouded by biased. The invasion is roughly 10% of out total population... not much of an invasion by military standards.

Closed hospitals in San Diego county. So got any names of these hospitals? I found one. Overall ALL urban hospitals are closing treatment centers (30%) BUT enlarging the remainder.

San Diego county has closed 20% of its treatment centers but increased total beds by 70% according to Dr. Bruce Haynes, Director of EMS San Diego County.

60 Billion in immigrant costs? Odd number considering NO ONE can do better than estimate. Here are so harder numbers total medicare cost- 599 billion or 10 times what the estimated cost of immigrants. Immigrants cost us 1/3 the cost of Iraq and Afganistan.

North Carolina spents 72.4 billion at the state and local level. FAIR no friend of immigrants estimates the cost of immigrants to North Carolina at 1.3 Billion. Not exactly a suck em dry scenerio. UNC estimates the immigrants add 9.2 billion to the local economy. So you could say North Carolina is spending money to make money, not unlike the whoring it did to lure auto and chicken plants to the state. One fun fact about the immigrant problem- roughly 2% of the population in the glorious tarheel state is estimated to be illegal.

So all rhetoric aside, the 'problem' is alot smaller than 90% of what is a real issue. 2% of the state's population that actually adds to the economy. A national trend of urban hospital consolidations but increased capacity. And 10% of the medicare budget is seen as the problem?

Well gotta get moving to beat the 'kids' to the range, got to set-up.

You all try and stay cool today.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Illegal crossings of men, women, and child... SHOT DEAD!!!
</div></div>

I get what you're saying and I think if we were to do such a thing it wouldn't be a problem anymore but I couldn't shoot somebody simply seeking money/better life for their family. Yeah, they're going about it the wrong way but the right avenues aren't available to them. If I were in the same situation you can bet your ass I would be doing the same things for my family. You can bet your life that I would take advantage of some stupid ass country that is willing to pay for everything, not hold me responsible for any criminal acts, and allow me to get work and send money home to my family, that's a no brainer. In short, it's our fault the situation exists, they are simply exploiting our collective stupidity.

The joe blow illegals don''t really bug me (see above) it's the people (mostly U.S. citizens) who believe they have an inherent right to be here that piss me off.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I couldn't shoot somebody simply seeking money/better life for their family. Yeah, they're going about it the wrong way but the right avenues aren't available to them. </div></div>

So, you won't shoot me if I break into your house to steal stuff? I really just need the money for a better life for my family.
Just curious.

The Mexican government has been using the USA as a safety valve for decades. Instead of fixing their country, they encourage people to leave and become our problem. Our southern border is a sieve, through which flow thousands of illegals, tons of drugs, countless weapons, and GOK what else. The violence is being brought in as well, shades of Pancho Villa.
One of the first duties of our federal government is to secure our borders, and the current state of affairs has been the status quo for so long it's pretty much permanent. Mark my words: At some point, something VERY BAD will slip through the border, and things will change in ways we can't imagine.



1911fan
 
Re: Protecting the border

I think we as a nation have a lot of problems, this is one of them, and that for despite whatever reasons we choose to admit ot deny it, it's a real one.

So let's all point our fingers, gush our rhatoric, and watch it continue to escalate while we all chase our tails in righteous indignation instead of solving it.

This country has so many problems it doesn't even know which one to start with, so of ocourse we tackle them all at once. Best way I know of to assure monumental failure.

As we are, we're essentially hopeless. The horse is dead, quit beating it please...

Like the security of our border, topics like this one have become a classic SH joke.

...Would the last one out please turn off the lights.

Ta..!
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I couldn't shoot somebody simply seeking money/better life for their family. Yeah, they're going about it the wrong way but the right avenues aren't available to them. </div></div>

So, you won't shoot me if I break into your house to steal stuff? I really just need the money for a better life for my family.
Just curious.

The Mexican government has been using the USA as a safety valve for decades. Instead of fixing their country, they encourage people to leave and become our problem. Our southern border is a sieve, through which flow thousands of illegals, tons of drugs, countless weapons, and GOK what else. The violence is being brought in as well, shades of Pancho Villa.
One of the first duties of our federal government is to secure our borders, and the current state of affairs has been the status quo for so long it's pretty much permanent. Mark my words: At some point, something VERY BAD will slip through the border, and things will change in ways we can't imagine.



1911fan </div></div>

I agree. Anyone who breaks into a home to steal for their family either 'A' needs serious mental evaluation, or 'B' is only playing the 'Family' card for sympathy with the media when they get caught.

However, I can see the arguments on both sides of the coin. Steal from a building, car, or structure other than my home .... OK. I can see the logic in that. Break into my home, and place my wife and children in fear of their lives .... NOT OK. Bringing on the pain is the only way to teach this person a lesson. Granted, unless I see a weapon, I will not shoot to kill, but I WILL shoot to wound!
wink.gif
The thief would be walking with a limp for the rest of their lives that reminded them of their stupid choice. Then again ... that's if I decided not to let the German Shepherds at them. If that was the case ... all bets are off.
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Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The joe blow illegals don''t really bug me (see above) it's the people (mostly U.S. citizens) who believe they have an inherent right to be here that piss me off. </div></div>

What does this mean?
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get what you're saying and I think if we were to do such a thing it wouldn't be a problem anymore but I couldn't shoot somebody simply seeking money/better life for their family. Yeah, they're going about it the wrong way but the right avenues aren't available to them. </div></div>

So, you won't shoot me if I break into your house to steal stuff? I really just need the money for a better life for my family.
Just curious.


1911fan </div></div>

If you break in because your family is starving and you need bread then I'll give you bread (after I beat your ass to a pulp) but if you break in wanting a new T.V. than you're leaving a little heavier what with all the lead in your belly. The difference is relative to the degree of need (granted it's pretty far-fetched to think I'd get the opportunity to ask you your intent). See, I think most people crossing over are doing so to support their families back home which I don't approve of but I don't think they deserve to die because of that. I do however, support the killing of drug runners and other such degenerates. Think of it in terms of what ends you would be willing to go to for your family. I'd bet that if the situation was reversed and you were an out of work/no possible way of supporting your family guys and lived in Mexico you would be one of the guys crossing over illegally... right?
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The joe blow illegals don''t really bug me (see above) it's the people (mostly U.S. citizens) who believe they have an inherent right to be here that piss me off. </div></div>

What does this mean? </div></div>

I'm referencing to the people here in the U.S. who tend to be citizens (bleeding heart types) who believe that Texas/NM/AZ/CA/etc. are occupied territories and that that section of the U.S. still belongs to Mexico and it doesn't stop at lunatic people, here's and ad that ran in Mexico and the lower parts of the U.S. by Absolute Vodka buttressing that same idea.

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Here's a flag that was put up over a U.S. post office by U.S. citizens protesting a Cali law that never passed that would have made it harder for illegals to find work:

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Mike, my point is that we are rotting from the inside as well as being invaded from the outside.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The Mexican government has been using the USA as a safety valve for decades. Instead of fixing their country, they encourage people to leave and become our problem. Our southern border is a sieve, through which flow thousands of illegals, tons of drugs, countless weapons, and GOK what else. </div></div>

Agreed, instead of fixing their own economy they rely on ours. I believe I heard that money transfers from the U.S. to Mexico are in the $billions per month. So that's money we're paying Mexicans for work done here that they turn around and wire back to their families in Mexico. This means we are hemorrhaging money to Mexico and as such propping up their economy.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get what you're saying and I think if we were to do such a thing it wouldn't be a problem anymore but I couldn't shoot somebody simply seeking money/better life for their family. Yeah, they're going about it the wrong way but the right avenues aren't available to them. </div></div>

So, you won't shoot me if I break into your house to steal stuff? I really just need the money for a better life for my family.
Just curious.


1911fan </div></div>

If you break in because your family is starving and you need bread then I'll give you bread (after I beat your ass to a pulp) but if you break in wanting a new T.V. than you're leaving a little heavier what with all the lead in your belly. </div></div>

If someone breaks into my house ive got to assume they are wishing to steal my valuables, and or harm me. If they came in wanting bread, id probably kick them to the curb, literally. There are places to get food, its called a soup kitchen, not my house.
 
Re: Protecting the border

It's not even the hard working illegals that really get to me.

It's the habitual criminals that commit crimes under random identities, and get away with it.

Here locally, there was a story where one individual had been arrested 17 times in the past 8 years. Each time was a drinking related offense, and at each booking he had a different i.d. with a new name.

This individual was handed over to ICE and deported a total of 16 times, but still came back for more. How do you deal with that? He was/is a persistent little sh!t. It is almost like it was a game to him.
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not even the hard working illegals that really get to me.

It's the habitual criminals that commit crimes under random identities, and get away with it.</div></div>


+1 on that!
 
Re: Protecting the border

First what needs to be done, is anyone caught hiring an illegal, needs to be fined 10mill per illegal, and put in prison for 20years for each offense, all properties seized by the county. Make it so financially wrenching on them if they are caught hiring illegals that it is actually a deterrent. Next, as much as I hate to say it, legalize drugs (I know this is not popular and I am not a leftie hippie by any stretch of the imagination), it will take a lot of money out of the drug business making it unprofitable for them. 3rd, send reserve troops to the border for the time that they are supposed to serve each year. Let them train down there. Give the loose roe, and keep the media OUT of it.

When illegals are caught here, we need to send them to Antartica, let them swim back from there!
 
Re: Protecting the border

ubet, even though I'm a Canuckian, I'd nominate you for world Emperor, simply due to your use of logic and reality!!!!
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First what needs to be done, is anyone caught hiring an illegal, needs to be fined 10mill per illegal, and put in prison for 20years for each offense, all properties seized by the county. Make it so financially wrenching on them if they are caught hiring illegals that it is actually a deterrent. Next, as much as I hate to say it, legalize drugs (I know this is not popular and I am not a leftie hippie by any stretch of the imagination), it will take a lot of money out of the drug business making it unprofitable for them. 3rd, send reserve troops to the border for the time that they are supposed to serve each year. Let them train down there. Give the loose roe, and keep the media OUT of it.

When illegals are caught here, we need to send them to Antartica, let them swim back from there! </div></div>

+several
 
Re: Protecting the border

So if we make dope legal then we don't have anything to be contrite about regarding the damage we've done to Mexico, and points south, by our insatiable demand for narcotics, weed and the cheap labor needed to keep our kids on a fast track to a law degree (or name your white collar career)? No...

The border needs to be secured as a matter of law enforcement and national integrity. No nation exists without a regulated border: even the biggest loud mouth on the subject of "the cruel U.S immigration policies", i.e., Mexico! Their army is sure as fuck on both of their borders, (North and south) and often north of ours!

As to this horse shit about killing them, honestly...The vast majority are coming here to work and better themselves. It's really is as simple as that. Ask yourselves what you would do with a family to support and no options to do so: Right across the border is a nation so rife with opportunity that is, ironically, deemed beneath the dignity of huge numbers of Americans, yet looks like a gold mine to them.

Say what you will about fair wages for labor, no matter what the industry or service, the fact is all people seek to pay less, not more. The corollary of that is that all people seek to sell for more rather than less. Thus, the U.S. will always be a magnet to the people of less developed (And un-Free!) nations as long as we remain the productive engine of commerce we have always been.

A more pragmatic approach than the nonsense about minefields and shooting galleries would be to direct a workable strategy targeting the many cause of this problem.

1)Attack the glorification of drug use by Hollywood, music performers and others through ridicule and boycotting the users and their advocates.

2)Shame the Mexican upper class for their embarrassing practices of nepotism and waste of resources that clearly rival those of the U.S. Why are they so unproductive? They have nearly all the same natural resources as we do and as much coastline! Clearly their people are unafraid of work!

3) Condemn those in the U.S. who exploit the wave of illegal immigration from Mexico who see them as an additional, permanent, monolithic voting bloc, certain to vote for one political party. Those who seek a cheap labor supply will find it from whatever nation they come from but the chief reason for encouraging the wave of Mexican illegals is to bolster one party. Enough said.

4) Punish those that exploit the labor market by encouraging illegal immigration to keep their expenses down while frustrating any chance for domestic workers to obtain higher wages. A willingness of consumers to to pay more for native labor would help!

This kind of market manipulation gets called many things when corporations and legislators whine about it; often leading to tariffs and trade sanctions. Instead, the native worker is expected to suck it up and is called a racist if he doesn't.

5) Perhaps this last seems a little trivial, but something along the lines of the Magnificent 7 (Or the 7 Samurai for the purists!) is in order. As the same ruling class pussies in Mexico deny their peasants the right to defend themselves as our know it all betters would do here, their lack of a constitutional right to do so has largely contributed to the lawlessness there. It's time that changed.

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There is more of course that needs to be done but lazy bromides or murderous sloganeering just looks vindictive and stupid.

The answer doesn't lie in standing shoulder to shoulder at our border. It is however very much dependent on taking a long view, looking at the glass as half full, applying numerous tactics toward a guiding strategy, remembering that the majority of these people are friendly to us and then seriously fucking with those who are not in <span style="font-weight: bold">their</span> own back yards.

 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First what needs to be done, is anyone caught hiring an illegal, needs to be fined 10mill per illegal, and put in prison for 20years for each offense, all properties seized by the county. Make it so financially wrenching on them if they are caught hiring illegals that it is actually a deterrent. Next, as much as I hate to say it, legalize drugs (I know this is not popular and I am not a leftie hippie by any stretch of the imagination), it will take a lot of money out of the drug business making it unprofitable for them. 3rd, send reserve troops to the border for the time that they are supposed to serve each year. Let them train down there. Give the loose roe, and keep the media OUT of it.

When illegals are caught here, we need to send them to Antartica, let them swim back from there! </div></div>

The problem isn't that simple (obviously you already know that) and it's really not the responsibility of the employers to as a matter of de facto enforcement to police/enforce the law, especially since the law already exists and isn't being enforced by those who would be prosecuting the employers in your scenario. It's not the employers fault they are here and employers can't be responsible for somebody using fake identification.

Baring a major movement to actually physically block illegals from crossing we as a nation will need significant overhauls to the way we not only hire but also the way we trade with Mexico i.e. NAFTA which is the driving force behind much of the illegal/legal immigration from Mexico....
 
Re: Protecting the border

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am on the way to the range before it can fry an egg so this will be quick-

Perceived invasion. Like anything else what many people believe is the truth is often times clouded by biased. The invasion is roughly 10% of out total population... not much of an invasion by military standards.

Closed hospitals in San Diego county. So got any names of these hospitals? I found one. Overall ALL urban hospitals are closing treatment centers (30%) BUT enlarging the remainder.

San Diego county has closed 20% of its treatment centers but increased total beds by 70% according to Dr. Bruce Haynes, Director of EMS San Diego County.

60 Billion in immigrant costs? Odd number considering NO ONE can do better than estimate. Here are so harder numbers total medicare cost- 599 billion or 10 times what the estimated cost of immigrants. Immigrants cost us 1/3 the cost of Iraq and Afganistan.

North Carolina spents 72.4 billion at the state and local level. FAIR no friend of immigrants estimates the cost of immigrants to North Carolina at 1.3 Billion. Not exactly a suck em dry scenerio. UNC estimates the immigrants add 9.2 billion to the local economy. So you could say North Carolina is spending money to make money, not unlike the whoring it did to lure auto and chicken plants to the state. One fun fact about the immigrant problem- roughly 2% of the population in the glorious tarheel state is estimated to be illegal.

So all rhetoric aside, the 'problem' is alot smaller than 90% of what is a real issue. 2% of the state's population that actually adds to the economy. A national trend of urban hospital consolidations but increased capacity. And 10% of the medicare budget is seen as the problem?

Well gotta get moving to beat the 'kids' to the range, got to set-up.

You all try and stay cool today.</div></div>

Ask an you shall receive.
Local hospital closed because it was the farthest east trauma hospital. Had visited many times. Here is a current google maps image of it today. Empty building and a dirt lot were the larger hospital used to stand. It was one of only a few hospitals that had a helo landing area. Having a candy stiper as a sister (no not a stripper) she would volonteer at this hospital and another local one. It was closed because of the millions of dollars spent on illegal aliens that hurt themselves crossing from borders on San Diego county.
Link to map
Link to map of El Cajon Valley hospital AKA Scripps Memorial Hospital.
Street view of the last building standing. Used to be for reovering patients next to the dirt lot that used to be a full trauma hospital.
Google street view.
Calexico hospital also closed and only minutes from the border...
So you were saying?
 
Re: Protecting the border

HB, Its not much more difficult than that. It is the employers responsibility to know who they are hiring. We can block them militarily, but we need to take the incentive away from them coming here too. Its a double edged sword. Ok did something similar, and you know what, the illegals left.