• The site has been updated!

    If you see any bugs, please report them in this thread.

    VIEW THREAD

PVA 212 Seneca

Schw15

Longrange
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    Just lower velocity than planned, thought and what others said. When i tried the hammers my local smith did to and he was 150 slower with a light bullet before pressure but his sons rifle did great with speed. Seems hit or miss. Im not saying im a pro just thought id throw out my experience. I would still run solids if i needed too. On other forums they talk about badlands bullets pressure out with way light charges havent tried them yet.
     

    NamibHunter

    Desert hunter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 26, 2018
    896
    423
    This is probably relevant:


    The trick seems to be to treat these mono bullets (with short bearing surface) as if they are HBN coated, so load higher (if you have spare case capacity when the bullet sits that deep), or use a powder with a slightly faster burn rate.

    So try the powders that give good speed for bullets 10 or 15 grains lighter?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: jasent

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Just lower velocity than planned, thought and what others said. When i tried the hammers my local smith did to and he was 150 slower with a light bullet before pressure but his sons rifle did great with speed. Seems hit or miss. Im not saying im a pro just thought id throw out my experience. I would still run solids if i needed too. On other forums they talk about badlands bullets pressure out with way light charges havent tried them yet.
    I haven’t seen that with badlands.

    I was able to get 285’s into the low 3000’s easy and 3100 with pressure.
    I believe Frank at bartlein said you definitely don’t want a tight bore and a looser bore (within tolerance) is optimal for solids

    @jasent I believe found hat out with his 37XC.
    I believe a lot of pressure issues seen with solids are in fact bore issues.
    Then there’s those with a loose bore-throw the powder at it!
    Seems they are less tolerant than cup/core.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: jasent and Schw15

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    I haven’t seen that with badlands.

    I was able to get 285’s into the low 3000’s easy and 3100 with pressure.
    I believe Frank at bartlein said you definitely don’t want a tight bore and a looser bore (within tolerance) is optimal for solids

    @jasent I believe found hat out with his 37XC.
    I believe a lot of pressure issues seen with solids are in fact bore issues.
    Then there’s those with a loose bore-throw the powder at it!
    Seems they are less tolerant than cup/core.
    Thats what im trying to get at hit or miss with them. Cup and core dont have to worry. I really like solids though there all the same and great bc. But give headaches sometimes
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Thats what im trying to get at hit or miss with them. Cup and core dont have to worry. I really like solids though there all the same and great bc. But give headaches sometimes
    The top quality barrel guys measure every barrel
    Ask for a loose one.
     

    357Max

    Supporter
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Sep 11, 2019
    964
    1,132
    Marylandistan
    Been following this with interest.
    Built a 25SST, but traded it before doing anything.
    Now I’ve got a long action in the works. Xylo, Archimedes & settled on 28 Sherman. Just need to order a Barrel.

    You can also just ask whoever is chambering your barrel to save & send you the small drop they cut off.
    I did this for the 25SST from LRI.

    Not sure about PVA, but Warner will measure your drop & tweak the mono size to perfectly match the bore. Easy to just +- a couple .0001’s with cnc’d mono’s.

    There was an old, but very good thread (might have been Jim Boatrights) that discussed drilling the back of mono’s to enable them to obturate to the bore/seal better.
    Cavity back bullets does this as standard.

    Drilling the back won’t fix a tight bore so tuning to actual bore size is the better choice.

    It’d be nice if PVA or other Mono makers sold load development packs that included +- on size maybe a .0004 range.

    I suspect size matching on these is as important as jump if not more so.
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    I wonder if the pay off is better with solids? With the hit or miss stuff? I know bc are great
     

    b6graham

    MMPRL
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 29, 2014
    5,770
    4,771
    Boston
    Id be curious to see the comparisons between a CE Lazer which seems to be pretty average BC wise and something like a PVA which seems to push the extreme limits for whats possible with BC
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    I wonder if the pay off is better with solids? With the hit or miss stuff? I know bc are great

    Being able to dial les than 14 mils at a mile is awfully nice.
    It takes a lot to get a 338 a tip to do that and I don’t have to worry about them blowing up.
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Id be curious to see the comparisons between a CE Lazer which seems to be pretty average BC wise and something like a PVA which seems to push the extreme limits for whats possible with BC
    I’ll try to find the article but some thing the lower BC for size/weight solids can have an advantage with subsonic stabilization
     
    • Like
    Reactions: b6graham

    brianf

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 8, 2010
    4,097
    4,506
    44
    NY
    I started a thread about that a little while ago

    most of the feedback was not not positive in general, but truthfully I don’t think guys put enough solids down range

    I’d give good odds that most buy a box of 50 and load and shoot 20 then call it quits.

    I would think coatings and less bearing surface would push them reallllly fast, getting the most out of the bc




    Also curious if anybody has used HBN to speed up the soli
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    Id be curious to see the comparisons between a CE Lazer which seems to be pretty average BC wise and something like a PVA which seems to push the extreme limits for whats possible with BC
    Ive shot a few mainly the hunting line and bc were close not much difference. But i heard other people saying on some of the bullets the bc wasnt even close
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    Being able to dial les than 14 mils at a mile is awfully nice.
    It takes a lot to get a 338 a tip to do that and I don’t have to worry about them blowing up.
    Im about to order a new barrel for my nuke you have me thinking lol my buddy is trying the 198 pva in a 30 sherman but he hadnt made it to far
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Im about to order a new barrel for my nuke you have me thinking lol my buddy is trying the 198 pva in a 30 sherman but he hadnt made it to far
    I always wanted to try solids in my 7mm but it kinda seems the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.
    In a 338 or bigger things seem to really get interesting.
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    I always wanted to try solids in my 7mm but it kinda seems the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.
    In a 338 or bigger things seem to really get interesting.
    Yeah the solids seem better from 30 cal up. Was thinking another 7mm but just maybe a 30 or 338 but i can only shoot to 2100 yards
     

    NamibHunter

    Desert hunter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 26, 2018
    896
    423
    I always wanted to try solids in my 7mm but it kinda seems the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.
    In a 338 or bigger things seem to really get interesting.
    I’ll try to find the article but some thing the lower BC for size/weight solids can have an advantage with subsonic stabilization

    Could be the reason why the Cutting Edge Lazer is so dominant in ELR competitions. Their BCs are good - similar or slightly better than A-tips, but not really stellar. Yet almost everybody uses them.
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Could be the reason why the Cutting Edge Lazer is so dominant in ELR competitions. Their BCs are good - similar or slightly better than A-tips, but not really stellar. Yet almost everybody uses them.
    Could also be a “what the pros use” situation.


    Quite honestly the A-tips were kinda disappointing for the 7mm and 338
     
    • Like
    Reactions: jasent

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Anything bullet hornady has been. Its a shame too
    😂
    I remember your experiment!
    F7F3DDAE-5B15-40C4-8121-4047B0BD626F.gif
     

    b6graham

    MMPRL
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 29, 2014
    5,770
    4,771
    Boston
    Could be the reason why the Cutting Edge Lazer is so dominant in ELR competitions. Their BCs are good - similar or slightly better than A-tips, but not really stellar. Yet almost everybody uses them.
    this is what i emant with my comment

    the CE Lazer def doesnt approach the crazy BC numbers of some solids and is made/shaped in a way that more closely mimics the easy tuning of cup and core bullets
     

    brianf

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 8, 2010
    4,097
    4,506
    44
    NY
    Speaking of “crazy” bc

    have outside people verified those crazy BC’s or it’s all “manufacturers verified”?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Steel head

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    The badlands 265 seems basically dead on.
    I use a .910 G1 with almost exactly the speed my magnetospeed speed gives me.

    The 285 was a bit down for me but people running 200-300 faster than me are at or slightly above.
    I’ve ordered a faster twist barrel for the 285’s.
    The 265’s seem to be quite happy in a 1-8.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: NamibHunter

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    The badlands 265 seems basically dead on.
    I use a .910 G1 with almost exactly the speed my magnetospeed speed gives me.

    The 285 was a bit down for me but people running 200-300 faster than me are at or slightly above.
    I’ve ordered a faster twist barrel for the 285’s.
    The 265’s seem to be quite happy in a 1-8.
    I might of missed it what 338 are you running?
     

    brianf

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 8, 2010
    4,097
    4,506
    44
    NY
    From what you’ve seen accuracy wise,

    it seems that most people can get to around .7-1.0 moa at 100 on the 30 cal and up.

    do you see that holding true at distance as well…1 moa the while

    I’m wondering if the pure accuracy might not be there but the great bc allows for a larger margin or error in ranging and wind calls.

    I’m only talking supersonic..no trans sonic stuff

    thanks
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    From what you’ve seen accuracy wise,

    it seems that most people can get to around .7-1.0 moa at 100 on the 30 cal and up.

    do you see that holding true at distance as well…1 moa the while

    I’m wondering if the pure accuracy might not be there but the great bc allows for a larger margin or error in ranging and wind calls.

    I’m only talking supersonic..no trans sonic stuff

    thanks
    I get an honest 5/8 with the few groups I’ve shot and both my 2000 targets are sub moa and I consistently hit both.

    In pristine conditions I put 5 shots in a row on a 24”x 24”
    at 2990

    My 7 saum shoots better groups with my beloved 190LRHT (and it really is quite fun at 2000) and my 338 makes it noticeably easier to hit the 2000 and further targets still.

    My poor 7 saum has been staying home collecting dust :(since I got the 338:)
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    I get an honest 5/8 with the few groups I’ve shot and both my 2000 targets are sub moa and I consistently hit both.

    In pristine conditions I put 5 shots in a row on a 24”x 24”
    at 2990

    My 7 saum shoots better groups with my beloved 190LRHT (and it really is quite fun at 2000) and my 338 makes it noticeably easier to hit the 2000 and further targets still.
    Do you run the 338 edge in your nuke? Single or mag fed?
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    It’s 4.25” long,,,,,,,in a short action 😂
    Haha awesome!!!! The only downfall is the price on solids and alot of ranges dont even allow them. Not saying i shoot more than anyone but from september til a few weeks ago i put 1000 rounds down range maybe more that adds up haha the seirra are hard to beat money wise
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    14,764
    39,947
    Washington
    Haha awesome!!!! The only downfall is the price on solids and alot of ranges dont even allow them. Not saying i shoot more than anyone but from september til a few weeks ago i put 1000 rounds down range maybe more that adds up haha the seirra are hard to beat money wise
    Lol
    My range has no such restrictions
    Hell I could shoot naked if I wanted to.

    I still love my Berger and SmK’s.
    Solids aren’t for everyone, with current prices badlands aren’t that far from 338 Berger and A-tip prices and the performance is well worth the extra price.
     

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    Lol
    My range has no such restrictions
    Hell I could shoot naked if I wanted to.

    I still love my Berger and SmK’s.
    Solids aren’t for everyone, with current prices badlands aren’t that far from 338 Berger and A-tip prices and the performance is well worth the extra price.
    Im in the middle of getting another barrel hard to pass the badlands with a 338 edge though if i can find brass and dies.
     

    NamibHunter

    Desert hunter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 26, 2018
    896
    423
    Waiting for a 28” 300 WSM barrel with a 7 twist (to fit in a short action Curtis, but still single feed). Will try 241 Seneca. Astronomical BC (over 1.0, similar to the best 375 bullets), with a claimed G7 BC of well over 0.5.

    Two hide members who shoot the 241 Seneca out to 1,500 plus confirmed via PM that the claimed BC appears to be quite close.

    I know Josh tested the [Edit:] Flatline (not Seneca) bullets at the Hornady test range using their long range radar, and that Hornady includes the custom drag curve they measured at their range in the 4DOF ballistic database. You have to believe that Hornady would not include such an exceptionally drag curve from a third party bullet maker, unless they saw the data with their own eyes. Hope he can go the same path with the 241 gn Seneca, and get a third party to confirm drag curve and drop.

    I will probably know in 3-4 months when the barrel arrives.
     
    Last edited:

    Schw15

    Longrange
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2019
    2,412
    376
    Colorado
    Waiting for a 28” 300 WSM barrel with a 7 twist (to fit in a short action Curtis, but still single feed). Will try 241 Seneca. Astronomical BC (over 1.0, similar to the best 375 bullets), with a claimed G7 BC of well over 0.5.

    Two hide members who shoot the 241 Seneca out to 1,500 plus confirmed via PM that the claimed BC appears to be quite close.

    I know Josh tested the Seneca bullets at the Hornady test range using their long range radar, and that Hornady includes the custom drag curve they measured at their range in the 4DOF ballistic database. You have to believe that Hornady would not include such an exceptionally drag curve from a third party bullet maker, unless they saw the data with their own eyes.

    I will know in 3-4 months when the barrel arrives
    Very tempting these new solids. That 198 or even 212. Waiting on my buddy to test the 198
     

    Dogtown

    Ke = (mv^2)/2
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 21, 2007
    3,959
    573
    CONUS
    I'm finalizing a .300NM load with the 212s and expect to test them at distance next month. So far I'm really impressed. But then I noticed there's a 241gr that requires at least a 1:7 twist and when I crunched some numbers and it looks like it wouldn't be hard to get those up to 3000fps, I'm thinking it's time to order a faster barrel.

    1624152618033.png


    Supersonic @ 250' AGL out to 2800 yards is bonkers!
     
    • Like
    Reactions: NamibHunter

    brianf

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 8, 2010
    4,097
    4,506
    44
    NY
    I know someone who is shooting the 198 Seneca at 3100 through a 300 Norma (not pushing at all) and said bc is just about spot on out to 1k so far.

    So it’s seems the PVA bc is pretty good
     
    • Like
    Reactions: NamibHunter

    NamibHunter

    Desert hunter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 26, 2018
    896
    423
    I'm finalizing a .300NM load with the 212s and expect to test them at distance next month. So far I'm really impressed. But then I noticed there's a 241gr that requires at least a 1:7 twist and when I crunched some numbers and it looks like it wouldn't be hard to get those up to 3000fps, I'm thinking it's time to order a faster barrel.

    View attachment 7650904

    Supersonic @ 250' AGL out to 2800 yards is bonkers!

    I know the PVA guys used a 7 twist 300 WSM rifle to test their Seneca 241 gn bullet and got to 2800 fps from a 26” barrel, probably stepping on the gas pedal, but all I am hoping for is 2750 fps from a 28” barrel, with Norma brass that survives 5-6 reloads. We shall see about brass life! That might get expensive too.

    The load manuals show that the much larger Norma Magnum case does 250-300 fps more than the very short 300 WSM (95 gn of powder vs only 65 g) for the 220 projectiles. For the 241 Seneca, you should get close to 2900 fps with a 24” barrel, and close to 3000 fps with a 28” barrel.

    I guess the barrel makers will sell you a 32” barrel for a premium - if you are willing to wait a year. That should be good for 3100 fps.

    It seems that the achievable speed of these solid copper bullets are very sensitive to the exact bore diameter of the barrel. Worth having a discussion with the barrel maker about that…
     
    Last edited:

    Dogtown

    Ke = (mv^2)/2
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 21, 2007
    3,959
    573
    CONUS
    Yup, waiting a year is ok given that’s plenty of time to try to squeeze the most out of the 212s. I haven used 28” 1:8 barrels for .300NM, but would try a 32” 1:7 (or even 1:6) with the intent of trying to maximize the 241s. For comparison my current ELR barrel is a 36” .338LM Improved 40.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: NamibHunter

    Dogtown

    Ke = (mv^2)/2
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 21, 2007
    3,959
    573
    CONUS
    I have competed in the past and plan to again in the future, but for the past year or so (I was out with cancer for several years) it's just been shooting steel at distance.