The problem with trucks and SUVs is serious understeer. I seriously doubt you'll see oversteer going hard into a corner.
- Thread starter Mike_Honcho
- Start date
The problem with trucks and SUVs is serious understeer. I seriously doubt you'll see oversteer going hard into a corner.
To answer your question. They can go much much faster....
Getting out of my pick up or Expedition and into the R8 thats tuned... fuck yeah fun times... Lamborghini engine and AWD
Not pure like the Porsche but those were never my thing.
Getting out of my pick up or Expedition and into the R8 thats tuned... fuck yeah fun times... Lamborghini engine and AWD
Not pure like the Porsche but those were never my thing.
I happen to live at one end of a state highway (36) and in the 120 miles across it there isn't any straight stretch longer than probably 1/4-1/3 mile long, just one curve into another, up and down mountains. It takes about 3 hours to cross and has VERY little traffic and ZERO law enforcement (almost). For years I drove it in tuna boats and minivan family rigs until the kids moved out then we got a MINI COOPER S turbo manual. That was the most fun car to drive on that road! After 80,000 miles we sold it and got a Mustang G/T, 465 h/p, manual. Nowhere near as much fun.
Yes - and even though all of us untrained folks think we're planning a head and tracking the corner well in front of us - its a pig and people get late and then mash the brake and really have some fun.
Even with a lifeflite - you're 1.5 - 2 hours from an ER room out there....
I did Walmartkhana in my wife’s 2018 4Runner last week in the great blizzard of Texas last week. I’m pretty much a pro drifter now.
on a related note, when I push the trac off button it’s really irritating when the computer still says no to throttle input. If I ask for 5500 rippems I want them all right now not in 5 seconds after you asked me if I was serious.
on a related note, when I push the trac off button it’s really irritating when the computer still says no to throttle input. If I ask for 5500 rippems I want them all right now not in 5 seconds after you asked me if I was serious.
- Nov 3, 2010
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Unfortunately, this is not always true. While putting 70% of the vehicle weight over the front wheels tends to cause understeer, moving the CoG rearward and upwards with cargo or passengers reduces understeer margin. The stiff rear spring rates required to support such loads also reduces understeer margin. And then there are the effects of having a solid rear axle bouncing around due to pavement defects. So the handling dynamics can go from a hard push to a surprising snap spin without much warning. And if such a vehicle leaves the road while sideways, it's probably going for a tumble.
There are reasons that SUVs and pickups are over-represented in crash statistics; the above is certainly a contributing factor.
A few hours spent on wet and dry skidpads would go a long way to improving driver's ed in this country.
Toyota's traction control software sucks more than the usual.
IF you know what you’re doing, AND you have the skills, AND you have the equipment, THIS is what was possible... 30 years ago in 1990.
THE most amazing driver in the history of the world. Period.
Ayrton Senna Monaco GP:
THE most amazing driver in the history of the world. Period.
Ayrton Senna Monaco GP:
While you're right, engineering wise, hardly anyone on the street approaches that limit of snap oversteer in a pickup, and much less in an suv. The massive understeer that precedes it typically scares the shit out of those drivers as they see the ditch, guardrail, or road centerline rapidly approaching.
Those that find that snap oversteer are usually the hold my beer kind.
I'm just throwing out a few points here, to ensure that the topic is continuously 'rounded' and not 'one-dimensional'.
It doesn't matter what the brand/model of the vehicle (to start).... the first thing that matters is the tires themselves. What are THEY designed to do, and what condition are they in?
Next, road/track conditions. Are we talking 'dry' or is this including 'wet/snowy/icy' too? Next, are we talking about 'cleaned/swept' roads and tracks? Or is there debris/sand/gravel/salt on the road.
Next next we'll talk about a 'closed course' vs. an 'open road'. Seeing as closed courses are fenced off (mostly) the likelihood of wildlife on the road are very slim. How many have hit wildlife while driving? Were you planning for it?
Then, nextly we'll talk about other traffic on the road. How often have you come across people that weren't paying attention? Weren't adhering to the rules of the road? Broke down on the side of the road, or with a flat tire? How about broke down in the middle of the road? There are ALL KINDS of unintended and unexpected obstacles that 'can' be there, and more often that not, 'are' there.
I won't deny that I have 'done things' with both cars and bikes that shouldn't be done. I'm not saying that I'm perfect. What I AM saying though, is that my life has been changed by someone doing exactly this type of thing and I am the one who had to spend months in a hospital and then a year later, start learning how to walk again. And I get to carry and be reminded of all the consolation prizes I've been given, each and every day.
There's one particular Hair-Pin turn whilst going through the Pine Pass in Northern B.C. where the 100 km/h zone slows down to 30 km/h. I myself have rescued others that have gone off that road, down into the ravine and then into the river, because they 'thought they were better' through one reason/manner or another.
I'm not in any way saying "Don't do it". Not at all. What I am saying though, is "KNOW MORE of what you're doing." Plan, train, practice, and control. In a proper setting.
And the vast majority of what is to be 'controlled'????? your urges!
Ask any wrecker-operator, if you don't want to talk to anyone doing 'traffic duty' about mistakes and situations where their services were required. Take a wrecker operator for lunch and get him/her talking.
Know what you don't know.
It doesn't matter what the brand/model of the vehicle (to start).... the first thing that matters is the tires themselves. What are THEY designed to do, and what condition are they in?
Next, road/track conditions. Are we talking 'dry' or is this including 'wet/snowy/icy' too? Next, are we talking about 'cleaned/swept' roads and tracks? Or is there debris/sand/gravel/salt on the road.
Next next we'll talk about a 'closed course' vs. an 'open road'. Seeing as closed courses are fenced off (mostly) the likelihood of wildlife on the road are very slim. How many have hit wildlife while driving? Were you planning for it?
Then, nextly we'll talk about other traffic on the road. How often have you come across people that weren't paying attention? Weren't adhering to the rules of the road? Broke down on the side of the road, or with a flat tire? How about broke down in the middle of the road? There are ALL KINDS of unintended and unexpected obstacles that 'can' be there, and more often that not, 'are' there.
I won't deny that I have 'done things' with both cars and bikes that shouldn't be done. I'm not saying that I'm perfect. What I AM saying though, is that my life has been changed by someone doing exactly this type of thing and I am the one who had to spend months in a hospital and then a year later, start learning how to walk again. And I get to carry and be reminded of all the consolation prizes I've been given, each and every day.
There's one particular Hair-Pin turn whilst going through the Pine Pass in Northern B.C. where the 100 km/h zone slows down to 30 km/h. I myself have rescued others that have gone off that road, down into the ravine and then into the river, because they 'thought they were better' through one reason/manner or another.
I'm not in any way saying "Don't do it". Not at all. What I am saying though, is "KNOW MORE of what you're doing." Plan, train, practice, and control. In a proper setting.
And the vast majority of what is to be 'controlled'????? your urges!
Ask any wrecker-operator, if you don't want to talk to anyone doing 'traffic duty' about mistakes and situations where their services were required. Take a wrecker operator for lunch and get him/her talking.
Know what you don't know.
In actuality you can get anything to oversteer
it’s all about how you enter the corner.
As you start turning the wheel and backing off the brake the weight shifts around.
if your on a good line (and moving fast enough) you’ll feel the car/truck rotate, if feels like a controlled “float” not the back coming around.
Surprisingly almost every vehicle acts the same you just need to put in the right scenario for it to happen.
most understeer people feel is because they actually slowed down to much/to early/cranking on the steering wheel. And then they get on the gas.
when back on the gas the weight shifts to the rear. Giving traction on the rear wheels but making the front tires “light”.
so now you have the poor front tires trying to hold on with less weight pushing them into the pavement....here comes the curb lol.
Oh I get it. I could make my old Golf GTi step out on command.
Most people have no idea of what we're talking about and the auto makers build in understeer tendency in their plain vanilla cars. Worse now with stability control.
Yes and no. As a former HPDE instructor, I wasn't trying to make race car drivers out of everybody; because it's obvious when you get in a car and drive a few laps with anybody who's been out 1-3 times previously if they have any skills required to actually go faster. One of my best HPDE instructors I had was an actual race driver who routinely destroyed then new 996 GT3s in his old 72 RSR -simply wasn't a contest and another who was nationally known as a 356 racer. I've had a few other actual race drivers instruct too and yes, they always are trying to get you past your comfort zone. But then again, I don't believe necessarily pushing somebody so past their comfort zone they crash. That's self defeating.
Before one becomes a race car driver though, they have to at least be damn good at HPDE. It's a good training ground; but you have to seek out good instructors who actually race in NASA, PCA, SCCA. Most of the folks I hung around with all did SCCA and PCA racing and a few NASA. One guy was crew chief for Alex Job racing for a long time. So, it is possible...but you have to seek out that help.
You can keep the Hitlermobile, no matter the power, but I’d like to take her for a ride or 6.
I used to race a CBR, it was not the fastest but I always loved how well it handled. Here's the only pic of it that I have handy.
Fangio won championships with the most teams, in the most different cars.
Love it man! I’ve had about a half dozen CBR’s and just can’t see me throwing a leg over anything else.
Looks around to see what the "hold my beer" group drives; finds myself disagreeing with your "hardly anyone" assessment
In all seriousness, you are correct in that this is a relatively rare event, but when it happens in a truck or SUV, it's because someone was already in over his head, and it is unfortunately more likely to end in a rollover... and rollovers are really nasty (roughly 3% of all accidents but 30% of all fatalities - not the least of which since they tend to punish anyone not wearing a seatbelt). Requiring stability control for light vehicles went a long ways towards reducing the likelihood of these accidents; if the chassis tuning doesn't guarantee terminal understeer, then jamming on the outside front brake will ensure that the vehicle leaves the road nose-first and thus is more likely to stay upright.
Here's an interesting bit of commentary on "state of the art" SUV stability control:
Tested: 2021 Chevy Tahoe Z71 Goes Big Where It Counts
Chevy's redesigned Tahoe full-sizer has never been better. But trust us, it looks better in person.
www.caranddriver.com "Skidpad grip is Jeep Wrangler-like at 0.63 g, but we should note how we extracted that, err, performance. The only way to permanently disable the very protective stability-control system is to engage low range. In rear-drive mode, we couldn't get the truck to corner harder than about 0.44 g. This is a low enough threshold that we suspect some owners will encounter it on a cloverleaf."
Fuck that.
A few of my old mounts. Have since quit racing.
1988 Swift SE3 formula continental
2000 VanDiemen RF00 Formula continental
Highly modded Ex500 Ninja WERA clubman
Suzuki SV650 Wera lightweight twins
2007 Mazda MX5, my final race ride.
1988 Swift SE3 formula continental
Highly modded Ex500 Ninja WERA clubman
Suzuki SV650 Wera lightweight twins
2007 Mazda MX5, my final race ride.
“Critical speed” isn’t the speed which you crash or fly off the road. It’s a technical term describing the speed which 85% of traffic are traveling at or below, on that section of roadway. Its determined by survey, which is updated occasionally every few years. It’s Used in collision investigations and traffic enforcement.
Agree
My wife has a little AWD SUV (Rav4) and that thing is dreadful to drive in anything other than a straight line. I even hate driving it in snow and prefer either my Accord or Fit with snow tires.
SUVs feel so fucking odd so high off the ground......…..
Oh you mean the 85th percentile, how speed limits should be set in the first place...……………..
The fact that legislatures set speed limits means every last one of them is a fucking joke. Even school zones (20 in my state) are too fucking slow. 30 is just fine absent some features that severely obstruct vision.
sweet!
i wanted to put a formula atlantic mzr engine in my mazda but no way to getting one.
I have run the Hankook RS-3 on my Camaro (305/30/19 at all four corners). I got around 1200 total miles (800 on the track and 400 driving to/from the venue) before they completely went to shit at around 20 heat cycles with about 40% tread life remaining. Overall, they were a good value, and worked reasonably well across a range of track temperature and condition. I didn't have any problems with warm-up time, but with 650 RWHP and a curb weight of about 4050 lbs, getting heat into the tires has never been a problem.
I've also run the RE-71s on a LeMons entry, and we barely got through a 24-hour event with one mid-race rotation. Had cords showing on a couple at the end
It was a damn hot day (and night), though. I have driven a Ralt RT4 atlantic. Soooo much more downforce and corner speed than the flat bottom Continentals I was used to. That many g's with a helmet on did not due my spine much good. Degenerative disk disease in my neck got me out of the formula cars, lower back disk disease got me off the bikes. Did a good bit of endurance racing in closed cars, but it never quite had the rush of open wheel or 2 wheel ;-(sweet!
i wanted to put a formula atlantic mzr engine in my mazda but no way to getting one.
I did this to my 2007 z06 on big willow. It had the 8qt dry sump tank. In 08 they changed to a 10qt tank.
A lot of speed limits are also set because of the speed differential with moving traffic to merging traffic.
if the entrance to the highway is a old sharp turn which needs to be taken at 30 mph with a small run up into traffic.
there can’t be traffic driving at 75mph. The difference is to great causing safety issues.
Yep.
The legislature certainly isn't any more idiotic than a good portion of the drivers that are supposed to be following said speed limits.
There is no argument that you can make to convince me that the overwhelming majority of speed limits in this country make any rational sense or are reasonable.
If a fellow really wants to know what a vehicle is capable of, pursuing auto cross. There, in a reasonably safe environment at speeds that rarely get above 45-50 one can learn the limits of ones’s vehicle and one’s Driving.
I actually could turn much quicker times in our son’s Miata. (Koni shocks, r-rated tries and decent springs.) My Corvette was way beyond my ability. I felt confident in speed tests on straight roads with easy curves, but on an auto cross course, I learned to appreciate the skills that the men and women who race those vehicles possess.
I actually could turn much quicker times in our son’s Miata. (Koni shocks, r-rated tries and decent springs.) My Corvette was way beyond my ability. I felt confident in speed tests on straight roads with easy curves, but on an auto cross course, I learned to appreciate the skills that the men and women who race those vehicles possess.
I tend to echo the consensus that the RE-71R is better suited to auto cross than all out track lapping. It's got unparalleled cold grip but falls off sharply if you're not very carful to manage temps. In an auto cross, your lap is over before they're hot enough to get greasy.I have run the Hankook RS-3 on my Camaro (305/30/19 at all four corners). I got around 1200 total miles (800 on the track and 400 driving to/from the venue) before they completely went to shit at around 20 heat cycles with about 40% tread life remaining. Overall, they were a good value, and worked reasonably well across a range of track temperature and condition. I didn't have any problems with warm-up time, but with 650 RWHP and a curb weight of about 4050 lbs, getting heat into the tires has never been a problem.
I've also run the RE-71s on a LeMons entry, and we barely got through a 24-hour event with one mid-race rotation. Had cords showing on a couple at the end
I enjoy the cold RS-4s on a cool morning drive to the office with no one else on the road, and 11 round-abouts enroute. The tail happy nature of the car comes back and is easily exploitable at barely over the speed limit. Once they're hot though, they don't give anything up to the REs. At least not that can be exploited on the street.
Wasn't going to try and make an argument.
Thats whats cool about vintage sports cars. I have a Triumph Spitfire that is a retired SCCA racer from the 70s. Thrashing through the corners you feel like you are busting the speed limit bad enough to wind up in jail. Noise, feed back through the steering wheel, vibrations, pounding from the suspension. All the things that make driving fast such fun. Then you take a look at the speedo and realize you ar only at or 5 over the posted speed limit.
Here's some in car from when I first picked up my second 86 and was just burning off the stock Prius tires...
Sorry for the weird exposure.
Also, I do normally wear a helmet.
Yes, that’s a GT3 at 3:45.
Sorry for the weird exposure.
Also, I do normally wear a helmet.
Yes, that’s a GT3 at 3:45.
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It's definitely the cheapest way to find out just what you can do, and then raise the level.
That may be the first thing I do with my Fit after my daughter gives it back this autumn. Just go to Tirerack and pick a set of 16x6 wheels with whatever autox tires I can find.
When I ran a Golf GTi 16V in SCCA E stock, BFG Comp TA Rs and Kumho Victoracers were the shit. And anything from Hoosier.
But I date myself
@Mike_Honcho great thread
If you are wanting a street only car to be fun on the occasinal mountain road, most anything worth calling a sports car will go faster through the corners than the average person could push it. As stated before, driver skill is key.
HPDE is great, and maybe some instructors are boring and too safety focused as somebody mentioned, but that hasn't been my experience. I had the then current NASA TTU track record holder for VIR time trials sit right seat one weekend. Had a 600hp C6 Z06, stripped caged etc. I was in a nearly stock (alignment/corner balanced, decent tires) C5 Z. He showed me the racing line and had me screaming around there! Which also disproves the above post about Vette guys always going slow
HPDE is great, and maybe some instructors are boring and too safety focused as somebody mentioned, but that hasn't been my experience. I had the then current NASA TTU track record holder for VIR time trials sit right seat one weekend. Had a 600hp C6 Z06, stripped caged etc. I was in a nearly stock (alignment/corner balanced, decent tires) C5 Z. He showed me the racing line and had me screaming around there! Which also disproves the above post about Vette guys always going slow
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How tight were your NewBalances though?If you are wanting a street only car to be fun on the occasinal mountain road, most anything worth calling a sports car will go faster through the corners than the average person could push it. As stated before, driver skill is key.
HPDE is great, and maybe some instructors are boring and too safety focused as somebody mentioned, but that hasn't been my experience. I had the then current NASA TTU track record holder for VIR time trials sit right seat one weekend. Had a 600hp C6 Z06, stripped caged etc. I was in a nearly stock (alignment/corner balanced, decent tires) C5 Z. He showed me the racing line and had me screaming around there! Which also disproves the above post about Vette guys always going slow
^ Not all vette owners are that guy, that's a damn dirty stereotype hahaha. I don't have new balances, gold chains, Hawaiian shirts or even thick chest hair! Hell I'm not even retired I bought a 18 year old, 100k mile, needs some tlc Vette so I could dog it on track days and not worry!
I bought a 18 year old, 100k mile, needs some tlc Vette so I could dog it on track days and not worry! 
^ Not all vette owners are that guy, that's a damn dirty stereotype hahaha. I don't have new balances, gold chains, Hawaiian shirts or even thick chest hair! Hell I'm not even retired
But, tell us the truth, you haven't trimmed your muff since 1982.
