questions about heavies, 210 vld+varget

[gcoulsey]

ok, my rifle loves 178 Amax, but here in the UK there seems to be a real shortage of any bullets coming across the water from USA at the moment, and im nearly runout.

i really want to try some heavies (190 smk, 208 amax, anything similar)
all shops/internet are sold out.

BUT.. i have found a place that has 1000 210 grn bergers in stock, and need you chaps to tell me if i stand any chance of getting these to work with my setup??

.308 26" 1-10 twist, lapua brass.

i REALLY want to use VARGET because i use it already for all other loads and rifles, and temp-sensitive is important to me.

mag length unimportant, but i dont like crunching powder much, and i usually hit pressure early with this rifle.

i currently get 2630fps with 42.4 varget with the 178's

am i chasing a pipe-dream? will these 210's work with what i have?

thanks, giles.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Will it work? Yes. There is a thread about Varget and the heavies. But it seems like going to RL17 is going to be the ticket to get the most speed with the heavies.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

i THINK i can get hold of some Rl17, and im very interested in the 208 amax mega thread.. but cant buy any.

how does RL17 compare to varget with temp-stability?

 

[Short-bus]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Rl17 is temperature sensitive, changes pretty dramatically with temperature, that's the primary reason I went to Varget to experiment with.

Varget will work, start low, work your way up. I loaded the 208 amax's .01 off the lands, and started with 41.0gr Varget, if you try this MAKE SURE YOU LOAD LONG. If you are loading at box length, you may have issues. I was only able to get about 2450fps with my top end loads of Varget, and I was starting to get some pressure signs, and I backed off a hair and settled with a load there.

You will get more velocity with RL17, however so far I've found that the accuracy isn't as good as Varget (.5avg Varget vs. .65 avg RL17), but it's close. With your 26" barrel, you can really take advantage of the RL17 and push them 2600fps pretty easily, I only have 20" to work with, so my velocities won't be as high as yours. 2400fps will still get me 1200+ yards supersonic, and that's more than enough for me. 2400fps recoil is less violent, and muzzle blast is reduced.

All I can say is that you should try it out, you're twist rate is more than sufficient, and you have a good barrel length. I tried some other things for a little while, but I just wasn't satisfied with anything else due to them not being as good in the wind, and not having the umph on target downrange. The 208's slap the heck out of the target at 1000 yards.

Branden

 

[BCP]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

IIRC there were people using RL15 in the 208 megathread, Varget has a similar speed so I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'll have to check but I think my lyman book said 41.5 varget with a 210.

Too bad you can't just have them shipped to you from the US we are practically swimming in bullets here.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Ok, I will get a box to try, but I will only try them with varget, if I can't get them to work good enough with that, I will stick to something that does.
I do half my range work at night when the wind has dropped, with spotlights lighting up the targets, and obviously I get big temp changes when I shoot sunny afternoons, so RL17 doesn't sound suitable for my setup.

Thanks for the input!!
Giles.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

I think that a 1:10, with that bullet, at reduced velocities, may be close to not fully stabilizing.
H-4350 may work well with that weight.
It's a step slower than varget (similar in burn rate to RL-17), and one of their temp insensitive (extreme) powders.
Pressure, and velocity should be excellent with it.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that a 1:10, with that bullet, at reduced velocities, may be close to not fully stabilizing.
H-4350 may work well with that weight.
It's a step slower than varget (similar in burn rate to RL-17), and one of their temp insensitive (extreme) powders.
Pressure, and velocity should be excellent with it.</div></div>

thanks!

 

[Short-bus]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that a 1:10, with that bullet, at reduced velocities, may be close to not fully stabilizing.
H-4350 may work well with that weight.
It's a step slower than varget (similar in burn rate to RL-17), and one of their temp insensitive (extreme) powders.
Pressure, and velocity should be excellent with it. </div></div>

Correct me if i'm wrong please, however I believe that there was a lady/person from AI that's on this forum that actually shoots 208's suppressed subsonic from a 1:10 twist. If you go heavier than that, that's where the issues arise.

Branden

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Well that's good to know.
If she's getting them to behave under those conditions then you'll probably be fine.
I run a 308 load with 50.0 grains RL-17, and the 178 A-max.
The OAL is pretty long with that one, but I was getting about the same pressure as 45.0 Varget, and 155 A-max's loaded to 2.80".
I've wanted to try H4350 for a while with 178's, but have not gotten around to it.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well that's good to know.
If she's getting them to behave under those conditions then you'll probably be fine.
I run a 308 load with 50.0 grains RL-17, and the 178 A-max.
The OAL is pretty long with that one, but I was getting about the same pressure as 45.0 Varget, and 155 A-max's loaded to 2.80".
I've wanted to try H4350 for a while with 178's, but have not gotten around to it. </div></div>

What velocities are you getting with RL17 and the 178's? I haven't read anywhere where anyone was going that combo, only with the heavies and 208/210's.

Branden

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IIRC there were people using RL15 in the 208 megathread, Varget has a similar speed so I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'll have to check but I think my lyman book said 41.5 varget with a 210.

Too bad you can't just have them shipped to you from the US we are practically swimming in bullets here.</div></div>

All the major websites (midwayUK etc) that import the bullets all say there's a big shortage.

If I could buy them direct I would! They are heavy to ship, so expensive shipping costs, and I'm not sure of the legalities..
Damn nuisance!

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

It was a while ago when I was running that load.
I developed it for a Kreiger 27" barreled mod70.
I never did chrono that load but it required the same elevation at 600 yards as did the 45.0 varget/RL15 load with the 155 a-max.
Based on reading pressure from the remaining primer radius, I know it was no powder puff load.
I actually didn't expect to reach those pressures with that combo, but I did.
I would expect that with the 208, and a FULL case of H4350, would yield similar pressures.
Work up to it, but I'd wager you couldn't put in too much.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Bergers arrived today, so will get some test loads made up and hopefully get some results over the weekend (weather permitting)

I don't have any other powder YET, so will try with varget first.

I just measured them in my champer with hornady LNL oal guage, and 2.26" OAL is touching the lands. They only appear to be a smidge longer (COAL) than my amax loads..

Any suggestions for a varget start load and start OAL? I usually start about .010" off the lands, that sound ok?

 

[Short-bus]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

I started at 41.0gr, got the low 2300's velocity from my 20" barrel.

Branden

 

[RTH1800]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

I would defer to shankster on any question about heavies. Or very heavies. Or very, very heavies. LOL

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Quick update,

I've just got home from first pressure tests, thunderstorm rolled in and stopped play, but promising results so far..

I loaded x1 round of each charge, started low at
40.0 grn varget .003" jump, and went up .3grn each round.

40.0 grn error
40.3 grn error (repositioned chrono)
40.6 grn. 2370 fps
40.9 grn 2406 fps
41.2 grn. 2450 fps
41.5 grn 2450 fps
41.8 grn. 2478 fps primers just starting to flatten out a bit.

I'm confident I can sit over 2500 fps and be within my comfortable pressure limits, but still have no idea where accuracy nodes are yet, as I am just finding pressure ceiling.
I shot with my silencer on, and was suprised how little the recoil was.. I was expecting a big increase from my 178 amax load, but didn't really notice any difference.
I'm happy with anything over 2450 fps really, so as long as I find a sweet spot, I will stick to varget for now!

Hopefully get some more results in tomorrow night, then start on ocw tests

I will keep updating, and add pics if I figure out how!!
Thanks for the input getting me started on this load guys!

Giles.

 

[Ratwhiskers]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Giles.

JBM says you're good to go to 1100mtrs @2450f/pf and 500+f/lbs

Are you doing the CLA Game Fair this year?

 

[Short-bus]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick update,

I've just got home from first pressure tests, thunderstorm rolled in and stopped play, but promising results so far..

I loaded x1 round of each charge, started low at
40.0 grn varget .003" jump, and went up .3grn each round.

40.0 grn error
40.3 grn error (repositioned chrono)
40.6 grn. 2370 fps
40.9 grn 2406 fps
41.2 grn. 2450 fps
41.5 grn 2450 fps
41.8 grn. 2478 fps primers just starting to flatten out a bit.

I'm confident I can sit over 2500 fps and be within my comfortable pressure limits, but still have no idea where accuracy nodes are yet, as I am just finding pressure ceiling.
I shot with my silencer on, and was suprised how little the recoil was.. I was expecting a big increase from my 178 amax load, but didn't really notice any difference.
I'm happy with anything over 2450 fps really, so as long as I find a sweet spot, I will stick to varget for now!

Hopefully get some more results in tomorrow night, then start on ocw tests

I will keep updating, and add pics if I figure out how!!
Thanks for the input getting me started on this load guys!

Giles. </div></div>

Those are really good numbers!! That extra barrel length really helps out.

Branden

 

[kombayotch]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well that's good to know.
If she's getting them to behave under those conditions then you'll probably be fine.
I run a 308 load with 50.0 grains RL-17, and the 178 A-max.
The OAL is pretty long with that one, but I was getting about the same pressure as 45.0 Varget, and 155 A-max's loaded to 2.80".
I've wanted to try H4350 for a while with 178's, but have not gotten around to it. </div></div>

What velocities are you getting with RL17 and the 178's? I haven't read anywhere where anyone was going that combo, only with the heavies and 208/210's.

Branden </div></div>

I tried R-17 with 190 SMK and 155 Scenars early on.

155 Scenar, RL-17, 26" Bartein (79F):
49.0gr. > 2819fps (avg.)
49.5gr. > 2875fps (avg.)
50.0gr. > 2903fps (avg.)
50.5gr. > 2968fps (avg.) very compressed, stopped here.

Was running a 190 SMK load for a while, but dropped it due to the temperature instability. 48.5gr. gave me 2700 fps., but groups were the best with 45.5gr. @ 2550fps. It was accurate (until it would un-tune due to temperature).

10 shots, 300 yards.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratwhiskers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Giles.

JBM says you're good to go to 1100mtrs @2450f/pf and 500+f/lbs

Are you doing the CLA Game Fair this year?</div></div>

Roll on harvest time, then we can hopefully get some 1k+ targets setup!! restricted to 750 yrds at the moment, and the damn grass growing high is starting to make some of our prone positions difficult!!
no game fair for me mate, too busy on the farm to take time off.. and im shooting up in Scotland for a week in August.
i heard a rumour you got some free shooting in Africa??!!??
lucky sod!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was running a 190 SMK load for a while, but dropped it due to the temperature instability. 48.5gr. gave me 2700 fps., but groups were the best with 45.5gr. @ 2550fps. It was accurate (until it would un-tune due to temperature).
</div></div>

how much temp-swing are you talking about? 40-80'f for instance?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Going from the 80's down to the 40's would certainly do it.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Well I can't resist the temptation to TRY some R17, just for shits and giggles, but I know that instability will kick my ass lol.
Fingers crossed this varget will group good for me over 2450fps anyway.

Giles.

 

[hypertex]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

I'm working up loads for the 208 AMAX for my 18" rifle. I've tried four Hodgdon powders: Hybrid 100V, H4350, Varget and H4895. First two are too slow, I could put as much powder in as I liked. The Varget got me to 2250fps. The H4895 got me to 2375fps. Perhaps you could also get another 100fps by working up a load with this powder.
Loads here on p.6

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working up loads for the 208 AMAX for my 18" rifle. I've tried four Hodgdon powders: Hybrid 100V, H4350, Varget and H4895. First two are too slow, I could put as much powder in as I liked. The Varget got me to 2250fps. The H4895 got me to 2375fps. Perhaps you could also get another 100fps by working up a load with this powder.
Loads here on p.6</div></div>

always open to options! I'll check the link thanks

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

update..

finished pressure tests tonight, very pleased with result!

(varget w/210 vld)

x2 barrel warmers 41.8 grn 2474 fps

42.0 grn 2487 fps
42.2 grn 2510 fps
42.4 grn 2515 fps stopped with flat primers

the 3 different charges above all gave one nice ragged hole too!!
so on face value, there seems to be an accuracy node between
42.0 and 42.4 grns. brilliant! right at my target speed of 2500fps.

next i will load up an OCW test within that .4 grns, and see how they group.
picked up a lb of RL17 this afternoon, but might not even break the seal on it now!!!!

giles.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Thanks for taking the time to share your data.
Much appreciated.
That's a very respectable velocity you're getting as well.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for taking the time to share your data.
Much appreciated.
That's a very respectable velocity you're getting as well.</div></div>

Your welcome, and yes I'm really pleased!
I'm loading up tonight for some accuracy tests, fingers crossed I will have some more data by tomorrow night if I can get them shot in the afternoon

I still havnt figured out how to put pics in my posts from my computer.. If anyone can help with that I will get some pics added of my results too!

Giles.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

I always refer to this posting:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=53705#Post53705

It can be found in the at the top of the list, in the "for sale" section for future reference.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: quick questions about heavies..

Thanks, I'm now just waiting for some decent groups to post,
to be honest I have been struggling past couple of days,
I'm getting amazingly low ES velocities, but struggling to average 1MOA groups.

I think I have settled on 42.3grn varget, 2510fps average, but horizontal stringing is kicking my ass.. I'm playing around with different rifle holds too, trying to keep the bipod 'hop' to a minimum.

I read somewhere seating depth has a direct relationship with horizontal stringing? I'm .003" jumping at mo, and don't want to jam the bullets because I'm already running on the edge of pressure.

Opinions?