Reduced quality 22LR ammo - most match brands

[GuideDog]

Ah I think you are the one mixed up, maybe another cup of coffee. I was replying to CSAfisher he wanted an example

Lee

Good laugh, I'm laughing too since I didn't catch that. It's good to have a bit of humor. Point still is ya need a baseline, data with no tuner.

 

[Csafisher]

Not taking anything personal, as far as yapping I provided an example of what was done with one rifle using a tuner. what have you provided? but reference to other's tests/videos.
as you say your opinion-a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. my example is not of an opinion but based off fact and actual knowledge!

Lee

Well that post was for oldrifleman so I guess you need another cup of coffee as well lol.

Anyway I guess your test is factual and mine (and others) aren’t. I guess based on your ego…

 

[GuideDog]

He's a college professor. I bet he will get a kick out of that. So will everyone else.
I don't care how much education one has if they do not understand the concept of what a barrel tuner does at best they can get their rifle to shoot good. why don't you also ask them why they think they need a tuner I bet they will tell you because everyone else uses one.
the blind leading the blind doesn't mean they know which way to go!

This shooter is probably the most well-known Anschutz RFBR shooter his name is Joe Besche ask that professor guy if he knows who Joe is

Lee

If I happened to reply to the wrong person I would think people can figure out who the reply is for.

Why would I ask that? It has no bearing on why HE is using a tuner? I have asked him if he thought they work. His answer was "not really".
I don't know Joe Besche. Never shot with him so why do you expect anyone to know this person? Just because we wins matches? I'm sure if he does he's a great shooter!

I shoot for the FUN of competition. Many of us do. I'm not a pro, and may never be. I learn from those around me, by going to a few local matches and asking questions. Just about everyone is helpful. Some even go out of their way. Not here, thay go out of the way to criticize.

This forum is kinda the opposite, lot's of nothing but chest beating. He said, she said. No data to backup anything but "cuz I win".
Yep, I said that too. I win without a tuner. I'm not bragging about how great tuners are.

Step back, have fun, life is too short. It is a shame that some resort to name calling here.
Here we go.... is it going to be a back and forth forever?

 

[GuideDog]

I will sum up this thread by summarizing.

Anything you can do
I can do better

Annie Get you gun

Hmmm, should be get your Annie. LMAO

Yep, like the song. Now admit it. That WAS funny...

 

[oldrifleman]

Well that post was for oldrifleman so I guess you need another cup of coffee as well lol.

Anyway I guess your test is factual and mine (and others) aren’t. I guess based on your ego…

I think yours is the biggest ego, but you recognize your results as facts just as the rest of us have our facts and live by them. Proof is what drives your decisions. Feel free to leave your muzzle free from any sort of tuner, in fact I welcome it. would I beat you in a match, most certainly not I am too Old, To physically busted up, but pretty sure some of the young bucks around here could. The world may never know.

 

[Csafisher]

I think yours is the biggest ego, but you recognize your results as facts just as the rest of us have our facts and live by them. Proof is what drives your decisions. Feel free to leave your muzzle free from any sort of tuner, in fact I welcome it. would I beat you in a match, most certainly not I am too Old, To physically busted up, but pretty sure some of the young bucks around here could. The world may never know.

Lol talk about ego! I base my opinion on my tests which seem to be much more in depth than what you guys are doing and that of other tests. You don’t like that because of the small sample tests you’ve done, busted logic about winning matches, and dogma. And now you are over here talking about beating me in a match because you disagree with my opinion…. ROTFL. Ego….. You don’t have to be a good shooter to understand tuners, statistics, and physics….

EDIT I would have to problem saying tuners work for some setups if someone did a legitimate test…. That’s more than I can say about you because we already have that available…

 

[oldrifleman]

Lol talk about ego! I base my opinion on my tests which seem to be much more in depth than what you guys are doing and that of other tests. You don’t like that because of the small sample tests you’ve done, busted logic about winning matches, and dogma. And now you are over here talking about beating me in a match because you disagree with my opinion…. ROTFL. Ego….. You don’t have to be a good shooter to understand tuners, statistics, and physics….

I am a Mechanical engineer with a background in Fluids. As far as proof goes I have seen your evidence, several times in depth over the years, and I have seen the pro-tuner evidence, also several times in depth. Neither side would come even close to passing a peer review. Do I have an EGO, probably, but I listen. I also recognize that we are NEVER going to see eye to eye on this. As I tried to say, enjoy, tuner or not, putting rounds downrange is where it's at.

 

[GuideDog]

Confirmation bias: Some large-sample-size tests have failed to show a statistically significant improvement from tuners, suggesting that some perceived benefits may be due to confirmation bias.
There ya go.

Reduced quality 22LR ammo - most match brands​

That was the topic.

It is funny how things here will never make progress. Its so different face to face. I like the personal interaction, camaraderie made when we meet at matches. I think someone said an armed society is a polite society. That's well said but doesn't work in internet chat. It's too bad. Friendship is very hard to come by and we all should try to put petty differences aside about a hunk of metal. Use it if you like, or don't. Just don't tell someone your bias is true, let them decide. I don't expect I'll get some to agree, but said it anyway.

 

[texasmotor]

And it was once believed that hummingbirds could not fly backwards or walk, yet here we are.
It’s a 22 rimfire after all

 

[LR1845]

And it was once believed that hummingbirds could not fly backwards or walk, yet here we are.
It’s a 22 rimfire after all

Everyone here arguing if tuners work or not and we have Hummingbirds flying backwards and walking.....WTF....Has the world gone mad!!...I think the real question here is how do Hummingbirds fly upside down?

 

[GuideDog]

I am a Mechanical engineer with a background in Fluids. As far as proof goes I have seen your evidence, several times in depth over the years, and I have seen the pro-tuner evidence, also several times in depth. Neither side would come even close to passing a peer review. Do I have an EGO, probably, but I listen. I also recognize that we are NEVER going to see eye to eye on this. As I tried to say, enjoy, tuner or not, putting rounds downrange is where it's at.

@Csafisher

Any mechanical engineer knows the importance of having a control. Characterizing the UUT (Unit Under Test) before and after the change, adding the tuner. There also another great fact no one discussed. User input. The differences of how the operator changes almost everything on each shot. The way the trigger is pulled, body contact with the stock etc. I did mention some of this. This article discusses all this and is very informative. It also says to each their own. I added that before the conclusion that there is no statistical difference before and after adding a tuner. I know at least one who claims to be an engineer but will have little or no interest in learning because life has taught him/them differently. When you attend college in the 1930's or 40's there was not much to learn about design of experiments.

I can't post the direct link but a search for the below will find it.

Bryan Litz Ballistics​

One of several tuner testing results published in Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Vol 3
https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/.../modern-advancements.../
There are many claims about tuners effect on precision based on anecdotes and small sample size. By contrast, this study uses statistically significant sample sizes and as a result, has a better chance of being "less wrong" than tests compromised of less data.
Detailed test parameters are covered in the book, but the basics are: Same ammo/load used for the whole test. Fired 5 groups of 5 shots (5x5 aggregate) as a baseline, before installing the tuner.
Install tuner and sweep entire range of settings/revolutions multiple times (course). Select the revolution which appeared to produce best precision. Sweep settings within a single revolution (fine) multiple times per mfg instructions.
One thing to note at this point is that the best and worst settings were different each sweep. This alone demonstrates that the test for best setting is not repeatable **but you would never know it if you don't repeat the test** Then, 5 groups of 5 shots were fired at each of the settings indicated as best and worst in the fine sweeps.
Finally, the tuner was removed and a 5x5 agg was fired again in the baseline configuration
Results: the precision, as characterized by a 5x5 agg, is statistically no different at any of the tuner settings or the before and after baselines.
Analysis: in this case, the tuner did not affect precision (same result for the other tests which included: A 6 Dasher PRS rifle, 22 rimfire, and another test on a different FTR gun/shooter)
There's a podcast (episode #55) that covers this as well on www.thescienceofaccuracy.com
Follow me for more statistically significant test results

#appliedballistics #thescienceofaccuracy

 

[GuideDog]

Everyone here arguing if tuners work or not and we have Hummingbirds flying backwards and walking.....WTF....Has the world gone mad!!...I think the real question here is how do Hummingbirds fly upside down?

Ahh the hummingbird thing. First anyone can watch one and see they fly backwards and they do have feet. It was once thought they couldn't walk because the structure of their feet. Why MIGHT this be important. I read it as we learn and revise theories. New information changes what we once thought, remember the world was flat? Well now we know it's not. We also now know much more about tuners. Those that studied before the invention of high speed cameras and accelerometers, they read old information if they had any. mayby rely on computer models. Data gets updated and revised. I ran a mechanical engineering lab for a major company of 40,000 people. I started in field test. I don't think I heard of tuners or I would have done the experiment in my "off" hours. I had access to all the equipment and directed structural and modal testing. Modal testing is vibration analysis technique used to determine the dynamic properties of a structure, such as its natural frequencies, mode shapes, and damping ratios. Has anyone tried to analyze flutter on small wings at supersonic speeds? No, not many have access to those labs. China Lake was awesome. Saw the sled that the first ejection seat that was tested for the Gemini program and so many other ground breaking tests artifacts. Basically no one will understand or care to my history of testing. It's happened all my life where someone tries to dismiss true data. I use to feel sorry for them. Then I realized some will never accept anything beyond the scope of their own bubble. Life becomes amazing when you do step out.

Again, we all can choose if we believe what works. If you believe that's enough bias to skew the results. When a test setup is designed it can be made to show whatever you want. That's why documentation and data are so important. Not just cuz I know. I see everyone using this device, it has to work.