But, but, but $1400 heat is better than $100 heat though! Right? Right? ? right...??? ?
- Thread starter Winny94
- Start date
But, but, but $1400 heat is better than $100 heat though! Right? Right? ? right...??? ?
Lol, he finally said something that made sense. At a certain point, you cannot judge ones success's, whether perceived or real. If he feels his brass in a state of semi softness works, that is his baseline and may be correct in his findings.
There has been many discussions here on annealing, and I recall one guy soft annealing as he called it for a few firings, then a full or hard anneal as he called it, and swore success.
I today own an AMP, an upgrade from a double torched Giraud, and feel I am better off with the AMP, not saying it is perfect, just works here every firing.
I myself am not clicking the link to the article, and honestly feel less about AMP's creators for publishing it's findings. Put your product in the spot light with success's by your product w/o trying to nullify another method.
If there is one aspect of reloading that even 60% will ever agree on, it is annealing, it is that controversial.
I think you should feel bad for asking the question (multiple times) since AMP's post spells it out. Salt bath annealing has a maximum temperature of 550C degrees whereas gas and induction have higher potential heat. AMP's main contention is that salt bath annealing isn't capable of imparting enough heat into the brass to lower the brass hardness to what they think is ideal. However, they show that salt bath annealing does in fact lower the brass' hardness, it's just not to the hardness level they have decided.
I read the write up and it says they used a Hornady die and the neck hardness went from 95HV to 140 HV if I read it correctly?
Further along it said anything above 120 HV is useless again if I read it correctly?
In What order does annealing take place in your reloading sequence?
Further along it said anything above 120 HV is useless again if I read it correctly?
In What order does annealing take place in your reloading sequence?
Lol, I think one of the bigger problems on this site when comparing findings is, we never back our statements up with groups, or a series of groups shot at distance, in all conditions. So the bulk of it is basically perceived accuracy by others.
If you were a member of accurate shooter, when those guys talk of their procedures they do, you can follow up on it by looking up shoot results and see their measured group scores, single and aggregate. Granted their equipment may be more sophisticated for that purpose, when a guy averages 5 shot groups at 1k measuring 3.1" for the yr, now it becomes tough to argue the virtues of what they actually do in brass prep.
Totally agree. The guys on that forum are NUTS! But I learn so much whenever I go down the rabbit hole over there. I never post there because I can't even tie their shoes in regard to marksmanship skill or anal-ness as far as reloading goes.
I do happen to already have loaded 20 identical rounds of non-annealed brass vs done did with SBA. We'll see how it looks on paper at 200.
You say non annealed but not how many firings on the brass. A true test would be anneal one set every time and not anneal the other for about 10 firings. Record data and compare. A one time test is about useless because I've seen people with the same load have single digit sd's one weekend and the next time they go out have sd's of 15-20. Same exact load, same amount firings on the brass, only thing different is the day.
Anyone with half a brain knows any of the three common annealing methods can do the job “well enough” at the very least. The advantage to the AMP is there is no setup at all (you literally push a power button, select Aztec mode, enter a 4 digit code, and press enter, it’s literally a 15 second process), and a .308 sized case takes about 2-3 seconds to anneal. How much time does it take for a SBA to reach operating temp? How long do you have to soak a case? How quickly can you soak cases without the salt temperature dropping too quickly to stabilize at the desired temp? The AMP is waaaaaaaaaay faster to setup, moderately faster to use, requires no real maintenance, and doesn’t involve dealing with molten material and the obvious risks involved with them. The only risk to the AMP is you accidentally burn your fingers by touching the case as soon as it finishes, but if you did the same with a SBA, you’d most likely be in even more severe danger as you’d likely get molten salt on your skin as well.
No one intelligent is saying the AMP is better because it has superior heat. The AMP is better because it is faster and is so safe you can mindlessly use it, and the only thing you have to do to achieve consistency is enter the 4 digit code correctly. If you can’t afford the AMP or don’t consider its obvious benefits worth the cost, that’s fine. There’s a very good chance that you can achieve the desired result with other cheaper, but more hassle intensive methods. But, bashing the AMP is just as stupid, if not more so, than bashing torch flame methods or SBA methods. They all have a probability to achieve what is desired, though some in my opinion have higher probabilities than others. Flame methods shine in their accessibility to anyone, SBA methods shine in their improved consistency and low cost, and the AMP shines in its much improved convenience, speed, and simplicity.
No one intelligent is saying the AMP is better because it has superior heat. The AMP is better because it is faster and is so safe you can mindlessly use it, and the only thing you have to do to achieve consistency is enter the 4 digit code correctly. If you can’t afford the AMP or don’t consider its obvious benefits worth the cost, that’s fine. There’s a very good chance that you can achieve the desired result with other cheaper, but more hassle intensive methods. But, bashing the AMP is just as stupid, if not more so, than bashing torch flame methods or SBA methods. They all have a probability to achieve what is desired, though some in my opinion have higher probabilities than others. Flame methods shine in their accessibility to anyone, SBA methods shine in their improved consistency and low cost, and the AMP shines in its much improved convenience, speed, and simplicity.
Totally agree. This particular combo I'm shooting has been pretty consistent as far as being sub 10 SD across 3 different range trips with a 30-40 degree temperature change and about a 2000 foot DA change. It's probably the most consistent load I have made.
I do intend to leave 5-10 pieces of brass out of the annealing cycle for a bunch of firings just to see if there are any differences with my particular process.
I don't own an annealing machine by my buddy has a salt bath annealer. He annealed a whole batch of brass for me, SD's went from ~15 to ~8. I don't care if my brass is annealed properly or not, how hard it is, ect. I just want results down range.
This is stolen plaguerized Intel but the smallest group ever fired at 600 yards used brass that annealed with a torch
The smallest group ever fired was done with unannealed brass which took 8 firings before it grouped.
Why do we anneal? To control neck tension and make it consistent from one piece of brass to the next. Why do we ultimately want to control neck tension/brass hardness consistency? So the chamber pressure is the same from shot to shot, which in turn controls our velocity from shot to shot.
In my opinion and with no evidence to back it up other than what has already been mentioned and what I have seen, any of the annealing methods should work because if you control the temperature correctly with every case you should create a consistent hardness from case to case. Is this better than not annealing? I don’t know, I think the issue with not annealing is you don’t know if the hardness is the same from case to case but with annealing the hardness “should be the same” so you know your cases are “identical”.
I do own an AMP annealer and the only reason is because I started out using just a touch and got tired of trashing cases trying to make sure I got the dwell time correct and then I was never sure of the consistency from case to case. I don’t think as far as annealing the AMP does anything better than any other methods but as far as consistency from case to case I think that is where the AMP wins and setup time/simplicity. I would probably just not anneal if I didn’t not own an AMP, or send it in to someone to anneal every 3 firings because I do not trust my self to keep the consistency close using any of the other methods.
In my opinion and with no evidence to back it up other than what has already been mentioned and what I have seen, any of the annealing methods should work because if you control the temperature correctly with every case you should create a consistent hardness from case to case. Is this better than not annealing? I don’t know, I think the issue with not annealing is you don’t know if the hardness is the same from case to case but with annealing the hardness “should be the same” so you know your cases are “identical”.
I do own an AMP annealer and the only reason is because I started out using just a touch and got tired of trashing cases trying to make sure I got the dwell time correct and then I was never sure of the consistency from case to case. I don’t think as far as annealing the AMP does anything better than any other methods but as far as consistency from case to case I think that is where the AMP wins and setup time/simplicity. I would probably just not anneal if I didn’t not own an AMP, or send it in to someone to anneal every 3 firings because I do not trust my self to keep the consistency close using any of the other methods.
Given that heat is heat. And that SBA is at X heat for Y amount of seconds, does that have enough time to change the metallurgy enough for good results. It’s good to think about your routine and tweak it to work best for what you do. God bless. Interesting thoughts.
I just wanna say that this is all fun to read and laugh about and that I am convinced that annealing is a proper method of to achieve more consistent neck tension...despite the few naysayers that have read the flawed study showing that it does no good.
Having said that, I’m a cretin and still use a torch and drill with a socket. There, I said it. I feel better now.
Having said that, this argument regarding which is better is mostly academic for 90% of the people shooting and reading here. Unless you are a high level bench rest competitor or a dedicated ultra ELR shooter, none of this nonesense makes one iota of difference. Yeah, I said that.
Now carry on with your regular arguing and nonsense whilst I go out and shoot 6” steel at 1000 because I can.
And yes, I’m a poor ass that still just shoots because it’s what I like.
Can you shoot the difference?
Having said that, I’m a cretin and still use a torch and drill with a socket. There, I said it. I feel better now.
Having said that, this argument regarding which is better is mostly academic for 90% of the people shooting and reading here. Unless you are a high level bench rest competitor or a dedicated ultra ELR shooter, none of this nonesense makes one iota of difference. Yeah, I said that.
Now carry on with your regular arguing and nonsense whilst I go out and shoot 6” steel at 1000 because I can.
And yes, I’m a poor ass that still just shoots because it’s what I like.
Can you shoot the difference?
Salt Bath Annealing? That’s what poor people do. I only anneal using fat harvested from the aged prime rib of a white rhino. 
Here is what Al Harrell has written on the subject.
He was a mechanical engineer at Lawrence Livermore National Labratory If that matters.
The subject is salt bath annealing. What did you provide that is relevant to that?
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Deleted member 121493
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I have annealed using salt bath. Never seen visual results like shown in the article. All kinds of cases (ss tumbled and not) were done and they never got the visual annealed look shown. Therefore I am a bit sceptical of the results and motives behind. It also makes no sense that the saltbath (500) does not heat the brass to high enough temperature to anneal (over 450)..
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Deleted member 10043
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You guys waste time annealing?
If you were annealing brass that has been reloaded several times then you would not see the same visual effects as you would see with a new case.
I provided the thoughts of a very smart engineer who has forgot more about shooting than you will ever know.
I suspect that he did not click on the link that you provided.
A lot if shooters in this thread asked questions about why annealing in the first place.
I provided a link to a genius ysing finite elenent abalysis and got a not so bright reply.
I suspect nobody here has ever shit a 0.282 5 shit group at 600 yards so it's to be expected.
I provided a link to a genius ysing finite elenent abalysis and got a not so bright reply.
I suspect nobody here has ever shit a 0.282 5 shit group at 600 yards so it's to be expected.
Chill out dude. Its fine to have a man crush, but your link didnt look hyperlinked and the previous poster just missed that.
While I like Varmint Al's pages (the content is great, the format... could be improved), the page/section that was linked to didn't have squat to do with salt bath annealing. Annealing in general, and why you shouldn't anneal your case heads (!!!), yes. SBA, not so much.
And like I already posted many here asked if annealing was viable and his credentials are better than anything from AMP or anyone posting here don't you think?
Always willing to hear from a smarter engineer.
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Deleted member 121493
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Annealed cases that were shot 1 to 10 times...
Not sure enough people caught this.....
If you compare the army's specifications for min/max hardness, to the results produced on 223 brass by SBA you see that SBA essentially cannot get below the maximum hardness standard for the neck of the case, while simultaneously producing case body softness that gets dangerously close to the minimum standard for brass softness.
So even if you ingore what AMP says the desired brass standard should be, it would appear that SBA cannot produce results that conform to the US Army standard for brass.
Do you know the credentials for the guys at AMP? I don’t.
I honestly don't think it'd matter to him.
So, you literally don’t know and made a statement as to who’s credentials were more respectable.
The tests are not the same AMP used a 500 gram load to test and the military used a 2.5 kg load.
Not sure how the load difference affects the results.
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Deleted member 10043
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Credentials for AMP.
A chimpanzee can look it up and I'm proof of that.
www.ampannealing.com
A chimpanzee can look it up and I'm proof of that.
Annealing Brass | Learn About Us | Annealing Made Perfect
Annealing Made Perfect is the brainchild of father and son team Alex and Matt Findlay. Alex has extensive experience in the firearms industry. Matt is a qualified engineer and tool maker. As passionate reloaders, we are always striving for the ultimate in accuracy.
www.ampannealing.com D
Deleted member 10043
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I've started annealing using heat from a homemade very small reactor core that also provides electricity for the house with enough left over to sell to the light company, which in turn pays for all my shooting needs. I'm thinking on bringing to market and call it Chernobyl I. It is very safe and I guess annealing 1000 cases is the equivalent radiation exposure as a single x-ray. I can easily handle lifetime warranty.
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Well it appears reading comprehension Isnt your strongest suit.
I posted both gentleman's credentials and will let someone else explain them to you.
Anyone start with salt bath and go amp? Or a group of people wanna get me a few pieces of salt bath annealed and amp annealed brass?
I can mount it up and do some testing independently.
I can mount it up and do some testing independently.
What kind of testing?
I can mount, do grain structure, micro hardness etc.
They're not "nuts". They're super Bench-Rest dickheads that believe shit no matter what the evidence is. FUDs are usually just ignorant, but most of them don't think they know everything there is to know about shooting and firearms. I don't belong to "The Bench Rest Club" in St. Louis (which is one of the premier BR clubs in the world) because it's full of fucktard old men who believe all sorts of horse shit about shooting, terminal ballistics, and "gun safety" that isn't so. They hold qualifications for every hundred yards and make it a year long process to be able to shoot to 1000, because they are absolute fucking idiots who think they're "experts". Sorry if some of you belong there, and I have good friends who do, but there are too many fucking morons for me.
While I like and am surrounded by extremely negative assholes all the time, I my tolerance for fools who think they're wise is below ZERO NFG. BR gurus embody ignorance masquerading as wisdom, refuse to learn anything new, and have a groupthink that should piss off any well adjusted person. They do bench-rest because they can't shoot, so they buy tiny groups for tens of thousands dollars. It's really a machining/hand loading contest and not a shooting contest.
I said that bullets "going to sleep" was bullshit on AS.com, based on basic Newtonian physics, and showed them the Litz testing that confirmed it was bullshit, and a bunch of the old guard bit my head off, said I was an idiot, and not to question "long time members" who have forgotten more about shooting than I will ever know. Really, that did if for me and I haven't been back to their forum.
SH is real world, real competition, (real direct action in a few cases) and no bullshit. Many or most guys on here fire more rounds in a season than a FUD will fire in his whole life, and more than a BR faggot will fire in ten years. We actually move and shoot the rifles in real conditions like real marksmen. We actually read the wind, read the mirage, and go when we hear "Engage!". We don't get to sit and wait for better conditions. We burn barrels out like FUDs buy a box of ammo.
There's tons of great info on Accurate shooter. The top BR guys wrote the books on hand-loading from which we've greatly benefited. Their advancements in gunsmithing and machining are partially why we have so many great rifles today. Their rifles can shoot. They can't. They're the snowflakes of the shooting community who can't hear an idea that's different from their dogma. They're useful as a reference, but I'd rather talk to the DMV or the IRS than deal with their ignorance parading as wisdom.
I'm sure you've noticed... but most of the 'better' competitors, even in BR (and F-class) don't post there all that much... for much the same reasons you mentioned. Way too many internet 'High Masters'.
Then again, you have to have the B.S. filter turned up pretty high in some parts of the 'Hide as well
Yes... but to some degree I've started coming back here for some reloading stuff. Some stuff that is a little outside the 'mainstream' norm over there is more easily accepted here, and it's easier to find persons willing to discuss those sorts of things.
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Deleted member 113831
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You just read my mind! You saved me the trouble.
I was, at one time, very close to the 1000 yard benchrest community (though not a participant). The club I was a member of was extremely active in that discipline. And....I lurk over on AS just about every day. It is exactly as you describe. They honestly believe they are marksmen and that all of their esoteric bullshit means much more than the "fuck all" it actually come to.
I do occasionally pick up a nugget so I keep lurking.
Those fuckers can print tiny groups at 1000 yards from a mechanical benchrest, and miss a deer at 300 yards on the same day.
By contrast, there are guys here that you can hand a zero'd rifle to that they had never seen before, tell them the bullet and speed, and they will get a hit on a 3/4 IPSC at 500 yards.
For the opposite...."Fudd Central" you gotta go over to longrangehunting.
