Re: Schmidt & Bender selection HELP
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Machinist_308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello Guys
I want get a Schmidt & Bender scope for my new AIAW .308
My idea is to get the 5-25 PMII with P4 reticle with illumination.
But I don't know enough, and sometimes bigger is not better.
My rifle has 20 inch bull barrel 1-10 twist.
I will use it on the range and rarely past 500 yards.
What would you guys recommend ?
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Mike, the PMII 5-25X is an excellent choice. I've owned and/or used 3.2-17X 44mm SN-3s', Premier 3-15X and 5-25Xs', a gaggle of Nightforces', and a couple of Gen 3 IOR FFP SH editions. The two high end scopes I still own are PMII 5-25X MIL CCW Gen 2 XRs'. The Gen 2 XR and Gen 2 Mildot are no longer available in new S & B scopes so the best choice for your shooting needs is a PMII 5-25X with the P4F reticle.
And while <span style="font-style: italic">"sometimes bigger is not better"</span>, the 5-25X is only slightly heavier and larger than a 4-16X, and it's higher magnification is not a hindrance at all. You can dial down the magnification on a 5-25X but you can't dial up with a 3-12X or 4-16X. As such, the 3-12X and 4-16X limit the precision of the aiming point. And under the right conditions I can read the ring numbers on a 600-Yard F-Class target.
I like the 168gr. and 175gr. SMKs', but lean towards the 175s' because it has performed well for me out to 1,000 yards, something that the 168gr. SMK hasn't done. The 168s' are great out to 600 yards and OK to 800 yards, but any wind at 800 and they get blown all over. I haven't tried the 168gr. and 178gr. AMAX yet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Machinist_308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...I will shoot the paper mostly, maybe F-ckass later down the road, who knows. </div></div>
Based upon what you've said (mostly paper-punching), I reiterate that the PMII 5-25X with the P4F reticle is the best choice for your shooting needs. The 5-25X / P4F setup will perform well for target shooting, silhouette, tactical matches, and F-Class (1/2 MOA) targets - and smaller. While you stated that you will rarely shoot past 500 yards, mirage notwithstanding you can crank the power up and see the target area much better with higher magnification, aiding in precise aiming. Whether you, your rifle, and ammo can take advantage of this is another matter that is also dependant upon the prevailing environmental conditions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Machinist_308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mil or MOA, 16x or 25x magnification, what's the pros and cons for each.
I went to theirs website, read what i could but it is still hard for me to decide.
I don't want to make a newbie mistake leaning towards stronger magnification and regret later that it wasn't the right choice.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Mike
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<span style="font-style: italic">To me</span>, the MIL or MOA question is moot, because all of S & B's reticles with the exception of the P1 Bryant are MIL-based - and I think its' stupid to mix MIL and MOA systems (which is exactly what you would be doing by getting MOA-based adjustments with anything other than a P1 Bryant reticle). The P1 Bryant reticle's subtensions' are inch@100yards-based, so while a PMII with the P1 Bryant reticle isn't a true matched MOA reticle/MOA turret scope its' close enough, especially for shooting human targets. It is not a high-precision reticle though.
Looking beyond that though, most people find tenths more intuitive to break-down and adjust in than quarters, so 0.1 MIL (1/10th MIL) adjustments are faster and easier to adjust with, especially under the time pressure that rules tactical matches. 0.1 MIL scopes require fewer clicks to move the Erector a given amount of travel, which is why the 0.1 MIL version of the PMII 4-16X is only available with a ST (Single Turn) Elevation turret while the 1/4 MOA version of the PMII 4-16X is only available with a DT (Double Turn) turret (the 1/4 MOA version needs a second turn that the 0.1 MIL version doesn't need). 0.1 MIL scopes are also slightly faster to adjust <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">if dialing</span></span>.
The disadvantage with MIL-based reticles and adjustments is that 0.1 MIL equals .36" at 100 yards, so it is a more coarse adjustment than 1/4 MOA (.26175" at 100 yards). One click at 600 yards with a 0.1 MIL scope is equal to 2.16", while one click at 600 yards with a 1/4 MOA scope is equal to 1.50".
A 600 Yard F-Class X-Ring is 3.0" in diameter, so even a single click in a 1/4 MOA scope puts the POI on the ring dividing the "X" and "10" ring. A single click in a 0.1 MIL scope puts the POI solidly in the "10" ring. And that is with perfectly aimed, perfectly held, perfectly followed-through shots that hit exactly where aimed. So you can see where the more fine 1/4 MOA adjustment can be an advantage.
But again, the 5-25X is the scope to get. The 3-12X and 4-16X are great scopes and they work very well for their intended use - shooting live targets as well as for tactical matches and MOA targets. The P3 and P4 reticles are my preference on the 3-12X and 4-16X because their thicker lines stand-out better at lower magnification.
The P3 and P4 reticles are fine at 16X and below but are really too coarse (thick) at the higher magnifications of the 5-25X. Thats' why reticle selection is key - magnifications and reticles that work very well for tactical matches and MOA targets don't necessarily work well - or at all, for smaller targets whether they be paper, steel, or live. Hope this helps.
Keith
