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Rifle Scopes Season changes = POI shift?

lennyo3034

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 18, 2010
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I have recently experienced POI shifts on two different rifles from the last time I shot them in February. Both still shoot very accurately (or precise to be specific), but both have had .4-.5 mil POI shift, enough to cause a miss. Both rifles wear scopes with a relatively good track record (Gen 2 Razor 4.5-27 and Steiner Military 1-4). The shift in the Razor was especially costly as I did not find out until I missed some very easy shots at a match today.

I store the rifles in a room not part of HVAC so the temperatures fluctuate often and to a greater extent than if I kept them in a normal room. I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this and is it normal?
 
I'm glad you brought up temperature! It could be You? A change in Atomosheric pressure? Factory ammo? Different lot of ammo? Bullets? Brass? Have you chronographed your load lately? I've seen a lot of talk around here lately about speed up/slow down due to barrel wear?
 
1/4-1/2 moa shift is typical. Even from day to day shooting. Yours is a bit more than that though. Ive personally experienced my poi shift from 10 o clock on the dot to 5 o clock on the dot just from the sun moving from east to west. I dont get too excited about small poi shifts. It is out of my control.

New loads? Been off the trigger long?
 
Nothing changed with the ammo. I did chrono the loads prior to the match and they were spot on. However the magnetospeed changes my POI (and always has) so I did not think to take it off and test for POI.

The two rifles had shifted in different directions and I also had another shooter confirm with the Steiner so I don't think it's shooter related.

The only thing I can think of is that the temperature changes and thermal expansion caused the turret screws to back out a bit.
 
You're talking about a POI shift at distance or in your zero? If the shift is in your zero, that's a problem. If it's a POI shift at distance, like 600, 800, 1000 yards... then that seems typical to me. By typical, I don't mean seasonally. I mean from day to day. But maybe it isn't normal? Seems like just atmospherics would cause a shift like that. But my ballistic app spits out DOPE to compensate, automatically. I've not seen a shift in my ZERO. That's the important one.
 
You're talking about a POI shift at distance or in your zero? If the shift is in your zero, that's a problem. If it's a POI shift at distance, like 600, 800, 1000 yards... then that seems typical to me. By typical, I don't mean seasonally. I mean from day to day. But maybe it isn't normal? Seems like just atmospherics would cause a shift like that. But my ballistic app spits out DOPE to compensate, automatically. I've not seen a shift in my ZERO. That's the important one.

Shift in 100 yard zero. I went to the range at lunch to verify:

I pulled some old targets from earlier this year. The last time I did a POI verification was in March. This is a bolt gun with gen 2 razor.

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Target shot as oriented.
Today with the scope set to zeros:
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There was no wind on either day and my 100 yard range is in a pit where wind has never had an effect. Orange target spot is 2".
My AR with the Steiner 1-4 was even worse:
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Center group was old one, top group was today. Both groups had scope set to zero.
 
I know the shift in the bolt gun is not huge, but it was enough to have a huge impact on a match. I missed 2 shots that were worth 10 points each, when my total score was only 45. Both missed were just left of the target.
 
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the sun playing with your eyes/optics can shift it very little...if youre shooting close to the ground with mirage it can shift it a little...one or 2 tenths, not .5 mil...otherwise ive never seen mine move

do some checks by firing with slight shadowing, tilting your head a little more on purpose, slightly more or less into the gun, and watch your zero walk around, its not hard to make it shift if you dont do everything right
 
Did you tighten the rings or anything? Mine used to move around all the time, then I found out it was me. I doubt that is what you are experiencing. The shift on the AR almost seems like someone is messing with you, if something mechanical did not fail.
 
Mine and another buddies scopes shift every time we go to the range. Another shooting buddy scope never shifts. I think its a bedding issue.

I have heard that and a friend experienced the same thing. However my rifle is an RPR so there is no bedding to speak of.

I did not touch the rings or anything but yeah the shift in the AR is really bad. In all fairness, the AR barrel is burnt out. Shooting groups double the size it used to. Ive never heard of a shot out barrel causing POI shift but I suppose that's possible. Anyone ever see that
 
Man, I have no idea. The only things I can think of that would cause a shift in your zero like that would be a scope that's moved in the mount or on the rail, a barrel that's moved somehow, difference in the ammo you're using, or... hmm I don't know what else. A damaged/malfunctioning scope maybe. But those all seem like weird things to happen to two different rifles.
 
What's our cleaning procedure? Did you clean it before you put it away? I'm sure you know this now but you should aways re-zero before going out Shooting or you could be wasting allot of rounds. If you don't run your rifle (dirty) you will have poi shift until your barrel builds it's bearing surface back that's why I only take carbon out and even after that I'll have small poi shifts and velocity changes
 
Good point and I agree completely. However I did not clean either rifle.

I might just have chalk this one up as "god wills it" and move on. I am pulling the barrel on the AR and swapping the scope on the bolt gun anyways. That was planned before any of this.

On the bright side my RPR is still a hammer.
 
Always a good idea to torque mounts in a specific order and approach final torque in 3 steps, same goes for rings. If your method differs, you may be putting a mechanical strain somewhere in the mounting system that causes the POI shift. It shouldn't shift too much in semi-normal atmospheric conditions but it can do a bit. Now add heat from the chamber and things can start to move around a bit more. Don't forget to check the rail if it is bolted to your gun.
 
Geissele on the bolt gun. Bobro on the AR. Neither were removed recently.

In my experience, varying tension on the mount will cause a lateral dispersion, not vertical. My next question is...how do you tighten your ring caps? Both at the same time, one one ring cap, and then the second ring cap, after the first is completely in place and torqued to spec?
 
I am actually pretty anal attentive about torque sequence. We had an improperly torqued part at work that caused loss of aircraft when it went so I see the sequence as a big deal. I usually torque to 5in-lb first in a cross sequence. Then repeat at 10, 15, and 20 if necessary.

I will torque all the bolts on one cap to the first setting (5) before doing the same for the second cap, that way I'm not breaking sequence on the first cap.
 
I am actually pretty anal attentive about torque sequence. We had an improperly torqued part at work that caused loss of aircraft when it went so I see the sequence as a big deal. I usually torque to 5in-lb first in a cross sequence. Then repeat at 10, 15, and 20 if necessary.

I will torque all the bolts on one cap to the first setting (5) before doing the same for the second cap, that way I'm not breaking sequence on the first cap.

I torque to angle on my cap bolts, until the final torque setting is achieved, and that is to spec. The reason for this is because when you torque to spec in increments, you will end up shifting the caps. Think about it this way. Picture top left bolt as 1, top right as 3, and bottom left as 2, and bottom right as 4.

Torque to 1 is 5#, followed by 5in-# to 4, 3, and then 2. Now, you've got compression already occuring on the tube here, and bolt 2 is going to travel further in on that 5# than the others, because all torque is, is a measure of tube compression. Bolt 2 is benefitting from 5 inches of torque, from 1,3, 4, PLUS the 5 in-lb you apply to IT.

Does this make sense? Maybe not just looking at the surface of it, but why not take feeler gauges and insert them at the corners of the ring caps, and I think you will see what I mean. Numbers are all correct, but that cap isn't sitting flat. Torque to Angle and final at torque to spec tends to result in less variance, here.

I also fully tighten one ring cap, and then move to the other ring cap. This insures that any distortion of the tube caused by tightening the rings is not magnified by a factor of two, as whatever distortion of tightening ring cap 1 occurs is null, and we only have distortion from ring cap #2.

Distortion...wtf man? Okay...you are compressing the tube, usually by about 20-40 thou of an inch in my measurements...well...what happens when you compress a tube's walls circumferentially? It either stretches, or shortens. Those are its two options. I prefer to only battle the stretch/shortening ONCE, which is why 1 ring cap is tightened at a time, so that only 1 ring cap is applying this stretch to the tube without "give" from the other, vs. BOTH ring-caps simultaneously stretching the tube without give. It is my opinion that final distortion on the tube is thus less when 1 ring cap is tightened, and then the other.

All of this is MY level of OCD and minutia, and none of that explains your absurd POI shifts. I honestly cannot explain the huge shifts you're getting unless you used different ammo, which you claim not to have.