Advanced Marksmanship serious pulse problem: UPDATE AND NEW ??pg2

ker2222

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over the last year or so I have switched out my H&S PSS stocks for McMillan A5s. Over about the same period, I have developed a serious issue with pulse. I don't know what role, if any, switching stocks has created, but........when I am prone, I can watch my crosshairs move almost a full two inches with my pulse.

Anyone have any ideas what I can do to minimize this??? I am already back in the gym to get in better shape, lower blood pressure, build more muscle mass.....


thanks
 

hibc

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Re: serious pulse problem

How low are you setting your bipod? If you raise it a little, and get your chest off the ground or at least get a little weight off of it, it should help some.
 

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    When your pulse is transferring to your rifle into the scope it usually means you're gripping the rifle too hard.

    It's coming through your grip, not your chest.
     

    ker2222

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    thanks,

    I will check that out. It will be a little ironic....I switched over to the A5 primarily because I could never get really comfortable with the pss palm swells and short verticle grip.....
     

    hibc

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I have found that if I lay too low to the ground with a lot of my weight on my chest like, right where my heart is, my heart beat moves my entire body, but if I raise my bipod up a little and get my chest/heart off the ground and my body weight off of it, it stops jerking my whole body around.
     

    vman

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    Diazepam-Infa.-M2.jpg
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    If you are shoot prone with a sling, then the sling may be restricting circulation to that arm. Shooting jackets have some serious padding in the sleeve where the sling tightens, and that singular feature may be their most effective one. I find that not only the heart has a pulse, so does the stomach soon after eating.

    Greg
     

    kansas45

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hibc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found that if I lay too low to the ground with a lot of my weight on my chest like, right where my heart is, my heart beat moves my entire body, but if I raise my bipod up a little and get my chest/heart off the ground and my body weight off of it, it stops jerking my whole body around. </div></div>

    That's it!
    I shot my Savage TRR .22 last Sunday morning & was very happy with a 1/2 MOA 100 yd group. A long towards evening I went back to my range with the same rifle. I left the Harris at the most collapsed position & laid closer to the ground. I couldn't group less than a inch. I've been thinking about this all week & I believe you just answered my question. Thanks!
     

    hibc

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kansas45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hibc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found that if I lay too low to the ground with a lot of my weight on my chest like, right where my heart is, my heart beat moves my entire body, but if I raise my bipod up a little and get my chest/heart off the ground and my body weight off of it, it stops jerking my whole body around. </div></div>

    That's it!
    I shot my Savage TRR .22 last Sunday morning & was very happy with a 1/2 MOA 100 yd group. A long towards evening I went back to my range with the same rifle. I left the Harris at the most collapsed position & laid closer to the ground. I couldn't group less than a inch. I've been thinking about this all week & I believe you just answered my question. Thanks! </div></div>

    Glad I could help!
     

    lowlight

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stay away from coffee and any caffeine like chocolate also before you go practice. MM</div></div>

    More old wives tales...

    I drink a metric shit ton of coffee, will have a red bull while i shoot and I have no issues.

    Think about it, they tell smokers not to smoke before, coffee drinkers not to drink coffee and then wonder why people are shaking and uncomfortable.

    if you smoke -- smoke, If you drink anything with caffeine, continue drinking it...

    it's more of an issue to stop, than it ever will being doing things as usual.
     

    Mike

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When your pulse is transferring to your rifle into the scope it usually means you're gripping the rifle too hard.

    It's coming through your grip, not your chest.</div></div>

    Frank,
    Is it possible you could be transferring your pulse when you press your cheek weld or do you always find it's grip pressure?
     

    Shane C.

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I agree with LL.

    However, dropping bad habits should help (don't know for sure, I'm not a quiter), but don't do it within several weeeks of the desired result.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    Mike it can come from a variety of places...

    Too much pressure is number one, but also when people see their heartbeat it is usually because they have too much air in their lungs and their heartbeat is bouncing off their lungs... that whole half a breathe thing. Or holding their breathe.

    I suppose you can get it from too much cheek pressure, but grip is more often than not the issue.

    if you're feeling it off the ground, its air in the lungs.
     

    Mike

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike it can come from a variety of places...

    Too much pressure is number one, but also when people see their heartbeat it is usually because they have too much air in their lungs and their heartbeat is bouncing off their lungs... that whole half a breathe thing. Or holding their breathe.

    I suppose you can get it from too much cheek pressure, but grip is more often than not the issue.

    if you're feeling it off the ground, its air in the lungs. </div></div>

    Thanks Frank
     

    zinny

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stay away from coffee and any caffeine like chocolate also before you go practice. MM</div></div>

    More old wives tales...

    I drink a metric shit ton of coffee, will have a red bull while i shoot and I have no issues.

    Think about it, they tell smokers not to smoke before, coffee drinkers not to drink coffee and then wonder why people are shaking and uncomfortable.

    if you smoke -- smoke, If you drink anything with caffeine, continue drinking it...

    it's more of an issue to stop, than it ever will being doing things as usual. </div></div>

    that's not an old wives tale at all, everybody has a different degree of tolerance towards different types of stimulants and stimulants in general. while you and others around you may not feel the affects of coffee and chocolates, that does not mean that other people will be affected (or lack there of) in the same way. slightly off topic, but at least i felt necessary.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    Ah it is,

    Read what is written, of course if you don't smoke you shouldn't start, but if you have been smoking everyday for 10 years, how wise is it to not smoke that morning you are going to shoot?

    As well,if you don't drink Red Bulls, it wouldn't be very smart to try one that day, but if everyday at 2pm you have a Red Bull, why stop because you are shooting.

    It's the difference between putting things in context and making blanket statements like Coffee will make you shake. Sure if you normally are not a big coffee drinker to begin with, but isn't that more common sense, than a rule everyone should be following?

    The point is about sticking to routine and not changing routines simply because you are shooting a gun. You don't hold you breathe to bang in a nail but plenty of people hold their breathe to shoot, why because they think it makes them steadier, when in fact it immediately effects them in a negative way. Still, you hear, take a deep breathe, let it half way out and hold, then fire. Meanwhile, their eyes are fluttering, their head is shaking and 20 sec later the still haven't fired.

    Common sense is all you need to guide you.
     

    Graham

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Common sense is all you need to guide you.</div></div>In that case I'm in real trouble.
    laugh.gif
     

    High Binder

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stay away from coffee and any caffeine like chocolate also before you go practice. MM </div></div>

    Never been a problem for me...
     

    gitrdone44

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    In 1986 i started feeling a throbbing in my heart after 4 years i was finally diagnosed with mitral valve prolapse. Dr said he could give me beta blockers but i said well i lived with it 4 years so now that i knew what was causing the throbbing i would be ok. Every time my heart beat it was hell to shoot. The Dr told me after i got older the valve would not be as strong and should help on the throbbing he was right.
     

    zinny

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    i did read what was written, i completely understand what you are saying, i do believe that your statement makes perfect sense. i am not refuting your point that sticking to routine is key.

    from what i see our differences lie in our interpretation of mexican match's statement. while you interpreted that whom ever that should stay away from coffee and chocolate was already an avid coffee drinker and choclate (similar to yourself), i thought the complete opposite being someone not accustomed to drinking coffee and choclate.

    although you did refute this point in the second post by stating that it would not be very smart to try such things on the day you start shoot, the fact is people are not always logical and yes some may very well have done such a thing thought some odd thought process of theirs.

    rereading my own statement, as i've said, "while you may have" a higher tolerance to caffeine and other stimulants that is definitely not true for the entire population. therefore staying away from coffee and chocolate for those that normally don't consume such products is not a "wives tale.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I put the 'skip the coffee' idea to the test. It didn't help; but then again, we're talking about <span style="font-style: italic">me</span>.
     

    ker2222

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I smoked for years. When I shot, I smoked before and had no problems. WHen I quit, I had problems for a while and now that its been two years or so, no problems with shakes. Well, obviously I have problems but I can't blame the cigs!!!
     

    pupdawg

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    All I know is that shooting a semi-auto (namely the AR platform) with consistency is frustrating for me.... coffee or no coffee.
    wink.gif
     

    ker2222

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    so..........I think I have multiple problems....

    pulse is still there even when I take my hand off rifle....its less, but still there. SO, I assume I have two points of pulse with the worse being too tight a grip. That is easily fixable. Any ideas on second? Any ideas why it would be some much worse with the A5 than the PSS???
     

    trilogymac

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    When I shoot my T2 with an Eagle stock pack, the "weld" feels just right but the pulse is BAD. Had to take off my cheekpiece, place my face on the stock with the same force as when I used the pack and lift my head up until I get the right site picture and the pulse stops. Kind of wierd but it is the only thing I have found that works and comes close to being consistent. My pulse never comes thru the grip.
     

    kansas45

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I have been following this discussion with great interest. I have found that I suffer a little bit from just about everything that has been mentioned so far. With little time for practice, I have seen an improvement using these things to my advantage. The only big change I have made is getting lower to the ground. I have been able to put the legs in in the lowest & the first notch on the Harris 6x9. I feel this has taken some strain off of my neck & shoulders & has helped lower my heart beat & improve my breathing somewhat.
    Either that or I am becoming more relaxed at the controls. It looks like I'll have some free time early in the morning to shoot some targets for the rimfire match. I'll be able to see if these things have really helped. Thanks to all of you for posting in this thread.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    The stock weld must be muscularly relaxed, meaning the full weight of the head resting, not lifted from, or pressed down on the comb. It must be this way to assure consistent perspective of aim, as well as consistent control over the rifle from trigger pull to bullet exit. Pulse is about tension, not having a muscularly relaxed head. Usually, an adjustment of both butt-to-shoulder and stock weld will be required to get the neck relaxed enough to where pluse is no longer felt.
     

    kansas45

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I'm gonna' grab a big cup of coffee, a Mountain Dew, a Snickers & a fine cigar & head to the range for some practice!
    laugh.gif
     

    lowlight

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kansas45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm gonna' grab a big cup of coffee, a Mountain Dew, a Snickers & a fine cigar & head to the range for some practice!
    laugh.gif
    </div></div>

    Make the coffee a Blast (3X caffeine of regular) and that Mountain Dew an AMP, and you described my pre shot ritual pretty much every day.

    Although I normally opt for a 1000 Grand bar, it's like a breakfast cereal, chocolate covered rice krispies
     

    Bushmaster7

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    As Frank can attest, having sex immediately before or during precision shooting can have a major effect on heart rate and accuracy as well.
     

    Graham

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... sex improves accuracy, or so I have heard. </div></div> Only if you know where the target is.
    sick.gif
    laugh.gif
     

    ker2222

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The stock weld must be muscularly relaxed, meaning the full weight of the head resting, not lifted from, or pressed down on the comb. It must be this way to assure consistent perspective of aim, as well as consistent control over the rifle from trigger pull to bullet exit. Pulse is about tension, not having a muscularly relaxed head. Usually, an adjustment of both butt-to-shoulder and stock weld will be required to get the neck relaxed enough to where pluse is no longer felt. </div></div>



    thanks sterling.....again.

    this....I think is what i have going on now that I have dealt with the grip issue. I shot the PSS for so long that I had a built a cheekpiece (foam and tape) that fit exactly and that I was very comfortable with. I think I just need some more time and maybe a bit of foam and tape on the A5 and I will get comfortable as well.
     

    kansas45

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was the M. O. for Francisco Scaramanga... sex improves accuracy, or so I have heard.
    </div></div>

    OH BOY! Just wait till I tell the "Old Broad" about this!
    grin.gif
     

    crazy bay

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    This is an interesting thread. I highly doubt its has to do with arterial pressure in your cheek. There are no major arteries in that body region that have high enough systolic pressure to move you around. Then again, it could be a number of things. Your carotid (side of neck) could possible be being slightly 'pinched' because of an awkward neck position. I dont know how well of shape your in, but I could see this being plausible if you have fat buildup in your neck.

    As frank said, there could pressure in your hand as well, but you seem to have tested that already...

    As some others above have said, its possible that it could be from thoracic or abdominopelvic arteries.

    But maybe.....If you have high blood pressure, inside the skull you have a 'pool' of blood called the Circle of Willis. It is around the area of the optic nerves, and if your blood pressure it to high it may just be putting pressure on them giving the illusion of movement.

    Basically, I dont know. It could be a number of things. If you are in good shape, its probably more to do with your position somewhere or use of something like a sling.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    If he is thinking the pressure is coming from his cheek, chances are he is holding his breathe like someone said... and he is seeing the bounce and feeling his pulse because he is not breathing.

    Lot of people thing they are breathing, but many don't and simply hold their breathe and have no concept of time so they hold it much longer than they should, then doing it over to try and steady the rifle, it only compound the problem.

    If he sees it with an padded cheek piece, it's something on his end...

    As Sterling said a relaxed steady position will not create that much transfer from you to the rifle, however holding your breathe will create the illusion of a pulse problem.

    That old school, take a deep breathe, let it half way out, doesn't work.. you have to breathe. You don't hold your breathe driving a car, or banging a nail, don't hold your breathe shooting either.
     

    ker2222

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    as this thread goes on, its kinda embarrassing being the object in an object lesson. maybe humbling is a better word. Not only am i learning stuff but hopefully others can learn from my apparent horrible technique...So, for the sake of the cause and my own improvement....here's the scoop so far:

    1. I am using a padded cheekpiece so its definitely on my end.
    2. Played around today at range, got into position---prone and on the bench--pulled hand off rifle and pulled shoulder out of contact with stock. The pulse is definately coming from my cheek and stock connection....

    I have named it "face pulse."

    3. I haven't ever had this problem before. However, I went from shooting daily or weekly to monthly and then to having a couple of months where I didn't shoot at all. The problem has crept in during that slowdown. I was quick to blame the swapping of stocks, but I think that is just coincidental to the slacking in my shooting schedule.

    4. While the face pulse is new.......I have long battled with my breathing. And combining what sterling and frank have said gives me what I should work on I guess---getting my breathing relaxed and my cheek-weld relaxed.

    thanks for the advice....let me know anyone thinks of anything else....I will update the thread as I work on the breathing.
     

    gmihalis

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    Mr Ker

    Go as low as you can go. Let the earth hold the rifle. Your cheek, trigger finger and non shooting hand (folded back under the rear of your butstock) should transfer little to no heart beat.
     

    jholler

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    Finally something I may be able to help with. There are multiple branches of the external carotid artery in your face that can be directly palpated and can therefore transfer the pulse pressure to the rifle. I've seen and felt it myself. I fabricated my own cheek piece with harder rubber on bottom with softer foam on top. I then placed my "cheek bone" directly on top of the pad with as little "meat" between bone and gun as possible. Bone won't transfer the pulse pressure wave. It was different at first but for me is reproducible and comfortable. Everyone's anatomy is not necessarily identical but this may work.
     

    pappy42

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    I notice my pulse when I turn the scope up past 16x. Seems to be more noticeable as the power goes up.

    Or maybe the mirage, dust devils or tumbleweeds between me and the target makes my pulse rate sky rocket.
     

    Shady_Jay

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    Increased heart beat pulse is an ergonomic issue. Eye relief and LOP.
     

    Shady_Jay

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trilogymac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I shoot my T2 with an Eagle stock pack, the "weld" feels just right but the pulse is BAD. Had to take off my cheekpiece, place my face on the stock with the same force as when I used the pack and lift my head up until I get the right site picture and the pulse stops. Kind of wierd but it is the only thing I have found that works and comes close to being consistent. My pulse never comes thru the grip.

    </div></div>

    Bill, the only time I have ever had pulse issues is when I shot your rifle set up for you. You complained of it and when I got behind it it was like thump-wiggle, thump-wiggle, thump-wiggle. It's ergo, bro.
     

    ker2222

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trilogymac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I shoot my T2 with an Eagle stock pack, the "weld" feels just right but the pulse is BAD. Had to take off my cheekpiece, place my face on the stock with the same force as when I used the pack and lift my head up until I get the right site picture and the pulse stops. Kind of wierd but it is the only thing I have found that works and comes close to being consistent. My pulse never comes thru the grip.

    </div></div>

    Bill, the only time I have ever had pulse issues is when I shot your rifle set up for you. You complained of it and when I got behind it it was like thump-wiggle, thump-wiggle, thump-wiggle. It's ergo, bro. </div></div>


    lop too long or too short??? eye relief too close?? or too far
     

    Shady_Jay

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    Re: serious pulse problem

    Most times it is too long of LOP. Especially with a new chassis system. I don't know why but a lot of guys think they need to use every spacer because they paid for them. They start out the day with their neck stretched and heavy heartbeat pulse. Usually around 2pm they finally consider taking the necessary spacers out and I usually get a response like, "Oh, yeah, that is a lot better."