shot prone for the first time today...dude.........WTF

[corey4]

boy, do i suck!

from a bench, at 300yds (this is all the further my range goes to), i have an honest average group size of 1.5-2". nothing to write home about, but kinda respectable.

what i did was confirm my zero at 100 and my come-ups for 200 and 300 from my bench readings to the new position prone results. my zero was on, my 200yd come-up went down from .6^ to .4^. my 300yd come-up went down as well, from 1.6^ to 1.2-1.4^ variation. i'm not sure what this is all about with the .2 variation, and why it changed at all.

i have a class coming up this weekend, and the instructor said all shooting is from prone. so i figured i'd give it a shot (haha, get it ). today, i probably spent at least an hour laying on the living room floor dry firing and getting used to that position. all was fine and dandy. i had a good sight picture, check weld, had the rifle tucked into the shoulder; everything felt nice and cozy.

get to the range, and all hell broke loose. i don't get it. i couldn't get comfy at all. i kept throwing shots all over the place. nothing felt right, not even close. i did have a 1.5" group, but i am not sure how that happened. last time i went to the range, i fired 120 shots from the bench with consistent groups. my shoulder wasn't sore at all. not even a hint of discomfort. today, i only shot 60 rounds. holy smokes is my shoulder killing me.

i was only shooting 3 shot groups instead of 5 to conserve ammo.

equipment for the inquiring minds:
308 5R 20" (took the suppressor off due to erratic behavior. last few times out i had way too many fliers that i know were not me. not very consistent. it is a YHM SS QD. i have a TBAC 30-P1 due sometime in august thru october. i can't wait!)
vortex viper pst FFP MIL 6-24x50
manners T3 DBM with mini chassis
atlas bipod
FGMM 168
homemade squeeze bag with old socks and plastic pellets

so.....on to my question. WTF!?

thanks fellas.

 

[medic727]

Let me get this straight. You're going to a class THIS weekend and you've just started to shoot prone NOW? What type of surface were you shooting off of? I can pretty much guess that the rifle was hopping all over the place when you fired. The way a rifle shoots off a bench and from the prone are 2 completely different animals. Think about the time you spent working on and improving your bench technique, it'll take at least that long or longer to fine tune your prone. Shooting off of a bench will, for agruments sake, have rather consistent properties. Shooting prone adds in variables like what is the surface you're shooting off of, is your bipod on your mat, after each shot are the bipod feet digging in more if not on the mat, what is your body position behind the rifle, etc., etc., etc. I can guarantee that your cheek weld has changed, which changes the angle of your head, which changes your eye alignment. Also, your length of pull may be different or require a change of the cheekpiece height.

I really don't mean to be harsh, but precision shooting from the prone position is the foundation from which all other standard positions are developed. Your class goal should be to a rock solid prone. It may look like just laying down behind the rifle, but it's a lot more complex than that.

 

[Erud]

Hmmm, something doesn't sound right here. You mean you spent a whole hour prone in your living room and it did not result in a complete and utter mastery of the position?!? I'd say there is definitely something wrong with your rifle. You are going to need to scrap that piece of junk and buy a much more expensive setup if you want to be any good.

 

[Drifter™]

Do you use a bipod or bags from the bench?

 

[corey4]

erud, i wasn't insinuating that an hour of dry fire in the living room was going to make me an expert.

medic, yes this weekend. i was shooting off of concrete, and the bipod was not on the mat. the mat i was using is one of those thick foam exercise mats that my wife bought 10 years ago that never got used for its intended purpose. and yes, the bipod was all over the place.

I can guarantee that your cheek weld has changed, which changes the angle of your head, which changes your eye alignment. Also, your length of pull may be different or require a change of the cheekpiece height.

this is why i spent some time in the living room. to try and determine if i had to change anything. everything felt hunky-dory at home.

 

[corey4]

Do you use a bipod or bags from the bench?

atlas bipod

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Reputable instructors at the class?


IMHO three things:

1. You don't know how to get into a balanced and solid prone position. OK - you're smart, you'll figure it out fairly quickly.
2. Get your gear squared away for class, then get your head right. Repeat after me - Our's is not the only way, but another way. Translation - attend the class with an open mind and a closed mouth, carry a note pad and a pen, write things down to reflect on later. Let these guys teach you a proper prone position. It would be far more productive for you to come to class with an open mind, knowledgable that you have an issue, and therefore receptive to instruction; than try and cobble together something at the 11th hour based the opinions of 10 random folks and your bathroom mirror.
3. Contact Chuck on the board and get an IOTA, come back from your class and work on grooving your position and your trigger pull by reviewing your notes and your log book.

 

[djskit]

If you are taking an introductory precision rifle class, building a proper prone firing postion should be one of the first topics covered. Don't sweat it, that's why you are taking a class - to learn these things.

 

[medic727]

To the OP: a thick pad is not what you want your bipod or rear bag on. You gotta be comfy, but you still kinda' wanna' feel the ground under you. Unless you can get a standard mat from Midway in time, you're better off using a piece of carpet.

 

[M40_A1]

To the OP: a thick pad is not what you want your bipod or rear bag on.

According to his second post, it sounds like his bipod was directly on concrete. I'm not a bipod shooter, but wouldn't having the bipod directly in contact with such a hard surface throw shots erratically?

 

[ZombieMonkey]

According to his second post, it sounds like his bipod was directly on concrete. I'm not a bipod shooter, but wouldn't having the bipod directly in contact with such a hard surface throw shots erratically?

No, he needs to build his position properly and he should not have any more issues. A bipod on a hard surface shouldn't be a problem at all. Shooting prone should not be very physically taxing for him, he says that he has shot 120 rounds in a session from a bench, but 60 rounds from prone left him sore? That there alone should give you a good indication of the problem.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I learned how to build a good prone position independently; but, I don't recommend going about it that way. Having a highly qualified coach better assures development of consistency from the start. Attempting to learn without coaching the shooter cannot be certain the position is proper since even when it is proper it still may not initially feel comfortable. That's a big problem.

 

[corey4]

Reputable instructors at the class?


IMHO three things:

1. You don't know how to get into a balanced and solid prone position. OK - you're smart, you'll figure it out fairly quickly.
2. Get your gear squared away for class, then get your head right. Repeat after me - Our's is not the only way, but another way. Translation - attend the class with an open mind and a closed mouth, carry a note pad and a pen, write things down to reflect on later. Let these guys teach you a proper prone position. It would be far more productive for you to come to class with an open mind, knowledgable that you have an issue, and therefore receptive to instruction; than try and cobble together something at the 11th hour based the opinions of 10 random folks and your bathroom mirror.
3. Contact Chuck on the board and get an IOTA, come back from your class and work on grooving your position and your trigger pull by reviewing your notes and your log book.

this is the guy teaching the class -----> Vapor Trail Tactical - We have two training sites.* One in Kinston, N.C.**Our newest facility is located in*Saxton, Pa.*****Email us for more information [email][email protected][/email]

good advice for keeping an open mind. being a USA hockey coach and owning a business were i train people, i can't stand the know-it-alls that argue with you when you are taking the time and effort to teach someone a skill that they obviously don't have. i feel in order to be a good leader, you have to be a good follower first.

as far as getting the gear straight, i feel confident that i am good to go. i just need someone to show me the finer points of what i am doing wrong. i figure it is going to be cheaper in the long run instead of blowing ammo and trying to guess what i might be doing wrong. it is not that i am a bad shot (except for prone! lol). i am ready for the next level so to speak. i have gotten myself to were i am and plateaued.

If you are taking an introductory precision rifle class, building a proper prone firing postion should be one of the first topics covered. Don't sweat it, that's why you are taking a class - to learn these things.

it is actually his level 2 class PSR2. when i spoke with him on the phone, he felt i can skip PSR1.

To the OP: a thick pad is not what you want your bipod or rear bag on. You gotta be comfy, but you still kinda' wanna' feel the ground under you. Unless you can get a standard mat from Midway in time, you're better off using a piece of carpet.

good point. i have some old fleece blankets i will take instead. i am leaving tomorrow morning so i definitely wont have it in time.

According to his second post, it sounds like his bipod was directly on concrete. I'm not a bipod shooter, but wouldn't having the bipod directly in contact with such a hard surface throw shots erratically?

correct, directly on concrete.

No, he needs to build his position properly and he should not have any more issues. A bipod on a hard surface shouldn't be a problem at all. Shooting prone should not be very physically taxing for him, he says that he has shot 120 rounds in a session from a bench, but 60 rounds from prone left him sore? That there alone should give you a good indication of the problem.

not only the soreness, but i was fighting the rifle to get a good sight picture.

 

[WaltHer]

One other factor that may be playing into your stuation is a subtle or not so subtle change in eye relief between the 2 positions resulting in a difficulty with sight picture, and a parallax problem. Hopefully your instructor will work you through these and the above mentioned issues.

 

[Doc68]

Get rid of the tacticool bipod and go to a sandbag. It's a lot more steady inn the prone. Just my .02 worth.

 

[Doc68]

Hmmm, something doesn't sound right here. You mean you spent a whole hour prone in your living room and it did not result in a complete and utter mastery of the position?!? I'd say there is definitely something wrong with your rifle. You are going to need to scrap that piece of junk and buy a much more expensive setup if you want to be any good.

I'll take the rifle though!

 

[timelinex]

Your rifle setup is not at fault here, so don't go changing your bipod and such. Your Atlas bipod is considered one of the best in the business, and does well on everything from grass, dirt, wood and concrete.

I'm not sure if your just over thinking things.... Lay the rifle down with the rear in a bag. Square off behind the rifle on your knees. Make sure your perpendicular to the rifle and your knees a bit more than shoulder width apart. Now just literally drop forward and land with your cheek on the stock. You should be completely comfortable and have a good sight picture. If your too far forward or behind, start over on your knees and move a little forward or backwards. Then just kick your elbows to the sides, with your left hand on the bag and right on the trigger. Make sure your shoulders are still perpendicular to the rifle. That's it. You should be comfortable.

Something to keep in mind is bipod height. The lower the better, but only to a point. If your fit or skinny then you shouldn't have an issue being on the Atlas' lowest setting. Otherwise don't be afraid to bring it up a notch or even two if need be. Shooting in an uncomfortably low position can causes many more problems than the advantage of a lower position.

Lastly, make sure your scope is positioned correctly. Prone puts your head in a different position on the stock than bench or positional shooting. So if you catch yourself needing to stretch or squash your neck, move your scope, not your head. Or at least play with your magnification to give a tighter or looser eye box. If your getting shadowing because your too far from the scope then zoom out and it will give your a bit more eye relief. That is just a temporary solution though, it's best move the scope forward or backwards on the rail.

 

[corey4]

One other factor that may be playing into your stuation is a subtle or not so subtle change in eye relief between the 2 positions resulting in a difficulty with sight picture, and a parallax problem. Hopefully your instructor will work you through these and the above mentioned issues.

i hope so too. what i don't get is when i was doing dry fire practice in the living room, everything was fine. but at the range, it all went to shit. this is why i spent some time on the floor at home, to see if i had to change anything. nothing seemed to be out of the ordinary. we will see though.

 

[corey4]

Your rifle setup is not at fault here, so don't go changing your Bipod (whI'mich is the best in the business) and such.

I'm not sure if your just over thinking things.... Lay the rifle down with the rear in a bag. Square off behind the rifle on your knees. Make sure your perpendicular to the rifle and your knees a bit more than shoulder width apart. Now just literally drop forward and land with your cheek on the stock. You should be completely comfortable and have a good sight picture. If your too far forward or behind, start over on your knees and move a little forward or backwards. Then just kick your elbows to the sides, with your left hand on the bag and right on the trigger. Make sure your shoulders are still perpendicular to the rifle. That's it. You should be comfortable.

Something to keep in mind is bipod height. The lower the better, but only to a point. If your fit or skinny then you shouldn't have an issue being on the Atlas' lowest setting. Otherwise don't be afraid to bring it up a notch or even two if need be. Shooting in an uncomfortably low position can causes many pre problems than the advantage of a lower position.

Lastly, make sure your scope is positioned correctly. Prone puts your head in a different position on the stock than bench or positional shooting. So if you catch yourself needing to stretch or squash your neck, move your scope, not your head. Or at least play with your magnification to give a tighter or looser eye box. If your too far from the scope then zoom out and it will give your a bit more eye relief.

after talking to a few buddies, my body position is way out of line, as y'all have suspected.

i am by no means fit or skinny. i F-ed my back up 2.5 years ago and put on 50lbs and haven't done squat in the last 1.5 years. i laid on the floor 24/7 for 8 months before the insurance company finally let me have surgery a year ago and am just now getting back into my normal life style. it is amazing at how much strength and stamina you lose in so little time. but anywho...

on to the relation of bore height to ground/target height and power setting, some things that i just thought about. at home, i had the scope on the lowest setting, 6. and i was just looking at a plain wall, and out of the front storm door at objects; rocks on the road, cigarette butts in the gravel, different spots on my truck, practicing breathing, paying attention to the reticle, practice trigger squeeze etc. keep in mind, everything was at approximately eye level or below. at the range, from bore to target, i am looking UP 4' from where i have to hang the target on the target backer.

as far as the atlas, after 10 seconds of it being on my rifle, i liked it a lot more than the harris and sand bags. i can't really explain it, but it just seemed more intuitive to me in some weird way. i dunno, it is one of those things i can't put into words. when i asked the instructor about the atlas, he said he didn't care for them. i bought one anyways. after reading reviews and watching videos, it seemed like something i might like. if not, i tried it and it would get sold. i am taking my harris with me to the class anyways.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,
Please answer this question: What is the purpose of any good position? I ask it since it appears you do not know the purpose of a good position. Comfort is just an indicator of having built the position properly. It reminds me of someone on a scavenger hunt who lost his item list and now needs to find it first.

 

[corey4]

OP, Please answer this question: What is the purpose of any good position?

being that i do not know the exact answer you are looking for, i will answer that monday morning when i return!

i'm off to class. will check back in monday.

thanks to everyone for the help so far. it is much appreciated.

 

[NAVYJACKDOC]

If you are taking an introductory precision rifle class, building a proper prone firing postion should be one of the first topics covered. Don't sweat it, that's why you are taking a class - to learn these things.

This was my thoughts as well...I'm sure they'll cover/instruct all of the fundamentals of LR shooting from the prone.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Corey,

It is just fundamentals of prone shooting. They will cover it in the class. Good work in signing up for the class. Good work in admitting you do not know everything and excepting everyone to be wrong. Good work in getting good equipment. Your equipment is not the issue.

Basically what I am saying is, keep up the good work. Eventually you will be a VERY good shot. The only way to improve is to admit you do not know everything. Learning starts with an admission of such.

Let us know how you liked the class and how much you learned.

 

[Ultraman550]

Get rid of the tacticool bipod and go to a sandbag. It's a lot more steady inn the prone. Just my .02 worth.

You really think bipods are "tacticool"?

 

[Doc68]

You really think bipods are "tacticool"?

For certain applications yes. You don't need to always shoot off a bipod. So if a sandbag works better then use it. I have a bipod on my gun, but take it off most of the time to shoot off a bag. Better accuracy for me.

 

[Deadshot2]

Take a few moments and visit accurateshooter.com Check out the article called "bugholes with a bipod" by "Froggy".


He offers some good tips on how to keep the bipod from bouncing around while shooting prone.

 

[Bender]

I would assume that a properly set up and "loaded" bi-pod is way better than shooting off a sand bag just for controlled recoil and little to no muzzle jump if used correctly. Am I wrong?

 

[M40_A1]

I would assume that a properly set up and "loaded" bi-pod is way better than shooting off a sand bag just for controlled recoil and little to no muzzle jump if used correctly. Am I wrong?

I don't shoot bipod, but I can say there are different ways to shoot off a bag. Anywhere from "free recoil" shooting, to shooting "tight". I tend to shoot tight, which gives more recoil control. By "tight" I mean the rifle is pulled straight back into my shoulder using my shooting hand with a fair amount of tension. Consistency is king.

 

[Bender]

How much muzzle rise do you have? Do you have to re acquire the target to see your hit? I nam new at this as well.... I didn't know what I didn't know.

 

[M40_A1]

How much muzzle rise do you have? Do you have to re acquire the target to see your hit? I nam new at this as well.... I didn't know what I didn't know.

Muzzle rise with my heavy .308 is minimal enough to be back on target to see splash at 500 yards. A bag is so simple you can experiment yourself at no additional expense by filling a back pack and shooting off of it to get a feel for it. Don't over stuff, though, just create a cradle for the rifle to rest in.

 

[Ultraman550]

OP, at least you weren't one of the many who blame the rifle. Take it for what its worth especially since my shooting skills don't even compare to many others on this board but once I lined up perfectly behind my rifle so that the kinetic energy of the blast went directly backwards in a straight line my bipod did not hop anymore. I also made sure my cheek weld and sight picture were melded perfectly together with my position in prone. I wasn't shooting off of concrete but I shoot off of what we have called caliche which is a very hardened surface of soil located throughout the las vegas valley. It's so hard that many times drilling or digging through it cannot be done without great expense. You don't suck, you just haven't trained enough....yet.

 

[M40_A1]

I also made sure my cheek weld and sight picture were melded perfectly together with my position in prone.

Thank you. I forgot to mention that a tight position includes firm cheek pressure as well.

 

[corey4]

so i am a week late checking in, sorry for the delay.

the class went great. he worked with me on friday to get me up to speed. basically, i have been doing everything wrong for the last 20 years! lol he took a picture of me when i was prone, and my body was twisted in all different directions. he got me squared up behind the rifle like you should be. i still need to work on the fundamentals, but at least i have more knowledge.

i still need to work on my recoil management. more times than not, my bipod would jump. at least i know what to look for, know why, and have a good idea of how to fix it with practice.

the class was more of a run-n-gun type format doing what he called "field shooting". we didn't just lay there for 2 days shooting groups. we were smacking steel from 200 to 820 yds. it was awesome.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Did you find out what the purpose of any good position is and how to properly build it?

 

[corey4]

i know how to build a proper shooting position now. he had us shooting prone, standing, kneeling, sitting, and off a damn bungee cord for our support. the purpose? i am going to guess to be able manage recoil to see your hits/splash, get back on target right away, etc.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

i know how to build a proper shooting position now. he had us shooting prone, standing, kneeling, sitting, and off a damn bungee cord for our support. the purpose? i am going to guess to be able manage recoil to see your hits/splash, get back on target right away, etc.

Thanks for playing along with me, you're a good sport. The purpose of any good position is to support sight alignment and trigger control. The idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position using bone and artificial support; thereafter, adjusting the natural point of aim for a muscularly relaxed position, which gives the impression of a steady hold. Keeping this objective in mind makes the process of building a good position more meaningful, in other words, knowing the objective makes it easy to discern when achieved. When a shooter does something he is told to do without a basis of understanding for why it's important the shooter may just go through motions that look good but do not achieve the desired result. For example, you could end up comfortable but unsteady, or steady but uncomfortable. Also, while seeing splash might be a result of having a proper position it is not the purpose of it; and, making it the purpose could undermine support for sight alignment and trigger control if they become incidental to our process.

If you accept the purpose as being to support sight alignment and trigger control, then what of recoil management? I use the term recoil resistance instead of management and what you want to do is make it consistent by controlling the rifle consistently from shot to shot. Making recoil resistance consistent better assures the angle/arc created from line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit is more similar than dissimilar from shot to shot The more similar the less angular error. This becomes really important when shooting at long range. At any rate, to make the angle/arc more similar the five factors of a steady position must be placed in a relationship between gun and ground which is consistent. The five factors are: elbows, grip, non-firing hand, stockweld, and butt-to-shoulder. I believe making recoil resistance consistent is what transforms good shooters into great shooters. Muscle memory development from dry firing in position can help you get there.

 

[AndroCorpInd]

Hey bro I am right there with you. The first couple times I shot prone just plain sucked as did my shooting. It is a completely diff animal than shooting off the bench. In my opinion if you cant shoot out in the field in real world scenarios you arent a real shooter.

I have a lot of respect for you for outright admitting how bad ya sucked and your desire to learn the right way says alot about your character. I have little doubt that in time you will be a great shooter because you seem to have your head on right.

Keep practicing off your bipod and in time you will find that you will be more accurate with it than you would ever be shooting off of a sand bag. The last time i checked lugging around a sand bag in your pack wasnt the smartest idea.

"Tacticool bipod" .....REALLY dude???what an idiot

 

[M40_A1]

OTOH, if you have a pack you don't need a sand bag OR a bipod

 

[remr5]

IMHO I would leave the suppressor on if thats what you are going to use. Getting straight behind the gun is a big factor also. My 5r and YHM can, shoots 3/8 @ 100 yd all day long. Dry fire drill will help you out. If you mount the gun, close your eyes and open them you should still be on target. Maybe your eye relief, cheek weld and position all need some tuning. Good luck

 

[Icewater]

Check out this vid, I'm sure it will help give some pointers

USMC Fundamentals long range shooting intruction by Caylen Wojcik - YouTube

 

[corey4]

I have a lot of respect for you for outright admitting how bad ya sucked and your desire to learn the right way says alot about your character. I have little doubt that in time you will be a great shooter because you seem to have your head on right.

thanks man!

IMHO I would leave the suppressor on if thats what you are going to use. Getting straight behind the gun is a big factor also. My 5r and YHM can, shoots 3/8 @ 100 yd all day long. Dry fire drill will help you out. If you mount the gun, close your eyes and open them you should still be on target. Maybe your eye relief, cheek weld and position all need some tuning. Good luck

i am having mixed results with the can. when i was shooting today, after the can and barrel were hot, i noticed a good bit of wiggle in the QD. after it cooled, i was tight again. i dunno. i can't wait til my TBAC is out of jail.

on the other hand...

went out today to apply what i learned. i went back to my mcree chassis from the manners and spent about an hour fine tuning everything. the manners is nice and i will miss the traditional stock, but i can live with a pistol grip. (see this thread for reference --->http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...1113-hs-precision-stock-vs-mcree-chassis.html) i am able to adjust everything. got my LOP to where i don't feel crunched on the rifle, the cheek riser so my head just falls right onto the reticle. now i have i an actual NPOA. i wasn't fighting with the rifle to get cozy. it was a pretty big relief actually! lol i wasn't fighting with the scope on the eye relief to get rid of the tunnel/shadows/whatever the actual term is. after i finally got dialed in, my groups were .5-.75" at 100yds. my usual group size. and i always had the one stupid flyer out of every single 5 shot group that i always get. so, 4 shots at .5-.75" and one way the fuck out there. technically all rounds count, so i guess i actually have 1" groups. . then i move out to 300yds. my come ups from my class, from my data book from impact data books that has a cheat sheet says i should be at 1.4^. dialed it in, and i was .6 high. it was a good 3 shot group too. 1.5", not sure how i pulled that off, but i'll take it! it was strung at a 45* angle, so i am guessing it was my breathing? not being squared up behind the rifle causing the 45* angle? i thought it was strange to be that high. double checked everything. parallax, check. correct come up, check. hmmmm.....came down .6. shot twice. now i was .6 low. WTF. shot some more to try and figure it out. i ended up having a come up value of .9. i have some of those self healing orange foam targets that i hang on a string that i shoot at 300. the are about 4"x6". after i finally got dialed in, i went 7 for 10. i was starting to get frustrated so i left. i was already there for 3.5 hours. i think i mind fucked myself though. instead of focusing on my fundamentals, i was wondering why my come up changed and it was bothering me.

my goal today was to get the rifle sorted out to fit me better and get zeroed. still not in complete control of the rifle during recoil, but it is better, much better. shot 60 rounds today, and i am not sore at all like i was the first time. everything was much better today. i will try to make it out tomorrow with a clear mind and try 300 again and work on my breathing, trigger pull, follow thru, etc etc etc.

 

[corey4]

Thanks for playing along with me, you're a good sport. The purpose of any good position is to support sight alignment and trigger control. The idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position using bone and artificial support; thereafter, adjusting the natural point of aim for a muscularly relaxed position, which gives the impression of a steady hold. Keeping this objective in mind makes the process of building a good position more meaningful, in other words, knowing the objective makes it easy to discern when achieved. When a shooter does something he is told to do without a basis of understanding for why it's important the shooter may just go through motions that look good but do not achieve the desired result. For example, you could end up comfortable but unsteady, or steady but uncomfortable. Also, while seeing splash might be a result of having a proper position it is not the purpose of it; and, making it the purpose could undermine support for sight alignment and trigger control if they become incidental to our process.

If you accept the purpose as being to support sight alignment and trigger control, then what of recoil management? I use the term recoil resistance instead of management and what you want to do is make it consistent by controlling the rifle consistently from shot to shot. Making recoil resistance consistent better assures the angle/arc created from line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit is more similar than dissimilar from shot to shot The more similar the less angular error. This becomes really important when shooting at long range. At any rate, to make the angle/arc more similar the five factors of a steady position must be placed in a relationship between gun and ground which is consistent. The five factors are: elbows, grip, non-firing hand, stockweld, and butt-to-shoulder. I believe making recoil resistance consistent is what transforms good shooters into great shooters. Muscle memory development from dry firing in position can help you get there.

no problem playing along. it is only going to make me better. there is lots of wisdom in your post. very deep for my hillbilly ass. i had to read it a few times, but i get what you are saying. although my recoil management/resistance is much better, i am still up and to the left. at 100yds, maybe 1'. before, it was FEET off. i talking 3-4.

when you said, "...The five factors are: elbows, grip, non-firing hand, stockweld, and butt-to-shoulder...", is there a certain order to do these in? right now, i am: butt-to-shoulder, stockweld (cheekweld you mean?), grip, support hand, elbows, then ass. i added that in because i find myself wiggling it around a bit until i feel like i am squared up.

 

[remr5]

It sounds like an issue with the can as it should not move or wiggle. I put a witness mark on mine so when it's on I know its in the right spot. All the way tight, then backed off one notch. Getting your body straight behind the gun will help you out a lot with recoil management and accuracy. Good luck

 

[Sterling Shooter]

no problem playing along. it is only going to make me better. there is lots of wisdom in your post. very deep for my hillbilly ass. i had to read it a few times, but i get what you are saying. although my recoil management/resistance is much better, i am still up and to the left. at 100yds, maybe 1'. before, it was FEET off. i talking 3-4.

when you said, "...The five factors are: elbows, grip, non-firing hand, stockweld, and butt-to-shoulder...", is there a certain order to do these in? right now, i am: butt-to-shoulder, stockweld (cheekweld you mean?), grip, support hand, elbows, then ass. i added that in because i find myself wiggling it around a bit until i feel like i am squared up.

Yes, there is an order, beginning with bringing the stock to the head; but, perhaps more important right now is the process of executing the two firing tasks:

1. Shoulder the rifle and align eyeball to eyepiece, cognizant of the five factors of a steady position. Do not look at the target so as not to unconsciously steer to it using muscle.
2. Adjust NPA for desired target hold.
3. Pull focus or concentration from target back to reticle.
4. Pull trigger SMOOTHLY.
5. Follow-through.

Since the shooter just becoming knowledgeable of everything important to good shooting may be overwhelmed by it all, and, therefore, forgetful of some of it, processing it all step by step better assures the shooter will process everything important to good shooting.

One more thing, you might want to snap-in and dry fire in a prone position built from bone alone. This will force the non-firing hand to be placed on the stock. In this position recognition of NPA will not be depressed as it may when using the bipod. Thus, you will better understand when muscular relaxation has been realized through proper bone support.

I have a manual I put together about shooting the M4 with as issued irons. It covers basic marksmanship, which could be useful in your quest to get off to a good start. If you want a copy PM me with your email address.

 

[corey4]

that would be awesome. thanks. pm coming!

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Thanks, corey for your candid approach and request for help. Thanks all you others who have contributed to this thread. I have done very little prone shooting, as the range I usually go to forbids it. I do, however, belong to another club with a 1000 yd range, and they have a nice Prone Position Area, which I have yet to use. I appreciate all the detailed information, and will re-read this thread when next I prepare to go to Mifflin County for a shooting session. I will also work on some of this dry-fire at home.
Thanks again, all.