Suppressors Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

srv656s

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I took my 700P with AAC 762SD to the range today. I'd taken it once before and as I shot, I noticed quite a bit of mirage through the scope and towards the end of some strings of fire, some shots were WAY low. I blamed it mostly on myself, the weather was horridly cold and I got to a point where I could hardly feel my trigger finger. I also thought that maybe the mirage was affecting my aim and I've got a T.A.B. SAS - Suppressor Anti-Mirage Shield on order to help with that, not on the rifle yet.

10-18-08-762-SDon700Pside.jpg


Today I went out, and the weather was still pretty cold, but I was determined to run a few rounds through the rifle+suppressor combo before a match I'm shooting in at the end of the month. I shot my first 5 shot group at my normal pace, and noticed my 3rd shot was about .5 MOA low and my 4th was 1 MOA low. I waited between 1 and 2 minutes before shooting the fifth shot, and it was back within 1/4 of my POA.

Before I let the barrel cool down I took a shot at the smaller target at the top of the target and held about .5 MOA high. The shot went low. Again, before the rifle cooled down I aimed at the bottom small target and held exactly 1 MOA high (using an NXS NP-R1 reticle) and hit almost dead center.

IMG_1989.jpg


Range officer called a cease fire, so I changed targets and decided to take a little longer between shots on the next target. I shot 1-4 while taking about twice as long as normal between shots. After the 4th shot, I decided to shoot #5 quickly while the barrel was hot and it was exactly 2 MOA low!

I was pretty irritated, and sat for about 30 seconds, then decided to shoot a couple more on the target on the right. #6 was 1 MOA low and way off to the left, probably my fault. #7 was again 2 MOA low and approximately where #5 was.

IMG_1988.jpg


Range officer called for a cease fire, so I changed targets. I was determined to shoot a decent group and really took my time on the third target. I took a long time between shots 1-5, leaving the bolt open between shots. #4 was a little bit of a flier, probably my fault. I put #5 through the X ring and then aimed at the right target before the rifle could cool off much. I took a good shot on the right target and the shot was 1 MOA low.

IMG_1987.jpg


I'm not one to blame gear for my crappy shooting. I've had off days before, but this was different. I've shot this same rifle many times and have gotten 1/3-1/4 MOA five shot groups on multiple occasions. The rifle's quieter and easier to shoot with the suppressor on, I feel better about the shots I'm taking with the suppressor on, but I'm getting much poorer results.

Here's a target I shot on a different day before I put the suppressor on (both 5 shot groups):
IMG_8946.jpg


I checked the suppressor and mount, and they were on tight, it wasn't loose at all. No baffle strikes, no problems I could see at all.

I'm at a loss, I don't think there's really anything I can do about this. If anyone has a solution, I'm all ears.

Shawn
 

srv656s

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

I'll get in contact with them tomorrow during business hours. Thanks for the responses, I'll update the thread once I talk to them.

Shawn
 

srv656s

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

Nobody answered the phone when I called Monday. I left a message, haven't heard back. I'll call again tomorrow. I've also posted this on Silencertalk and nobody from AAC has responded to the thread.

I'll update as soon as I hear from anyone at AAC.
 

KYS

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

Call and talk to Mike Mers. He will take care of you. He has helped me out a lot. Good luck.

But you do know as your barrel heats up your accuracy will change some right?
 

srv656s

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call and talk to Mike Mers. He will take care of you. He has helped me out a lot. Good luck.

But you do know as your barrel heats up your accuracy will change some right? </div></div>

Mike responded to my thread on silencertalk and plans to call me in the morning. Sounds like he just got my voicemail today. He said he'd talk to engineering about it and I'm hoping we've got some kind of solution tomorrow.

Shawn
 

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

Maybe Silvers will respond to this, I guarantee he has read it.
 

srv656s

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

Spoke with Mike from AAC today, very good guy. AAC's willing to do whatever they can to help me troubleshoot this. I've got GA Precision building me my dream rifle right now, and for now I'm just going to wait to do any troubleshooting until my new rifle is done. New rifle will be done in a month or two, and hopefully on the new rifle, I'll have no problems with POI shifts while using the silencer. If I do then I'll re-engage with AAC, I just don't want to fiddle with the 700P when the new rifle is the one that I really will care about.

I'll update with results from my new rifle when it comes in.

Shawn
 

Phylodog

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

If the rifle doesn't have the problem without the suppressor on there then I wouldn't wait for your new rifle to be finished before having AAC take care of this. Doing so is only going to delay you having everything up and running properly.

If the rifle shoots fine without the suppressor then it ain't the rifle. You can be pretty damned sure that your new rifle will shoot great when you get it, putting this suppressor on there is likely going to give you the same result your getting now.
 

ROGUE7A

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say you need to have a conversation with AAC. </div></div>

Yup.... When I read the title I thought I was gonna see some pencil barrel rifle and attribute it to the barrel loosing ridgeity and drooping from the weight of the can when heated up. But I can see this not the case here.

No flame but I would have bought and OPS INC.

"Buy Quality.... Cry Once"
 

advert

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say you need to have a conversation with AAC. </div></div>

Yup.... When I read the title I thought I was gonna see some pencil barrel rifle and attribute it to the barrel loosing ridgeity and drooping from the weight of the can when heated up. But I can see this not the case here.

No flame but I would have bought and OPS INC.

"Buy Quality.... Cry Once" </div></div>


since when is AAC not quality?

 

ROGUE7A

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: advert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

since when is AAC not quality?

</div></div>

Well there is Craftsman and AAC
and then
There is OPSINC and Snap-on
 

banshee sws

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

ohh, thanks for the education in suppressors


yet another topic , for folks to argue over -

my can is better than your can, ad nausem

this gets old

AAC , opcs inc, surefire, SWR , KAC and others are all top end cans


when you screw a freaking weight (the suppressor) on the end of a barrel , all bets are off, as to what is going to happen

AAC and surefire at least have an indexable solution in their mounts to adjust POI pre suppressed to post suppressed


 

ROGUE7A

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Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> surefire at least have an indexable solution in their mounts to adjust POI pre suppressed to post suppressed </div></div>

Surefire would not have a suppressor program if it were not for Barry Dueck.

Barry Dueck would not have a suppressor program to offer Surefire had he not worked for OPSINC and STOLEN the TDP

Think its not true? Compare surefires M4 can's baffels to OPSINC 15th Model
 

bachelorjack

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    The action needs to be bedded. I realize it has a bedding block already but is it properly torqued down?

    Or you can cut the barrel down making it stiffer.

    You have too much weight on the end of the barrel which is not strong enough to support it. As the metal gets hot it gets softer. The weight moves it downward. As it gets cold and harder again it goes back to its original position.

    That rifle needs a lighter suppressor or a stiffer, barrel/action setup.
     

    Turk

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> surefire at least have an indexable solution in their mounts to adjust POI pre suppressed to post suppressed </div></div>

    Surefire would not have a suppressor program if it were not for Barry Dueck.

    Barry Dueck would not have a suppressor program to offer Surefire had he not worked for OPSINC and STOLEN the TDP

    Think its not true? Compare surefires M4 can's baffels to OPSINC 15th Model </div></div>
    You should research the facts before accusing someone of stealing!
     

    ROGUE7A

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> surefire at least have an indexable solution in their mounts to adjust POI pre suppressed to post suppressed </div></div>

    Surefire would not have a suppressor program if it were not for Barry Dueck.

    Barry Dueck would not have a suppressor program to offer Surefire had he not worked for OPSINC and STOLEN the TDP

    Think its not true? Compare surefires M4 can's baffels to OPSINC 15th Model </div></div>
    You should research the facts before accusing someone of stealing! </div></div>


    Are you fucking serious? Are actually questioning my fucking info? are fucking shitting me internet guy? are you REALLY that fucking stupid?

    Who here stayed with Phil at his daughters home when he had a stroke?

    You?

    Fuck NO My wife and I did to help out

    I think I am i little closer to the fucking epicenter then your fucking ass

    Just because SF uses a QD mount does not foreshadow the fact that the FUCKING BAFFLES (WHICH IS THE TECHNOLOGY) IS A DIRECT FUCKING COPY OF THE FUCKING OPS INC DESIGN.

    If you want to have any further discussions on this haul your fat ass of the couch and take the 27 mile drive from Fairfax to Quantico.

    FUCKING POSER BITCH MOTHER FUCKERS ON HERE

    JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A 2000+ POST COUNT DOESN'T MAKE YOU A FUCKING SME!

    MOST LIKELY IT MEANS YOUR A FUCKING TURD SUCKING DOWN KRISPY KREME'S IN FROMT OF PC AT YOUR MOM'S!

     

    Mo_Zam_Beek

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    For the OP - what is the story on the rifle itself? I (don't know shit about building rifles) am with BachlorJack - if it is a stock stick I can see a whole host of issues (weak anchor of the action, action barrel not square, relationship of action to barrel changes as it heats up) that culminate in the shift as it gets hotter.


    Rogue - I've read this just about everywhere on the net (RE: Surefire / OPS - intellectual property theft). Did OPS ever file a suit? If so, what happened?

    Good luck
     

    Phylodog

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    If the rifle doesn't have the problem without the suppressor then I don't understand how anyone could possibly try to blame the rifle. Looking at the picture of the rifle, that barrel should be more than heavy enough to support the weight of a suppressor through sustained fire. Sure it's going to have a POI shift when the suppressor is on there but this problem isn't from a barrel profile which isn't large enough for the can. Plenty of AR15 barrels which are thinner than this one with suppressors on them which aren't experiencing this problem.

    If I had to guess I'd put my money on the relationship between the QD FH and the suppressor and what they're doing when they heat up. I don't consider it a huge deal, shit happens and I'm sure it'll get resolved.

    Wonder why no one from AAC is addressing this here? Could be of help for someone else who might experience the same issue. I'd be interested in hearing about the solution.
     

    deersniper

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    Yea I am pretty sure someone else (BLACK-X i think) on ar15 or here was having accuracy issues with that exact can. I am glad I didn't buy that can like I originally planned.
     

    JR_V

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    Black-X had issues with a Gemtech can. Also did the rifle group well with the flash hider installed w/o the suppressor?
     

    bachelorjack

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    AAC's website lists the 762SD as 19.1 ounces. Then add on the weight of the mount. That's a lot of weight.

    If a rifle heats up and shots go lower and as it cools shots go up. The metal is getting hot and soft and the weight is pulling down with gravity.

    This is less noticeable when guns are properly bedded and torqued, trued and have stiffer barrels. Short barrels or thicker barrels are stiffer.

    If it was the mount the groups would change in size or shape. Unsuppressed and suppressed POI changes would be the issue. If the gun heats up, starts shooting lower, and returns to cold zero when it is cold, the problem is the bedding, or too much weight too far out.

    Most people don't have the luxury of trying different individual cans on a specific rifle. Nor do they get to try a few identical factory rifles all cut and threaded to the same pitch and lengths. The results are interesting.

    I would first verify proper torque and bedding.
    Then I would chop the barrel down and re thread it.

    Or you can sell the gun and buy a new rifle for it. There isn't anything at all wrong with the rifle. It's just not a perfect combination.

     

    deersniper

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    I think the 762SD is one of the lighter cans. My old Sprectrum-90 wieghs around 32 ounces IIRC. I am not having any problems with the can mounted on a 20" LTR. I am using an AICS though.

    -dan
     

    ROGUE7A

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Rogue - I've read this just about everywhere on the net (RE: Surefire / OPS - intellectual property theft). Did OPS ever file a suit? If so, what happened?

    Good luck </div></div>

    Yes Phil did go after them but the design was changed just so slightly ( 15%: QD and they made the walls thinner) so they got away with it

    Regardless the patenet on the OPS INC has run out and now it can be considered "Prior Art"

    Sorry for taking it off track... again lol

    But to the OP I really don't think it is the rifle and I doubt you are cranking enough rounds out of it in succession to make the barrel heat up and "Droop". It could be a junk can that got asembled with a defect. I don't know about their manufacturing process and if they sub out assemblies in the process. My advice is to have them replace the baffles and look at the metallurgy on the structure of the outter can for defects.
     

    KYS

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    I am going through a similar problem with AAC right now. My suppressor was not finished correctly during the last phase of construction and now I have to send it back to have it put in a lathe and finished properly. They are taking care of the situation properly and I applaud them for CS, but am a little sour that my $1700 can was not finished like it should have been.

    But Im sure in the end AAC will take care of the issue and Ill be back to shooting tight groups!

    OPS Inc makes a hell of a can, Im looking into getting one for a 308 build on a GAP rifle.
     

    1_ar_newbie

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: advert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    since when is AAC not quality?

    </div></div>

    Well there is Craftsman and AAC
    and then
    There is OPSINC and Snap-on</div></div>

    Thanks
    smirk.gif


    I like OPS cans just as much as the next guy... However, I feel this is a very poor analogy.
     

    1_ar_newbie

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Wonder why no one from AAC is addressing this here? Could be of help for someone else who might experience the same issue. I'd be interested in hearing about the solution. </div></div>

    Well, after responding to his emails, calling him at 9PM to talk to him on the phone, and answering his thread on silencer talk I thought I had my bases covered.

    OP, like I told you, if this is AAC's fault (can't say it is without seeing it) we will replace\repair your silencer.

    Guys, if anyone is having a problem with an AAC can let me know I want to fix it.

    Mike Mers
     

    KYS

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    Mike your doing a great job with the customer service!
    I really love your alls products. Keep up the good work. And show my 338LM Titan some lovin
    smile.gif



    Good work AAC
     

    1_ar_newbie

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike your doing a great job with the customer service!
    I really love your alls products. Keep up the good work. And show my 338LM Titan some lovin
    smile.gif



    Good work AAC </div></div>

    Sure will!

    Sorry it had to come back to us...

    I will make it right.
     

    srv656s

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    Just noticed this thread had some recent activity.

    As I'd stated earlier, I spoke with Mike and AAC was willing to help me make the suppressor work with my 700P, but since I'm upgrading to a GAP in the next month or 2, I told them to hold off until I get the new rifle.

    The barrel's 18" and I don't think it's a rigidity problem or a bedding/free float problem. The rifle was bedded by GAP and I've shot it for a year since then with no problem. It's only when the suppressor's on that the shift occurs when everything heats up.

    I'll update everything when I get the new rifle and test it out. I'm hoping it's just some weird combination of ammo+rifle+suppressor that's causing some weird harmonics or something as it heats up. As I said earlier, I don't want to waste a lot of time troubleshooting this when I'm going to be getting a different rifle in the next couple months.

    Thanks

    Shawn
     

    ROGUE7A

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: advert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    since when is AAC not quality?

    </div></div>

    Well there is Craftsman and AAC
    and then
    There is OPSINC and Snap-on</div></div>

    Thanks
    smirk.gif


    I like OPS cans just as much as the next guy... However, I feel this is a very poor analogy.
    </div></div>

    Really now? Well I don't seem to find a post bitching about OPS INC. And I am not gonna get in a pissing match with someone paying the site owner to back him cause some poster "poo poo'd" his kit.

    Al I am saying is for the regular guy AAC is fine. But if certain "Pro Teams" were running sponsor stickers like NASCAR you'd see alot of "OPS Inc" on the "Major Players" the only times I have seen an AAC, Gemtech etc in use were with scouts who had purchased them out of pocket and had them shipped to a depot then sent over. And I KNOW someone is gonna scream "SCAR" but so far I have not even seen a time frame to get THAT fielded let alone when we'll get NETT instruction. In the end I will admit my comments are prejudice because I have been issued OPS Inc cans exclusivly (aside from a dubious flirtation with KAC) and carried them all over. But I can say they have good customer service. I'd bet the OP would not have even got a cal back yet from KAC.
     

    ROGUE7A

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OPS Inc makes a hell of a can, Im looking into getting one for a 308 build on a GAP rifle. </div></div>

    Yeah I would love to have them mod a bolt gun to accept a 12th model but..... I am not to sure about the wait and the fact that I rarely find an off site smith who can stick to a delivery date.
     

    1_ar_newbie

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    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1_ar_newbie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGUE7A</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: advert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    since when is AAC not quality?

    </div></div>

    Well there is Craftsman and AAC
    and then
    There is OPSINC and Snap-on</div></div>

    Thanks
    smirk.gif


    I like OPS cans just as much as the next guy... However, I feel this is a very poor analogy.
    </div></div>

    Really now? Well I don't seem to find a post bitching about OPS INC. And I am not gonna get in a pissing match with someone paying the site owner to back him cause some poster "poo poo'd" his kit.

    Al I am saying is for the regular guy AAC is fine. But if certain "Pro Teams" were running sponsor stickers like NASCAR you'd see alot of "OPS Inc" on the "Major Players" the only times I have seen an AAC, Gemtech etc in use were with scouts who had purchased them out of pocket and had them shipped to a depot then sent over. And I KNOW someone is gonna scream "SCAR" but so far I have not even seen a time frame to get THAT fielded let alone when we'll get NETT instruction. In the end I will admit my comments are prejudice because I have been issued OPS Inc cans exclusivly (aside from a dubious flirtation with KAC) and carried them all over. But I can say they have good customer service. I'd bet the OP would not have even got a cal back yet from KAC.</div></div>

    First off, AAC is not a site sponsor... I post here in my free time.

    Rest assured we have (and do) sell to all the "PRO teams" as you put it.

    Like I said I like OPS can just as much as the next guy. However, there is not one thing on an OPS can that an AAC silencer don't do better. If your going to pay $200 to own the thing why not buy the best?

    304 VS 316
    We use 718 Inconel
    Fully welded core Vs spot welded
    Better mount
    Less flash
    Less weight
    Quiter...

    The list goes on.
     

    long-shot

    Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 6, 2003
    388
    4
    Missouri
    Re: Shots go lower as bbl+suppressor heat up... (p

    I hate to be the one to pull this thread back on topic, but I shot next to this rifle this past weekend. There is nothing wrong with this gun (without suppressor) at all. In fact he beat me so I'm quite confident that the rifle's barrel, bedding, etc are just fine. He did have the suppressor with him and showed me how it connected though. It was an incredibly tight interface. I almost think that the flash suppressor may be making contact with something internal when and only when it heats up. This is definitely a heating problem, and not a vibration or harmonic problem. My recommendation was to loosen the ratcheting mechanism a little and see if the problem persists.