Shoulder won't bump

[nuclear_shooter]

I just annealed some brass (had been fired 3x before annealing) and I started sizing it today, and I'll be damned if I can get the shoulder to bump back. I've got it all the way up to the shell holder and I think sometimes it measures longer than before (probably just the extra lube on the front ). I've used this die before to bump the shoulder back so I don't think its a problem with my die. So two questions. Is this something I should be worried about? Should I anneal them after sizing them? The brass is 300 win mag, Winchester brass.

 

[mdmp5]

Try running it thru the die again and measure once more. I anneal before I size, because I believe it makes sense to soften the brass before work hardening it, not after. Make sure you only lube the case body, not the shoulder, and forget about the necks; they don't have enough surface bearing area to stick.

 

[arnie19]

Are you using the shell holder that is the same make as the die ? Some times one brand is thicker on top and wont let the case go into the die all the way.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

Try running it thru the die again and measure once more. I anneal before I size, because I believe it makes sense to soften the brass before work hardening it, not after. Make sure you only lube the case body, not the shoulder, and forget about the necks; they don't have enough surface bearing area to stick.

I've run one of the pieces up many time. I feel like I'm going nuts.

Are you using the shell holder that is the same make as the die ? Some times one brand is thicker on top and wont let the case go into the die all the way.

Technically no, but like I said, I've used it before with success.

 

[mdmp5]

If I had your setup in front of me, I think I could figure it out. Does the sized brass chamber? What equipment are you using, including comparator? Do you have a SAAMI blank for the datum line on the shoulder?

 

[George63]

easiest solution is take a few thou off the bottom of the die - I F'ed a coax learning this, trying to cam over harder to bump the shoulder

wilson dies come this way

 

[nuclear_shooter]

If I had your setup in front of me, I think I could figure it out. Does the sized brass chamber? What equipment are you using, including comparator? Do you have a SAAMI blank for the datum line on the shoulder?

They chamber even without sizing. RCBS press and shell holder, Redding FL sizer (note S bushing), Hornady comparator .420" (I'll double check in the morning I didn't goof and use the .400 one, but I'm fairly confident).

 

[van462]

Is it possible that the belt is stopping the sizing die before the shoulder.

 

[SPAK]

Any cases feel sticky when you pull the case out of the die?? Any squeaking when the brass comes out when you lower the ram?? If so, you might actually be stretching the case on the way out. What kind of lube are you using??

 

[bigedp51]

easiest solution is take a few thou off the bottom of the die - I F'ed a coax learning this, trying to cam over harder to bump the shoulder

wilson dies come this way

The easiest solution is to take a few thousandths off the top of the "SHELL HOLDER", it is cheaper and simplest method.

 

[bigedp51]

They chamber even without sizing. RCBS press and shell holder, Redding FL sizer (note S bushing), Hornady comparator .420" (I'll double check in the morning I didn't goof and use the .400 one, but I'm fairly confident).

What was the original fired length of the case and how much are you trying to bump the shoulder back. If the cases chamber without any resistance closing the bolt are you sure the shoulder needs to be bumped.

 

[mdmp5]

Any cases feel sticky when you pull the case out of the die?? Any squeaking when the brass comes out when you lower the ram?? If so, you might actually be stretching the case on the way out. What kind of lube are you using??

He ran the brass thru the die more than once, so this is probably not the case. It was the first thing I thought of too.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

Any cases feel sticky when you pull the case out of the die?? Any squeaking when the brass comes out when you lower the ram?? If so, you might actually be stretching the case on the way out. What kind of lube are you using??

Yes actually. It makes a very slight sound. I'm using Imperial wax.

What was the original fired length of the case and how much are you trying to bump the shoulder back. If the cases chamber without any resistance closing the bolt are you sure the shoulder needs to be bumped.

I always bump it back 0.002" just for good measure. It won't be a problem to shoot it if that's what needs to happen.

He ran the brass thru the die more than once, so this is probably not the case. It was the first thing I thought of too.

Is it possible this could happen two or three times? I let the peice sit up there for a few seconds before pulling it out. Is it bad if the shoulders are stretching back?

 

[FLIGHT762]

Are you using a die with a expander ball in? If so, take the expander ball off and resize a case or two without it it and then measure the shoulder. Maybe the shoulders are being pulled back by the expander ball. Are you lubing the inside of the case necks?

One other thing that happens rarely (on die using an expander ball) is having the expander ball / decapping pin set too low in the die and the expander ball is bottoming out into the web of the case and not being able to set the shoulders any further back. It can happen. Check to see. On brass that isn't military primer crimped, the decapping pin needs only to extend out from the bottom of the die about the thickness of two Nickels (coins).

 

[mdmp5]

What Frogman suggested, about the case sticking in the die and ripping the shoulder forward is usually the reason for the phenomenon you are experiencing. There is another thread active right now by a guy with the same issue, and I wrote about it, but for some reason, some guys are telling me that it isn't possible for the case to stick to the die on the way out if it is lubed. This is nonsense. It can happen, and does happen. The solution is to ease the brass into the die a bit at a time, as the resistance decreases. Then upon extraction, the case should come right out, no squeak. Usually if you have sized the brass more than once, the squeak is minimized on the 2nd sizing. But if you are hearing it after sizing it twice, it is indeed possible that you are ripping the shoulder forward.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

What Frogman suggested, about the case sticking in the die and ripping the shoulder forward is usually the reason for the phenomenon you are experiencing. There is another thread active right now by a guy with the same issue, and I wrote about it, but for some reason, some guys are telling me that it isn't possible for the case to stick to the die on the way out if it is lubed. This is nonsense. It can happen, and does happen. The solution is to ease the brass into the die a bit at a time, as the resistance decreases. Then upon extraction, the case should come right out, no squeak. Usually if you have sized the brass more than once, the squeak is minimized on the 2nd sizing. But if you are hearing it after sizing it twice, it is indeed possible that you are ripping the shoulder forward.

Pulled the neck sizing mandrel out and tried easy the brass in real slow and the pulling it out slow. Didn't get a squeak but the shoulder isn't going down. Maybe before I just had a ton of wax which was causing the shoulder to bump. Since it feeds properly, I'm just going to shoot it and see if the shoulder blows out more. I still like to FL size to size the body down.

Incidentally, do any 300 win mag reloaders know how far their brass blows out (head to datum line)? Based on the picture on Wikipedia, the SAAMI spec for the datum line is 2.276" (I just took the average of the top and bottom of the shoulder). Mine are only blown out to 2.270", so maybe that's why they aren't getting sized? FWIW the gun is a 700 Police with stock barrel/chamber.

 

[bigedp51]

nuclear_shooter

There is "NO" datum point for the shoulder location on a belted case, there is only "reference dimensions" this is 2.2791 + .0100

It does not matter what any drawing states, all the matters is the location of your shoulder after the cartridge has been fired. The rimmed and belted design dates back to a time when manufacturing tolerances were very sloppy and shoulder location didn't matter. The British loaded Cordite powder that looked like long spaghetti noodles in their cases, and the powder was put in before the shoulder and neck were formed.

And shoulder location doesn't even matter today....................Below is a brand new unfired Remington .303 British. The case rim is resting on a step inside the Wilson case gauge and the shoulder location is actually over a 1/4 of an inch short of the shoulder of the case gauge.

Now below is the fired length of the case sticking above the Wilson "SAAMI" gauge.

All that matters is the fired length of your case and how far you bump the shoulder back, the reference drawings are SAAMI "guidelines" and are not written in stone.

There is no datum point for shoulder location on a rimmed or belted case, and you will need to play with your dies to find where the shoulder is actually located and not by the die touching the shell holder. (you have .010 to play with)

On many of my older Enfield rifles I fireform the cases by putting a small thin rubber o-ring around the rim to hold the case against the bolt face with American made cases. At maximum military headspace you can have .017 head clearance with the thin rims on American made cases, and also note location of the shoulder of the case below.

Then after fireforming the case will headspace on the shoulder.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

nuclear_shooter

There is "NO" datum point for the shoulder location on a belted case, there is only "reference dimensions" this is 2.2791 + .0100

It does not matter what any drawing states, all the matters is the location of your shoulder after the cartridge has been fired. The rimmed and belted design dates back to a time when manufacturing tolerances were very sloppy and shoulder location didn't matter. The British loaded Cordite powder that looked like long spaghetti noodles in their cases, and the powder was put in before the shoulder and neck were formed.

And shoulder location doesn't even matter today....................Below is a brand new unfired Remington .303 British. The case rim is resting on a step inside the Wilson case gauge and the shoulder location is actually over a 1/4 of an inch short of the shoulder of the case gauge.

Now below is the fired length of the case sticking above the Wilson "SAAMI" gauge.

All that matters is the fired length of your case and how far you bump the shoulder back, the reference drawings are SAAMI "guidelines" and are not written in stone.

There is no datum point for shoulder location on a rimmed or belted case, and you will need to play with your dies to find where the shoulder is actually located and not by the die touching the shell holder. (you have .010 to play with)

On many of my older Enfield rifles I fireform the cases by putting a small thin rubber o-ring around the rim to hold the case against the bolt face with American made cases. At maximum military headspace you can have .017 head clearance with the thin rims on American made cases, and also note location of the shoulder of the case below.

Then after fireforming the case will headspace on the shoulder.

Maybe this is not correct, but couldn't you fireform your brass such that it headspaced off the shoulder and not the belt?

 

[mdmp5]

I believe that is what he was illustrating, except he was using a rimmed case.

 

[SPAK]

Yes. First off, your cases may not even need the shoulders pushed back. You stated the brass chambers without sizing. You might just be overworking the brass. Take a virgin case, measure the distance to the shoulders with a bump guage. Fire it, If it chambers easily, size it but don't push the shoulder back. Fire it again. Repeat this until you have a piece of brass that you can feel resistance when closing the bolt. Measure the case to the shoulders with the same bump gauge. Now Adjust your sizing die to bump the shoulders back .001"-.002" until you just feel the slightest drag of the bolt when closing on the brass. You don't want a lot of resistance but you don't want the bolt to close as if it's an empty chamber.

Measure your case now. This is the dimension you want to size your brass to.

 

[SPAK]

as far as lube, if you're using an expander ball, you need to lube the expander ball or it will Pull on the neck when you lower the ram..If you do this hard enough you can stretch the shoulder out. On the outside of the case, you need to make sure the case body near the base of the case is lubed well. this is where sticking usually happenes. A little bit of lube on the body and maybe the neck. Typically I don't even lube the outside of the neck of my cases unless I'm using a bushing neck die of some sort.

 

[Fuzzball]

Your shoulders won't bump? Yes, they will. But for goodness sake, do NOT screw around with your die or shell holder - if they ever worked they will still work IF you adjust the die right. Just screw your sizer down another 1/16th turn (4.5 thou).

Squeeeks when withdrawing a case from a sizer die is from the expander ball doing it's normal job on necks. And that rarely - if ever - stretches cases at all.

Technical definitations of headspace off datum lines and the differences between rimless, rimmed and belted bottle neck cases are mildly interesting but it's useless trivia to a reloader; headspace is in the chamber and we can't change that. Anyway, your task is to make ammo that properly fits your specific chamber; adjust your sizer so there's a thou or two of clearance between the case shoulder and chamber and you'll be doing perfect work no matter if it's rimmed, belted or not.

 

[SPAK]

I agree with fuzzball, but on the "squeaking" I've had that happen on cases that weren't lubed enough on the body running them into a full length sizer without an expander ball as well. Bottom line, squeaking is an indicator that something needs to be lubed either the case body or the expander.

 

[mdesign]

If your chamber is shorter than your die is cut, you will never get there without either shortening the die or the shell holder. Once you "cam out" on the die adjustment adjusting the die down further is only putting more pressure on the press linkage, you cannot compress the die. I usually choose to take a little off the top of the shell holder, .002 to .003 is all it takes in most cases.

You are not crazy, in such a situation the brass shoulders will usually measure longer after sizing because the die squeezes the sides of the case in slightly so the shoulders bulge up slightly which makes the shoulder dim measure longer. Not uncommon to see growth of .003 to .005. I really doubt if case lube and the expander ball is the issue.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

I don't think the sizer has much more space to go before it jams up on the belt, so I'd probably have to cut that too. I actually got one case stuck trying to tighten it down further than it should go. As I have it set now, the shell holder is just about to touch the die, backed off about 1/8 turn. Still no bump. I really do think the shoulder is just stretching. I'm going to shoot some this coming week, after which I'll see if they blow out farther than they are currently.

 

[OKbow87]

I have had several sets of redding dies that were too long and would not bump the shoulders. I always just bought a spare shell holder and had 10 thousandths surface ground or machined off the top and always left that shell holder in the box with that particular die set. Usually color them with a red sharpie as well for extra insurance not to get them mixed up with a normal shell holder. After this, you can bump the shoulder, set for 1.5 to 2 thousandths bump and rock on.

 

[mdesign]

I have had several sets of redding dies that were too long and would not bump the shoulders. I always just bought a spare shell holder and had 10 thousandths surface ground or machined off the top and always left that shell holder in the box with that particular die set. Usually color them with a red sharpie as well for extra insurance not to get them mixed up with a normal shell holder. After this, you can bump the shoulder, set for 1.5 to 2 thousandths bump and rock on.

^^^this....Had this problem with Redding dies more than any other brand. I've kind of moved to Forster because of this and the fact that Redding discontinued the neck honing service they used to provide.

If you are getting cases stuck in the die then you are not lubing correctly. Never seen a case get stuck in a die because it was adjusted too tightly, it might dent or crush the case. A press has a lot of leverage to apply pressure. Get a can of Hornady spray case lube and start there. A light even coat is all that is needed, too much and you'll get dents in the shoulder area.

 

[Innovative]

When belted magnum handloads don't chamber ......

nuclear_shooter .......
Whenever you find belted magnum handloads fit tight, check out my website. It was originally designed to explain why this happens. Annealing brass has nothing to do with this problem. Factory loads are designed to headspace on the belt. However, handloads need to headspace on the shoulder. It is very common for belted cases to bulge excessively during the reloading process - not in the chamber.

Most shooters are surprised to find that when the shoulder is bumped too far, the case will stretch too much each time it is fired. As a case stretches again and again, the brass becomes paper thin . . . . and case head separations occur. Measure your case diameter just above the belt. That shows how your cases are not being fully resized.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

Well, I shot them again and they're still at 2.270". No sticky bolt.

 

[mdmp5]

nuclear_shooter .......
Whenever you find belted magnum handloads fit tight, check out my website. It was originally designed to explain why this happens. Annealing brass has nothing to do with this problem. Factory loads are designed to headspace on the belt. However, handloads need to headspace on the shoulder.

If you headspace solely off the shoulder, won't there be a gap between the belt and the index point of the chamber, and the bolt won't close? The way I was told years ago, is that letting the brass properly form to chamber dimensions, and the headspacing is still off the belt, but with some shoulder support; not a true headspace off the shoulder.