I always thought it was good because it was designed by leftover WW2 nazi scientists.
Sig P320 Paranoia Setting in.
- Thread starter Ankeny
- Start date
I always thought it was good because it was designed by leftover WW2 nazi scientists.
I agree how many M17 or M18's that all have thumb safeties have UND's?
The only non M17/M18 P320's shown now by SIG are the California versions in 4.7' barrels comes with LCI cuts on the slide /barrel , a Magazine Disconnect and a small grip. So I bought one, retrofitted a non LCI slide and barrel and removed the MD part, added a medium grip, now looking for 1/3 cowitness sights. So far so good, tight groups with Gold Dot 124+P, we will see.
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The marines just asked for an investigation because they had one go off in the holster at a gate. That was M17/18 with a safety. I have read they have had models with the safety discharge. I think the issue is in the sear or striker safety. More than likely tolerance stacking issues or part failures. So far mine has been fine but it doesn't have a high round count yet and it's more of a range toy. I wouldn't carry it concealed because it has the tungsten frame with the additional weights and a big mag well.
I saw this one as well; standing g at Parade Rest , hands clasped behind the back and M18 goes bang.
Update - I did read in my 320 owners manual that the positions of attention and parade rest and the lean and rest are known to make the 320/m18 fire - and they refer us to the part that says do not carry with round in chamber .
That test is not to see if it will go off, it is to see if striker block actually works. If you pull trigger, the trigger bar with deactivate striker safety, so you must be able to drop striker without pulling trigger. The use of a small punch/dental pick is used to push sear down and drop striker. If striker safety plunger is working, it will catch the striker and prevent a discharge. What that video shows is that a decent percentage of sig 320 striker safety plungers fail at holding striker back. In fact there is only a very small amount of material that stops it, like .010-.020". I get it, you like your sig and your emotionally attached. Sig has stepped on their dick with their PR blitz. If you think the 320 is unsafe or dangerous, you're anti-gun, that's their words.
Let me put it this way, if the 320 was soooo great, why did sig completely change everything about it when they introduced the 365? It would have been infinitely easier to just downsize the 320 and make it the 365. Instead they are 100% differently engineered and designed everything, probably cause they knew the 320 was a pile of shit.
SigSauer sliped right into Colts shoes in US military, company that has not made a single weapon design without it ending as s semi finished product ending in massive redesign a recall or two , stuff faling apart ,shoting by it self , but for US military it golden , so one has to ask what kind of retirement package do they offer to the brass
Worry not , your local ex IDF mall ninja has a Sig320 technique he wants to sell you in his firearms class . No more bang from your holstered Sig320
Because anyone watching unfold knew what a sham it was from the begining. Sigusa has been a dumpster fire since it's founding. One fuck up after another. The same guy who ran Kimber into the ground, moved to sig and did the same. They had a well earned reputation from their European guns made in Germany and Switzerland. Sig USA took that reputation, lit it on fire and threw it in a dumpster.
So when all of a sudden sigs winning every contract and rfps are being written specifically toward sigs unique features, anyone with an inkling of experience in the industry and gov knew they were buying contracts. The trials and testing were cooked and skewed in a way to make them favorable. The contracts were written in a way to make it look like sig was a cheaper alternative when really they were more expensive holistically. Not to mention the US military has been using p series sigs( not made in the US), Berettas, Glocks and HKs for decades. All proven battled hardened weapons.
Then we get to see sig parts outsourced to India which is hilarious when they were already shot quality before hand....add in some Tikka masala MIM and where do you think quality is going?
Only morons buy sig products. They are either ignorant to the history or too dumb to care. I call it a stupid tax. When they eventually come back to Glock or HK, having wasted a bunch of money in the process.
Best post so far - yep looks like sig bought the contracts and sig USA quality is not a boot full of piss to their European counterparts.
MIM parts sourced to ShitStreetAstan aka India .
And no one not sig or the government or the sig fans can explain the “don’t carry or use with a loaded chamber “ in the fucking owners manual.
Before Husquvarna chainsaws took a complete shit - they said in their owners manual- Saw will not run hot or dirty .
and how the fuck would one cut wood with a saw that couldn’t get hot or dirty?
I have minimal experience with the striker fired Sig’s however I will say the US version of the P series guns known as the Legion models run great and I haven’t heard of any issues with those pistols.
The P series Legions come with the Gray Guns adjustable trigger from the factory and again from knowledge and experience they are fantastic. Reliable, dependable, and Gray Guns offers a large assortment of accessories if you choose to customize.
And if you click on grey guns in the li k below grey guns will take 10% off your Oder of a bad ass Sig 320 with grey guns trigger and no uncommanded discharge- heavily implied. That’s 10% off grey guns link formerly known as as Gay guns
Thank you for proving my point for me.
The reeee is real.
Take care buttercup.
Had a buddy that did, until.... it ud'ed in his holster shot him in the groin and severed his femoral artery. He got lucky, spent 5 weeks in intensive care at a lvl 1 trauma center and managed to survive... Caveat Emptor
ETA- not even doing crossfit, was on security detail
Do yourself another favor and go find the video showing how a Glock works. It’s impossible for a Glock to go bang without someone pulling the trigger. It has very little to do with the safety trigger as that is only the first of 3 safety mechanism that keep one from firing.I wonder how many people have shot themselves with a Glock "Safety Pistol", and yea, I have an '80s 17L that has "Safety Pistol" right on the box. They were trying to convince American buyers that the trigger safety was enough and you didn't need a manual safety.
I'd venture to say that more people have shot themselves with Glocks than Sigs, but it would be interesting to look at the data if it exists.
I have a 229, and a 360, like them both and would carry them both... The 360, like the G42, is a little big comfortable for pocket carry, and I prefer the LCP MAX.
I don’t carry any gun, even my Glock, pointed at my gun. I want to keep that thing intact till the end of my life and bleeding out due to shooting myself there would be a horrible way to go
I didn’t say that they weren’t mechanically safe. Slow your roll Gfanboi. I said a metric fucktun of people have shot themselves with them, because all three safeties disengage when you pull the trigger. A manual safety is not to protect the shooter from the gun, it’s to protect the shooter from the shooter.
Awesome job ignoring 25 years of problems with us made sigs specifically milled slide versions. The original p series used folded slides which helped build the reputation of sig. Police departments and militaries all over the world used these to great effect. When sigusa launched they eventually start making components here and the move from folded to milled was a cost savings move ( as well as a crutch to slow down slide velocity since us made sigs were way less reliable)
Sigs MO is to rush a product to market and use customers as a beta tester. Right as they start to work out issues gen 2 or a non backwards comparable evolution comes out. Leaving early adopters with worthless junk. Then they abandon the product line for something else. Rinse and repeat. Current p series sigs have 25 years of fuck ups worked out . They are still shit compared to 80s and 90s German sigs from a balance and workmanship perspective.
A manual safety is a placebo for guys that don’t train, and a manual safety is stupid. The amount of people that have shot themselves has zero to do with the pistol and everything to do with no training or stupid training.
I'll admit to owning and liking a P320 X5 Legion. I knew about the questionable drop safety when I bought it, but I'm not prone to dropping my tools so didn't think much of it. I liked, and still do, the modularity and array of factory and aftermarket parts to tinker with (triggers, barrels, grip modules, slides, etc).
With the more recent chatter about the UDs and spontaneous disassembly, I've taken to calling it the P320 X5 IED. But I'm still tempted to keep it and play with it. ArmoryCraft released a milled all-steel grip module that is the same weight as the X5 Legion module, with some additional enhancements such as using replaceable grip panels. I think it'd be fun to try the grip module, KKM barrel, AXG Legion slide w/comp. But now you're an additional $1300+ into a $1000 gun that has clear engineering and manufacturing failures.
For $1700 I could grab an HK USP Expert that's built like a tank and runs like a top.
Sig's response to the whole thing has also been extremely off-putting. Ben Stoeger put out a video called "Sig P320 X5 Review: A sketchy gun from a shady company" and I think that title sums it up really well.
With the more recent chatter about the UDs and spontaneous disassembly, I've taken to calling it the P320 X5 IED. But I'm still tempted to keep it and play with it. ArmoryCraft released a milled all-steel grip module that is the same weight as the X5 Legion module, with some additional enhancements such as using replaceable grip panels. I think it'd be fun to try the grip module, KKM barrel, AXG Legion slide w/comp. But now you're an additional $1300+ into a $1000 gun that has clear engineering and manufacturing failures.
For $1700 I could grab an HK USP Expert that's built like a tank and runs like a top.
Sig's response to the whole thing has also been extremely off-putting. Ben Stoeger put out a video called "Sig P320 X5 Review: A sketchy gun from a shady company" and I think that title sums it up really well.
Nice troll. I suppose replying is a sign that I took the bait? Oh, wait a minute. This is the pit. Maybe you are just an ass hat?
Take any 2011 with a 1-2lbs trigger, lower the safety and drop it on the ground from 3ft up with a round in the chamber. Then tell me it's safer to carry than a P320.
Drop safe is a requirement for the military and virtually all police departments. A 2011 has nothing to do with this.
They either lied about the drop testing or (most likely) didnt perform the testing and pencil whipped it.
Glock was beating Sig in the MHS trials so they halted the testing and said good enough, and then awarded based on LPTA.
People should be in jail for that but those 6 figure retirement jobs are tempting.
They either lied about the drop testing or (most likely) didnt perform the testing and pencil whipped it.
Glock was beating Sig in the MHS trials so they halted the testing and said good enough, and then awarded based on LPTA.
People should be in jail for that but those 6 figure retirement jobs are tempting.
Sig Mastershop was located in Eckenforde, Germany (Europe) not the USA. The Sig Mastershop was closed along with Sig Germany in December 2020 as they went out of business & are no longer operational.
So what is your opinion on Walther?
I started being interested in them about the same time I stopped liking the Sig P320 and similar lines.
My Walther says Made in Germany. Can be seen in pictures up thread (in front of black take down).
It's like climate change and green energy. IYKYK
You're either a subscriber to the hype or you're not, regardless of whether or not you own one.
Haven't kept up with Sig's response but that's a good honest video. There are definitely other guns I'd buy for race guns or competition.
This is undeniable. Sadly it is also true for so many other products, not just firearms.
Walther makes good guns. I am not a fan of them personally, moreso for the aesthetics and availability. Parts, mags, holsters and aftermarket are severely lacking. You can get a very similar gun (VP9) with much better support and aftermarket. I have ran VP9s hard for about 10 years and have no regrets. They are very well made, easy to shoot and reliable guns. No other hard use striker 9mm has surpassed it yet IMO.
Did the guy at the gun store tell you that?
Irony in this is at the time, Unit SOP was to drop hammer on a clear gun. You cannot put the weapon on safe with the hammer down so it was left on fire. Delta had different SOP than the rangers. They would carry condition 3 on base so all you had to do was charge the weapon and you were ready to fire. The ranger who challenged him was portrayed by Jason Issacs, but was supposed to be Capt Steele.
I worked with Capt Steele (he was a COL at the time in 05/06 with the 101st) for a few weeks, helping to haul their brigades shit from Kuwait to Iraq. My unit was the transpo and gun trucks. Great guy.
Funny story. We were at camp beuring in middle of the desert for about 2 weeks waiting for the mission to come down. We we not told until the night before we were moving out. So my unit was stuck in shitty transit tents for half a month waiting for the go. Our shower trailers were fucking NASTY, broken and hot. We were downright funky Right next to us they had build actual barracks with real showers, that just so happened to be housed by the 101st. So a couple of us grabbed our shit and went over there to take a shower. Some dickhead NCO challenged us and told us to fuck off. We finished up and left. In the leadership meeting our convoy commander (an E6) brought this up to COL Steel and be became livid. Went off on his unit and told them we were more than welcome to go there anytime. So all 15 of us grabbed our shit and walked over there and took nice like 1 hr showers in front of the dickheads everyday.
The night before we left one of my favorite bands at the time (crossfade) was playing at camp buering. So I got to see a live show right before we stepped off. My grandfather died the same day and I got a red cross message, so I wont ever forget it.
I ended up eating a huge IED in the turret of a guntruck on the way back. Got very very lucky.
Fun 3 weeks.
Ok story time over, back to shitting on Sig.
I actually really appreciate this side-track. I re-watched Blackhawk Down a few weeks ago and was wondering how Col. Steele was thought of by men under his command.
I get that the movie didn't portray him well, or that's common belief, but I saw him as a standup guy and a solid warfighter doing his best to keep his Rangers in inline and alive.
I read a bit more about him afterwards and it reinforced my thoughts. Col. Steele seemed like a Ranger's Ranger.
Just my half a penny from someone who didn't serve. Thanks for the personal account.
As far as I remember he was beloved. He was a hard charging meat eater. You don't become a company commander in ranger regiment without being squared the fuck away and the top amongst your peers.
I do remember reading years later he was charged for kill boards and other shit. Made me like the guy even more. Send meat eaters to kill the enemy and then bitch when they do exactly what they are trained and told to do.
As far as I'm concerned, he is an American patriot and hero.
I do remember reading years later he was charged for kill boards and other shit. Made me like the guy even more. Send meat eaters to kill the enemy and then bitch when they do exactly what they are trained and told to do.
As far as I'm concerned, he is an American patriot and hero.
Randall is a good gunsmith, so this is stolen from another site, I am privileged to have had Tim La France having done my 1911 CC carry and Randall's explanation makes sense to me as a 1911 guy. Sure looks like the P320 thumb safety needs to bear against the sear like the P365, having dinner tonight with MSTN and will ask him his take.
Begin Stolen explanation,
Begin Paste
"Due to the nanny-rule against the word C-O-C-K, the little
appears a lot below in my technical explanation:
If we used the Glock safe action as the "standard" to compare against, the reason the P320 is so sensitive to going off is that the striker is fullyed at rest.
Glock strikers are only partiallyed (to the point that if they DID slip off the trigger bar and fly forward), the striker does not have enough stored energy in them to reliably set off a primer.
The vast majority of striker fired guns work much the same way in that the striker is not fullyed until the trigger is pulled.
The act of pulling the trigger also includes finishing pulling the striker back and storing more energy into the striker spring just before it's released.
Because of this, it's not possible to make the trigger pull of most striker fired pistols as good as a hammer fired pistol.
This method of safety has worked well for Glock and the other striker fired derivatives on the market.
The striker being fullyed means that all it takes to fire is for the sear to release the striker.
By eliminating that (Glock) safety step of having to pull the striker back the rest of the way to fully energize the striker spring, the Sig trigger pull is more like a hammer fired pistol such as a 1911.
That better trigger pull is WHY the P320 is so well liked over the longer/heavier (safer) trigger pull of the Glock.
So what you have in a P320 (without out a manual safety) is basically aed and unlocked 1911.
Do you know anyone that would carry a 1911 loaded,ed and unlocked?
I don't.
In competition, we all start with a loaded chamber, hammered and the manual safety engaged.
In the 1911 design, the manual thumb safety directly blocks the sear so that the sear can not move until the manual safety is disengaged.
In the P320 design, the manual safety does NOT block the sear from moving.
This is the primary issue I see with the P320 design, especially when you do not have a manual safety to keep the trigger bar OR the sear from moving.
The P320 manual safety blocks the trigger bar from moving and disconnects the trigger bar from the sear.
So because only the sear springs are keeping the strikered when the manual safety is engaged, it only takes a good jarring to cause the sear to release the striker.
This amount of jarring required for the sear to release changes by using non-standard parts such as reduced power sear springs or aftermarket sears.
There are other safety features in the P320 design to keep the striker from falling when the trigger is not pulled, but these safeties can be nullified when you introduce adjustable triggers or trigger bars to further reduce trigger travel and keep the trigger in a perpetually-pulled state which is bypassing the striker safety to make the trigger pull even shorter.
You might point out that the P365 striker is also fullyed but P365's do not randomly fire.
This is possibly because the P365 is newer and not as widely adopted into service pistol roles like the P320 so there are simply fewer chances for them to malfunction.
Also, there is a very important difference between the P320 and the P365 manual safeties.
The manual safety on a P365 directly bears on the sear just like a 1911."
End Paste
Begin Stolen explanation,
Begin Paste
"Due to the nanny-rule against the word C-O-C-K, the little
appears a lot below in my technical explanation:If we used the Glock safe action as the "standard" to compare against, the reason the P320 is so sensitive to going off is that the striker is fully
ed at rest.Glock strikers are only partially
ed (to the point that if they DID slip off the trigger bar and fly forward), the striker does not have enough stored energy in them to reliably set off a primer.The vast majority of striker fired guns work much the same way in that the striker is not fully
ed until the trigger is pulled.The act of pulling the trigger also includes finishing pulling the striker back and storing more energy into the striker spring just before it's released.
Because of this, it's not possible to make the trigger pull of most striker fired pistols as good as a hammer fired pistol.
This method of safety has worked well for Glock and the other striker fired derivatives on the market.
The striker being fully
ed means that all it takes to fire is for the sear to release the striker.By eliminating that (Glock) safety step of having to pull the striker back the rest of the way to fully energize the striker spring, the Sig trigger pull is more like a hammer fired pistol such as a 1911.
That better trigger pull is WHY the P320 is so well liked over the longer/heavier (safer) trigger pull of the Glock.
So what you have in a P320 (without out a manual safety) is basically a
ed and unlocked 1911.Do you know anyone that would carry a 1911 loaded,
ed and unlocked?I don't.
In competition, we all start with a loaded chamber, hammer
ed and the manual safety engaged.In the 1911 design, the manual thumb safety directly blocks the sear so that the sear can not move until the manual safety is disengaged.
In the P320 design, the manual safety does NOT block the sear from moving.
This is the primary issue I see with the P320 design, especially when you do not have a manual safety to keep the trigger bar OR the sear from moving.
The P320 manual safety blocks the trigger bar from moving and disconnects the trigger bar from the sear.
So because only the sear springs are keeping the striker
ed when the manual safety is engaged, it only takes a good jarring to cause the sear to release the striker.This amount of jarring required for the sear to release changes by using non-standard parts such as reduced power sear springs or aftermarket sears.
There are other safety features in the P320 design to keep the striker from falling when the trigger is not pulled, but these safeties can be nullified when you introduce adjustable triggers or trigger bars to further reduce trigger travel and keep the trigger in a perpetually-pulled state which is bypassing the striker safety to make the trigger pull even shorter.
You might point out that the P365 striker is also fully
ed but P365's do not randomly fire.This is possibly because the P365 is newer and not as widely adopted into service pistol roles like the P320 so there are simply fewer chances for them to malfunction.
Also, there is a very important difference between the P320 and the P365 manual safeties.
The manual safety on a P365 directly bears on the sear just like a 1911."
End Paste
So essentially in the P365 (manual safety) it seems Sig understood the "P320 problem" and quietly put a proper actual real working safety into the manual safety versions?
Which might be a reason to pick the Safety versions of the P365 over the standard versions.
But the Safety on the P320 MS / M17 / M18 essentially doesn't do anything but keep you from actually pulling the trigger.
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